Train to Pakistan 2004: The Tribute

Re: # 11

``I just cannot understand what kind of picture Indians have of Pakistanis? What exactly has your government and media been feeding them? And why do they believe it? Is there a website that has an Indian version of what a, ``Pakistani,`` is presumed to look like? Does he have horns and tail and gun in his hand? :-) ``

Actually, I never understood why we, as kids/teens, were filled with a ``YAAAAAAAAAAAYYY`` voice in our heads when news released deaths of indians on any given occasions --even innocent indians. Please consider it a 2-sided thing

:)

Hamid sahab: next time you`re in pakistan, would you be interested in getting in touch? i`m bhindigosht@yahoo.com

Thanks Hamidm2 . . . Islamabad invite for nimbu-pani extreme version sounds good, do they do it with masala too?

On the Lahore bit, my late Dad used to tell me that there was nothing more entertaining than setting up the Lahoris versus the non-Lahoris into arguments on dull evenings in medical college.

My angst about Lahore stems from the ridiculous amount of fine stone dust we have to ingest on the Wagah-Lahore railway line. A week later, and my nostrils are still aflame, my throat has this wierd feeling and my mind revolts whenever I think about going there by train again.

Do you get to Delhi too?

vereesh mian,

...... i am stuck in the great american midwest, in a city that does not have police reporting even though it seems to have the highest criminal to citizen ratio in the country!............. but i can be found in pindi/islamabad in july and december ...... if you do end up in islamabad you must get the guys from your consulate to take you for a round of golf at the islamabad golf club (they seem to be there at least five days a week ) ............afterwards you can sit on the verandah of the club house and enjoy the best nimboo-pani in the world served in frozen beer steins - thanks to islamic resurgence you now have to take your own pawa of gin to pour in!............

.......... and i don`t think you will win an argument with the lahoris - those guys are thinking of moving the kaaba to anarkali !.......... having lived in lahore for five years, i must say, they do have a point - it is a great city ............ compared to lahore, pindi/islamabad is a sleepy little town which shuts down by the time the lahoris are just getting started............

Hamidm2 # 60, great, thank you. Makes my day, your explanation. Which city in the world are you in, and does it not have police reporting, please? I just love the way people take some of your messages oh so seriously.

Now I got to go back and give those Lahore types something to chew on. For far too long have people from Lahore gone on and on . . . because we in Delhi were busy.

As for Hanuman`s hordes, have you read the Chinese version of the Ramayan, specifically the part where the God of the Sun descendants Chinese natch met up with the God of the Apes South of the Himalayas, and asked for help?

Ref hamidm2 #49

[......... even i, a whiskey loving peacenik, threw a bomb-party when nawaz sharif titted the indian tat ..........]

Well, I had to think for a moment and turn the phrase ``tit for tat`` over in my mind to see if it should have been ``when nawaz sharif tatted the indian tit`` but unfortunately you are correct in your usage of words ;-)

vereesh,

..........i don`t know much about the hajooj and the mahjooj except what i remember from my grandmother`s tales ......... i just loved the way she used to slowly drawl out the words ,``.......hajooooj or mahjoooj ab diwar kay pechay band hai.... laikan wo diwar ko din raat chaat rahey hain .......... aik din, wo nikal ain gay aur phir insaanon kay saath bohat bari jang ho gi .......... ab chup kar kay so jao!``..........

.......... later in life i realized she was probably talking gog and magog, the evil one`s who were supposed to lead their armies out of the north against israel (all kinds of creatures have been picking on poor israel since the creation of the world!) ............first i thought it was the mongols who were licking away at the great wall of china........... but then it could be the chinese slurping at the himalayas trying to make a meal out of the scrawny chicken-breasted gandhi types............. of course in pakistan, where most people don`t know which end is up, north could be east, unless of course hanuman`s hordes decide to take the scenic route through kashmir ................in any case, here is what god has to say about these horrible creatures :

`` Ezekiel 38:15-23 and come from your place out of the uttermost parts of the north, you and many peoples with you, all of them riding on horses, a great host, a mighty army;

you will come up against my people Israel, like a cloud covering the land.

In the latter days I will bring you against my land, that the nations may know me, when through you, O Gog, I vindicate my holiness before their eyes.

``Thus says the Lord GOD: Are you he of whom I spoke in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel, who in those days prophesied for years that I would bring you against them?

But on that day, when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, says the Lord GOD, my wrath will be roused.

For in my jealousy and in my blazing wrath I declare, On that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;the fish of the sea, and the birds of the air, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep on the ground, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall quake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the cliffs shall fall, and every wall shall tumble to the ground.

I will summon every kind of terror against Gog, says the Lord GOD; every man`s sword will be against his brother. ``

.............. and people think the world is a crazy place today !

re:#57 by Soulat
Only some North Indians with ties to Pak are nostalgic about cricket and visiting Pakistan. For most Indians, Pakis do not even exist. I mean, come on guys. Do u seriously think we are preoccupied with Pakis? Only reason i am even interacting here is because of some real/ perceived harm that your country is doing to India and i as a NRI care.
Now, i heard u guys fell over each other to have a glimpse of all those Bollywood stars. I am sure u were one of them, craning your neck and scratching your groin at the site of Urmila Matondkar. I hear that when the popular pop-singer Sonu Nigam was in Karachi, tickets for this concert were sold out and each ticket cost Rs 5000!

As elections are being held in India, there is an unprecedented interest in Pak. Visit this Url:
http://www.jang.com.pk/important_events/indian_elections/index.html
to know what is going on with Indian elections. If u don`t, i am sure other Pakis are reading all about the elections or at least what is going on.
So, do not give me the crap about `` Pakistanis don’t have this fascination of India.`` Heck, they even listen to anti-Pak songs belted out by Bollywood!

