Dost Mittar May 3, 2004
#108 Posted by dost_mittar on May 7, 2004 9:33:39 am
Romair:
Who elects/selects the village council?
Who elects/selects the village council?
#107 Posted by nakhok on May 7, 2004 9:00:49 am
# 104 zamir1
+++++
he kept Mujib in line – never agreeing with his separatist ideology
+++++
zamir1 would have been far more honest to acknowledge that the ``separatist ideology`` was actually the hallmark of the West Pakistan based ruling oligarchy.
Mujib wasn`t the first East Pakistani to be accused of ``separatist ideology``. Even as eminent a person as Sher-e-Bangla Fazlul Huq was accused of the same as soon as his Jukto Front (that included Suhrawardy) won a landslide elections victory in 1954 reducing the Muslim League to just 9 seats in the East Pakistan Legislature. Sher-e-Bangla Fazlul Huq was promptly denounced as an ``Indian agent`` by the West Pakistan based establishment and the Fazlul Huq led Jukto Front government was unceremoniously dismissed within a couple of months of that massive election victory.
Zamir1 has it all backwards. It was the West Pakistan based ruling oligarchy (and not those that won the 1970 elections) that was into ``separatist ideology``. It could never envison ceding or even sharing power with the ordinary citizens, a majority of whom just happened to be from East Pakistan. It tried to lord over the East Pakistanis as long as it could. And when that became impossible, it was this ruling elite that seceded from the majority of Pakistanis in 1971.
In 1971, in a moment of candor, General Tikka Khan had declared that he was only interested in the land in East Pakistan and not in its people. Driven by this ``separatist ideology`` it didn`t take him long to earn infamy as the ``Butcher of Bengal``. And after the 1971 partition, he went on to earn infamy as the ``Butcher of Balochistan`` as well.
The ordinary citizens of (West) Pakistan remain disenfranchised to this day. The ruling establishment continues to fraudulently project itself as the repository of all patriotism in Pakistan to justify the dictatorship that makes sure that the Corporate interests of the military always takes precedence over the nation`s interests.
The same military that had once resorted to genocide in 1971 in a desperate attempt to preserve its perks and privileges, remain just as determined to this day to remain as the ultimate arbiter of who gets to steal in Pakistan and how much.
+++++
he kept Mujib in line – never agreeing with his separatist ideology
+++++
zamir1 would have been far more honest to acknowledge that the ``separatist ideology`` was actually the hallmark of the West Pakistan based ruling oligarchy.
Mujib wasn`t the first East Pakistani to be accused of ``separatist ideology``. Even as eminent a person as Sher-e-Bangla Fazlul Huq was accused of the same as soon as his Jukto Front (that included Suhrawardy) won a landslide elections victory in 1954 reducing the Muslim League to just 9 seats in the East Pakistan Legislature. Sher-e-Bangla Fazlul Huq was promptly denounced as an ``Indian agent`` by the West Pakistan based establishment and the Fazlul Huq led Jukto Front government was unceremoniously dismissed within a couple of months of that massive election victory.
Zamir1 has it all backwards. It was the West Pakistan based ruling oligarchy (and not those that won the 1970 elections) that was into ``separatist ideology``. It could never envison ceding or even sharing power with the ordinary citizens, a majority of whom just happened to be from East Pakistan. It tried to lord over the East Pakistanis as long as it could. And when that became impossible, it was this ruling elite that seceded from the majority of Pakistanis in 1971.
In 1971, in a moment of candor, General Tikka Khan had declared that he was only interested in the land in East Pakistan and not in its people. Driven by this ``separatist ideology`` it didn`t take him long to earn infamy as the ``Butcher of Bengal``. And after the 1971 partition, he went on to earn infamy as the ``Butcher of Balochistan`` as well.
The ordinary citizens of (West) Pakistan remain disenfranchised to this day. The ruling establishment continues to fraudulently project itself as the repository of all patriotism in Pakistan to justify the dictatorship that makes sure that the Corporate interests of the military always takes precedence over the nation`s interests.
The same military that had once resorted to genocide in 1971 in a desperate attempt to preserve its perks and privileges, remain just as determined to this day to remain as the ultimate arbiter of who gets to steal in Pakistan and how much.
#106 Posted by Romair on May 7, 2004 8:23:05 am
Following is why feudalism, and any political system based on the power of feudal, is terrible for any country:
``Pakistan remands rape accused
Six men have been remanded in custody by a court in Pakistan`s Punjab province following an alleged revenge double rape.
A landowner is accused of attacking two women after the village council said he could avenge his honour.
The other five are alleged to have abetted the landowner.
The two women have spoken of the stigma facing them and their families, saying they would rather die than live in shame in the village.
A magistrate in the town of Kabirwala, about 250km (160 miles) south of Lahore, remanded three of the accused in police custody for four days, and sent three to prison on judicial remand for two weeks.
``I cannot go back to my parent`s house, I cannot go in front of my husband. God please just bury me in the ground.``
Police say the village assembly, or panchayat, consisting of around 50 people mainly from the landlord`s clan, authorised the revenge.`` (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3692985.stm)
I can make a bet that either the landowner himself, or the landowner`s boss, is an MPA or MNA in Pakistan`s assemblies. And he probably belongs to the PPP or PML. The only reason these cases are now getting prosecuted is because PPP or PML do not have complete control of the govt. If they did, then obviously, they would never prosecute their own colleauges.
I think this gives a good idea, of why, the rural population is slowly turning to the religious parties. While the religious parties segregate women and may veil them etc., yet I don`t think they rape them, like the feudals of PPP and PML do......
