Dost Mittar May 3, 2004
#92 Posted by HP on May 5, 2004 8:07:50 pm
#85 by dost-mittar
``btw no one seems to have commented on the pre-dawn azaan about the optional prayer. Is this common?``
There is no need to write a book about it. Shia Azaan happens before the Sunni Azaan often the diff is about 30 mins to 60 mins. You might have heard the Shia Azaan.
What is the big deal anyway about the Azaan? It is also possible that the Mullah couldn`t sleep and decided to read all his Arabic for everybody`s benefit. Or it was not Azaan at all but an insane man`s plea for help in gibbersh which obviously fell on deaf ears.
DM Sahib! you worry too much about little things.
#91`s a walking bullsh!t encyclopedia.
#91 Posted by Romair on May 5, 2004 7:33:35 pm
dost-mittar #85: ``btw no one seems to have commented on the pre-dawn azaan about the optional prayer. Is this common?``
I think the prayer you are refering to is Tahajjud. Which is supposed to be offered in the, ``later part of the night.`` Later 1/3rd of the night. As far as I know, it is not supposed to have an azaan. It is supererogatory prayer of 11 rakaa`ts.
I don`t think the current concept of prayers in Islam, Tahajjud or otherwise, is how it was supposed to be. Just my guess, not based on any research. Mosques in Islam were probably community centers. Where the neighborhood met to discuss things, play basketball (or its equivalent of that time), shoot the breeze (in a polite manner) and pray, when the time came. They probably had guest houses attached to them, for travellers. And perhaps an odd school or two, and a library, etc.
Prayers, themselves, were probably supposed to be meditation, which would have a peaceful affect on one`s psyche. I pray once and sometimes twice a day regularly. Hasn`t really had any kind of peaceful affect, one way or the other on my psyche. And the community meetings in the mosque (albeit I don`t go much) haven`t really done much for me, either. I suppose I, and maybe most Muslims, pray to add tokens to their counter of, ``goodness,`` or when they are in dire straits, and need to communicate with the, ``Man upstairs.``
So I would think mosques and prayers were to be a lot more than that.
Reading the Quran in Arabic, doesn`t have much of an affect, one me, either. However, reading the translation of the Quran, is one thing, that does have a big affect. Really makes me think and analyze. And is quite peaceful. Doesn`t seem like a chore, which prayers do seem like.
The other thing that is very interesting is reading about the lives of Prophet Muhammad and the individuals surrounding him. That is fascinating. Not only from a religious point of view, but from a historical point of view, also.
The Quran is definitely an amazing book (tremendously amazing for the time it was authored). And Muhammad was truly an amazing man, centuries ahead of his time in vision and thought.
Tahajjud prayers, though, I haven`t quite figured out. They are mentioned in the Quran. So, as a Muslim, I have to believe, they are supposed to have some affect. But I think there must be more to them, than just getting up in the middle of the night, and praying......
P.S. You are from a country that has the second highest population of Muslims in the world. I am a bit surprised you haven`t heard of Tahajjud......
I think the prayer you are refering to is Tahajjud. Which is supposed to be offered in the, ``later part of the night.`` Later 1/3rd of the night. As far as I know, it is not supposed to have an azaan. It is supererogatory prayer of 11 rakaa`ts.
I don`t think the current concept of prayers in Islam, Tahajjud or otherwise, is how it was supposed to be. Just my guess, not based on any research. Mosques in Islam were probably community centers. Where the neighborhood met to discuss things, play basketball (or its equivalent of that time), shoot the breeze (in a polite manner) and pray, when the time came. They probably had guest houses attached to them, for travellers. And perhaps an odd school or two, and a library, etc.
Prayers, themselves, were probably supposed to be meditation, which would have a peaceful affect on one`s psyche. I pray once and sometimes twice a day regularly. Hasn`t really had any kind of peaceful affect, one way or the other on my psyche. And the community meetings in the mosque (albeit I don`t go much) haven`t really done much for me, either. I suppose I, and maybe most Muslims, pray to add tokens to their counter of, ``goodness,`` or when they are in dire straits, and need to communicate with the, ``Man upstairs.``
So I would think mosques and prayers were to be a lot more than that.