``Pakistan has good game of keeping India and Hindu supremacist party BJP tied down in Kashmir and I just don’t see any reason to let this up because for some reason we need to have better relations with India. I mean what are those reasons precisely?``
Dude, looks like u have been sleeping for the last several months or perhaps u were on drugs and do not know what is happening to your country. Pak`s jehad in Kashmir has failed miserably: militarily, diplomatically and most importantly, financially. Pak`s GDP growth dipped while India`s increased during the jehad years. Of late, with latest equipment from Israel, Indian Army has been exterminating the jehadi rats faster than u can say cheese. So, there u have the answer to your question.

``First people from Karachi f--ked with Indian brains then Punjabis had some fun with these useful idiots. Why turn it into some agonizing ordeal of having to deal with them and their 1930 model cars regularly?``
Forgot 1971 already?
As far as auto industry is concerned, read about Indica, the latest from Tatas from the following Url:
http://www.goodnewsindia.com/Pages/content/milestones/indica.html
`` A team of over 700 engineers who had never worked on a car before, developed a prototype at a cost of Rs.280 crore. An unused Nissan plant bought in Australia was cut up into about 800 containers and reassembled in Pune at a cost of $22 million [around Rs.100 crore]. Telco engineers robotised the assembly plant with a high degree of automation - the paint shop has only 16 workers. This level of automation had never been done before in India. The plant has now produced over one lakh cars, making around 250 cars a shift, or one car every 105 - 130 seconds.

And Indica was on the road within three years of conception, at a cost of about $400 million as against a world-wide estimate of $1.2 billion for a `fresh` car. ``

Latest scene from the Auto industry in India:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/EI03Df01.html

``Yet the hottest ideas in car design are happening right now in the back streets of Mumbai. India is now the ninth country in the world to design a vehicle on its own. ``

``The Indian-made sports utility vehicle Scorpio received a singular response in Detroit early this year, not just for its design but also because of its cheaper price tag. Tata Motors, the country`s second-largest car maker`s small Indica convinced MG Rover of the UK to sell it to the UK market as the City Rover. Others like Ford`s mid-sized car model Ikon, Maruti`s Altos and Toyota`s Indian-made multi-utility vehicle have found ready buyers in a number of American, European and neighboring countries. ``

``Already, 15 global car makers - including GM, Ford, DaimlerChrysler, Mercedes-Benz, Audi, Isuzu and Nissan – have set up outsourcing offices in the country, with a combined budget of approximately $1.5 billion, industry sources say. Leading component makers like Delphi, Visteon and Caterpillar, too, have found India their best bet.``

I know. It is frustrating for u. You may wanna go back to your coke or hashish or whatever it is you were smoking. Sometimes, ignorance can be a true bliss.
Sridhar

hamidm2 . . . can you tell us more about hajooj & majooj please?

For the rest, your humour is amazing, thank you. I do not know how many people are able to read between your lines . . .

hamidm2, dost-mittar, tahmed32

Now you guys are really sharp. Know every thing and here I am just trying to figure out why India and Pakistan cannot maintain the same level of relations that we have now for another 57 years? Indians can come every two or three years watch cricket until the fascination goes away. There is nothing that suggests that Pakistanis would go to India to watch cricket games. Pakistanis don’t have this fascination of India. I doubt that any Pakistani would be spending time writing these huge monologues after being in India under ten days. I mean what is the big deal! I will be nice to any idiot that visits my home. I have been nice to dogs regularly.

Pakistan has good game of keeping India and Hindu supremacist party BJP tied down in Kashmir and I just don’t see any reason to let this up because for some reason we need to have better relations with India. I mean what are those reasons precisely? Both govts are being forced to please the US and they can play this game until some reasonably secular govt comes into power in India.

First people from Karachi f--ked with Indian brains then Punjabis had some fun with these useful idiots. Why turn it into some agonizing ordeal of having to deal with them and their 1930 model cars regularly?

hamidm #49 relax. i dont think we are going to see swarms of painted swamis and hordes of big-toe chuppalled madrassis accompanied by their women with badly tied saris with love handles sticking out from the sides parading down mall road anytime soon. the madrasis have started dressing better now anyway, and some of them have even started wearing proper shoes. check out indian movies and see how cute the actresses now look. change your stereotype of the indian, and you will feel better. if not, take two aspirin and call me in the morning.

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aakar
That bit in Mid Day on Imtiaz Ahmed sounded snobbish and cheap. Please don`t let the class snobbery of some of our friends rub off on you.

hamidm2:
`` why can`t we treat it like china treats the taiwan issue?..........continue to call it an integral part of pakistan while playing footsie with businessmen from bangalore and bimbos from bombay (and that does not include fv) .......... ``

My point, exactly, even though I did not put it so succinctly!

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hi veeresh
great piece.
funny you should mention feeling moved on hearing of 3000 sikhs in pindi.
rehan and i were walking around old lahore and near delhi gate, on the way to wazir khan`s mosque, we entered a lane where hundreds of sardars were walking around shopping and it was beautiful.
rehan`s uncle (col) moin said half-jokingly that ``seeing so many sardars on the mall again makes me nervous``!
aakar

dear everybody
while on the subject of sardars, a group of us desis and pakistanis went over to the tombs/shrines of maharaja ranjit singh and guru arjun outside the badshahi masjid in lahore and the guards at the gate asked us where we were from.
a sign in urdu outside said muslims may not enter and we lied to get everybody in.
my host ifti khalu said that the banning of muslims was probably the work of the pakistani wakf board. is that true? or is it the gurudwara prabhandhak samiti equivalent in pakistan that`s responsible?
would any of you know?
aakar

tourists, voyeurs or spies .............

....... it really warms the cockles of my heart to see that peace has finally broken out between the horrible hindoos and the pathetic pakis ............ vereesh and dost-mittar have visted their ancestral land, the indian cricket team has whopped up on their ancestral enemies, tahmed has chosen to disregard the koranic instructions on how to deal with infidels, nazar hayat is being his usual gentlemanly self, romair is off to start his indentured service in bangalore - in short, everyone is smug and happy and has this warm feeling as if they have just peed in their pants !..................... remember, you might be feeling good for now, but in a little while it will start to stink ..........