``Pakistan remands rape accused
Six men have been remanded in custody by a court in Pakistan`s Punjab province following an alleged revenge double rape.
A landowner is accused of attacking two women after the village council said he could avenge his honour.
The other five are alleged to have abetted the landowner.
The two women have spoken of the stigma facing them and their families, saying they would rather die than live in shame in the village.
A magistrate in the town of Kabirwala, about 250km (160 miles) south of Lahore, remanded three of the accused in police custody for four days, and sent three to prison on judicial remand for two weeks.
``I cannot go back to my parent`s house, I cannot go in front of my husband. God please just bury me in the ground.``
Police say the village assembly, or panchayat, consisting of around 50 people mainly from the landlord`s clan, authorised the revenge.`` (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3692985.stm)
I can make a bet that either the landowner himself, or the landowner`s boss, is an MPA or MNA in Pakistan`s assemblies. And he probably belongs to the PPP or PML. The only reason these cases are now getting prosecuted is because PPP or PML do not have complete control of the govt. If they did, then obviously, they would never prosecute their own colleauges.
I think this gives a good idea, of why, the rural population is slowly turning to the religious parties. While the religious parties segregate women and may veil them etc., yet I don`t think they rape them, like the feudals of PPP and PML do......
#105 Posted by Romair on May 6, 2004 7:56:13 pm
malang #95: ``As I know Gohar Ayub is a retired captain – graduated from PMA. So how come he doesn’t have BA degree?``
Gohar Ayub, like his father Ayub Khan, is a graduate of Sandhurst. Every year or so, Pakistan sends a cadet or two to Sandhurst in UK. The seat is reserved for the top cadet in Pakistan. Perhaps neither Sandhurst, nor PMA, gave a BA degree, back then. I know PMA does so nowdays.
The military is basically a meritocracy. And generally the people who become Generals tend to be the ones who graduated at the top of their class as cadets. Nowdays, however, a lot of the top graduates leave. Or they join the Civil Services, when the opportunity comes. During Ayub Khan and Gohar`s days, military was still considered as good a profession as Civil Services.
However, Gohar Ayub left as a Captain, anyways. I don`t think he went to the Civil Services. He went straight into civilian life, perhaps a businessman. Somewhere along the line, he wisely married into the Saifullah and Khattak family. And hasn`t looked back since. His own son, had he joined the military, would have been a Major (around my seniority), now. However, he is now an MNA and a Parliamentary Secretary of Finance - the same seniority as a Lt. General.
Gohar Ayub`s wife is an MNA also. Gohar, I believe, recently has passed his BA exams. And is, thus, now a candidate for the Senate, or for the National Assembly, if someone drops a seat.
Ayub Khan made it to the top of the Army, on his own merit. However, his family members are now part of the, ``system,`` and are guaranteed to make it to the top of Pakistan, with or without merit.
Interestingly, Abdia Hussain, another feudal, has recently passed her BA exam also. However she lost in the election. She was the Minsiter of Science and Technology of Pakistan, at one time, with a high school qualification in interior decorating, or something similar.
Gohar Ayub, like his father Ayub Khan, is a graduate of Sandhurst. Every year or so, Pakistan sends a cadet or two to Sandhurst in UK. The seat is reserved for the top cadet in Pakistan. Perhaps neither Sandhurst, nor PMA, gave a BA degree, back then. I know PMA does so nowdays.
The military is basically a meritocracy. And generally the people who become Generals tend to be the ones who graduated at the top of their class as cadets. Nowdays, however, a lot of the top graduates leave. Or they join the Civil Services, when the opportunity comes. During Ayub Khan and Gohar`s days, military was still considered as good a profession as Civil Services.
However, Gohar Ayub left as a Captain, anyways. I don`t think he went to the Civil Services. He went straight into civilian life, perhaps a businessman. Somewhere along the line, he wisely married into the Saifullah and Khattak family. And hasn`t looked back since. His own son, had he joined the military, would have been a Major (around my seniority), now. However, he is now an MNA and a Parliamentary Secretary of Finance - the same seniority as a Lt. General.
Gohar Ayub`s wife is an MNA also. Gohar, I believe, recently has passed his BA exams. And is, thus, now a candidate for the Senate, or for the National Assembly, if someone drops a seat.
Ayub Khan made it to the top of the Army, on his own merit. However, his family members are now part of the, ``system,`` and are guaranteed to make it to the top of Pakistan, with or without merit.
Interestingly, Abdia Hussain, another feudal, has recently passed her BA exam also. However she lost in the election. She was the Minsiter of Science and Technology of Pakistan, at one time, with a high school qualification in interior decorating, or something similar.
#104 Posted by zamir1 on May 6, 2004 7:04:35 pm
nakhok #103
In third world countries where abuse of power is common, these type of things are not rare. What we need to remember about Suhrwardy sahib is that in-spite of all the abuses he had to endeavor he remained a firm Pakistani nationalist, he kept Mujib in line – never agreeing with his separatist ideology and his family still lives in Pakistan.
In third world countries where abuse of power is common, these type of things are not rare. What we need to remember about Suhrwardy sahib is that in-spite of all the abuses he had to endeavor he remained a firm Pakistani nationalist, he kept Mujib in line – never agreeing with his separatist ideology and his family still lives in Pakistan.
