Meenakshi

Godhra and Gujrat have clear relationships with the existing ideologies of Islam and Hindutva in India and the subcontinent. So Urstruly # 28 is quite right. Ideologies, worldviews, and religions cannot be separated from the actions of people who are motivated and inspired by those dogmas. If the intellectual class suits its political and moral convenience by denying this very close relationship then people will always be convinced of their own innocence, and will be preparing for the next round of bloodshed til the last man or woman is left alive.

Coming back to the article, Meenakshi, you invited trouble by locating it in a hot spot. When it comes to social issues, subtlety is lost on us.

urstruly # 31 - may we please go forth in this debate on fact? So, please let me know where in my posts on this thread (or others) have I specified or propagated any theory based on the assumption that everywhere it is that ``Muslims live in slums``?

Of the 4 slums mentioned by me by name, just about one, the one at Signal Phata/Godhra, can be considered to have a majority of ``Muslims living in strategic slums.`` Another one may have a large number of Bangladeshi refugees, and these Muslims, per historical evidence as well as fact, are apparently not Muslim enough for you. The other two happen to have Hindu and Christian dominance, respectively.

Please do feel free to ask me anything you would like to know about how demographics impact democracies. The growth and evolution of slums for vote bank purposes, as part of State sponsored efforts, are not restricted to any one community.

Thank you. You are so predictable. I knew you would fall into this one when I was writing it.

Urstruly#31:
``This post is written by a gentleman who claims to have held responsible position as a consultant and advisor to his government. Now he believes and propagates an opinion that since the allegation of Muslims being terrorists is corroborated through Qura`n and hadith therefore it is true. And that the authenticity of Quaranic and Hadith interpretations and who and how they are done - whether they are qualified or not - true or not - has no bearing on the matter.

In other words he is implying that since he has evidence that Muslims are terrorists, therefore, they are terrorits however, the authenticity of that evidence is irrelevant. And I don`t beleive that he is someone who lives in cukooland.``


This is nonsense! You are twisting my words to mean something that simply do not mean? Where did I say that:
-I believe quran teaches terrorism?
-Muslims are terrorists?
Read again what I said ``People who have accused islam (not me!) of supporting terrorism quote the quran and hadith to support their case`` How does this say/mean that I accuse islam of any such thing.`` As for muslims, there are 150 million of my muslim countrymen none of whom has been accused of being a terrorist, at least outside the country. I have also visited your country where the people I met were all people like me and they were all muslims.
I would never make a statement such as muslims are terrorists, not because it is not politically correct but because it is not true.
Now, I would very much appreciate it if you could read my post again and rethink your conclusions.

AnOrdinaryHindu#33
I agree with most of what you said. This is also the point I was trying to make; if there is hatred among Hindus, it is shaped by history and social stratification.

tahmad

you want more evidence? did you see how clever and vile they are? you see how they time their posts and the way they post them one after the other; you see how they munch, crunch and twirl their own words. Did you see Ms. Satpathy?

Urstruly:
``you see how they munch, crunch and twirl their own words. ``

It`s you, my friend, who is ``munching, crunching and twirling`` others` words. Even your statement about my claiming to be an advisor to my govt. was a stretch from my earlier job as a lowly policy analyst - a mere clog in a wheel.
You could have simply said that there is hatred among Hindus, too, and I would have agreed. Indeed, you would have been preaching to the convert. But when it came to the cause of that hatred, I thought you were off-base, because at least I am not aware of any Hindu scripture which makes a distinction between a Hindu and a Non-Hindu.
And are you serious about ``you see how they time their posts and the way they post them one after the other``? I consider myself as an individual here and dont represent India, Hindus or Canada; and I assume the same about you too.
Now, please try to match your rhetoric with logic and let me know where I said that:
-I believe quran teaches terrorism?
-Muslims are terrorists?
...and please no more ``munching, crunching and twirling``.

Urstruly:
``you see how they munch, crunch and twirl their own words. ``

It`s you, my friend, who is ``munching, crunching and twirling`` others` words. Even your statement about my claiming to be an advisor to my govt. was a stretch from my earlier job as a lowly policy analyst - a mere clog in a wheel.
You could have simply said that there is hatred among Hindus, too, and I would have agreed. Indeed, you would have been preaching to the convert. But when it came to the cause of that hatred, I thought you were off-base, because at least I am not aware of any Hindu scripture which makes a distinction between a Hindu and a Non-Hindu.
And are you serious about ``you see how they time their posts and the way they post them one after the other``? I consider myself as an individual here and dont represent India, Hindus or Canada; and I assume the same about you too.
Now, please try to match your rhetoric with logic and let me know where I said that:
-I believe quran teaches terrorism?
-Muslims are terrorists?
...and please no more ``munching, crunching and twirling``.

Urstruly:
I have begun to feel that you write these baffling posts to attract attention to yourself,because I find no logic in your anti-thesis/accusations/criticisms/fact representations and whatever fare you indulge in.

An `O` Hindu:
Hii..You accuse me of `inviting trouble` by putting Meenakshi at a hot spot.But publication of posts at suitable spots is the prerogative of the Chowk editors/staff and I had no choice in it.In any case this is my first ever post and I had no idea what so over that it would end up pulling so many strings..

Dost-mittar:
Hii.. :)
`loose ends` is regretted and your take on religious affiliation is reciprocated.

Veeresh:
You had asked me about the possibility of an underlying reference to M.F Hussain`s `Meenaxi`.Well no..Haven`t even seen the film though I am very much exited about .I heard its songs.`Yeh rishta` and `Duan Dhuan` are splendid ,divine music indeed.A.R Rehman simply rocks...doesn`t he?

so why are the hindus blood-thirsty?

ignoring urstruly`s rhetoric, and after doing apropriate adjustment for various numbers, this question needs answering.