.......... why is it that i have absolutely no desire to visit the wrong side of the border?......... i don`t even have any desire to visit jhelum which is sixty miles away, or peshawar which is a hundred miles away .......... if you have to go somewhere why don`t you go to maui or rome, angoori or chattar ?.......... what is with this voyeurism?........ why do people have this sick desire to see how the enemy lives, or for that matter how anyone else lives?............ anthropological interest?.......... i can assure you that just as the bushmen of kalahari do not enjoy white men in pith hats gaping at them, my people in pindi did not appreciate indians in their silly white rss topees running around raja bazaar ............

.......... i see this as a conspiracy........ yes sir, a conspiracy by the cunning bania to make us forget about kashmir, lull us into sleep and then whack us over the head and steal what little we have left ...... ........ as a matter of fact, dost-mittar ( a convenient name!) has suggested as much on another board - he asks us why do we need nuclear weapons and then goes on to suggest that kashmir is an albatross around our skinny necks!......... wah bhai wah!........we all know that a fool is born every day in pakistan, but only a complete imbecile would suggest that pakistan did the wrong thing to make a bomb or two ......... even i, a whiskey loving peacenik, threw a bomb-party when nawaz sharif titted the indian tat .......... at least we can go to bed knowing that if we get evaporated in our sleep someone on the other side will pay in kind ............. not much of a consolation but, human nature being what it is, it is better than nothing ............ personally i don`t care much for kashmir or kashmiris, but as a nation it seems kind of whimpy to back down completely after fifty years of blowing hot air ......... why can`t we treat it like china treats the taiwan issue?..........continue to call it an integral part of pakistan while playing footsie with businessmen from bangalore and bimbos from bombay (and that does not include fv) ..........

..........this lovey-dovey stuff is nauseating ............... all our lives we have grown up to believe that the horrible hindoos are like the hajooj and the mahjooj who are licking at the wall and one day will break through to destroy us ............ now we are falling over each other to open the gates of hell ............what is going on here?

............ anyway, i am glad that dost-mittar and vereesh had a good time in the land of their ancestors ..........

veeresh, Ansari:
Yes, my observations are based on HT and TOI which I saw in India. And, yes, in addition to selling it at the price of the newsprint, they also give attractive giveaways to pry the rival`s subscribers from it. My old favourite, The Statesman, seems to have almost disappeared from the scene, despite an impressive new building it has built for itself in place of the stately old building in Con. Place. My view is that if the newspapers have to compete with the instant news provided by TV channels, they can only do so by adding value to the news, i.e., more in-depth analysis and investigative journalism, something that weekly magazines seem to be doing in India.

...Filmfare for Rs. 250? who`s buying it when you can get all the masala you want in your 2-rupee newspaper?

Veeresh: right now I think it`s the garmi. It`s just too hot to bother . . . Lekin seriously, I think they need to, at least as far as this is concerned. It`s criminal how much books and newspapers cost in this country. Liberty Books has the monopoly on most of the stuff brought in from abroad and they mercilessly fleece us over them. Buy a book aur paanch sau rupay tau kahin nahin gae. What`s worse is that the books imported from India are marked at almost double the value sometimes. Jhumpa Lahiri`s The Namesake ka Indian edition 375, ya 395, ka tha, aur yahan pe 675 ka baech rahay thay. It`s outrageous.

There is no system really to keep these people in check. What we really need is a strong consumer body willing to assert itself on the market. But then we haven`t really been a community of readers. Maybe that`s why we don`t have too many good libraries here either. But that`s not really important. I think it`s just that as consumers we`re too docile and unimaginative. There needs to be more free market activity, more active consumerism so that the next time you go into a bookstore it`s a three story complex with cosy arm chairs and soft jazz and a little cafe serving capuccino because the store manager knows that if he doesn`t offer you all that you`ll just go down the street to the next store that does.

Dost Mittar 44 . . . sirji, you are correct about the merchandising aspect of many newspapers/magazines in India . . . but even then, The Hindu sells for 2 or 3 rupees and has probably the best researched content, The Indian Express likewise, Outlook you`ve mentioned is eminent value for 15/-, and the vernacular press is where the action really lies.

At 1.50 for TOI or HT, purchase price new is very close to kabaddi price resale. There is a truth in that somewhere!!

Why don`t Pakistanis demand better value for money? You tell me, Ansari?

Mittar-jee: I can`t speak for Indian newspapers because I haven`t read any. I have however read Pakistani ones and they aren`t particularly good. In fact, it`s enough to put you off newspapers altogether. Which is just as well. I have 12 extra rupees a day to myself now. [Chowk ``experts`` tell me all that I need to know anyways . . . ;o) ]

Outlook on the other hand was an enjoyable read. I`ve looked for it in bookstores here lekin apart from the usual Stardust and Filmfare we don`t seem to import any other Indian magazines. Aur Filmfare bhi do sau pachaas rupay ka hai.

Ansari:
The low price of newspapers in India have come at a price; and the price is that the editor in India has surrendered to the marketing manager. The Indian newspaper is not only cheaper, it also a lot bulkier and the bulk, alas, is full of advertisements and the stuff that really belongs in cheap tabloids - chat-patti stories about entertainment world and local celebrities or what is known as `page 3` in India. In Pakistan, ads probably make up for less than a third of the newspaper; in India they probably make three-fourths or more, not including the area-specific ads inserted in newspapers. The news is only secondary in newspapers, even the lead story not getting more than a couple of paragraphs (and that too sometimes summarised into a boxed highlight). One can get more in-depth reporting on TV channels these days than the Indian newspapers.
So, be careful what you wish for, you might get it!

Just going to bring something over from another board . . .

