A Sign of Things To Come?

Jay 29:- please let me know where I am going ga-ga about the welcome I have received in Pakistan during the cricket bonhomie? Beyond actual facts and some opinion, I do not think I go ga-ga.

Whippinzed 28:- ahem, so you caught on? Thanks. Yes, I should have caught on that the PR industry is doing well in Pakistan too. Everybody wants to be the page-3 writer. Sigh.

Omar 27:- Burger Class is about as much a generalisation as the NGO Circuit. That aside, I think it is high time the media in India and Pakistan got out of this mutual back-slapping mode. I mean, how many more times will we see Indian journos interviewing Pakistani journos and vice versa? Anyways, over & out, and if/when you come to India next, please take time out to go walkabout.

Interim, on the great Indo-Pak thaw, isn`t it interesting that nobody else from the media notices that we have Hinduja Ashok Leyland trucks on the Indian Army side and HinoPak trucks on the Pakistan Army side. and all have axles made in Pune and engine blocks in Chennai?

You also did not honour me with an answer to the ``why do Pakistani newspapers cost so much`` question?

veeresh -- you are being touchy because it`s not as if dawn wrote an editorial on it -- a staffer of the paper wrote a pretty straightforward article on something he saw on ptv -- the idea is not to show readers what india is like or isn`t like but to say something about ptv which is state run -- i think many discerning pakistanis can decide for themselves whether the tv show was representative of india or not (in any case it was filmed on location in lahore) -- as for my ``real agenda``, veeresh sahib, that is a laughable question, a question to which i only have to say that perhaps you`re reading a bit too much into it -- also, since you are apparently someone who writes frequently in the indian media, you would probably know that dawn is not known for having any ``real agenda`` (or otherwise) on india and that, like the hindu newspaper, we are quite balanced -- though i wrote the article in my personal capacity, i think my views do reflect the newspaper`s opinions on this -- as far as using ``moron`` is concerned, i would like to reiterate that what is uncalled for is comments by the interactor who posted on the board, to which i responded -- if you think that i am removed from reality for suggesting that the tv show was broadcast on orders from a very high level (i did not use the word, as you suggest, `highest`) then veeresh sahib all i can say is that sitting here in Pakistan and being a journalist for almost a decade (and being on the editorial board of a reasonably well-known newspaper) i think i would be in fair position to comment on how state-run PTV is run -- by the same token if you made an assertion or a judgement about doordarshan i would not go out of my way to make personal remarks on you, questioning your ability to make such an assertion/judgement -- for the simple reason that you live in india and probably are in a better position to make some sort of informed comment -- if you think that influential media in both countries is doing a disservice to pak-india ties then you haven`t been reading some newspapers properly -- i think much of the english press (which I assume what you meant by influential) in pakistan (and not just Dawn but The News, The Friday Times and The Daily Times) is quite in favour of the dialogue process -- the article actually clearly mentions that many young people in Pakistan feel that enough is enough and we need to move on -- to you, that means that the newspaper is harming indo-pakistan ties? amazing! -- the sorry thing is that it is not a gush piece on urmila but a comment on ptv -- i hope that is clear -- and i don`t necessarily agree that the `burger` class (another generalization if ever there was one) are writing gush stories -- many `burger` journalist colleagues of mine, in senior positions in the english media, are quite sceptical of both governments and so on -- i think it`s the ngo circuit people in pakistan who are more willing to believe that things have now actually changed --

veeresh#25: ``Which is sad, and which is what makes me toughy.``

A slip or simply a freudian slip here veeresh. ``toughy`` and ``touchy`` are pretty iterchangeable here but convey different meanings, yet they also convey your feelings (in this instance) without any loss! Wonderful. Simply wonderful.

Agree :Think Omar Sir, seems to have missed the point with his article and the subsequent responses indicate this. I guess this gush peice has a place in a style magazine (think it appeared there first) where most of the work is done by PRs for you (you just addd your by-line with a few edits). You could have done better for. I guess its the sign of the times!