#103 Posted by Ally on May 6, 2004 6:28:54 pm
DM,
I havent really heard an azan for Tuhujjad that i can remember, my mum reads it sometimes, in fact, a lot of aunty ji`s in Pak and abroad do... one of my younger religiously minded cousins reads it sometimes as well, he says that at that time the world is asleep and there is no noise, this helps in concentration and makes you feel that much closer to God, also they say that at that time whatever you ask of God has more of a chance of being granted, which is why i think many aunty ji`s (mum included) make that extra effort...
which is also the reason they do gyarveN (11th) da khatam, jumey raat da khatam, etc and make offerings to the shrine of a particular saint, and if a shrine is not in the near vicinity then sending the offering (usually sweet food) to the mosque is also common (esp in the UK)...
In the UK, i sometimes see my mum do these Khatams (as she usually knows the lunar calendar days better than us), and in Pakistan its very common in our family... being Gujjar Milk obviously plays a big part in the offerings, kheer, seviaN, rass gulley, and firni are my favourites and at least one or two of these dishes is made, sometimes spiced milk with pistachio and almond nuts are also blessed upon and given to us (kids) to drink... fruit and flowers go without saying... sometimes mum has made this stuff in advance and does a khatam after tuhujjad namaz, and when the family wakes there is blessed kheer for breakfast!!!
It is mainly women that read this prayer, probably cause they are the ones who can be bothered and usually have much more things to ask God (stop my hubby from beating me, let him get a decent job so we can get out of this shit hole, please help my kid stop taking drugs, let my daughters get married in decent home, etc, etc)... It is quite common in our house to have some kind of khatam valla miTha ya miThai around, either because some aunty ji sent it or cause mum did the khatam, after which she also sends some of it to other aunty ji`s...
this is becoming less common in the UK now, suppose due to time limits and cause most aunty ji`s can afford to spend six odd months a year in Pak, but when we were kids, it was great, we used to get to taste flaN aunty ji`s kheer and flaN aunty ji`s seviaN, most my aunty ji`s being propa GujjariaN as well...
haw hai, maybe this is the reason so many maulvis are fat! endless supply of khatam valli kheer!!!!
I havent really heard an azan for Tuhujjad that i can remember, my mum reads it sometimes, in fact, a lot of aunty ji`s in Pak and abroad do... one of my younger religiously minded cousins reads it sometimes as well, he says that at that time the world is asleep and there is no noise, this helps in concentration and makes you feel that much closer to God, also they say that at that time whatever you ask of God has more of a chance of being granted, which is why i think many aunty ji`s (mum included) make that extra effort...
which is also the reason they do gyarveN (11th) da khatam, jumey raat da khatam, etc and make offerings to the shrine of a particular saint, and if a shrine is not in the near vicinity then sending the offering (usually sweet food) to the mosque is also common (esp in the UK)...
In the UK, i sometimes see my mum do these Khatams (as she usually knows the lunar calendar days better than us), and in Pakistan its very common in our family... being Gujjar Milk obviously plays a big part in the offerings, kheer, seviaN, rass gulley, and firni are my favourites and at least one or two of these dishes is made, sometimes spiced milk with pistachio and almond nuts are also blessed upon and given to us (kids) to drink... fruit and flowers go without saying... sometimes mum has made this stuff in advance and does a khatam after tuhujjad namaz, and when the family wakes there is blessed kheer for breakfast!!!
It is mainly women that read this prayer, probably cause they are the ones who can be bothered and usually have much more things to ask God (stop my hubby from beating me, let him get a decent job so we can get out of this shit hole, please help my kid stop taking drugs, let my daughters get married in decent home, etc, etc)... It is quite common in our house to have some kind of khatam valla miTha ya miThai around, either because some aunty ji sent it or cause mum did the khatam, after which she also sends some of it to other aunty ji`s...
this is becoming less common in the UK now, suppose due to time limits and cause most aunty ji`s can afford to spend six odd months a year in Pak, but when we were kids, it was great, we used to get to taste flaN aunty ji`s kheer and flaN aunty ji`s seviaN, most my aunty ji`s being propa GujjariaN as well...
haw hai, maybe this is the reason so many maulvis are fat! endless supply of khatam valli kheer!!!!
#102 Posted by nakhok on May 6, 2004 6:28:54 pm
# 100 by Mantolives
+++++
Still no acknowledgement of the fact that you misled, either intentionally or unintentionally, a lot of people by suggesting that Suhrawardy didn`t come to Pakistan till late in 1948.
+++++
It is Mantolive who is, intentionally or unintentionally, trying to mislead the readers. Would he care to explain why he thinks the last Prime Minister of Bengal would camp in Lahore on the morrow of partition instead of in East Pakistan or even in Karachi? As it turns out, Suhrawardy was stuck in Calcutta tarred by the Muslim League establishment and barred from entering Pakistan. Here`s from a recent article in DAWN where the author laments that when Suhrawardy tried to enter Pakistan after the partition, he was dubbed as a traitor and was not allowed to enter Pakistan:
http://www.dawn.com/2003/09/08/op.htm
DAWN, Karachi, Pakistan
08 September 2003 Monday 10 Rajab 1424
A model of political rectitude
By Roquyya Jafri
..... When Pakistan came into being, Bengal was faced with extensive riots. Suhrawardy stayed back in Calcutta to help the riot-affected people. The irony was that when he wanted to come to Pakistan, he was dubbed as a traitor and was not allowed to enter Pakistan. .....
excerpt from Banglapedia: National Encyclopedia from Bangladesh
``Suhrawardy did not come to Pakistan immediately after partition. ..... he stayed back in Calcutta engaging himself in a peace mission along with Gandhi. On the other hand, his relations with the Muslim League high command, now at the helm of affairs of the new state of Pakistan, were far from cordial. In 1949, his membership of the Pakistan Constituent Assembly was terminated by the Liaquat government on a plea of not being a permanent resident of the country.``
They say that history repeats itself. Anyone who knows how ``Field Marshal`` Ayub Khan victimized Suhrawardy will know that the pattern has been repeated by all susbsequent military dictators in Pakistan:
http://www.dawn.com/2003/09/08/op.htm
DAWN, Karachi, Pakistan
08 September 2003 Monday 10 Rajab 1424
A model of political rectitude
By Roquyya Jafri
..... On October 7, 1958, acting in collusion with General Mohammad Ayub Khan, General Iskander Mirza declared martial law and dismantled the constitutional system. All political parties were banned and political activity of all kinds was outlawed. This sweeping demolition of democracy was followed by political witch-hunt.