Veeresh wrote ``“I think the best aspect for Pakistanis of having so many Indian middle class adrift in Pakistan in what was essentially one mass unstructured walkabout was that many lower-middle class Pakistanis suddenly aspire for things like 2-rupee newspapers and multiple chemist shops and cheaper schools teaching English and economic emancipation of women etcetc . . .and most of all, some amount of a multi-cultural society . . . ”

Waiting to board a flight recently, I walked into a bookstore to buy something to read on the plane. Scanning the rows of magazines, OutlookIndia caught my eye. 3 dirhams. Yup, definitely. Turned out to be great value for money and am now a regular reader, what with the free online edition too, the latest issue of which, incidentally, carries a copy of this article.

Why don`t we as Pakistanis demand more value for our money?

tahmed32 40:- yes, even I want to try towards driving a car into Pakistan as easily as I can into, say, Nepal. Which means, after Customs & Immigration, I pick up additional insurance and pay additional road tax at a point a few metres into the other country, then pick up the required ``emission check under control`` certificate yet another few metres in, and then tag a temporary local registration to the original one, and on my way.

Will let you know about the Jhung addresses in a bit . . . and shall surely want to touch base with you next time I am in Pakistan. Thanks for the inputs. Now I just got to find the blokes who got our lands, and can then retire to a feudal lifestyle.

yossarian 39:- yup, that was me, thanks for remembering. barcelona, wicked city, yes I`ve been there long long ago, the chiquitas is what it was then.

All this evacuee property talk reminds me of something ...

My mothers family is from Mymensing in Bangladesh. One fine day in the late seventies or early eighties we suddenly got a cheque in my mothers maiden name for a few rupees. Most amazing was that the name of the goverment department issuing that cheque, it was called, hold your breath: The ``Enemy property division`` of the Bangladesh goverment.

On further inquiry we found out that my mom`s ancestral home was being used as some goverment office or school and the Bangladesh goverment was paying us rent for this. This rent when split among all the brothers and descendents came to but a few rupees per head. What amazes me is that the breaucracy was able to track down the descendents of the original owners of that house, who were now spread all across India, just for the few rupees. We received just a few cheques before they stopped coming, just as suddenly as they had started.

There is a real nice movie by Mira Nair, ``Missisippi Masala`` which is about a Ugandan Indian family driven out by Idi Amin. The patriach (played by Roshan Sheth) still has dreams of getting back his property in Uganda by filing cases in the high court in Kampala.

Maybe someday, when my delusions get the better of me, I`ll stand in Dacca High court ``Milord... ``

Veeresh: Finally read your article. Very well written and entertaining, and look forward to the continuation. Some things of interest I found were your thoughts on ``thousands of sikhs running around rawalpindi``: rawalpindi being the place I grew up in (most of the time, since my father was posted around different cantonments during his career), i too wondered what it would be like. while one could see an odd sikh or two in lahore sometimes, i dont recall ever seeing one in rawalpindi. So, to see sikhs there again would be a bit like ``back to the future``.

I find it interesting that no one has yet commented on the policy of not allowing people to simply drive their cars through the border, given the inconvenience to passengers. This will no doubt happen in due course - although anything that is to the convenience of Citizen Joe is not high on the priority list of the babus of south asia i think.

You mentioned your parents are from jhang. After partition, my maternal grandfather received a house in jhang (``evacuee property`` or something, as it was called) in return for the home he left behind in India. It was a very nice house, very traditional and with a large courtyard. I havent visited it in decades given that my grandparents died in the 1960`s, but last year we (self, siblings, cousins) finally sold the house to a local fellow who used to run a small flour-making mill in jhang and may well have known your family. It is quite possible that the house belonged to your family, which would be interesting since I often wondered when young of the hindu family that owned the house and used to feel really sorry for them being forced to leave such a nice house where they must have had a lot of memories (as my parents did of our ancestral house in india). I can try to find out the address and will let you know in case it helps identify if this was your house.

Hi Veeresh,

Nice piece and hope to read the next instalment... and my condolences on your fathers death. I have always been wanting to ask you one thing... Are you the same guy who use to come on ``Good Morning India`` to show us what to look for while buying a second hand car?... and I still remember a very friendly bearded guy doling out tips on maintaining cars (I apologise if you are not)...

As a sailor you may have been to Barcelona, my current abode. If you happen to come there again let me know... the churitos and claras is on me.

R

Vereesh #12:``first of all, please send me an email at veeresh@chowk.com towards any back-up or logistical support required in India before/during your trip . . .``

FV #19: ``But seriously, do let us know when you visit. Veeresh is more likely to be a help since he lives in Delhi, and no one bothers to come to my Mumbai :( But if you do (Jinnah`s house!), get in touch at farzanavee@yahoo.com``

Thanks for the offers.

As a young teenager, my interest in meeting Indians centered around Gavaskar, Kapil Dev, Sandeep Patil, Viswanath etc. Would that have taken me to Delhi? As an elder teeanger and a twenty-something, it moved onto Tina Monim, Zeenat Aman, Sangeeta Bijlani and Ashwariya Rai. Would that have taken me to Mumbai?

Now, perhaps since I have realized that my dreams of becoming a sports star will remain unfiulfilled regardless of how many hours I spent at the local squash court, and perhaps since I have been married for too long, my interests have shifted to individuals like Premji, Murthy, Tata and Rekhi. I suppose that would take me to Bangalore.

Which is where I will be going. So if you can hook me up with someone there, it would be greatly appreciated.

Or if you can hook me up with front row seats to a Daler Mehndi or Jagjit Singh concert (or a seat on a live shooting of an Ashwariya Rai movie). That is what it will take to, ``overwhelm`` me.

I am actually consulting for a company, currently, which is run by two young Indians. They fit into the profile of the guy in Hollywood/Bollywood, i.e. young multi-millionaire entreprenuers. They are going to open up an off-shore practice. So if they want me to be a part of it, I will probably be in India regularly. If not, then I will probably be there every now and then - once every year or two.