Types of fanaticism,

Omar #6

A twig floating in the social turbulence of Pakistan, Omar has mistaken for a lone swallow and declared that summer is here. A lone swallow does not make summer, and it is not even a swallow.
My posts are based on the long-term social changes in Pakistan, symbolised by the legal and institutional changes. In the last 50 years there has never been any liberating legislation in the social arena, it has all been blasphemy laws, hoodood, and denigration of ahmadias. This social setting, reinforced by the k for kafir education has manifested itself as some trees being identified as non-Islamic, from Islamabad to Karachi they are being replaced by date palms, the Islamic trees. I have seen reports of it for the past few years, arjun trees that adorned the Jinnah road for more than half a century are being cut down, for being non-Islamic.
Omar, you could be a fanatic indo-pak peace lover, you are clutching fleeting images on a TV screen as symbols of fundamental change in pak social values and attitude towards India, and in that sense you are no different from the jihadis city council members of Karachi, who find some trees as non-Islamic. Fanaticism, what ever is its hue, always blinds you to the truth. Under the shadows of fanatic peace lovers like you, the killer weeds of jihad are flourishing in pakistan.
From dost mitter to veeresh are going ga ga about the welcome they have received in Pakistan during the cricket bonhomie, is it not possible that the Pakistanis were simply confirming and validating what they have studied, identifying Hindus is a curriculum requirements, and the Pakistanis are simply jubilant to validate their knowledge.
Instead of calling me moron, if you are a real peace lover, you could have written something about the ritual animal killings in pak backyards, to make the pak society less barbaric. You have stuck a label on me, not much different from the label of kafir stuck by the jihadists, to justify their responses.
Indo pak conflict is simply an outcome of the diverging social trajectory of the two societies. Kargill invasion after a relative peace of 25 years is the coming of age of the children of TNT. Omar, do not try to clutch the virtual entertainment images, they are only for entertainment. Even Osama can get a laugh out of Jerry Springer, he is no admirer of the US way of life, nor a jew lover. Wake up, jihadis are pi$$ing on your swag.

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ballu

there is a supressed thirst for indian classical music beyong the burger class in pakistan. i saw one khyber train documnetary and the tv crew was interviewing folks right out of a lhaur muhalla, and a group of musicians were talking in urdu in a clamor, only some of it was translated by the tv guys (owen bennet jones?). i was surprised that they were interested in attending a bhimsen joshi concert, and were lamenting decline of guru-shishya parampara style teaching. tv guys missed most of the stuff that they were saying in translation. so i suspect the thaw will allow more normal (less moneyed) musical folks to interact WITHOUT patronage of the burger class..kind of like how bhimsen would sing in relatively small towns like Dombivli (a remote suburb out of bombay). only problem may be who supplies the ``pegs``?

Hello Omar 23:- ````I don’t know why you’re being so touchy, . . .```` . . . let me try to answer rationally . . .

a) As an Indian who has been interacting with Pakistanis and Pakistan for a very long time now, and with an open mind, I am very touchy about your article on Urmila M and her television documentary over PTV simply because, for decades now, I have been trying to explain to Pakistanis that India is not what they see on the Bollywood screens. Now PTV goes and decides to take on one more Bollywood example as representative of things Indian, to top it, within an Indian-Pakistani context. And you, as well as Dawn, take it further. What is your real agenda in something like this, Sir, and I ask a related question at the same time:- why does your newspaper cost 12-15 rupees in Pakistan while mine costs me 1.50/2.oo rupees in India?

b) As an interactor on this board, I think the word ``moron`` is uncalled for, towards anybody. ``Removed from reality`` is a term better used for some body who tries to portray that even a small tv programme needs the explicit say-so and direction and ``approval from the highest level``, and that such a programme ``is a sign of better things to come``. In my 5 days in Pakistan I have learnt how much the Pakistan media, lionised and darling of the opinion makers in India, has lied to us in India, and to tell you the truth, I do feel like a ``moron`` for that.

c) And finally, I am being touchy because I have just begun to understand how much damage the influential media in both our countries has done to this complete Indo-Pak issue for the past 57 years. And your article came across, to me at least, as a patronising slap on my face.

OK?

Pakistan & India, per Pakistan media, are much more than gush gush stories by the ``burger`` class, or long winded opinions by the retired. I think your article made me ``touchy`` because it was simply one more in a series, and it kind of broke the camel`s back. I am truly glad that your good lady wife and you plan to travel by bus in Pakistan. Personally, I think the real triumphs of human endeavour, which is what makes Nations, is taking place out there in Pakistan, and I just do not see reportage of that.

