Blasphemy

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Sir, we are concerned about your state! Can you please tell us who has accused you of doing all these things ?

``I am alleged to have helped sadam Qadaffi supplied chem and running around
going to mosques and prostitutes under the influence of alcohol all at the same
time. ``

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#237 by Mantolives on May 3, 2004 9:03am PT

I hope that comment was not made with a patronizing tone! You know my reply to that.

``definitely not a Pakistani``

~~Asked whether he would like to identify himself as an Englishman, Indian or a
Pakistani, he said well definitely not a Pakistani. Many of the people of
Indian origin in england see ourselves as having a plural identity. The
concept of British-Indian identity is quite well established.

He recalled that his Muslim parents, who were residents of Ballimaran area in
old Delhi, had decided against moving to Pakistan at the time of partition of
India and instead shifted to Mumbai.

Rushdie was particularly critical of a Pakistani film made on him after the
Iranian fatwa and said he had been portrayed in an absolutely defamatory
manner as a murderer, torturer, sadist and drunkard.~~

http://www.media-watch.org/articles/0400/177.html

Ballu,

I agree with what you are saying ....

I disagree with your claim about me abusing you... its the other way around... Maybe you should realize who your allies are.

#233 by Mantolives on May 1, 2004 9:28am PT

Best of luck with your efforts- but it may be a long battle for you in Pakistan. Do join and consolidate the movements to secularize Pakistan and avoid wasting efforts in fighting those who are infact your strategic partners in secularizing Pakistan. (You wasted almost 50 posts in abusing me- it was just a sheer waste of time and energy). But you should draw up the bounderies clearly enough on how much of the Political constitution and its laws have to cohere with the Islamic Laws - it is this confusion that made the mullahs appear as the real `interpreters` of the constitution itself because only they can `align` the civil laws with Islamic law.

Salaam Alaikum!

Dear, Mantolives

Now that you put it that way, I understand and totally agree with you. Hopefully they will come to understand that one can agree to disagree.

Hakim

Salaam Alaikum!

Dear, Mantolives

Now that you put it that way, I understand and totally agree with you. Hopefully they will come to understand that one can agree to disagree.

Hakim

Dear Ballu

Since you have atleast put up one post without resorting to personal insults I will respond with what my view is. Be patient and read through the whole thing.

TNT is completely irrelevant in Pakistan today atleast as far as people like me are concerned... I am neither against TNT nor for it. I look at it in its proper historical context... TNT was merely an issue of imagined identity, nor did it presuppose that Hindus and Muslims can`t live together. Pakistan came into being as a result of a conglomerate of different interests and they were expressed vaguely in form of the Lahore Resolution. It was hardly as simple as TNT= Pakistan. Rather it was couched in those terms when the real demand embodied both the tension between the center and provinces, class conflict, and constitutional solution. TNT rang true only for the muslims in the UP ... and not for the Muslims in the Muslim majority areas, yet the demand for a separate state was visible more so in the Muslim Majority areas thus forcing the Muslim League to radically alter its strategy. KK Aziz counts more than 100 different schemes between 1890 to 1947 of a separate state in the North West of India. Some of them were communal, others were ethnic, others still were economic...


You are right that the state curriculum is responsible for the brainwashing ... this is more of a product of post 1979 ideology... which is wrong and has no justification for in history. What happened in the 1980s was a deliberate attempt to take it beyond even the spectrum of the two nation theory which in of itself is merely a subset of the real truth. The lies taught to our children in the 1980s sought to instill in them the spirit of the Islamic state that was Zia`s method of justifying his illegal military rule.

It was all for nothing that Mr Younus Sheikh was put through hell on earth.

The above-mentioned Brig. Shaukat Qadir now says:

`` It is wrong to aver that Pakistan had any ‘Kashmir’ or ‘Afghan’ policies. Policies are formulated to achieve an objective, a purpose. Neither of the two had an end or purpose in sight; they were open-ended. They had become an end unto themselves.``

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_1-5-2004_pg3_4

Dear knowledge123,

That was clearly not my intention (i.e. to start a pithy side dialogue). However it seems that everything to some people becomes a match to prove a point... and then when they fail at it they use personal insults. This is nothing new and we are all used to it on Chowk now.
According to them `determined opposition` is one that can most effectively deviate the course of discussion into the most pathetic match of personal insults.

I am yet to hear anything relevant from them which actually questions my allegedly `long held beliefs` and `ideas` . All I have heard is a bunch of hoo haa about TNT, and a number of insults.


Ah.... The pleasures of cyber space...

My Country - Right or Wrong
When Right ... continue to keep it right
When wrong... Make it right

#226 by PunjabiZulu on April 30, 2004 4:02pm PT
For somebody who claims not to represent the classical TNT-ist it is surprising to find him getting agitated the moment any criticism of TNT is made on this board.
As long as one is trying to replace the classical understanding of TNT with a secular understanding and as a ``cultural minority movement`` or ``a product of political stalemate between congress and ML`` it is politically correct since he is infact stregnthening the hands of the secularists in Pakistan by providing an alternative secular justification for PAkistan so that it can re-affirm its whatever secular groundings was envisaged by Jinnah. But there appears to be a long way before Pakistan can even attempt such a replacement of the classical TNT in the minds of those citizens who have already been brainwashed with the state`s curriculum on Pakistan Studies.

Salaam Alaikum!

Sadly, the latest string of posts seem to deviate from the intended topic–inconsiderably. Can we keep on the focus rather than have these pithy side dialogues, please!?


Hakim

Nothing in my posts was offensive to you yet you chose to demean yourself. That you have taken this tone is simply an indication of the poison in your mind.

We will let the people decide who is what.

Mantolives

I didnt read your post because you are a tedious pedantic crybaby and I have nothing to add to my earlier posts and I always stay away from mad barking dogs because they are dangerous and often bite.

Punjabi Zulu,


I am rather disappointed by your deliberate usage of personal insults. I suppose when you have no argument this is what you stoop to.

In any event

1) I have read the article and the quote that you are putting up does not prove your assertion. It is because you are so obsessed with TNT that you are unable to see what I have been trying to say. Salman Rushdie doesn`t mention the TNT in any of his writings. His understanding of partition is roughly the same as Ayesha Jalal/Anil Seal which is also my understanding.


2) The quotes I posted directly from the book Shame in post 222 render your claim that the novel is a vicious attack on Pakistan fictitious.