In any case, I am quite a boring and conservative guy to be around. My father is the real party animal. He will probably be travelling around to the cities he lived in. So he may end up in your cities.......

plats #32 If these were real tears, it would be different. But these are crocodile tears. The same tears that urstruly used to shed about kashmiri women being raped, and the same tears that Jay sheds about honor killings in Pakistan.

These are the crocodile tears of a individuals who bent on scoring their stupid pakistan vs india points on one another. These tears are an insult to the dignity of those women who were actually raped, and of the individuals who were actually killed. These are the tears of those who are the same as the murderers and rapists themselves to the extent that they have no regard or respect for fellow human beings. That is why I get mad at these hypocrites.

nhk 35:- you are correct, Washington DC or Miami are probably scoring higher on the mugging and felonies than, say, Peshaware . . . but they do it without recourse to your religion/caste etcetc., and they have the media around too.


Kapitain 30:- I don`t like to generalise, but by and large, I find that those who didn`t lose anything, and may actually have benefited from others losing their all, tend to get more aggressive about the past. With those who have seen the horrors, the attitude is more like please let those who survived get along with our lives.

Satyamvada 29:- I think you refer to this . . . ````#18 An Indian in Pakistan on April 20, 2004
T-the-Boss, write up is not flowing as yet, also affairs of home and office front as well as workplace, but I have my notes alright . . . am placing a separate un-censored version after clearance from some of my friends here. ```` . . . I meant that I shall pre-clear some parts of my visit, since I did meet a few people in Pakistan who would be described as having sensitive positions and who helped in my getting some unique perspectives . . . and I may need to shield their identities as well as mix-n-match anecdotes. Observations shall be absolutely as I saw them, positive or negative. I did not say that they were only Pakistanis, there are non-Pakistanis I met in Pakistan, too.

Samundar 27 mere co-salt water:- it will have to be some of you Pakistanis abroad who go back to Pakistan and clean up the act, there will be a cost, no doubt, and sacrifice. I don`t think closing doors can help, nor is there any reason to be ashamed. Own up to facts, and that is enough for a scoiety, I think.

I think the best aspect for Pakistanis of having so many Indian middle class adrift in Pakistan in what was essentially one mass unstructured walkabout was that many lower-middle class Pakistanis suddenly aspire for things like 2-rupee newspapers and multiple chemist shops and cheaper schools teaching English and economic emancipation of women etcetc . . .and most of all, some amount of a multi-cultural society. (I would think, without any proof, that less than 33% of the Indian visitors actually even went near a cricket stadium, at least for the Tests . . .and if they don`t talk about it, then it is because they want their next visa too, even I am not going to write about certain parts of my trip for exactly that reason!!)

Sobia 24:- sorry, wasnt really checking internet too often, Insha Allah I will make my next trip in some comfort and also set up meetings with chowkies.

Storyteller 25:- yes, 3000 Sikhs adrift in Pindi . . .incidentally, the Sikh jathas managed to persuade both IR & PR that the same PR rake that brought them till the border was going to carry the whole lot till Amritsar. They got their way on that. From what I heard, after that, once the PR train reached Amritsar Station, the elderly people in the jatha literally forced the PR drivers / conductors / guards et al to enjoy the hospitality of the city, thus delaying the return of the rake to Attari/Wagah, thus delaying our entry into Pakistan admirably. These are small pointers.

NHK 21:- Kashmir seems to be a big time issue on the streets of Islamabad, and not just with the fundoos.

Thank you everybody . . . I hope to have the next segment out in a bit . . . as of now most people like what I say because . . . well because. Promise to start bringing out some hard truths soon, will you think the same of me because of what I am or because of the colour of my writing then?

# 33 Romair, Dost-mitter

Romair, I think Dost Mitter is right. I was a little surprised to find that Dost went to Peshawar & Khyber pass - in these days of Osama`s hunt & the area littered with spies & security people.

Frankly, I would have avoided despite my past military credentials and DG ISI an old school boy.

But the factors in his favour were the Canadian passport, Pakistani birth and family accompanying.

Also the tourism industry in the country is not well established where you simply hand your self over to a travel Package and keep seeing places. Making your own plan, arranging your own transportation etc is a difficult exercise even for the Pakistanis. If you know some one in Pakistan, there is no problem. Basically, only Frontier areas (Tribals) are unsafe.

I think we do not have as many street muggers, con man or pick pockets like some other countries.

Satyamvada # 26

(NHK, you fall into the same old game of playing ``equivalency``)

No. You are not right. If I am comparing the attitude of the security agencies, I am only comparing the attitude of the security agencies.

If I compare the UK immigration process, I am only doing that. And if I am comparing the Chinese industrial geowth, I am only doing that. I do not mean Pakistan is equal to UK or China.

May be we tend to get too sensitive on very minor issues.

Romair:
Here is one reason why Hindu Indians are apprehensive about their safety in Pakistan -Muslim Indians have no such fears- and it has nothing to do with the media or the state propaganda. The only memories they have of Pakistan is what they saw in Pakistan when they left the country and those are the memories they passed down to their children and grandchildren. They do not have any relative, friend or aquaintance left in Pakistan who can provide counter to this narrative. The few they who stayed behind were forced or felt compelled to become muslim, which did not help matters. Incidentally, I know a few Sindhi Hindus with relatives in Pakistan and they do not have such apprehensions, or at least not to that level.
The situation is different in Pakistan. While the children of Panjabi refugees had similar tales of horror to tell, most Pakistanis also have a friend or an aquaintance, if not a relative who has visited India once or more and can report back that the place is now safe for them. Moreover, the stereotype image of the Hindu projected in the Pakistani media - a daal-bhaaji eating coward (btw, I can read Urdu although the image comes across occasionally in the English press too!) - is not very threatening and quite the opposite of the stereotype of the `jihadi muslim` in India.
More visits by Hindus to Pakistan will provide an anti-dote to this image. I can tell you from an Indian experience. When I lived in Delhi, Karol Bagh, Patel Nagar and other refugee strongholds of Delhi were considered out-of-bound by Delhi muslims; one never saw a woman in burqa or a man in flowing beard. Then, a few visible muslims started to come to Karol Bagh for shopping and found out that their rupees were quite welcome there. And now, one is more likely to see a burqa in Karol Bagh than in Lahore`s Anarkali and Patel Nagar even has large muslim settlement. As more Hindus return from a safe visit to Pakistan, the old fears will likely dissipate.