The military rulers promulgated an extraordinary edict to harass politicians. It was called the Elected Bodies Disqualification Order (EBDO). Under this draconian order, political activity was not only banned but vindictive action was initiated against politicians. The high point of this conspiracy was that Suhrawardy was put behind bars, the charge being treason. .....
..... To receive medical treatment Suhrawardy went to London. On his way back home, he took a brief break in the Lebanese capital of Beirut. There on December 5, 1963, Suhrawardy died. It was reported at that time that he died of heart attack in his hotel room, with no friend, no relative near him. .....
+++++
Still no acknowledgement of the fact that you misled, either intentionally or unintentionally, a lot of people by suggesting that Suhrawardy didn`t come to Pakistan till late in 1948.
+++++
It is Mantolive who is, intentionally or unintentionally, trying to mislead the readers. Would he care to explain why he thinks the last Prime Minister of Bengal would camp in Lahore on the morrow of partition instead of in East Pakistan or even in Karachi? As it turns out, Suhrawardy was stuck in Calcutta tarred by the Muslim League establishment and barred from entering Pakistan. Here`s from a recent article in DAWN where the author laments that when Suhrawardy tried to enter Pakistan after the partition, he was dubbed as a traitor and was not allowed to enter Pakistan:
http://www.dawn.com/2003/09/08/op.htm
DAWN, Karachi, Pakistan
08 September 2003 Monday 10 Rajab 1424
A model of political rectitude
By Roquyya Jafri
..... When Pakistan came into being, Bengal was faced with extensive riots. Suhrawardy stayed back in Calcutta to help the riot-affected people. The irony was that when he wanted to come to Pakistan, he was dubbed as a traitor and was not allowed to enter Pakistan. .....
excerpt from Banglapedia: National Encyclopedia from Bangladesh
``Suhrawardy did not come to Pakistan immediately after partition. ..... he stayed back in Calcutta engaging himself in a peace mission along with Gandhi. On the other hand, his relations with the Muslim League high command, now at the helm of affairs of the new state of Pakistan, were far from cordial. In 1949, his membership of the Pakistan Constituent Assembly was terminated by the Liaquat government on a plea of not being a permanent resident of the country.``
They say that history repeats itself. Anyone who knows how ``Field Marshal`` Ayub Khan victimized Suhrawardy will know that the pattern has been repeated by all susbsequent military dictators in Pakistan:
http://www.dawn.com/2003/09/08/op.htm
DAWN, Karachi, Pakistan
08 September 2003 Monday 10 Rajab 1424
A model of political rectitude
By Roquyya Jafri
..... On October 7, 1958, acting in collusion with General Mohammad Ayub Khan, General Iskander Mirza declared martial law and dismantled the constitutional system. All political parties were banned and political activity of all kinds was outlawed. This sweeping demolition of democracy was followed by political witch-hunt.
The military rulers promulgated an extraordinary edict to harass politicians. It was called the Elected Bodies Disqualification Order (EBDO). Under this draconian order, political activity was not only banned but vindictive action was initiated against politicians. The high point of this conspiracy was that Suhrawardy was put behind bars, the charge being treason. .....
..... To receive medical treatment Suhrawardy went to London. On his way back home, he took a brief break in the Lebanese capital of Beirut. There on December 5, 1963, Suhrawardy died. It was reported at that time that he died of heart attack in his hotel room, with no friend, no relative near him. .....
#101 Posted by nakhok on May 6, 2004 3:26:20 pm
# 100 Mantolives
+++++
Still no acknowledgement of the fact that you misled, either intentionally or unintentionally, a lot of people by suggesting that Suhrawardy didn`t come to Pakistan till late in 1948. +++++
And still no acknowledgement by Mantolives of the fact that I had already refuted his ridiculous contention in earlier posts (say, # 66).
Inadvartently or intentionally Mantolives is trying to mislead the readers. Why on earth would Suhrawardy, the last Prime Minister of Bengal, choose to camp in Lahore on the morrow of partition instead of either in East Pakistan or in Karachi? Anyone can see the absurdity of Mantolive`s claim.
I am not sure what Mantolives (# 44) was trying to prove by associating Suhrawardy with a Lahore postal address from October 1947 to January 1948. Anyway, I have no need to refute it because not even the Liaqat Ali Khan government gave credence to Mantolive`s absurd contention -- in 1949, Suhrawardy`s membership of the Pakistan Constituent Assembly was terminated by the Liaquat government on the plea that he wasn`t a permanent resident of the country!
Suhrawardy was the Prime Minister of United Bengal till partition. He was forced to stay back in Calcutta as Nazimuddin with the backing of Liaqat Ali Khan and Jinnah, was annointed East pakistan`s leader on 14th August 1947. To Suhrawardy`s credit, he made good use of his exile in India by joining hands with Gandhi to restore peace in the city of Calcutta which he had bloodied the previous year by playing along with Jinnah`s Direct Action. This is quite well documented in a lot of books. It is captured even in the widely viewed ``Gandhi`` by Richard Attenborough.