{ 222 by Mantolives on April 30, 2004 10:51am PT


Salman Rushdie on Pakistan

In Shame on Page 266 Salman Rushdie writes:

``In Pakistan, fundamentalism doesn`t spring from the people.... Jamaat-e-Islami have their supporters among college students and so forth, but relatively few people have ever voted Jamaat in an election. Jinnah himself, the Founder or Quaid-i-Azam, doesn`t strike me as a particularly God-bothered type. Islam and the Muslim State were for him cultural ideas.... Theology was just not the point ``

Salman Rushdie also has a deep and emotional connection with Pakistan... his entire family lives in Pakistan in Karachi... at one he compares Pakistan to his sister:

``My sister is a Pakistani citizen. On my good days, I think of her as Pakistan, and then ... slices, the same way as I have learned my growing sister.`` Page 66 }



3) Salman Rushdie`s bit on Gandhi was to show simply what Rushdie`s view on partition is.



.... By deliberately ignoring the quotes that go against your assertions and stooping to personal insults you have only shown me that you are not capable of decent discourse. That whenever someone disagrees with you, much like Ballu and Alephnull , you take to personal insults.


Regards

YLH

Mantolives

Pop a valium you paranoid crybaby. You seem to be hunting demons that dont exist. I couldnt give a flying fook about what Rushdies views on Gandhi are. Someone disagrees with you and you say they havent read the books? I read them when you were in diapers.

Once again, read what Rushdie says:

~~I hate the way in which we, Indians and Pakistanis, have become each other`s others, each seeing the other as it were through a glass, darkly, each ascribing to the other the worst motives and the sneakiest natures. I hate it, but in the last analysis I`m on the Indian side.~~


http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,12084,844620,00.html

Yes, he views the TNT as the inverse of the RSS nationalism he battles today. Deal with it and dont wet your pants about it.

Salman Rushdie on Pakistan


In Shame on Page 266 Salman Rushdie writes:


In Pakistan, fundamentalism doesn`t spring from the people.... Jamaat-e-Islami have their supporters among college students and so forth, but relatively few people have ever voted Jamaat in an election. Jinnah himself, the Founder or Quaid-i-Azam, doesn`t strike me as a particularly God-bothered type. Islam and the Muslim State were for him cultural ideas.... Theology was just not the point


Salman Rushdie also has a deep and emotional connection with Pakistan... his entire family lives in Pakistan in Karachi... at one he compares Pakistan to his sister:


My sister is a Pakistani citizen. On my good days, I think of her as Pakistan, and then ... slices, the same way as I have learned my growing sister. Page 66


How does it equate to his view of the Hindu nationalists in India... clearly Ballu Khan and Punjabi Zulu are superimposing their own views on Rushdie.



Punjabi Zulu

First of all ... there is absolutely no need to use personal insults just to prove a point. My reference is to the arrogant sarcastic tone you`ve used in your post. Why must every Indian stoop to this... I don`t think you are reading my posts ... You know what a strawman fallacy is ? That is exactly what you are doing to me. You deconstructing an argument I am just not putting up. Just like Ballu Khan is defending his poor thesis by calling me a TNT-Islamist (I am neither a tntist nor an Islamist) ... My view is that you haven`t read either of the two books (both of which I read as part of my seminar course in college) you are talking of or you are just being arrogant by assuming such arguments on my part... you can choose to interpret Rushdie`s view of Pakistan as you please... I quoted right out of the book itself unlike you... that doesn`t mean that what you are saying is necessarily untrue... but his understanding of partition is quite different from you are claiming... I didn`t write `Does India exist` Salman Rushdie did.... I didn`t write `Imagined Homelands` Salman Rushdie did. Salman Rushdie`s understanding of partition is not based on `deconstructing the two nation theory`.... I challenge you to bring up one piece of writing where he mentions the two nation theory. He understands partition as a product of political deadlock between two major political parties Congress and the League... in this he is clearly using the arguments used by the Cambridge Historians like Anil Seal and Ayesha Jalal, which is the argument I put up routinely here on chowk.


I quoted page 255 of the Alfred Knopf Publication of Shame ... though proudly identifying as an Indian, he clearly doesn`t seem to share your contempt for Pakistan.. his critique of Pakistan is more of a critique of Pakistan... similarly he blames partition on Gandhi .... and not on Jinnah whose actions he justifies on a number of occasions.


yet his failure to keep the Muslim leader Mohammed Ali Jinnah within the Indian National Congress`s fold led to the partition of the country. (For all his vaunted selflessness and modesty, he made no move to object when Jinnah was attacked during a Congress session for calling him ``Mr. Gandhi`` instead of ``Mahatma,`` and booed off the stage by Gandhi`s supporters. Later, his withdrawal, under pressure from Jawaharlal Nehru and Vallabhbhai Patel, of a last-ditch offer to Jinnah of the prime ministership itself, ended the last faint chance of avoiding partition.)


http://www.time.com/time/time100/leaders/profile/gandhi3.html

(Should I know say that you should read the time article to `learn a thing or two`?)

212

eloquent pettiness perhaps?

#218 by PunjabiZulu on April 28, 2004 9:12am PT
Agreed !

#219 by solitude on April 28, 2004 11:28am PT
Will do.

Ballu etc. thanks everyone for signing the petition :)

Here is the link again and please send it to your friends so they may participate too.

http://www.petitiononline.com/UN_FREE/petition.html

or click here

ballukhan

Rushdie is despised by many people simultaneously. He is despised by extremist Hindus for being a Muslim and not only being a Muslim but a Muslim that is deeply, hopelessly, helplessly infatuated and IN LOVE with India in all its diversity and textures. His work is suffused in Hindu tropes and mythology and archetypes and he considers these mythologies and archetypes to belong to him as much as they do to any Hindu. On the other hand, some Pakistanis view him as a Hindu house nigger, as they view any Muslim in India who does not slavishly follow their ideology: as a stupid idiot who has sold his soul to the kaffirs and is a mixture of savant and coward. These are the type that gloat at Gujarat and are happy that their ideology and predictions are fulfilled.

But Rushdie says: Screw them and screw the Hindutvadis. I will not give an inch in my right and identity as an Indian just because I happen to be a Muslim. As such his stance and work is a strong corrective to those two narratives that pull at the Muslim in India: The TNT and the RSS modes. He stands firm and proud and unapologetic, he asserts that the Indian essentialism is the miscegenation and tolerance and diversity of which he comes from, and he says that from the standpoint of a man whose family still lives in Pakistan and who has lived in Pakistan.

Rushdie holds a mirror up to India and does not flinch. He shows the ugliness, the fascism and pogrom and cruelty. But he does not bundle this into contempt for India, rather it is outrage at the abuse of the thing he loves.