Tahmed #31,

That is completely unfair, to dismiss someone`s reaction like that; no matter
how unsavory it may seem. Do memories have to be politically correct these
days as well ?

Referred memories can be a very important part of a person`s life. We have
had too many ``Jinnah said this, Gandhi/Nehru did that`` versions of
partition in the past 56 years - boardgames of the elite. Perhaps what we need
are real subaltern histories of partition, and individual perceptions of the horror
will play an important role in that.

p.s: Veeresh, very nice read. Sorry for the digression here. Look forward to the
coming installments.

kaptain #30 So, now we have the Pakistan variety of the hindutva parrots I referred to in my post below.

My family was one of those ``immigrating muslims`` whose bloodstains you talk about. I could tell you horror stories of what some of them went through that would make your hair stand. And yet, not one of them had anything but good to say about their hindu or sikh neighbors.

So spare me your crocodile tears. Individuals like you are no better than the indian variety of the kind I mention in my post below. It is individuals like you seek to perpetuate conflict from the comfort of your homes, without concern to what it means to the lives of the millions in India and Pakistan who are less fortunate than you, who need a good solid thrashing. That is my humble opinion.

I hope the train, still bears the mark of the blood stains when it last set out on a historic journey 56 years back on the same route. That time there were no cricket matches, but enough matchsticks to burn the immigrating Muslims.

I hope the footprints are still there on the train`s deck, so as to locate those who have been lost in eternity in that journey of end.

The paddy fields and the aroma do give an enchantment, but not enough to have forgotten the plight and screams-still-heard.

Anyways, good memories are to be retained and bad ones to be discarded for the diplomatic purposes. Can`t we stop being hypocrites? Whom are we trying to convince.

Veeresh,

You had in a previous message said that you may not say negative things
about your trip - so that you dont lose your Pakistani friends.

You should then tell the truth under an assumed name.
Hopefully, atleast some Pakistanis will wake up from their delusion.

#16 bongdongs

All the pakistanis in the i know have no fear of going to india. most of them have some family in india, who they plan to visit and get regular first-hand info from in addition to the movies. indian non-muslims on the other hand have no family in pakistan, hence their perception is via media. indian media is far less harsh on pakistan than the western one. veeresh has covered PTV which depicts a totally anti-indian mindset.

most indians dont even know that there are languages other than urdu in pakistan and religions other than islam in pakistan..media cameras give no impression of otherwise. whereas even hamidm knows of eating habits of telegus (hopefully not relatives)

Excellent narrative, Veeresh. Looking forward to the next episode.

Very sad to learn about your father`s demise.

C.

P.S. I too am guilty of advising you against going to Pakistan, but, as explained to you (two years ago?), my reasons were different. I didn`t think it wasn`t safe for you to go there. It is that, like many other Pakistanis I`m deeply ashamed of our country. I believe Pakistan should close its door on visitors while we go through a complete overhaul and cleaning, literally.

Nazar Hayat Khan said
``The problem is with the entrenched establishments (Security, ISI, Raw, Intelligence) on BOTH sides. It will take some time before they get mellowed down to accept each other without mistrust. They are the ones who create this aura of discomfort.``

NHK, you fall into the same old game of playing ``equivalency``.
There is a difference between - India and Pak - The Security, RAW are not in
control of Indian Govt affairs.

Most pakistanis play the equivalencey game - they try to equate MMA with BJP,
PPP with Congress etc. All this is nothing but Pakistani delusion. All the
parties in Pakistan are ``Islamic`` .

The institutionalized bigotry that exists in Pakistan is because, the Pakistani public
wants it and sees it as a way to become the ideal ``Islamic state and be rid of all
problems.

So dont equate India and Pakistan.

The thought of 3000 Sikhs running around in Rawalpindi is very intensely moving, for some reason.
i agree :)

hey veeresh, i left a msg for u on unplugged, asking if you would by any chance be dropping in to lahore, but i guess u didn`t read it, nor did u make it to lahore. In any case, this is a very interesting read, please do write the rest soon!

Hi Veeresh,
Good one. a perfect blend of reality and feelings

Veeresh, enjoyed the account so far. Looking forward to the rest.

Veeresh

Mine # 14

(since some of the fundamental issues of the state have not yet been fully settled)

Yours # 17

(everything always comes back to Kashmir . .)

I did not mean Kashmir. Kashmir is no more a burning topic in Pakistan since some years. You may have noticed this in your interactions here. The unsettled issues in the society that get hotly debated are the issues like the role of army, role of politicians, role of religion, democracy, progress. And this debate is all tied up in many unresovable knots - TNT, Constitution, provincial autonomy etc.

And there is a near 100% consensus of all parties on normalization of relations with India. Actually, by normalization, Pakistan would be killing many birds with one stone. The society fully understands it through its instincts and is all for the CBMs, which need to be extended to many other areas of civil society.

But the wooden statues of the establishment are neither clear-headed nor open-minded nor flexible to grasp this and this oppurtunity. And they continue to press on within their own fixated perceptions unmidful of the general mood of the masses. The elected Assembly and the elected Prime minister are as good as nothing.

# 11

please give us a break Romair

I have been an avid reader of articles and interacts on chowk, though I rarely post.

But you are again trying to spoil interacts on an excellent article into a pow-pow, jhow-jhow. Please desist, it is my earnest request

Veeresh:

Your account is touching without being overly emotional...``My son is fast asleep on the upper berth, the innocence of youth heading for the joys of adulthood, for him and me, it is about bonding on a trip back to the land we have only heard about, a foreign land of my fore-fathers? I pat my Indian passport reassuringly, wrapped in polythene and secured``...this says it all. Of course, I look forward to the rest with a few observations of Raghu, that would be interesting.