And here is a direct quote from Banglapedia (National Encyclopedia of Bangladesh) :
``Suhrawardy did not come to Pakistan immediately after partition. ..... he stayed back in Calcutta engaging himself in a peace mission along with Gandhi. On the other hand, his relations with the Muslim League high command, now at the helm of affairs of the new state of Pakistan, were far from cordial. In 1949, his membership of the Pakistan Constituent Assembly was terminated by the Liaquat government on a plea of not being a permanent resident of the country.``
+++++
Still no acknowledgement of the fact that you misled, either intentionally or unintentionally, a lot of people by suggesting that Suhrawardy didn`t come to Pakistan till late in 1948. +++++
And still no acknowledgement by Mantolives of the fact that I had already refuted his ridiculous contention in earlier posts (say, # 66).
Inadvartently or intentionally Mantolives is trying to mislead the readers. Why on earth would Suhrawardy, the last Prime Minister of Bengal, choose to camp in Lahore on the morrow of partition instead of either in East Pakistan or in Karachi? Anyone can see the absurdity of Mantolive`s claim.
I am not sure what Mantolives (# 44) was trying to prove by associating Suhrawardy with a Lahore postal address from October 1947 to January 1948. Anyway, I have no need to refute it because not even the Liaqat Ali Khan government gave credence to Mantolive`s absurd contention -- in 1949, Suhrawardy`s membership of the Pakistan Constituent Assembly was terminated by the Liaquat government on the plea that he wasn`t a permanent resident of the country!
Suhrawardy was the Prime Minister of United Bengal till partition. He was forced to stay back in Calcutta as Nazimuddin with the backing of Liaqat Ali Khan and Jinnah, was annointed East pakistan`s leader on 14th August 1947. To Suhrawardy`s credit, he made good use of his exile in India by joining hands with Gandhi to restore peace in the city of Calcutta which he had bloodied the previous year by playing along with Jinnah`s Direct Action. This is quite well documented in a lot of books. It is captured even in the widely viewed ``Gandhi`` by Richard Attenborough.
And here is a direct quote from Banglapedia (National Encyclopedia of Bangladesh) :
``Suhrawardy did not come to Pakistan immediately after partition. ..... he stayed back in Calcutta engaging himself in a peace mission along with Gandhi. On the other hand, his relations with the Muslim League high command, now at the helm of affairs of the new state of Pakistan, were far from cordial. In 1949, his membership of the Pakistan Constituent Assembly was terminated by the Liaquat government on a plea of not being a permanent resident of the country.``
#100 Posted by MantoLives on May 6, 2004 1:24:19 pm
I agree with HP`s post 88...
According to some historians Suhrawardy had been thought of as the natural candidate for the post of premiership (suhrawardy himself had this opinion as is evident from his letters) but his shortsightedness in Calcutta (which tainted the League with violence) had by then come under a lot of criticism and he would have proved disastrous at that point. Naturally the soft spoken but very intelligent Jazz loving gentleman Liaqat Ali Khan was preferred.
Nakhok,
Still no acknowledgement of the fact that you misled, either intentionally or unintentionally, a lot of people by suggesting that Suhrawardy didn`t come to Pakistan till late in 1948. I quoted the address from the letters he wrote to Jinnah, Nehru, Gandhi and Mountbatten in October/November/December 1947 ... where his address is always of Davis Road Lahore.
Please revisit my post 44.
-YLH
#99 Posted by nakhok on May 6, 2004 1:24:03 pm
# 95 by malang
+++++
As I know Gohar Ayub is a retired captain – graduated from PMA. So how come he doesn’t have BA degree?
+++++
Well, a degree by itself doesn`t always ensure a degreed qualification!!
General Pervez Musharraf had questioned Benazir Bhutto`s educational qualifications. It is another matter that this was an overkill as the General managed to keep her out of the Parliament by other means:
DAWN, Karachi, Pakistan
07 May 2002 Tuesday 23 Safar 1423
www.dawn.com
Musharraf says role of army being considered: Future setup
excerpt
...About return of Benazir Bhutto, president Musharraf said she didn`t leave because of me. She ran away because she was facing prosecution for corruption. ``If she comes, she will be taken to court, and justice will take its course. And if she really comes, it is, moreover, not even clear whether she is actually qualified to be a candidate. We want educated people in power. And her level of education is unclear to date,`` he said...
Well, General Pervez Musharraf`s minions, if not the General himself, must have overheard the ensuing snickers. So, just two months after publishing General Pervez Musharraf`s less than complimentary comments on Benazir Bhutto`s educational attainments, DAWN published a glowing report on the General`s educational achievements:
DAWN, Karachi, Pakistan
Wednesday July 03, 2002-- Rabi-uss-Sani 21, 1423 A.H.
www.dawn.com
Musharraf qualifies for president`s office
By our correspondent
ISLAMABAD: General Pervez Musharraf qualifies for the office of the president as he possesses post-graduate degrees required by the constitutional package, said Lt-Gen (retd) Tanvir Naqvi here on Monday.
Naqvi, who heads the National Reconstruction Bureau (NRB), said that President Musharraf had secured different degrees over the years in line with his career in Pakistan Army and other relevant institutes and universities. President Musharraf did his Masters in Defence and Strategic Studies from the National Defence College (NDC), which is affiliated with the Quaid-I-Azam University, Islamabad, Naqvi continued.