Rushdie is unsettling for the reductive people who seek a polarisation of identities. He is a Muslim who reveres and loves the mythologies of Hinduism (for which a TNTist will call him, like he might call you, a “hindutvati house nigger”), he is a man sensitive to the heritage of Islam and its interweaving with the Indian texture (For whom Mr Naipaul and his sympathisers become grumpy), he has written about Christianity, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Sikhism and every manifestation and plural life and breath of India and all in all he is the insider-outsider who has chronicled India most truly for the last twenty five years.

Long may he live and write.

#214 by PunjabiZulu on April 27, 2004 12:09pm PT

``....they both assert that plurality is not possible within Indian society.``

That is exactly the basis of TNT. See, the logic that has been pushed in the past by ML and its leaders has been that there are ``irreconciable`` differences between the Muslims and Hindus in terms of culture, religious practices, language etc. etc. (That is why some moron wants to call it a minority movement).
But, anyone who has lived in India knows that the differences between the Kannadiga-Vokkaliga and Kannadiga-Ienger are as severe as the diffeences between Bihari Santhals and the AP Kammas. The differences between the Buddhists and the Kaul Shaivas are even more severe ``religious-wise``. Any body who has a good grasp of the sub-continent religions and its sub-religions and the linguistic entities can appreciate that they have differences which can be termed as severe or as trivial as any enterprising politician can make them out to be.
It was really unfortunate, that the enterprising ones in our community were able to sell this idea of ``irreconciable differences`` in various forums post 1940 - that these ``differences`` were severe enough to lead to a situation where the ``common-interests`` of the muslim community would be severely compromised and hence the need to segregate themselves from the non-muslims- the homeland was imaginary one , but the imagery used were historical, religious and real ones. Ask any Pakistani whether he is living in an imagined nationhood which arose out of the discourse of Jinnah and the ML- he would snub you!
Infact, I would gladly accept this position that the PAkistani nation was constructed in the discourses of Jinnah and ML. This makes it even easier for me to demolish TNT by simply de-constructing the ML discourse.
Anyone who understands the logic of communal, linguistic or other riots in India would clearly understand that the ``politics of polariztion`` and the old strategy of ``divide and rule`` is cleverly being worked by those who control such riots in the communities.
And after 50 years of partition the Pakistani elites are unhappy to see that their predictions of doomsday for IM is a clear refutation of their TNT. And everybody knows the reality of their jannat that they have created for themselves!!............Dil behlane ke liye bhi yeh khayal accha hai!!

214 by PunjabiZulu on April 27, 2004 12:09pm PT

``....they both assert that plurality is not possible within Indian society.``

Have you wondered why some Paki Elites have been so assured in their predictions about breakup of India??

It is this TNT again.

I entirely agree with Dr. Yunus and condemn the mulla gardi being purpetrated in the name of `Namoose Rasaalat` and thus blaspheme against the very concept of `Rehmatulaalimeen`to further their personal nefarious designs. I however wonder why people don`t understand that the Blasphemy law is only a milder manifestation of the lynch law laid down in some traditions and being practiced in violation of the law and the human rights, etc. Humanity is helpless against this Ilamdeeni culture which defies any law whatsoever when in the grip of fanaticism. I again reproduce a Hadees which is considered to be the basis of the B. L. though the Hadees itself is cosidered to be the supreme law by those who murder even those who are aquitted by the courts under the B.L.: -

Sunnan Abudawud
Book 38, Number 4348:
Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:
A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was informed about it.
He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.
He sat before the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.
Thereupon the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood.

So please ponder what you are up against. So B.L. or no B.L. people will continue to be lynched by the fanatics or pseudo fanatics in the name of `Namoose Rasaalat` and become heroes.

Mantolives

This is what Salman Rushdie himself says about where he belongs:

~~I hate the way in which we, Indians and Pakistanis, have become each other`s others, each seeing the other as it were through a glass, darkly, each ascribing to the other the worst motives and the sneakiest natures. I hate it, but in the last analysis I`m on the Indian side.~~


http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,12084,844620,00.html


Mantolives, you really do not have a clue about Rushdies sensibility, do you? What are you talking about ``one nation`` theory?

He oppsoses the TNT for the same reason he opposes the Hindu Nationalism of today; because they both assert that plurality is not possible within Indian society.

Midnights Children is an affirmation of the idea of India, Shame is a corruscating satire on the feudal exclusivist soul of Pakistan.

Read the whole of the Guardian article, you might learn something.

Solitude:
Glad to see YLH and his family signing the petition finally after your intervention .

Manto #209, #210

So you claim that your positions have ‘evolved’ from your ylh days, do you? Your enduring core of intolerance, of absolute inability to brook disagreement, has not gone, has if anything only solidified. Behind a veneer of ‘education’, you are as incapable of handling those who blaspheme against your priceless religion and your precious prophet as the most fatwaholic mullah invoking gustakh-e-rasool. The superficials may differ, the essence is the same. Your pathetic excuse of ‘always reacting never initiating’ makes its appearance for the nth time and doesn’t impress me one iota. You were just the same three years ago and will not be permitted to live down your risible past record so easily. It’s easy to be suave when your most dearly held beliefs are not under attack. It’s how you behave when you encounter determined opposition that counts. Whining about ‘hate speech’, calling down the local equivalent of blasphemy on your adversaries, excoriating them with the choicest abuses, and then feigning Injured Innocence Unfairly Attacked, makes you cut a very sorry figure. You are a fine example indeed of Pakistani secularism and democracy in action.

And don’t give me that bilge about taking on arguments on merits. I’m only too aware of the limitations of your method and the way in which you run out of steam when those glowing personal testimonials or quotes from Wolpert, Bolitho, Dr. Ajit Javed Singh, Sarojini Naidu, Bandhopadhyaya, Khushwant Singh, Beverly Nichols(!), Churchill(!!), A.G. Noorani etc. etc. ad amusem fail to make any impression on those who question the fundamentals of TNT.

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Thankyou Teshah. I agree.

Alephnull

Unlike some Indians on these boards I have moved on from my previous positions... evolution, living and learning, etc whatever I had said 3 years ago is another story.... Have you seen me being disrespectful here? Even in my YLH avtar I was always reacting never initiating.

The fact is that you can`t take on the arguments on their merit, so you choose to indulge in personal attacks.

What is all this childish discussion irrelevant to the topic? I would request all chowkies to please avoid all loose talk and personal attacks and be serious and relevant to the topic under discussion.

Dear Punjabi Zulu ...


Did you really read my previous post?

Yes he does call himself Indian... he was born and raised there till age 16. Yet I have read his book Shame many times... and I love it. It is not a vicious work on Pakistan as you allege... you see great writers don`t work like that. In my last post I quoted from the book itself. Shame is no more vicious about Pakistan then Midnight`s Children is about India. Have you read any of them?