Reading the Quran in Arabic, doesn`t have much of an affect, one me, either. However, reading the translation of the Quran, is one thing, that does have a big affect. Really makes me think and analyze. And is quite peaceful. Doesn`t seem like a chore, which prayers do seem like.
The other thing that is very interesting is reading about the lives of Prophet Muhammad and the individuals surrounding him. That is fascinating. Not only from a religious point of view, but from a historical point of view, also.
The Quran is definitely an amazing book (tremendously amazing for the time it was authored). And Muhammad was truly an amazing man, centuries ahead of his time in vision and thought.
Tahajjud prayers, though, I haven`t quite figured out. They are mentioned in the Quran. So, as a Muslim, I have to believe, they are supposed to have some affect. But I think there must be more to them, than just getting up in the middle of the night, and praying......
P.S. You are from a country that has the second highest population of Muslims in the world. I am a bit surprised you haven`t heard of Tahajjud......
#90 Posted by veeresh on May 5, 2004 7:16:40 pm
Dost Mittar 85 . . . yes, I see the pattern!!!
a) Those who don`t drink get exiled in Saudia.
b) Those who like fine wines choose UK.
c) Those who can survive on IMFL take India.
On another tack, when I was in Iran, I used to find it very difficult to explain to the new post-Shah generation there that once a leader lost, then he or she did not have to go and fight back the mountains or be killed.
a) Those who don`t drink get exiled in Saudia.
b) Those who like fine wines choose UK.
c) Those who can survive on IMFL take India.
On another tack, when I was in Iran, I used to find it very difficult to explain to the new post-Shah generation there that once a leader lost, then he or she did not have to go and fight back the mountains or be killed.
#89 Posted by dost_mittar on May 5, 2004 1:58:40 pm
Urstruly#86:
Thanks. I had read those verses but interpreted them as a general instruction to share wealth and no more.
Thanks. I had read those verses but interpreted them as a general instruction to share wealth and no more.
#88 Posted by nakhok on May 5, 2004 1:49:13 pm
# 71 by HP
+++++
Pakistan’s first constitution was passed in 1956 under his prime ministership.
+++++
Surhawardy, as the Law Minister, did play an important role in the framing of the 1956 Constitution. It was only after its adoption that Suhrawardy replaced Chaudhry Muhammad Ali as Prime Minister on September 12, 1956.
+++++
He was blamed by Bengalis for accepting the Parity formula and One unit for Pakistan.
Parity meant East and west Pakistan were equal in representation. The reality was that East Pakistan was a Majority population province.
+++++
Yes, that is true. After years of political wilderness after 14th August of 1947, this was Suhrawardy`s way of balancing his role of representing East Pakistan with winning acceptance of the West Pakistan based establishment.
It was pre-ordained to fail because Suhrawardy had failed to learn an important lesson of history that it doesn`t always pay to shortchange one`s secured support base in the hope of winning acceptance of those that have a conflicting agenda:
In August of 1946, in an attempt to curry favor with the Muslim League establishment, Suhrawardy (who was then Prime Minister of United Bengal) had foolishly precipitated the Great Calcutta Killings by playing along with Jinnah`s call for Direct Action. Not surprisingly, he came to be blamed for selectively using the non-Bengali Muslims in Calcutta and the non-Bengali Muslims in the Police to precipitate the riots.
Once Suhrawardy got tarred as the Prime Minister under whose watch the Great Calcutta Killings had been perpetrated, the Muslim League establishment quickly discarded him for Khwaja Nazimuddin who was all along its favorite. On the morrow of independence, it was Khwaja Nazimuddin who became East Pakistan`s Chief Minister while Suhrawardy was left to cool his heels in Kolkata where he had come to be reviled as the henchman for the Muslim League establishment from outside Bengal.