PS: and I missed meeting you in Delhi...was there around then...

---

Romair:

[I think Indians came with such apprehension, with a fearful picture of Pakistanis, that even if someone said, ``Hi`` to them or smiled at them, they would have been overwhelmed. Imagine a person coming in, fearing for his life, getting a free tea in a teashop. I guess he would be overwhelmed..... ]

So true. But this is what stereotypes are made of.

[Both of us are looking forward to meeting normal friendly people (with no horns on their heads). We will not be ``overwhelmed,`` if an Indian smiles at us. We will be expecting it.]

Indians will not only smile, we shake our heads in all directions, sometimes rotate them 360 degrees -- either because WE are overwhelmed or because we like to know what is behind us and before us at the same time. If you visit the N.East some people wear head gear with horns, and they are very friendly. And as the cow is almost human in our country...you gets horns again.

But seriously, do let us know when you visit. Veeresh is more likely to be a help since he lives in Delhi, and no one bothers to come to my Mumbai :( But if you do (Jinnah`s house!), get in touch at farzanavee@yahoo.com.

Veeresh: exhilarating read. More please!

I would have placed a ``real-time`` travelogue while on the move, but:-

a) Did not carry a camera and laptop for a variety of reasons, mainly it would reduce the observational note taking abilities, and also mark me as Joe-Tourist in the unreserved railway compartments/buses I was looking at travelling on.

b) In the 125 hours or so Delhi-to-Delhi, I slept for a total of 15 hours, the rest was spent in looking and talking and EATING. I used to be slim and trim . . .

Even taking a spiral-bound book out and writing in it got me more than a few queries . . . on both sides.

Yes, NHK Sirji, you are correct. the Government machinery on both sides, but more so in Pakistan, has the most to lose if things change (improve) in Pakistan. The answer lies in a lot of things, and exposure to the Indian middle class may just be the aspirational catalyst required for Pakistanis in Pakistan, I think. But this exposure to middle-class Indians needs to be put into extreme fast forward, and not just by route of movies/videos either.

But then everything always comes back to Kashmir . . . and don`t Pakistanis realise that increasingly Kashmir is the millstone/albatross around their necks, not so much India`s neck, anymore?

Now, this is a real time, pleasant surprise by VEERESH. I read about his being in ISLAMABAD on unplugged but was not exptecting a `traveloque` so soon. thought that since he is also from MITTAR`s land and will make us wait the same as mittar saab did. :)

now, its way to cool to hear from both. I am anxiously waiting for the next episodes.. make them real looooooooooooong ones.

#11
``Interestingly, I will be going to India this year, hopefully``

I dont know about others here, but this is one travelogue I keenly await, ROmair never fails to deliver! :-)

veeresh

I agree. It is a long way to go. The problem is not with the ordinary people.

The problem is with the entrenched establishments (Security, ISI, Raw, Intelligence) on BOTH sides. It will take some time before they get mellowed down to accept each other without mistrust. They are the ones who create this aura of discomfort.

Customs, immigration, police have same psyche on both sides - but this more towards the normal inefficiency and human failings.

As you said, the answer lies on more traffic on both sides - and frankly, more time. The Government machineries established in the last 30-40 years, geared to work against each other, need time to unwind.

Here I must give credit to the common folks, who despite the years of brain washing, have been the first to come out of that delibrately conditioned mind set. However, since some of the fundamental issues of the state have not yet been fully settled, a certain small segment of the society will display muddled perceptions and use the hackneyed phrases.

A great beginning Veeresh.

Did you try the kebabs?

Our kebabs are better then......


Hope to hear more about your trip.


Ras

Thank you all around for the condolences, as I mentioned, my father led a full life and we celebrate his evolution. There are aspects of what he did for people that I can not touch on this website, but suffice it to say that he always sought for and lived his truths.

I am going to try my best to keep the articles on pure observations. I shall also try to write as I speak, which is rapidly.

+++

Romair 11 . . . first of all, please send me an email at veeresh@chowk.com towards any back-up or logistical support required in India before/during your trip . . .

The ``warnings`` about going to Pakistan come from well meaning people, not just in India, who also read travel advisories as well as have probably reduced their risk taking capabilities. It is not as though they or we are scared as ``Indians``. It is just that Pakistan is perceived to be a dangerous place for everybody, period, including local Pakistanis.

Frankly, I have not seen so many guns displayed so openly, as in Pindi/Islamabad. So, there has to be a reason for the guns and subsequent worry, right? Moreover, I know ex-pat Pakistanis who think it is dangerous to go back to Pakistan, too, and I am not saying that to score points, please. (Not my style, you will accept?)

From what I understand from some of the diplomats and page-3 people I met at the Islamabad Club, the situation as regards safety of families in Islamabad and environs has improved over the past 12-18 months. Again, these were not Indians.

What do Indians think of Pakistanis? For that, sorry, you will have to watch PTV. In large doses. And see Pakistani plays. I think most of us think that you are very serious, sombre and formal people, given to large doses of pre and post function speeches. With Kashmir, religion and military on your minds to the exclusion of everything else. Now THAT can be dangerous for anybody, right?

Please also accept that we have had a few stereotype Pakistanis in India so far:-

a) The very very poor, who travel by train, the same train I took. More on that in my articles.

b) The very rich, very connected, very military and very educated creme-de-la-creme, who also seem to make the media all the time.

If anybody forms impressions in India, it is these two groups. What we now need is larger numbers of middle class tourists from both countries, regardless of religion.