``chooses to call himslef Indian, to write about India, to place himself firmly within the secular conception of the Indian state and the Indian civilisation.``

Actually this my dear friend is not true.... read his book Imaginary Homelands ... read especially the article Does India Exist

To Salman Rushdie the conception of Indian civilization and the One Nation thesis is as an imaginary a concept as the two nation theory.... that doesn`t mean that either of these are fiction. So your statement is only as true as if one was to suggest that Salman Rushdie is a believer in the two nation theory. Ofcourse he is a secularist, but like most secularists he too views the modern avtar of religious nationalism i.e. religious multiculturalism with suspicion.


Like I said lets not project our own ideas on others.

Manto #196

{{Like I said I don`t have time to waste on people who condone bigotry.}}

So, despite your assertion in #187 that you had ‘no more words and time to waste’ on me, you just couldn’t resist another go, could you my lovely? I expected this. Absolutely in character.

{{Unlike your loveable posts none of my posts were intended to belittle someone else.}}

Who cares what you claim your intent was? And puhleaze … just who do you think you are fooling with your air of injured innocence? You have a loong history on Chowk in your YLH incarnation – several thousands posts worth, many nothing if not frank about your activities. Some of us who have been posting or lurking for years remember your antics very well. To begin with, you don’t brook dissent with your opinions outside very narrow limits. You just can’t handle determined opposition. When you encounter people who seen through you, your religion, and your prophet, and say so in no uncertain terms – you go ballistic in familiar fashion as you are beginning to do now. It is the mentality that lies at the heart of the concept of blasphemy. In the past you were treated with considerable indulgence on account of your youth. Isn’t it time you grew up and stopped throwing tantrums like a spoilt brat?

{{Satisfied? Now give yourself a rest.}}

Nice attempt at patronizing me, but if you were hoping to head me off, that’s not good enough. Neither that or the silly remark about ‘bigotry’ will prevent me from skewering your priceless opinions whenever the spirit moves me.

Mantolives

Rushdie rejects it in the most profound way possible...he chooses to call himslef Indian, to write about India, to place himself firmly within the secular conception of the Indian state and the Indian civilisation. Shame is a vicious work about Pakistan.

Another brilliant argument by Ballu Khan... after all I am no match for such brilliant and reasonable intellectual discussion:

Post 99 from Dost Mittar board:


You are uncouth and un-civilized to get into a reasonable intellectual discussion. You are not properly educated which I can very well see from your grasp of various issues on various other issues and topics on Chowk. You have no idea about culture or literature - you cannot tell a $hit of difference between Khayal and Dhrupad music- not to talk about various art forms and sub-cultures of Indian sub-continent. You are pi$$ing all over the board just because I have pulverized your reading of the frking TNT as a stupid minority movement



I thank him for showing me the light... now will he please answer the direct questions I asked him?

-YLH

FYI The original Yunus Shaikh petition was started 3 years ago... I signed it a couple of 100 times... On this one all my family has signed...

shameless...

Can you stop pi$$ing your frking TNT on this board AND SIGN the PETITION!!!!!

The citation in my previous post refers to Shame published by the Alfred Knofp publications... published in 1983.

I don`t have it here in Pakistan ... I miss the book a lot...

ABC Australia`s fascinating discussion on Pakistan and partition ... from last thursday.

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/lnl/index/default.htm

Punjabi Zulu...

Let us not put our own words in anyone`s mouth.

Yes I have read Shame... it is one of my favorite books .... he has a very similar view of the `TNT` as me that it is an imagined concept like any Nationalism ... he doesn`t ascribe to it but he does`t `reject TNT` as you allege. Please refer to Pages 254-255 (if I am not mistaken, I am referring to it from memory)...

I paraphrase ` Pakistanis would have given up their ethnic differences for the love of a common faith had it not been made such an awesome deal`.

and

`Jinnah does not strike me as a god bothered type... it was a social cultural concept. Theology was just not the point`



-YLH

Mantolives

Have you read SHAME by Salman Rushdie?

Rushdie rejects TNT absolutely, for the same reason he battles against Hindu nationalist reductiveness today.

Alephnull,

Unlike your loveable posts none of my posts were intended to belittle someone else.
Sadly you can`t see the difference. It is not your fault. Like I said I don`t have time to waste on people who condone bigotry. So as far as you are concerned... please accept my sincerest apology and I accept that we are horrible and totally bigoted, and evil and with an agenda to dominate the rest of South Asia... yes you are right... Your world view is right, and may God help you.

Satisfied? Now give yourself a rest.



Ballu Khan,

Going by what your incredible definitions, Khushwant Singh, H V Hodson, Wolpert, Kuldip Nayyar, Salman Rushdie, Nirad Chaudhry, H M Seervai, B R Ambedkar and Ajeet Javed are all TNT Islamists .... since their views of partition are roughly similar to my own and it is their work I have used in my extensive posts... In that sense even Azad is a TNT Islamist because I also rely a lot on that wonderful book of his `India wins freedom` which essentially proves the Ayesha Jalal/Cambridge View of partition.

Since you brought up Salman Rushdie ... here is another article by him people like you should read Does India Exist ? It essentially makes the same points as me ... that Nationalism is Imagination but not Fiction ... perhaps you should read Benedict Anderson`s view on this... but perhaps you are too arrogant to do that. See unlike you I am not obsessed with disproving imagined ideas the reality of which is really for those who believe in them. In any event TNT achieved its purpose and had no justification beyond 1947 when two new territorial nations emerged... so I am atleast not wedded to any such idea ... as you allege me to be. Given that the whole world is moving towards a supra-nationstate model, the indiviuality of a citizen is what matters, and the question of identity has become as personal a matter as religion itself.


Frankly I don`t care whether you laugh at my education or not... frankly I am losing interest in debating with a fella who at one time can condemn what he calls `religio-cultural solidarity` (again an imagined idea) but in the same breath advocates Hindu philosophy as the basis for a multicultural society .... not very consistent are we ? ... You are as contradictory as the Islamic fanatics we are fighting here in Pakistan.


Instead of convincing me (who believes in secular nationalism and is a Pakistani before he is a muslim) of your imposed Hindu philosophy and your diatribes against `religio-cultural solidarity` try explaining it to a fellow Indian Vertex... who with good logic is declaring himself a Muslim first in post #158 .... what do you say to that?


-YLH

PS: Ballu I see that you have taken to more name dropping and verbosity. Still other than personal attacks about my education or lack thereof you haven`t given any concrete arguments about anything.... Yes I confirm I have read Salman Rushdie and many other heretic muslim writers including my other favorite Ibne-Warraq... I have read Shame, Satanic verses, Midnight`s children and Imaginary Homelands...