It goes to Suhrawardy`s credit that he manfully did penance by teaming up with Gandhi in post-independence India to maintain peace in Kolkata - quite a come down for someone who had breached it during Direct Action the previous year.
Suhrawardy`s attempt to curry favor with the West Pakistan establishment during the framing of the Constitution was just as much a blunder. He did no favor either to himself or to East Pakistan by agreeing to the devaluation of an East Pakistani`s vote under the principle of ``Parity``. Nor did he endear himself to the smaller provinces of West Pakistan by advocating ``One Unit``. But worst of all, as in 1946, he failed to win acceptance of the establishment.
He was EBDOed unceremeniously by ``Field Marshal`` Ayub Khan after the ``October Revolution`` of 1958 and died alone in a hotel room in Beirut, Lebanon, allegedly of a heart attack.
+++++
Pakistan’s first constitution was passed in 1956 under his prime ministership.
+++++
Surhawardy, as the Law Minister, did play an important role in the framing of the 1956 Constitution. It was only after its adoption that Suhrawardy replaced Chaudhry Muhammad Ali as Prime Minister on September 12, 1956.
+++++
He was blamed by Bengalis for accepting the Parity formula and One unit for Pakistan.
Parity meant East and west Pakistan were equal in representation. The reality was that East Pakistan was a Majority population province.
+++++
Yes, that is true. After years of political wilderness after 14th August of 1947, this was Suhrawardy`s way of balancing his role of representing East Pakistan with winning acceptance of the West Pakistan based establishment.
It was pre-ordained to fail because Suhrawardy had failed to learn an important lesson of history that it doesn`t always pay to shortchange one`s secured support base in the hope of winning acceptance of those that have a conflicting agenda:
In August of 1946, in an attempt to curry favor with the Muslim League establishment, Suhrawardy (who was then Prime Minister of United Bengal) had foolishly precipitated the Great Calcutta Killings by playing along with Jinnah`s call for Direct Action. Not surprisingly, he came to be blamed for selectively using the non-Bengali Muslims in Calcutta and the non-Bengali Muslims in the Police to precipitate the riots.
Once Suhrawardy got tarred as the Prime Minister under whose watch the Great Calcutta Killings had been perpetrated, the Muslim League establishment quickly discarded him for Khwaja Nazimuddin who was all along its favorite. On the morrow of independence, it was Khwaja Nazimuddin who became East Pakistan`s Chief Minister while Suhrawardy was left to cool his heels in Kolkata where he had come to be reviled as the henchman for the Muslim League establishment from outside Bengal.
It goes to Suhrawardy`s credit that he manfully did penance by teaming up with Gandhi in post-independence India to maintain peace in Kolkata - quite a come down for someone who had breached it during Direct Action the previous year.
Suhrawardy`s attempt to curry favor with the West Pakistan establishment during the framing of the Constitution was just as much a blunder. He did no favor either to himself or to East Pakistan by agreeing to the devaluation of an East Pakistani`s vote under the principle of ``Parity``. Nor did he endear himself to the smaller provinces of West Pakistan by advocating ``One Unit``. But worst of all, as in 1946, he failed to win acceptance of the establishment.
He was EBDOed unceremeniously by ``Field Marshal`` Ayub Khan after the ``October Revolution`` of 1958 and died alone in a hotel room in Beirut, Lebanon, allegedly of a heart attack.
#87 Posted by HP on May 5, 2004 1:49:13 pm
#83 by nakhok
You bring out a rather nasty and stupid episode of Pakistan history. I mean it is full of it but some just top them all.
Suharwardy was responsible for Hindu –Muslims riots in Calcutta that forced Gandhi ji to hunger strike (maran Barat) to quash those riots in 1947-48.
He was reportedly a pretty good lawyer but a dense politician.