He said that President Musharraf was a graduate from the Punjab and Balochistan Universities. ``There is no problem as far his education.`` Naqvi said that by the time a soldier reaches the level of a general officer, he gets equipped with educational degrees by undergoing various courses at the Staff College Quetta, National Defence College (NDC) and others. ``Besides these, a soldier undergoes war courses and others spread over more than 1,000 hours,`` said the NRB chief.
+++++
As I know Gohar Ayub is a retired captain – graduated from PMA. So how come he doesn’t have BA degree?
+++++
Well, a degree by itself doesn`t always ensure a degreed qualification!!
General Pervez Musharraf had questioned Benazir Bhutto`s educational qualifications. It is another matter that this was an overkill as the General managed to keep her out of the Parliament by other means:
DAWN, Karachi, Pakistan
07 May 2002 Tuesday 23 Safar 1423
www.dawn.com
Musharraf says role of army being considered: Future setup
excerpt
...About return of Benazir Bhutto, president Musharraf said she didn`t leave because of me. She ran away because she was facing prosecution for corruption. ``If she comes, she will be taken to court, and justice will take its course. And if she really comes, it is, moreover, not even clear whether she is actually qualified to be a candidate. We want educated people in power. And her level of education is unclear to date,`` he said...
Well, General Pervez Musharraf`s minions, if not the General himself, must have overheard the ensuing snickers. So, just two months after publishing General Pervez Musharraf`s less than complimentary comments on Benazir Bhutto`s educational attainments, DAWN published a glowing report on the General`s educational achievements:
DAWN, Karachi, Pakistan
Wednesday July 03, 2002-- Rabi-uss-Sani 21, 1423 A.H.
www.dawn.com
Musharraf qualifies for president`s office
By our correspondent
ISLAMABAD: General Pervez Musharraf qualifies for the office of the president as he possesses post-graduate degrees required by the constitutional package, said Lt-Gen (retd) Tanvir Naqvi here on Monday.
Naqvi, who heads the National Reconstruction Bureau (NRB), said that President Musharraf had secured different degrees over the years in line with his career in Pakistan Army and other relevant institutes and universities. President Musharraf did his Masters in Defence and Strategic Studies from the National Defence College (NDC), which is affiliated with the Quaid-I-Azam University, Islamabad, Naqvi continued.
He said that President Musharraf was a graduate from the Punjab and Balochistan Universities. ``There is no problem as far his education.`` Naqvi said that by the time a soldier reaches the level of a general officer, he gets equipped with educational degrees by undergoing various courses at the Staff College Quetta, National Defence College (NDC) and others. ``Besides these, a soldier undergoes war courses and others spread over more than 1,000 hours,`` said the NRB chief.
#98 Posted by sadna on May 5, 2004 10:15:15 pm
harimau #77
Thanks, that was informative.
If I am right, booth capturing became more risky after TN Seshan and the EC encouraged video evidence from anyone who cared to record it, hotlines from N. Delhi to district headquarters and made it the norm for even faxed complaints to be quickly investigated.
But in remote rural areas, it would be logistically too difficult to catch every bit of fraud because finally it is humans who man the booths and there is a limit to what they can do. This practice of designating `sensitive` and `hyper-sensitive` voting booths for purposes of making adequate security arrangements in advance comes from that, imo.
Thanks, that was informative.
If I am right, booth capturing became more risky after TN Seshan and the EC encouraged video evidence from anyone who cared to record it, hotlines from N. Delhi to district headquarters and made it the norm for even faxed complaints to be quickly investigated.
But in remote rural areas, it would be logistically too difficult to catch every bit of fraud because finally it is humans who man the booths and there is a limit to what they can do. This practice of designating `sensitive` and `hyper-sensitive` voting booths for purposes of making adequate security arrangements in advance comes from that, imo.
#97 Posted by dost_mittar on May 5, 2004 8:32:32 pm
Romair:
``P.S. You are from a country that has the second highest population of Muslims in the world. I am a bit surprised you haven`t heard of Tahajjud...... ``
...you will be even more surprised what I don`t know about Hindu rituals!
HP:
Your explanation re. shia-sunni azaans makes sense.
nakhok:
Thanks for the info.
``P.S. You are from a country that has the second highest population of Muslims in the world. I am a bit surprised you haven`t heard of Tahajjud...... ``
...you will be even more surprised what I don`t know about Hindu rituals!
HP:
Your explanation re. shia-sunni azaans makes sense.
nakhok:
Thanks for the info.
#96 Posted by veeresh on May 5, 2004 8:08:18 pm
Romair 91 - hey, I pray too, early in the morning, first thing as soon as I`ve woken up . . . I thank somebody I don`t know as yet for the fact that I am still breathing . . . if I can see a mountain or a water body that`s better otherwise a city skyline will do too . . . maybe you should try that, this way, for the rest of the day, you feel holy.
#95 Posted by malang on May 5, 2004 8:07:51 pm
I have a question, if anyone can answer.
As I know Gohar Ayub is a retired captain – graduated from PMA. So how come he doesn’t have BA degree?
#94 Posted by nakhok on May 5, 2004 8:07:50 pm
# 62 dost-mittar
+++++
Re. the land reforms in East Pakistan, I wonder if the reforms were easier to implement because most of the hated landlords were hindus.
+++++
It can certainly be argued so. But that`s not quite the whole story. Bengal did have a tradition of activism by the province`s have-nots. In fact, even West Bengal has managed to have the best record in land reforms among states of independent India.