Your shamelessness is visible by the way you are distorting my words... and deliberately trying to pose as a victim. Stick to the arguments ok?

You are an incredibly insecure person.

#190 by AlephNull on April 25, 2004 6:14pm PT

I must accept that your assessment of my position has been most fair. Thanks! Looking forward to see more of your posts.

#191 by Mantolives on April 25, 2004 6:42pm PT

More Oink! Oink ! by YLH.

I can only laugh at your education man! I have recommended not only Indian Philosophy but a whole lot of Ancient Greek Philosophers, Deconstructionists, Post Structuralists, Modern Atheist Indian Philosophers and heretic Muslim writers to you. Can you confirm whether you have read any of their original works (and not passing references). What are you trying to prove- that just because I hold some portions of hindu philosophy in high esteem that you want to shout this to the board Pakis and declare me as a heretic and a blasphemer? I think you really need to study AGAMA SHASTRA (the Philosophy of Idolatory).

Manto #191

{{Like Hindu Gods, an Indian poster has many avtars at one time}}

AFAIK, avatars are sequential incarnations of a godhead. They do not overlap in time and space. Rama and Krishna could never meet - appeared in different yugas. I could be wrong .. am open to correction from more knowledgeable people. Just FYI.

{{that is because unlike them I am consumed by hate to post a 100 posts simply to prove that another person is worthless and all that he stands for is garbage.}}

Are you for real? Care to revisit your verbal diarrhoea on the `Separate Destinies` board, to mention only the most recent example? Never mind your loong history on Chowk in prior avatars? What was that about fairness again?

The Practical implications of the `Hindu Philosophy` on chowk have become very clear to me now. Like Hindu Gods, an Indian poster has many avtars at one time.... One avtar posts utter BS, the other poster seconds it, the third one declares victory... None of what has been said here has any bearing on reality. By name dropping and by exhorting Hindu Philosophy .... one doesn`t shatter `myths`... especially when those myths happened to be well accepted facts. Eversince Ballu Khan started posting here, it was nothing but personal attacks... not once did he put up any counter argument to the ideas that I put up... except `you are tntist islamist`... and `read some Hindu philosophy`.

They are no doubt more than a match for me... that is because unlike them I am consumed by hate to post a 100 posts simply to prove that another person is worthless and all that he stands for is garbage... unlike them I do have somewhat of a life.

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Manto #187

{{I have no cure for a delusional mind.}}

A pity indeed – else you could have begun by medicating yourself.

{{you have shown yourself to incapable of a sense of fairness.}}

You mean because I despise the TNT? According to which arbiter – YLH?

{{I don`t care much for your verbosity}}

Neither do I … I envy the admirable economy with which Ballu Khan characterized and shredded the TNT and its apologists in #162.

{{Neither Sadna nor Ballu Khan make any sense...}}

I suspect, because they treat your most dearly held myths with scant respect. The real reason for your resentment, is not that their arguments make no sense, but that they make eminent sense, strike at the shaky foundations of the very edifice that you so cherish.

{{they are simply motivated by hate and nothing else.}}

Ah, the predictable ‘hatemongering’ whine. Running true to type once again. You have neglected to mention who or what is the object of the alleged hate. Hatred for persons is generally inadvisable. I rather doubt though that either Ballu Khan or Sadna harbours hate for members of the Pakistani awam, or individual Pakistanis that they may run into in the course of their daily life. Ideas are in a different category. I can’t speak for Ballu Khan or Sadna, but hatred for, vocal opposition to, stupid, worthless, harmful ideas is not merely appropriate but something I regard as obligatory.

PS:

Ballu...

While we are on the topic of Salman Rushdie.... I recommend very highly his collection of essays `Imaginary Homelands` .... especially the one that is the title essay... a lot of what you are (and your friends on this board and others) will jump out and bite you.


Ofcourse Salman Rushdie has roughly the same `Cambridge View` of partition that I ascribe to... (if you want I can quote directly from his books and articles) only he is more blatant in blaming it on Gandhi and people like you... (I ofcourse don`t blame it on anyone since my narrative is one of `deliverance` and not `tragedy`). It is a shame the mullahs have driven him away... he was no doubt a great writer.

-YLH

Arjunm 186,

Agreed...

However while not disputing the fact these tendencies cut across all sections of the society, I must point out that the school shown in that documentary was not an elite school. Today almost every school has a jacket and tie as its uniform in Pakistan... it was a lower middle class Matric school. Remember the extremist always speaks louder... I am trying to cultivate a counter-extremism which is as extreme as the extremists... That is why I speak louder than them.




Alephnull,

I have no cure for a delusional mind. Neither Sadna nor Ballu Khan make any sense... they are simply motivated by hate and nothing else. I don`t care much for your verbosity... you have shown yourself to incapable of a sense of fairness. Therefore I don`t have more words and time to waste on you. I am happier interacting with Arjunm, who does not hide his spots, but has a sense of fairness a thousand times more pronounced than your own.

Ballu Khan,

Back to name dropping are we? Have you read Salman Rushdie? I have and he is my favorite author... ever read `Midnight`s Children`?



-YLH

reg all that Oink! Oink! by YLH.

YLH, you are unnecessarly getting worked up by my `world view` which goes contrary to your stupid `minority movement` which you wrongly state as TNT.
Chill out man! Get a Beer! Forget this TNT BS and all this Jinnah demi-God stuff. Read some good philosophy- read Hans Christan Gadamer, read Derrida, read Epicureans and Stoics, read Salman Rushdie, read JS Krishnamurthy, Milan Kundera- get this Jinnah and TNT BS outta your system. If you think any other book or philosophy apart from that contained in Jinnah`s speeches are useless- then I can only pity your intellectual honesty. We will cross our swords again on the issues- including your favourite thesis on Jinnah - I promise! Let us cut out this slinging match because you would curse yourself if I were to roll up my sleeves and pull out all those abuses!! Till then chill out AND sign up the frking PETITION!!!!!!

Cheers!

Manto #179 - #181

No you haven’t called me a ‘Hindutvist’ yet – you may, soon enough. As for that request for ‘fairness’, let it apply to everybody, beginning with you..

Your version of ‘Hindutvist’ is an idiosyncratic personal definition. It doesn’t quite match the definition of ‘Hindutvadi’ in India, and it is patently obvious that the two named recipients of your ‘Hindutvist’ label are emphatically not Hindutvadis as commonly understood in India. What is most interesting is the way you imported that business about ‘the rest of the subcontinent’ and ‘preaching violent hatred against … neighboring countries of India’ into your definition. That, together with some very ‘creative’ interpretation of other peoples’ posts, is your only hope for making your label stick.