One possiblity is to deny, hindus are not blood-thirsty. This is not true, since hindu mobs have killed, not necessarily in the name of religion, but so what?

In terms of behavior with muslims, hindus have passive-agressive behavior. They will not do a direct assault, but attempt to press buttons, do an ``unglee`` every once a while. If muslims resort to violence (as they seem prone to), the hindus then retaliate out of age-old fears. So whats special about murderoushindus? I think its a question of clapping, we need two hands to clap.

Sikh killing stuff is different.

The funny thing is Pakistanis like Urstruly have been studying since childhood, in every year of their school in classes III - XII about ` the faith and political ideology of Hindu genocidal maniacs`.

In spite of this, he STILL has doubts whether Hindus are genocidal maniacs or not so he is asking for further `examination`. Urstruly clearly did not pay attention in school, why? (Perhaps it was coeducational?)

Archana

I regret your shortsighted reply. I do write to attract attention, but not towards myself; I write to attract your attention to yourself. You gotta look yourself in me.

Dost

You are such a vile character that you make me almost belive you, everytime I talk to you.

Sadna

I test these beliefs that were instilled in me through my seconadry education....regretfully I always find them to be true. What I am looking for is an idol breaker and what I find is one who sells idols.

Urstruly:
``You are such a vile character that you make me almost belive you, everytime I talk to you``

You still haven`t told me where did I say/imply that:
-I believe quran teaches terrorism?
-Muslims are terrorists?
on this thread or any other thread?
And may I remind you that when some of your co-religionists here, including the one you were addressing your posts to, were cheering Yankee troops to Iraq and Afghanistan in the name of fighting terrorists, I was in the opposite camp.

urstruly must be using some sort of a time machine - his techniques are getting more and more better - has he gone back to the time of Grand Spanish Inquisitions!

tut, tut urstruly - you are a mirror of Jay. I wish the guys who own your two consortia learn to be like the original urstruly (going back a long long time) and Jay (atleast back then there was a consistency in style, syntax, content, typos, errors etc - these days the old adage of too many crooks and broth come to mind).

Urstruly #43
``I test these beliefs that were instilled in me through my seconadry education....regretfully I always find them to be true. What I am looking for is an idol breaker and what I find is one who sells idols. ``

If you were stupid enough not to pay attention to the truth in your textbooks, why blame others for your own stupidity?

Urstruly #31 I read veeresh`s post #26 to which you refer, and I will agree that he is making fine distinctions on the Gujerat murders when there is no excuse for what happened there and the facts are well known: the police stood by while muslims were being brutalized. If I had the time or the stamina, I would start an argument with him on this and indeed he and I once had a long argument with him on this point and obviously it didnt do much good. However, unlike you, I dont see this as an indication of perversity on his part, but simply that he gets unduly defensive when it comes to Gujerat. You also point to other chowk posts by Indian posters.

HOWEVER, I would like you to think of the following points:

1. Veeresh also visited Pakistan, and has as you know been writing a series of interesting and postive articles about it. If he really hated all muslims, why would he bother visiting Pakistan? He would be like Jay (the Pakistan expert who has never visited Pakistan). And perhaps if you met Veeresh in real life, he would take you to some real cool eating places in Delhi. More seriously, what I mean is that while one may dislike what someone writes on chowk, that does not mean that one would hate that person in real life.

2. As I recall, when those Gujerat riots were taking place, while a few India posters like harimau tried to justify them as retribution for Godhra, many Indian chowkies were opposed to it.

3. There is more to India than chowk posts. Much, much more. Nothing anyone writes on chowk can represent a country of one billion people with an increasingly dynamic economy and culture.

(I had more points, but gotto run now - this is not an excuse).

tahmed32 # 47 - thank you for the interact.

I do get in an ``explanation mode`` when communal riots, or any commercial religion based friction, gets viewed in black & white, as in the case of Gujarat.

Please appreciate, the very basic ethos of commercial religion is about contol of the economy through control over people`s minds. Commercial religions, centralised like most or decentralised like Hinduism, are probably the most successful business models around, if longevity and profit are two parameters. Think about this, first, please, without any of the my religion/your religion, my country/your country baggage.

Next, this, in my experience (not opinion) reduces most frictions between religions and their communities therein to very quantifiable time-line based mathematical equations. The questions of majority and minority and brute strength versus quicksilver action are also mathematical equations. Further bring in strife betwixt and within religions, and the equations get more complicated. Can anybody, then, say that this is this and it is black and white?

At such time, yes, I do object to painting Godhra - Gujarat as a simple ``Hindu versus Muslim`` issue, or one where it is ``State versus religion/minority``.

Is it anybody`s contention that ALL Muslims and ALL Hindus in Gujarat, or even Godhra, were in blissful love with each other?

About Pakistan, I visited because there was a natural curiosity about the land my fore-fathers came from, like, say, Irish Americans? I am glad you think they are positive, I write it like I see it, and some of the ``established`` media have already chosen to draw swords against me with references to some of my interacts. So be it.

Nobody justifies, but facts are facts, and to state that something is solely State versus Religion/Group/Caste/Tribe/Colour etc reveals a lack of knolwedge about real intricacies of life.

In any case, the legal system of our country seems to be moving along well enough.

And yes, after coming back from Pakistan, I am even more convinced that India is a better place for Muslims than Pakistan. That is a simple true fact.