Ayub Khan was pretty much running Pakistan since 1954. Rests of the people were faces like we have Jamali now. When politicians attempted to force elections in Pakistan, Ayub Khan decided to remove the civilian govt. altogether so there is no chance of any elections. “Na Raha Ga Baans, Na Baja Gi Bansoori”.
Pakistan had joined defense pacts with the US and UK was part of those defense pacts before 1956. So it occurred in Ayub Khan’s thick skull that Pakistan needs to support the British during the war. The Gen. in the GHQ could not figure out that the nature of the war was different. In his opinion Nasser was a socialist, thus an enemy of the US and a friend of the USSR. Later on, they realized that even the US was not supporting the British. It was too late at that point. Pakistan had already announced support for the British and by that token to Israel.
One more thing, The British High Commissioner was considered a god by Pakistan’s bureaucracy at that time, Like the US ambassador is considered now. The British Ambassador might have also put pressure on Pakistan to support the brits in that war.
Suharwardy was just echoing Ayub Khan’s wisdom.
#86 Posted by Urstruly on May 5, 2004 1:46:45 pm
Dost Mitter
Ushr is ordained through Qura`nic injunctions:
The Heifer 2:267 ``O you who believe! Spend of the good things which you have earned, and of that which We bring forth from the earth``
and
The Cattle 6:141 ``He it is who produces gardens trellised and untrellised, and the date palm and the crops of diverse flavors, and the olive, and the pomegranate, like and unlike. Eat of the fruit thereof when it produces fruit, and pay its due upon the harvest day``
The rate of Ushr, however, just like Zakat comes from Hadith:
The Prophet (Pbuh) said: “On a land irrigated by rain water or by natural water channels or if the land is wet due to a nearby water channel Ushr (i.e. one-tenth, 10%) is compulsory (as Zakat); and on the land irrigated by the well, half of Ushr (i.e. one twentieth i.e. 5%) is cumpolsury (as Zakat on the yield of the land)”.
I hope that helps.
As far pre-pre-dawn azan is concerned I have no idea. Never heard about it. There is only one azan ordained which is at-dawn.
Ushr is ordained through Qura`nic injunctions:
The Heifer 2:267 ``O you who believe! Spend of the good things which you have earned, and of that which We bring forth from the earth``
and
The Cattle 6:141 ``He it is who produces gardens trellised and untrellised, and the date palm and the crops of diverse flavors, and the olive, and the pomegranate, like and unlike. Eat of the fruit thereof when it produces fruit, and pay its due upon the harvest day``
The rate of Ushr, however, just like Zakat comes from Hadith:
The Prophet (Pbuh) said: “On a land irrigated by rain water or by natural water channels or if the land is wet due to a nearby water channel Ushr (i.e. one-tenth, 10%) is compulsory (as Zakat); and on the land irrigated by the well, half of Ushr (i.e. one twentieth i.e. 5%) is cumpolsury (as Zakat on the yield of the land)”.
I hope that helps.
As far pre-pre-dawn azan is concerned I have no idea. Never heard about it. There is only one azan ordained which is at-dawn.
#85 Posted by dost_mittar on May 5, 2004 1:20:23 pm
nakhok:
``Suhrawardy died alone in a hotel room in Beirut, Lebanon, allegedly of a heart attack. ``
harimou:
``
Let us see.
Ch. Rehmat Ali died in exile.
Suhrawardy died in exile.
Jogendra Mandal exiled himself to India and died there.
Liaqat Ali Khan was assassinated before he could be exiled.
According to Yasser, Mohammad Ali Jinnah wanted to live out his life in Simla and Bombay.
Even Quarratulain Hyder lives in exile in India.
Does anyone else see a pattern here or is it just my imagination? ``
...being a leader in Pakistan is a hazardous occupation. From Liaqat to Nawaz, none of them left office gracefully. Wonder if anyone is willing to insure Musharraf?
Urstruly:
Thanks for an informative post about Ushr. What is the source of this Ushr? It`s not the Quran, is it?
btw no one seems to have commented on the pre-dawn azaan about the optional prayer. Is this common?