I went back and read Ballukhan’s posts on TNT/Jinnah spanning three or four boards. I must say he is most articulate and has repeatedly hit the nail on the head, skewering your precious TNT and Jinnah in the process. I completely endorse his #162 on this board (in addition to a lot of his other posts on TNT – I especially enjoyed that delicious satirical riff ‘The Gurdaspur Truth’ on the ‘Separate Destinies’ board).

It is fairly clear that Ballukhan`s attack on TNT and characterisation of Pakistani elite agenda is what really got your goat, and not some alleged ‘imposing his versions of Hindu … teachings on everyone …’ or ‘preaching violent hatred against non-Hindu minorities’. Ditto with Sadna – in these two you’ve found adversaries who are more than a match for you, have a far wider range, have seen right through you, don’t hesitate to make their opinions plain.

As for the complaint about ‘preaching hatred’ … it is a favourite recourse of Pakistani elite ideologues on this board. It is very often referred to instead as ‘hatemongering’. What is typically under attack when that whine makes its appearance, is not the life and limb and well-being of voiceless poverty-stricken common Pakistanis. Rather, it is the tender sensibilities, the concocted history, the delusional worldview, and most of all the material interests of the Pakistani ruling elite.

It is a bad idea to nurture hatred for individuals except for the most irredeemably criminal. It is right and proper to attack – satirise - ridicule - ideas, philosophies, and habits of thought that lead ultimately to avoidable human suffering. TNT and the underlying idea of religious identity as the primary basis of human solidarity is as stupid an idea as any I’ve seen and richly deserves to be beaten into the ground.

Re. My last post: Replace `Hindutvadi` by `Hindutva-vadi`. Mea culpa.

This is a post by dost-mittar from another Board- but relevant to the topic.

#63 by dost-mittar on April 23, 2004 8:01pm PT
``These ``Noam Chomskies of Pakistan`` have forgotten that `Chomskian courage` lay squarely in bold attempts to understand the reality of political processes - even if it meant confronting the powerful. But who is the powerful, the mentor, and the financier in the case of Pakistani Noam Chomskies? Who is rewarding the so-called courage? I leave this question to the readers``

It does not require much courage to be a Noam Chomsky in the U.S or an Arundhati Roy in India. They will be criticised by many and lionised by some; despite such criticisms, they are able to charge hefty fees on the lecture circuits and for book advances to say things that they want to say. Can this happen in Pakistan? In case you dont know the answer, read the article on Blasphemy to find out what happens to people in Pakistan who say things that are not popular.

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Solitude
He has pointed out that only 10 people have signed the petition for abrogation of blasphemy law. It is not because the people do not want abrogation of this law or are afraid of signing it due to repercusions it might have but due to the fact that the law actually is a mild manifestation of the madness which it wanted to control somehow. It is the `Ilamdeeni` culture of whih it is only a milder manifestation which is requred to be faught against and eradicated. This law, however, failed to legalize the madness as people charged under it were killed in jail and even some of those who were acquitted were not spared. What can government do in this regard when Gen. Musharraf had to withdraw his suggestion for a minor amendment in the procedure of registering cases under the law when he was a mighty Chief Executive. So it is not a legal battle you have to fight to eradicate this menace but to challenge the root cause of this madness. Here I copy an English translation of the Hadees which forms perhaps the main basis of this law:-

Sunnan Abudawud
Book 38, Number 4348:
Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:
A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was informed about it.
He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.
He sat before the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.
Thereupon the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood.

Now think whether you want to rvive this law by abrogating the Blasphemy law. Incidently this Hadees also provides the basis for the `Karo kari` also.

Alephnull,

A bit of fairness... please. You and I have had a number of arguments... Have I called you hindutva or Hindutvist?

Look at what Ballu Khan is accusing me of? Trying to put Islam above all others... while informing me of the greatness of Hindu Philosophy.... which according to him all people of the subcontinent, whether Muslim christian or Hindu should read. If you can`t see the contradiction... then what can one say ? It was only after Ballu Khan so shamelessly started calling me `TNTist-Islamist` that I called him a Hindutvist... which he certainly is.
Your claims are wrong and arrogant.... I called Sadna a Hindutvist because she was generalizing about all Pakistanis ... and I can prove it.



Perhaps your national alleigance has blinded you as well.

-YLH

PS: The defining characteristic of a Hindutvist as I have described often time before is :


1) Anyone seeking to impose his or her own version of Hindu Philosophy and Hindu teachings on everyone in India and the rest of the subcontinent


2) Preaching violent hatred against the non-Hindu minorities, or against neighboring countries of India.



Ballu Khan is doing both.


I challenge AlephNull to go back and see who called who what and when?


Islamist:

Anyone disagreeing with Ballu Khan (and His allies) on the subcontinent`s partiton and history, anyone not as learned about the Hindu Philosophy as Ballu, anyone who doesn`t give into their one sided view of history is a TNTist Islamist.

Final Word....

It seems that Indians can do what they please on this site... call anyone Islamist, generalize most blatantly, pass the most bigoted and untrue comments, make the most outrageous analogies, declare anyone who opposes them as an Islamic fanatic but if someone reacts in kind after being provoked, we see people Alephnull breaking wind again and again.


Much has been said about Pakistani textbooks and education .... From my own knowledge they are blatant in their bigotry. Therefore their effect can only be marginal... because the elite doesn`t even go through the local system... but what can one say of the Subtle subversion of Indian education and media? It is a far more effective propaganda machine with long run consequences.


We see the results of this on chowk.

Mantolives #176

{{Perhaps nothing can attest to my position as being the right and justified one more than the opposition I receive on various forums ....}}

{{I am routinely condemend by the Indian Hindutvists as an Islamist, TNTist, etc.... though I must admit that my Indian detractors are fewer than my Pakistani detractors.}}

Manto – your observation above is utterly vacuous. Your common practice is to label your Indian adversaries as ‘Hindutvists` – irrespective of their actual opinions towards ‘Hindutva’. As far as I can make out, the defining characteristic of a ‘Hindutvist’ as defined by you, is not sympathy, or opposition, or even indifference, to `Hindutva’ – it is simply an Indian disagreeing with Yasser Latif Hamdani, or displaying thoroughgoing contempt for the putrid TNT, or showing inadequate reverence for YLH`s heroes lead by the Great Jinnah, or in other ways riding roughshod over YLH’s tender sensibilities. Nothing less, nothing more.