When elections were first held in 1937 under the Government of India Act, 1935, Shere-e-Bangla Fazlul Huq rode to power as United Bengal`s first Prime Minister as the leader of the Krishak Praja Party (Peasants and Sharecroppers` Party).
And in opposing the zamindars, the Krishak Praja Party had certainly not selectively let off the Muslim zamindars out of consideration for religious solidarity. Sher-e-Bangla Fazlul Huq directly contested Sir Khwaja Nazimuddin in the 1937 elections in a constituency that was basically the latter`s zamindari. Sir Khwaja Nazimuddin was a leading zamindar, a polished politician, first cousin to the Nawab of Dhaka and an Executive Member. Fazlul Huq heading his Krishak Praja Party (the Party of sharecroppers) told the voters that ``he came from a family having no resources.`` He declared that ``by the grace of God,`` he would abolish zamindari ``within the shortest possible time,`` and that the ``peasantry of Bengal were dearest to his heart.`` Needless to day, Shere-e-Bangla of K.P.P. handily defeated Sir Khwaja Nazimuddin of the Muslim League in a constituency that more or less comprised of the the latter`s zamindari.
Sher-e-Bangla Fazlul Huq`s differences with Jinnah go way back to the days of Lucknow Pact. This is how a Bangladeshi writer (Jamal Hasan) has described it:
http://www.bangladesh-web.com/news
News from Bangladesh
8th November, 1997
Pre-partition Bengal Muslims and M.A.Jinnah
By Jamal Hasan
..... The Lucknow Pact of 1916 was a precursor of this divergence. Jinnah had successfully negotiated for separate Muslim electorate and weightage for Muslims in the Hindu majority provinces in exchange for weightage for the Hindu minority in Bengal. Sher-e-Bangla A.K. Fazlul Huq, as the unquestioned leader of the Bengali Muslim peasantry, could immediately sense the pitfalls of the Lucknow Pact. The Sher-e-Bangla realized that his constituency has been put at a disadvantage vis-a-vis the predominantly Hindu zamindars of his province. .....
..... The Lucknow Pact left Bengali Muslims with only 40 percent of the elected seats in the Legislative Council even though they constituted 52.6 percent of the population. The episode was the first serious conflict between Bengali Muslims` political rights and Jinnah`s objective. Unfortunately, it wasn`t the last. .....
Sher-e-Bangl Fazlul Huq supported joint electorate and wanted the elimination of the extra weightage given to the Hindu minority in Bengal because he knew fully well what was to the advantage of the Muslim peasantry of his province. Jinnah was just as aware of what was to the advantage of the aristocracy in UP and to the mercantile class on the west coast. That is why he continued to favor separate electorates and the retention of extra weightage for the Muslim minority in UP in exchange of extra weightage for the Hindu minority in Bengal.
The Lucknow Pact was a precursor to the mindset that led to the collapse of Jinnah`s Pakistan in 1971. Parity and separate electorates had been invoked in the west wing to erode the electoral strength of the east wing. Policies were adopted for the ``over all good of Pakistan`` which, in practice, meant that East Pakistan had to sacrifice for the good of the privileged classes in West Pakistan symbolized by the army and by the 22 families earmarked by economist Mahbubul Huq to illustrate the concentration of wealth.
+++++
Re. the land reforms in East Pakistan, I wonder if the reforms were easier to implement because most of the hated landlords were hindus.
+++++
It can certainly be argued so. But that`s not quite the whole story. Bengal did have a tradition of activism by the province`s have-nots. In fact, even West Bengal has managed to have the best record in land reforms among states of independent India.
When elections were first held in 1937 under the Government of India Act, 1935, Shere-e-Bangla Fazlul Huq rode to power as United Bengal`s first Prime Minister as the leader of the Krishak Praja Party (Peasants and Sharecroppers` Party).
And in opposing the zamindars, the Krishak Praja Party had certainly not selectively let off the Muslim zamindars out of consideration for religious solidarity. Sher-e-Bangla Fazlul Huq directly contested Sir Khwaja Nazimuddin in the 1937 elections in a constituency that was basically the latter`s zamindari. Sir Khwaja Nazimuddin was a leading zamindar, a polished politician, first cousin to the Nawab of Dhaka and an Executive Member. Fazlul Huq heading his Krishak Praja Party (the Party of sharecroppers) told the voters that ``he came from a family having no resources.`` He declared that ``by the grace of God,`` he would abolish zamindari ``within the shortest possible time,`` and that the ``peasantry of Bengal were dearest to his heart.`` Needless to day, Shere-e-Bangla of K.P.P. handily defeated Sir Khwaja Nazimuddin of the Muslim League in a constituency that more or less comprised of the the latter`s zamindari.
Sher-e-Bangla Fazlul Huq`s differences with Jinnah go way back to the days of Lucknow Pact. This is how a Bangladeshi writer (Jamal Hasan) has described it:
http://www.bangladesh-web.com/news
News from Bangladesh
8th November, 1997
Pre-partition Bengal Muslims and M.A.Jinnah
By Jamal Hasan
..... The Lucknow Pact of 1916 was a precursor of this divergence. Jinnah had successfully negotiated for separate Muslim electorate and weightage for Muslims in the Hindu majority provinces in exchange for weightage for the Hindu minority in Bengal. Sher-e-Bangla A.K. Fazlul Huq, as the unquestioned leader of the Bengali Muslim peasantry, could immediately sense the pitfalls of the Lucknow Pact. The Sher-e-Bangla realized that his constituency has been put at a disadvantage vis-a-vis the predominantly Hindu zamindars of his province. .....