``Suhrawardy died alone in a hotel room in Beirut, Lebanon, allegedly of a heart attack. ``
harimou:
``
Let us see.
Ch. Rehmat Ali died in exile.
Suhrawardy died in exile.
Jogendra Mandal exiled himself to India and died there.
Liaqat Ali Khan was assassinated before he could be exiled.
According to Yasser, Mohammad Ali Jinnah wanted to live out his life in Simla and Bombay.
Even Quarratulain Hyder lives in exile in India.
Does anyone else see a pattern here or is it just my imagination? ``
...being a leader in Pakistan is a hazardous occupation. From Liaqat to Nawaz, none of them left office gracefully. Wonder if anyone is willing to insure Musharraf?
Urstruly:
Thanks for an informative post about Ushr. What is the source of this Ushr? It`s not the Quran, is it?
btw no one seems to have commented on the pre-dawn azaan about the optional prayer. Is this common?
#84 Posted by Romair on May 5, 2004 10:59:24 am
HisExcellency #81:
``Gar aaj auj peh hai Taal-e-Raqeeb to kya
Yeh chaar din ki Khudai to koi baat nahin``
I wish. But I highly doubt it.
Umer-e-daraz mang kay laye thay char din
doe arzoo main katt gaye, doe intezar main
``Gar aaj auj peh hai Taal-e-Raqeeb to kya
Yeh chaar din ki Khudai to koi baat nahin``
I wish. But I highly doubt it.
Umer-e-daraz mang kay laye thay char din
doe arzoo main katt gaye, doe intezar main
#83 Posted by nakhok on May 5, 2004 10:53:09 am
# 71 By HP
+++++
[Suhrawardy] was still Pakistan’s Prime Minister when 1956 Suez war broke out.
+++++
In M.J.Akbar`s biography of Jawaharlal Nehru, Suhrawardy comes off as less than a statesman, at least during the Suez crisis when he was the Prime Minister of Pakistan.
As a member of CENTO and SEATO, the Pakistan government under Suhrawardy had come out very strongly against Nasser`s Egypt during the Suez crisis. Nehru`s government was of course a study in contrast and India`s stock rose high among the peoples of the Muslim world, in general, and of the Arab world, in particular. The Arabs christened Nehru, Rasul-al-Salaam (messenger of peace).
There was much embarrassment in Pakistan for Nehru`s role destroyed its strategy of isolating India from the Muslim world. Moreover, while the Suhrawardy government squirmed, Pakistani poets showered encomiums on Nehru. A verse written by Rais Amrohvi was published in the Karachi Urdu paper, Jung:
``Jap raha hai aaj mala ek Hindu ki Arab
Bramhan zade mein shaan-e dilbari aisi to ho
Hikmate Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru kki kassam
Mar mite Islam jis par kafiri aisi to ho``
A rough translation:
``The Arab world is singing praises today of
a Hindu Bramhin`s courage. Nehru is such a
man that even Islam would embrace such an
infidel.``
+++++
[Suhrawardy] was still Pakistan’s Prime Minister when 1956 Suez war broke out.
+++++
In M.J.Akbar`s biography of Jawaharlal Nehru, Suhrawardy comes off as less than a statesman, at least during the Suez crisis when he was the Prime Minister of Pakistan.
As a member of CENTO and SEATO, the Pakistan government under Suhrawardy had come out very strongly against Nasser`s Egypt during the Suez crisis. Nehru`s government was of course a study in contrast and India`s stock rose high among the peoples of the Muslim world, in general, and of the Arab world, in particular. The Arabs christened Nehru, Rasul-al-Salaam (messenger of peace).