This habit by the way is hardly unique to you – it is a common though not invariable practice among elite Pakistanis across a range of age groups and is routinely observed on Chowk. Depending on their linguistic sophistications, they term their Indian opposition `Hinduvtas`, `Hindutvas`, Hindutvists`, etc. etc. ad amusem. You are simply running true to type.

Perhaps nothing can attest to my position as being the right and justified one more than the opposition I receive on various forums .... for what I write about Partition, Pakistan, Islam, Hinduism, and Secularism...

I am routinely condemned by the Islamists Pakistani and otherwise ..as a Hindu, Islamophobe, blasphemer, one of the two signs of apocalpyse, the `goo-chaater` of the west, the secular fanatic....


I am routinely condemend by the Indian Hindutvists as an Islamist, TNTist, etc.... though I must admit that my Indian detractors are fewer than my Pakistani detractors.

-YLH

Ballu Khan,

Do you always assume something like this about someone who you don`t know? How do you know that I am even a believing muslim... I may or may not be. My views are here for everyone to read... None of my posts have the mention of Islam ... it is your wetdream and nothing else. You on the other hand keep harping about how muslims not just in India but all over the subcontinent should know about the Hindu Philosophy... which I think I do better than a number of individuals here. Yet your attitude is Hindutva pure and simple (that all Muslims of Sub continent should know and conform to the hindu philosophy) You keep talking about TNT blah blah... shows your narrowmindedness, and poor reading comprehension, nothing more. All that you have said is true of you and not of me You are reading all other philosophies to understand Hinduism... and that much is apparent. Everything other than your own ideology is one big blob... Pakistan= TNT=Islam= sharia.... this is your understanding ... and this is the understanding of your former pre-partition allies the Mullahs. None of those four things are equal to each other ...


What I do or don`t believe is for everyone here.... Those who have followed my letters/Articles/posts here or any where knows that I only stand for one thing ... I have only one axe to grind... Equal rights for all Pakistanis regardless of their religion, caste or gender. Now how I could be accused of all that you have accused me... only the creator knows...





rsidhar,

Shameless ... thats all I have to say to you. You know where I stand on what ... still you chose to gang up with this maniac .


I might be well aware of the debates of duality, and non-duality... I think I have read enough of Hinduism and Buddhism (in school in Lahore BTW) to know the essential differences between Atman, and anatman... and this is not the only religion I have read about... I also have some knowledge of almost any faith of the world whether `eastern` or what is falsely categorized as `western`. I know what I want to know... and I personally don`t think any faith or culture has the claim of being `superior`. Yet the attitude both of you are taking is indicative of the worst form of bigotry... what if I didn`t know of these philosophies... what then ? Do I deserve to die? To I deserve to be attacked in such a shameless manner? This is the Hindutva that is scary... and this is your subtle bigotry that causes the rift between the two major communities in India...


-YLH

PS:

Ballu Khan`s world view proves that his form of `religious multiculturalism` is simply RSS`s Hindutva re-hashed .... this view seeks to place Hindu Philosophy and Hindu Ideology over all else, seeks to impose this idea on everyone in the subcontinent and perhaps the world.

This is fascism pure and simple... no wonder we hear of growing intolerance not just against Muslims but even against Christians and more open minded Hindus... Ballu Khan`s essentially does not seek to convert Muslims and Christians to Hinduism, but seeks from them an assurance that all of them will accept Hindu Philosophy as supreme and superior.


This is not a secular world view... Secularism seeks to separate Church and State... not to place one Church over the other.

#172 by solitude on April 22, 2004 12:44pm PT

sorry I seem to have missed that!

A petition was started to combat this. But guess how many people we have gotten to sign up yet ? a grand total of 10!

So people say that all these ``moderate`` pakistanis know what to do is yak and jab and BS away with ``Brother this is not true Islam`` but deep down inside these people will not sign a petition. I don`t believe it though. Even though the chowk editors won`t put the link to the petition up nor do they care about putting up Dr. Shaikh`s photograph I emailed but I sincerely think they were busy not that they didn`t care.

In case you haven`t noticed :

http://www.petitiononline.com/UN_FREE/petition.html

or click here

Come on guys! sign up and let your voice be heard.

#168 by rsridhar on April 21, 2004 10:58am PT

I doubt he would even know about batata-puri.

#165 by Mantolives on April 21, 2004 8:46am PT

This is what living in a multicultural and multi-religious society means- you become broad minded and open to what Gadamar calls `Fusion of Horizon``- you become open to other points of view and disparate ways of life- you do not belittle sub-altern cultures just because your culture is the dominent one. You read more of other philosophies and history in order to understand Islam better. But all this goes over your bigoted understanding. To that extent I find you closer to the puritan fanatics in Pakistan and the RSS knickerwalas who seek uniformity in the political and cultural order in the name of TNT and Islam. I can see you wollowing in your TNT hovel for quite some time. That is sad!!

fianl word-

And thanks to the Indian Constitution I do not have to be worried about the charge of blasphemy that you certainly would have put on me for recommending you to read hindu philosophy.

re: Romair`s last post

``The reason I have an issue with the BJP version of it is, that it is directly state supported. And even organized by the state. With the leaders gaining benefits within his own party, due to the violence. This is different, and perhaps unprecendented in South Asia.``
Different yes. Unprecedented, perhaps NO.
There was one more leader who gained by hindu-muslim violence. He helped create a country out of violence (i know, i know. He had all the good intentions). And that country is still mired in violence and exports terrorism all over the world.
The country: Pakistan.
And the leader? You guessed it right, Romair.
M.A. Jinnah.
Sridhar

re: #156 by ballukhan
Our good friend Mantolive knows all about Jinnah. He is so passionate about him that i guess he dreams of him at night (not a good thing for a newly married guy!).
Advaita! You got to be kidding. Our good friend does not know Advaita from Batata-Puri.
Sridhar

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162, 163

Again deliberate ofbuscation... by a jingoistic Paki-Basher... and nothing else.

I didn`t start the debate on TNT... I had my say on Blasphemy, a law against which I am fighting while living in my country. However when somebody else started making statements, I did respond as is my right.

This thread died a week ago... the only reason it is kept alive is because you want to prove that you are superior to all Pakistanis ... now you will take out all sorts of tangents and make all sorts of intellectually shallow comments, because you really don`t have any real arguments...


And when that doesn`t work , you will lecture us on the superiority of Hindu Philosophy. I see far more similarities between you and the BJP/RSS goons... hate Pakistan, and preach Hindu philosophy. This `sham` religious multiculturalism is nothing but a modern avtar of fascism of the RSS. You are the only one rehashing it, and you project it on others.