Especially from a woman`s point of view. And therefore, when the best you can rustle up, Omar (and believe me, I am an admirer of your writing) is a gush-gush piece on Urmila M, then what do you expect from me?

Which is sad, and which is what makes me toughy.

It is better to leave the official PTV-s and Doordarshan outta this `cultural exchange`- let the Geo TV and other channnels get beamed over Indian soil and then let the market forces take over from there. Let the lollywood accept legal rights of distribution to Indian Movie Distributers and vice-versa. Let automatic performing rights be given to Indian classical musicians and other artists and vice-versa- no government clearances should be asked for.
IMHO, All this state sponsered blah blah actually cuts no ice across the two citizens.

Veeresh – that interactor was called a ‘moron’ not because he was a reader who was being looked down upon but because he had launched a personal attack and made all kinds of assumptions about what I had written and myself which were quite offensive – I don’t know why you’re being so touchy, why would I ever call you or anyone else on this site a moron – also, veeresh, may I remind you that please don’t keep making assumptions about people whom you have never met or know – I don’t need to tell you or other people how real or unreal my ‘journalistic pretensions’ are – I am afraid your statement that I would “simply not understand why travel on a train between India and Pakistan is…” is quite off the mark – of course it would be of interest to anyone, regardless of their ‘journalistic pretensions on the subject”, but the point I was trying to make was that it wouldn’t be of relevance if the idea is to write an article based on a TV show which was about an Indian film actress coming to Pakistan – and she didn’t come or leave by train – hahaha I don’t know or claim to know everything on the subject – don’t know why your feeling so touchy or personally offended – as for the young people in Pakistan whom you met, the ones who “don’t seem to care much about tv shows in Pakistan and reportage on them either”, well, that’s your opinion based on a trip by train to Pakistan – there is no ‘fit’ or un-‘fit’, just a traveller’s opinion – it would be dangerous to generalize from that – actually a lot of young people I know – and yes, they would travel by bus or by train (me and my wife plan to do that this summer) – would actually be quite interested in such shows – that’s precisely where I got the idea to do the article in the first place – godot: thanks for your observation –

omar_r_qureishi
Your editorial on textbooks was a good one.

this is a bit too much..first our nice girls were paired with all those pathan khans, now they are on ptv where old grouches want to watch their gyrating hips? Plus urmila has no hips whatsoever..i kinda of think asha parekh would be a BIGGER hit with gyrations..

:-)

Omar 17 . . .

1) reference to the context on looking down upon your reader had to do with your using the word ``moron`` in responding to him/her ``reader``. Since I am not in the writing profession, am just an amateur, I wouldn`t know more. Nor do I patronise. Nor do I call you a moron in return.

2) you are correct, YOU would simply not understand why travel on a train between India & Pakistan is extremely relevant for anybody with journalistic pretensions on the subject, and tv shows on the Indo-Pak subject therein. Since YOU already seem to know everything there is on this subject, on with the opinions.

Meanwhile, the young people in Pakistan that I met, the sort who travel in trains and buses, especially the ones who travel between India & Pakistan on trains, they don`t seem to care much about tv shows in Pakistan and reportage on them either. There is a fit.

jay

cut it out dude...all i see here is a group of very reasonable pakistanis looking forward to the possibility of good relations...you are out of line trying to be nasty to them....save your posts for urstruly...

Omar, the title of your article is “A sign of things to come?” with the thought “What is extraordinary is that this programme was shown on PTV. A few years ago something like this would have been unimaginable.”

One does not need to be a master of subtleties and nuances to catch your drift. By just seeing the title and reading the catch-phrase, it’s quite obvious that your article is one of hope. It is something Jay clearly understood...and hated.

Jay accuses Pakistanis of being indoctrinated and brain-washed in anti-India propaganda, but is blinded to see where he stands: a victim of the same hatred he accuses the Pakistanis. It beats me why he thinks that he’s not a victim of the same indoctrination he accuses the Pakistanis. Knowing him so well, he will choose to skip this critical question and will reappear with his next moronic statement on another board. He is running blind in the dark tunnel of ignorance and chances are that he will never see the light. When it comes to Pakistan, the dictionary he carries does not contain words such as reason and logic, and in which Pakistan equates to hate. His diatribes against Pakistan are nothing more than that of a half-crazed man who seriously needs a therapist. Only the fully-crazed appreciate his blabbering. He’s the one-eyed king in a group of the blind.