There was much embarrassment in Pakistan for Nehru`s role destroyed its strategy of isolating India from the Muslim world. Moreover, while the Suhrawardy government squirmed, Pakistani poets showered encomiums on Nehru. A verse written by Rais Amrohvi was published in the Karachi Urdu paper, Jung:
``Jap raha hai aaj mala ek Hindu ki Arab
Bramhan zade mein shaan-e dilbari aisi to ho
Hikmate Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru kki kassam
Mar mite Islam jis par kafiri aisi to ho``
A rough translation:
``The Arab world is singing praises today of
a Hindu Bramhin`s courage. Nehru is such a
man that even Islam would embrace such an
infidel.``
#82 Posted by Romair on May 5, 2004 10:28:29 am
HisExcellency #81: ``IMHO, the generals, feudals and established political clans of Pakistan are about to get a rude shock in the next election. Their mirage of power and privelege will get shattered........There is political vacuum in the country......If there is someone who stands for the status quo, the public will also expect some one who opposes the status quo.``
I wish this were correct, and would happen. But it will not. At least, I don` think so. Who is going to shock them? You have mentioned some families that have been replaced. However, there are twenty times as many who are still there. And many of those like Liaqut Ali had no constituency in Pakistan. At least not a landed one. An odd feudal may get kicked out, here and there, but he will be replaced by another one. Bhutto, after all, was a feudal. Does it make any difference if he replaced another feudal?
More importantly, you need to look at who is doing the replacing. It is true that the Army, and BB and NS (pillars of political power) have been kicked out, every so often. But whom were they kicked out by? Not by a third force. But by each other. Army kicks out NS. BB kicks out Army. NS kicks out BB. And we start all over again.
This was my purpose of giving the list of Gohar Ayub`s family. Or the families he married into. Can they ever be out of power? They have (had) a COAS (Ayub) and a potential COAS (Ali Quli) as relatives. They had two Presidents (Ayub and Ishaq) as relatives. They have the head of PML(Q) and Chief Minister Punjab as relatives. They have had ministers in PPP, PML(N), PML(Q) and ANP govts. This covers the whole political spectrum on NWFP`s and Pakistan`s power.
They are always in the govt. And they are always in the opposition. They are the ones getting kicked out and they are ones doing the kicking. They are into big business and beaurecracy. And they are in the federal structure. I can make a bet that if you draw the family tree of political families of PPP, PML(s), ANP etc., they are all related to each other, within a few relations. I bet BB can trace her relations to NS, somehow or the other, through some political family. Could you have imagined that Bilour, Ishaq and Chaudhry Shujaat were related?
Its all a big scam. And we keep falling for it, because its leaders keep yelling, ``democracy`` to the normal awam. And, ``secularism`` to the Chowk crowd.
Does it really make a difference if poeple kick out Iqbal Saifullah of PPP, to elect his brother Salim Saifullah of PML, who then gets kicked out by his in-law Bilour of ANP. Then they kick Bilour out to appoint father-in-law Ghulam Ishaq of the beaurecracy as the head of Pakistan. Who then gets replaced by nephew-in-law Gen Ali Quli or someone? Who is then kicked out by Iqbal Saifullah, again. All the while, their kids are married to each other, and are journalists in Pakistan`s liberal media and the biggest proponents of elections. And we are back to square one.
This is why I can only sympathesize with those who have the naivete to think that election after election, under the current system, will somehow fix everything, in Pakistan. They cannot explain how it will fix everything. But they have a romantic notion that it just will. Because it did so in France and Luxumberg. Not realizing that it took those countreis centuries and civil wars and world wars to get the pre-requisites correct, and to get rid of their Ayubs, and Khattaks and Saifullahs.
No progressive force can get rid of these guys. Imran Khan and Omar Asghar Khan are centered in the areas of the above-mentioned individuals. These two are the best and brightest Pakistan has (had, in case of Omar) to offer. They are world reknowned philanthrapists, with squeaky clean reputations. They are highly educated from Oxford and Cambridge, very good looking, very rich, very well-connected, principled, progressive, articulate individuals, from powerful families, with a hell of a lot of credibility. They have managed large organizations, and now have enough political roots and experience.