Aside:- how many Indians know that the previous Chief Secretary/Punjab and current Chairman/Bank of Punjab is a Muslim man called ``Randhawa``? (Did you read the news reports on him slaping his junior, the current CS/Punjab, in public? I had a Sikh Signals Instructor called Randhawa, in India, and presumably the genes are the same, I can still hear my ears ringing . . . )


As for the food, I don`t want to eat anything but khichdi and curd-rice with black pepper and salt for the next two weeks. I have not been force fed like this in a while, including by the spooks, most of whom melted because the concept of a father and son traveling was just too humane and close to their own lives, I think. I can`t even talk about some of the places I went to, unless we meet up front, I guess.

+++

Ally 10 . . . yes we speak Jhangi Punjabi at home, but I am now married to a South Indian lady for the past 24 years (not her fault!) so the children speak about 4 Indian languages at home, plus English. But at weddings, which I don`t like to attend, the terrible jokes are still in Jhangvi. No, I did not visit Jhung, I am going to do that in regal style some day soon. With my mother.

+++

Vereesh: Looking forward to the rest of your write-up. All of you deserve a lot of credit for making the effort to visit Pakistan.

Did you get a chance to get to Jhang? Jhang (or Jhung, as you called it), is famous for three things: Heer, Abdus-Salam, and the center of sectarian violence in Pakistan. Pakistan`s main Sunni terrorist organization is called Jhangvi, and its parent political party wins its only seat from Jhang.

Jhang is (was) a small place. So if your father grew up there, maybe he know Dr. Salam?

Everything in this artlcle makes sense, except the following line: ``Many people, I would say around 90%, are ``warning`` me against going.``

What exactly would Indians be afraid of, when they toured Pakistan? Did they think people were going to shoot at them? Be rude to them? Try to physically harm them?

I just cannot understand what kind of picture Indians have of Pakistanis? What exactly has your government and media been feeding them? And why do they believe it? Is there a website that has an Indian version of what a, ``Pakistani,`` is presumed to look like? Does he have horns and tail and gun in his hand? :-)

I was initially unable to understand why so many Indians were, ``overwhelmed`` by Pakistanis. I mean the average Pakistani on the street is a friendly guy. But overwhelmingly nice?. Give me a break. Now, I know why Indians were overwhelmed. I think Indians came with such apprehension, with a fearful picture of Pakistanis, that even if someone said, ``Hi`` to them or smiled at them, they would have been overwhelmed. Imagine a person coming in, fearing for his life, getting a free tea in a teashop. I guess he would be overwhelmed.....

An Indian collegue of mine kept telling me that he was afraid the Indian team would get blown up. And he is someone who is big on peace, and has taken the time to get to know a lot of Pakistanis. So, one of the more informed Indians. Yet it took me a while to convince him that no one in Pakistan would do anything to harm the Indian team. And people would be friendly towards them.

A friend of mine told me that his nephew was informed that the nephew`s roommate, when he arrived in a North American university to study, would be a student from India. He said a few days before the kid left Pakistan, the father of his roommate-to-be contacted the nephew`s from India. He sounded extremely concerned and worried for his son. And kept trying to convince my friend`s nephew that Indians were friendly people, and that they did not hate Muslims, and that they would be able to get along. Apparently, he was concerned that the nephew may try to harm his son.

I heard this story with a group of teenaged Pakistanis, and we could not stop from laughing, out loud.

Interestingly, I will be going to India this year, hopefully. Not a single Pakistani has tried to stop me. In fact, they have been quite nonchalant about it, as if I were visiting any other country. My father, now in Pakistan, grew up in Indian cities, but hasn`t been back since. So he said he will accompany me, as he wants to visit the places where he lived. We have no fear, no apprehensions, no nothing, about Indians. Both of us are looking forward to meeting normal friendly people (with no horns on their heads). We will not be ``overwhelmed,`` if an Indian smiles at us. We will be expecting it.

Infact I am starting to think the Indians there will be surprised to find out that we don`t have horns on our head. :-)

I think the Indians really need to challege their govt. and their media on why they have tried to brainwash the population, so much, about Pakistan and Pakistanis. And start to question themselves about why 90% are scared to visit the place, when the reality of Pakistan, is so obviously different. Such misconceptions are usually the biggest barriers to peace.......

Anyways, good to see you enjoyed yourself in Pakistan. Did you try Phajjay Day Payee, Benazir Kulfa, Anarkali ki chaat, and Liberty ka paan in Lahore? As well as Karim kay somosay, Akbar kay somosay in Pindi. If not, then I am afraid, you didn`t really get a chance to see Pakistan. You will need to make another trip...........

Veeresh,

Do u guys speak Jhangvi Punjabi... it is very sweet tho i do not understand much of it now... my grandfathers land fell in Jhang and some in Faisalabad (lyllpur), when he migrated from Jullandhar...

Jhang district is very pretty, however Jhang city is a dump... as for Mai Heer`s mazaar, it still there but not well looked after at all... such a shame as she is such a legend...

enjoyed this! glad to hear that you didn`t have to go through that `report to police station everyday` routine.

Hello :)

veeresh:
First, my condolences to you and your family on your father`s demise. No matter, how much one is prepared for the event, when it comes it still is a great loss for the loved ones.

This is a real nice article. I think that this suits you very well. Keep it up! Look forward to your further adventures in `Pindi.

...very very nice...next instalment...please.

*Waiting for more*
Interesting!

veeru:

chuckled at these lines Most of them look like they do not know a fine leg from a chicken pakoda, but never mind, what a silly point to make when love is in the air.

and was saddened to hear of your father`s passing away...(dammit you did not make that left turn then to enable me to pay my respects...badmash!)

look forward to more

rgds

t

veeresh: Please accept my condolences on the passing away of your father.

I will comment later on the rest of your article.

Veeresh....

maan, your writing has improved tremendously.
All those long rambling meaningless sentences are gone.

Good article. Nice work.
Look forward to the remaining pieces.

veeresh,

my condolences on the passing of your father. as you described how he told his stories, i too wish i had been a listener. : )

a very `observational` account so far. . and the middle epilogue with the wheels screaming like dervishes in anguish, very haunting. you said so much right there.

patiently awaiting more. .
n~