# 152 by Romair
Romair is at it again. I mean, myth making. So, we are being told: Shia-Sunni violence is not so bad as it is terrorism based not community based. Try telling that to the family of doctors who lost their lives in Karachi just because they were Shias.
Terrorism is what grips Pakistan today. So, this idiot is saying that terrorism is O.K.

He then steps into unchartered territory by creating another theory: Terrorism in India is state sponsored!
Hey idiot.
Terrorism in India is not one kind. The Naxalites in Andhra Pradesh are very different from Kashmiri terrorists who are very different from the moditva type terrorism that Gujarat witnessed.
The first 2 are not state sponsored. The last was certainly aided and abetted by Gujarat Statte with the central BJP cadre looking the other way.
This has been debated freely and fairly by Indian media and idiots like Romair have nothing new to add.
The good news for terror victims is that Justice is alive in India, as the new Supreme Court ruling in the so called ``Best Bakery case`` shows.
Url for Romoron`s viewing pleasure (i know the idiot is never going to read it):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/south_asia/3619079.stm
Sridhar

Ofcourse I can see the difference in details between the ex-Congress Muslim Leaders and the RSS Knickerwala Hindutva- but I am also seeing the similarities which are more evident in terms of their basing the solidarity between humans on some pre-existing religio-social similarity between humans.
This is what YOU fail to see- the fascistic foundations of Pakistani military dictatorships in last 50 years resulted from the seeds sown by the TNT to which you prescribe with great alacrity. Now, in a changed global postion on theocracy and terrorism you are acting as an apologist for the old Paki feudal order and want to re-hash TNT as a `sophisticated minority movement` without explaining what that minority movement implies- after all minorities exist peacefully with all other sub-minorities and the sub-sub-minorities of all flavours globally without seeking a ``partition`` from the other groups- (notwith standing the fact that sometimes the majority in a particular state and a regional context become minority in a national or a global context)

I would not let this thread be hijacked any more- there are plenty of threads on the issue of TNT and its theocratic and religious bearings elsewhere. I do not want to waste time on that again- Yes! in case you still feel more needs to be thrashed out we would cross swords in an appropriate context.

And this distasteful excercise of comparing the riot murder figures non-chalantly shows the type of rabble rousing that YOU indulge in- acting like a frking teenager who compares the number of frogs he has killed in the neighbourhood pond with his friend. You end up exposing your role as an apologist for the existing feudal elites whose historiography seeks to influence the Pakistani middle class to re-affirm their faith in the exisiting power equilibrium between military-feudal-mullah-beaurocratic elites.
Since dost-mittar has personally interacted with you and is aware of your social position in the Paki society I leave the final assessment of you on him.

Ofcourse I can see the difference in details between the ex-Congress Muslim Leaders and the RSS Knickerwala Hindutva- but I am also seeing the similarities which are more evident in terms of their basing the solidarity between humans on some pre-existing religio-social similarity between humans.
This is what YOU fail to see- the fascistic foundations of Pakistani military dictatorships in last 50 years resulted from the seeds sown by the TNT to which you prescribe with great alacrity. Now, in a changed global postion on theocracy and terrorism you are acting as an apologist for the old Paki feudal order and want to re-hash TNT as a `sophisticated minority movement` without explaining what that minority movement implies- after all minorities exist peacefully with all other sub-minorities and the sub-sub-minorities of all flavours globally without seeking a ``partition`` from the other groups- (notwith standing the fact that sometimes the majority in a particular state and a regional context become minority in a national or a global context)

I would not let this thread be hijacked any more- there are plenty of threads on the issue of TNT and its theocratic and religious bearings elsewhere. I do not want to waste time on that again- Yes! in case you still feel more needs to be thrashed out we would cross swords in an appropriate context.

And this distasteful excercise of comparing the riot murder figures non-chalantly shows the type of rabble rousing that YOU indulge in- acting like a frking teenager who compares the number of frogs he has killed in the neighbourhood pond with his friend. You end up exposing your role as an apologist for the existing feudal elites whose historiography seeks to influence the Pakistani middle class to re-affirm their faith in the exisiting power equilibrium between military-feudal-mullah-beaurocratic elites.
Since dost-mittar has personally interacted with you and is aware of your social position in the Paki society I leave the final assessment of you on him.

I had offered some comments on Shery`s Bill in an urdu daily. I wanted to repeat the same here but I could not. I would however say this much that we are thankfull to Miss Shery that she provided the people an oppotunity to discuss the HOs. But she should realize this that all this theocratic nonsence started with the `Fatwa` amendment in the Constitution made by Bhutto for pure political considerations for saving his government from the onslought of the mullah. So far as Islam is concerned it has no place for the modern woman-see verse 34 of sura Nissa which allows the husband to beat his wife. In fact the overall trend of the Quran is to treat treat the woman as a sub-human creature, a field (Kheti) to be treated in whatever manner one likes. She can be kept as loundi-cum-dashta with no rights at all. See a Hadees in this respect:
ook 38, Number 4348:
Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:
A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was informed about it.
He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.
He sat before the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.
Thereupon the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood.

Vertex...

Perhaps... I give you that much... though I am myself a Pakistani first and then a Muslim. Yet imposition either way is fascism. The point however was to counter the skewed world view of Ballu Khan, who no doubt ascribes to such ideology of imposition... it is not his fault... because the Indian propaganda is subtler than the blatant Pakistani propaganda, its hold on the masses` imagination is much greater. My own dislike for Pakistani textbooks especially Pakistan studies books is well known on Chowk... therefore I make it a point to quote Non-Pakistani authors... despite the fact that I quoted only Indian authors like B R Ambedkar, H M Seervai , Kuldip Nayyar and Khushwant Singh, Ballu Khan shamelessly retorts `go back to your Pakistan studies books`. This is the hallmark of anyone who is at loss of words and arguments. He will make stupid and idiotic comments and try to derail the discussion by drawing tangents and indulging in irrelevant BS.

-YLH

Salaam Alaikum

In response to vertex...


I couldn`t agree with you more, vertex. As an American, I get barks and howls from a lot of friends from abroad about the inconsistencies of Americas infamous past. Yet, these same individuals consider themselves devout ``nationalists`` of their country of origin. I`m considered a blind American (kuffar even) if I consider myself patriotic or in tune with the decision of America. It seems American patriotism is narcissism and abroad patriotism is nationalism. Anyone else notice the undivided line of duplicity?

More serious, some claim their country before Islam. Nonsense! Islam comes before one`s country, culture, race, etc. Shah Rukh Khan is only a minimal example of some of the ``secular nationalistic`` feeling that`s in vogue.

To mock the whole situation: those Americans should have