You are an asset to Chowk. Chowk needs more individuals like you. By all means interact, but beware.

veeresh -- please don`t use the pretext of old age to make a point -- also, i am not sure how you assume that i as a writer would look down on a reader -- trust me that does not work if you want to be in the profession for the long haul -- as for your gullible remark, that is actually quite laughable because of the assumptions that readers on this site seem to be making in this case -- your assumption being that you thought I bought urmila`s crying or otherwise -- the point isn`t that she was acting or not, the point is that state run PTV showed this one-hour long documentary on sunday night, something that one would have never imagined less than a year back -- now if someone has an issue with that argument i am all ears but it`s quite another story to make assumptions/presumptions on what the writer of the piece thinks about his readers (which you seem to have done) -- i mean veeresh if you wrote an article i don`t think i would use that as a base to make a personal assessment or try and give you `advice` on how you perceive your readers -- i wonder if you realize that your comment itself is quite patronizing, especially the reference to your old age -- that is one point and the other is that ptv`s news bulletins have to change and be purged of the crap they say about india all the time (obviously something that people like jay did not get) -- as for going on the samjhota express, we all know you went recently on it but if i want to write about a TV show why would i travel on a train to india -- i have seen several wagah attari ceremonies and never cried -- was quite disgusted actually by the show of bravado and by the way there is a proposal by both govts to tone down these ceremonies (let`s see if it actually materializes) --
cloudysky -- no its probably not moneeza hashmi`s doing, probably at a much much higher level -- godot -- thanks for your observation but i didnt lose my cool actually -- this is just a website yaar -- something that i come on more of late partly because the internet is always on in my office room -- it wasn`t so much about losing my cool but what made me angry was all the absurd conclusions he had come to, the ridiculous connections/inferences he had made, and, i suppose, the inability of whoever moderates this board to see that and stop interactors from making personal attacks based in bad logic and specious or non-existent reasoning -- i dont come on this website to deal with morons and when i came across one such moron i thought i should at least let him know -- and actually i dont mind the interaction either -- for me, being a professional journalist, it`s just another way of seeing how a semi-media outlet (virtual in this case, though) works and also of interacting directly with my readers -- gujjubania -- true colours? hahah -- actually having a ph.d. doesn`t make you less of a bigot or impartial observer of things just as being illiterate doesn`t necessarily mean that you are a narrow-minded moron -- and by the way gujju, the chief of the indian army -- gen n c vij said (and this is taken from the samachar.com website -- which by the way is of indian newspapers) that infiltration had dropped by 90 per cent --
coolal -- actually no `raw nerve` was touched -- but it`s not good to take things lying down, and actually he did make a personal attack, which was only responded to in kind -- in any case it does get a bit annoying when someone does not (a) get your point; (b) and then uses that to launch a personal attack on you and at the same time makes conclusions/inferences which you never suggested -- i didnt refute the thing about the kashmir show on PTV because i thought it didnt deserve a refutation, as in PTV is known to have such silly anti-India shows, but it`s not known to air such (albeit trivial) shows on an indian film actress`s visit to Lahore -- but for the record -- kashmir file is a show on ptv which comes probably every sunday so it must have come before the show i wrote about -- as for approving such shows which have hate-filled propaganda read the above -- `call myself a journalist` -- well yes coolal -- why, what do you do for a living? i hope you let us know so one of us can also ask you the same question --

Omar #6 . . . if I may, with the edge over you of age?

a) You never never ever never look down on your constituency (reader) nor do you underestimate his/her point of view.

b) As far as Urmila M crying on the border goes, Maaaan, she is one kick-ass actress. Everybody cries at the Wagah/Attari ceremonies. Something like a bride crying just before she tucks in for dessert.

c) You want to really see people crying on the Indo-Pak border, I suggest you take a look at travellers on the India-Pakistan train, especially on the late-night Wagah - Lahore ``Samjhauta Express``. A better name would be ``Vardee Daakoo Slow Passenger via Mogulpura``. As a matter of fact, I would strongly suggest you take a ride on this train incongito preferably with camera and wire-tap. Now that would be a really good show for PTV, no?

Have you seen Urmilla Matondkar in ``Kaun``? Especially close to the last scenes?

Maaaaan, I refuse to believe that ALL Pakistani journalists are so guillible.

warm regards/Veeresh Malik