..... The Lucknow Pact left Bengali Muslims with only 40 percent of the elected seats in the Legislative Council even though they constituted 52.6 percent of the population. The episode was the first serious conflict between Bengali Muslims` political rights and Jinnah`s objective. Unfortunately, it wasn`t the last. .....
Sher-e-Bangl Fazlul Huq supported joint electorate and wanted the elimination of the extra weightage given to the Hindu minority in Bengal because he knew fully well what was to the advantage of the Muslim peasantry of his province. Jinnah was just as aware of what was to the advantage of the aristocracy in UP and to the mercantile class on the west coast. That is why he continued to favor separate electorates and the retention of extra weightage for the Muslim minority in UP in exchange of extra weightage for the Hindu minority in Bengal.
The Lucknow Pact was a precursor to the mindset that led to the collapse of Jinnah`s Pakistan in 1971. Parity and separate electorates had been invoked in the west wing to erode the electoral strength of the east wing. Policies were adopted for the ``over all good of Pakistan`` which, in practice, meant that East Pakistan had to sacrifice for the good of the privileged classes in West Pakistan symbolized by the army and by the 22 families earmarked by economist Mahbubul Huq to illustrate the concentration of wealth.
#93 Posted by nakhok on May 5, 2004 8:07:50 pm
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_18-12-2003_pg3_1
Daily Times, Pakistan
Thursday, December 18, 2003
EDITORIAL
Talking about ‘Fall of Dhaka`
..... The Muslim League reached an agreement over separate electorates with the National Congress in a joint session at Lucknow known as the Lucknow Pact of 1916. The Muslims of Bengal were not given a fair allocation of seats (they demanded 50 per cent on the basis of population) under separate electorates and appealed to the All India Muslim League to agitate the demand, but to no avail. When the Bengal Muslim League failed to elicit a response from the central party in 1920 it encouraged Bengali leaders to turn to the Hindus for support, arriving at what was later known as the Bengal Pact. Thus the truth is that the Muslim League leaders from the United Provinces dominated it and were most reluctant to reopen the question of representation as that would have threatened the exaggerated quotas of seats they had won for the Muslim minority areas. In 1930, AK Fazlul Haq denounced the Lucknow Pact and called for its revision. The same year the Bengal League did not send its delegation to the All-India Muslim League session at Allahabad (1930) where Allama Mohammad Iqbal spoke of a Muslim state in the Northwest of India. The Bengalis also boycotted the 1932 session of the party convened to consider the Communal Awards of 1932.
Then in 1935 the central League decided to contest the coming elections. And it decided to stuff the Bengal Muslim League with non-Bengali and Urdu-speaking office-bearers. The 54-member Central Parliamentary Board had only eight Bengali seats. And when the session was called, only two members from Bengal attended and they were not Bengalis! After that all changes made in the structure of the Bengal Muslim League from the centre excluded the Bengali-speaking Bengalis, replacing them with either non-Bengali residents of Bengal or Urdu-speaking Bengalis. No secretary of the All-India Muslim League was to be from Bengal: ``No Bengali was ever to sit in the secretariat of the Muslim League``, writes Prof Aziz. Finally, when in 1946 the Muslim League decided to join the Interim government in Delhi it sent five men to the Viceroy`s Council. The Bengali member it chose was a Hindu from the non-scheduled castes! No wonder therefore that East Pakistan opted out in 1971 by calling in India and thus rejecting the two-nation theory.
Daily Times, Pakistan
Thursday, December 18, 2003
EDITORIAL
Talking about ‘Fall of Dhaka`
..... The Muslim League reached an agreement over separate electorates with the National Congress in a joint session at Lucknow known as the Lucknow Pact of 1916. The Muslims of Bengal were not given a fair allocation of seats (they demanded 50 per cent on the basis of population) under separate electorates and appealed to the All India Muslim League to agitate the demand, but to no avail. When the Bengal Muslim League failed to elicit a response from the central party in 1920 it encouraged Bengali leaders to turn to the Hindus for support, arriving at what was later known as the Bengal Pact. Thus the truth is that the Muslim League leaders from the United Provinces dominated it and were most reluctant to reopen the question of representation as that would have threatened the exaggerated quotas of seats they had won for the Muslim minority areas. In 1930, AK Fazlul Haq denounced the Lucknow Pact and called for its revision. The same year the Bengal League did not send its delegation to the All-India Muslim League session at Allahabad (1930) where Allama Mohammad Iqbal spoke of a Muslim state in the Northwest of India. The Bengalis also boycotted the 1932 session of the party convened to consider the Communal Awards of 1932.
Then in 1935 the central League decided to contest the coming elections. And it decided to stuff the Bengal Muslim League with non-Bengali and Urdu-speaking office-bearers. The 54-member Central Parliamentary Board had only eight Bengali seats. And when the session was called, only two members from Bengal attended and they were not Bengalis! After that all changes made in the structure of the Bengal Muslim League from the centre excluded the Bengali-speaking Bengalis, replacing them with either non-Bengali residents of Bengal or Urdu-speaking Bengalis. No secretary of the All-India Muslim League was to be from Bengal: ``No Bengali was ever to sit in the secretariat of the Muslim League``, writes Prof Aziz. Finally, when in 1946 the Muslim League decided to join the Interim government in Delhi it sent five men to the Viceroy`s Council. The Bengali member it chose was a Hindu from the non-scheduled castes! No wonder therefore that East Pakistan opted out in 1971 by calling in India and thus rejecting the two-nation theory.
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