Even they cannot make a dent, through elections, under the current system, into the power structure mentioned above. Despite the fact that Omer`s Sangi is a roaring philanthrapic success story amongst the poor, as is Imran`s Shaukut Khanum hospital.
Maybe if Edhi ran against these guys, he would win. Though I doubt even that. And do keep in mind that NWFP is not the center of feudalism. Imagine how well-entrenched the PPP and tribal feudals of Sind and Baluchistan are.
There is no third force, except the maulvis. They have now kicked out some of the ullahs and the Khattaks in NWFP. Infact, they have kicked them all out, and some in Baluchistan also. This is the only group that is not currently married into the power structure of Pakistan. So, in a sense, this is a revolution. However, do we want maulvis ruling the country? Out of the frying pan into the fire....
I wish this were correct, and would happen. But it will not. At least, I don` think so. Who is going to shock them? You have mentioned some families that have been replaced. However, there are twenty times as many who are still there. And many of those like Liaqut Ali had no constituency in Pakistan. At least not a landed one. An odd feudal may get kicked out, here and there, but he will be replaced by another one. Bhutto, after all, was a feudal. Does it make any difference if he replaced another feudal?
More importantly, you need to look at who is doing the replacing. It is true that the Army, and BB and NS (pillars of political power) have been kicked out, every so often. But whom were they kicked out by? Not by a third force. But by each other. Army kicks out NS. BB kicks out Army. NS kicks out BB. And we start all over again.
This was my purpose of giving the list of Gohar Ayub`s family. Or the families he married into. Can they ever be out of power? They have (had) a COAS (Ayub) and a potential COAS (Ali Quli) as relatives. They had two Presidents (Ayub and Ishaq) as relatives. They have the head of PML(Q) and Chief Minister Punjab as relatives. They have had ministers in PPP, PML(N), PML(Q) and ANP govts. This covers the whole political spectrum on NWFP`s and Pakistan`s power.
They are always in the govt. And they are always in the opposition. They are the ones getting kicked out and they are ones doing the kicking. They are into big business and beaurecracy. And they are in the federal structure. I can make a bet that if you draw the family tree of political families of PPP, PML(s), ANP etc., they are all related to each other, within a few relations. I bet BB can trace her relations to NS, somehow or the other, through some political family. Could you have imagined that Bilour, Ishaq and Chaudhry Shujaat were related?
Its all a big scam. And we keep falling for it, because its leaders keep yelling, ``democracy`` to the normal awam. And, ``secularism`` to the Chowk crowd.
Does it really make a difference if poeple kick out Iqbal Saifullah of PPP, to elect his brother Salim Saifullah of PML, who then gets kicked out by his in-law Bilour of ANP. Then they kick Bilour out to appoint father-in-law Ghulam Ishaq of the beaurecracy as the head of Pakistan. Who then gets replaced by nephew-in-law Gen Ali Quli or someone? Who is then kicked out by Iqbal Saifullah, again. All the while, their kids are married to each other, and are journalists in Pakistan`s liberal media and the biggest proponents of elections. And we are back to square one.
This is why I can only sympathesize with those who have the naivete to think that election after election, under the current system, will somehow fix everything, in Pakistan. They cannot explain how it will fix everything. But they have a romantic notion that it just will. Because it did so in France and Luxumberg. Not realizing that it took those countreis centuries and civil wars and world wars to get the pre-requisites correct, and to get rid of their Ayubs, and Khattaks and Saifullahs.
No progressive force can get rid of these guys. Imran Khan and Omar Asghar Khan are centered in the areas of the above-mentioned individuals. These two are the best and brightest Pakistan has (had, in case of Omar) to offer. They are world reknowned philanthrapists, with squeaky clean reputations. They are highly educated from Oxford and Cambridge, very good looking, very rich, very well-connected, principled, progressive, articulate individuals, from powerful families, with a hell of a lot of credibility. They have managed large organizations, and now have enough political roots and experience.
Even they cannot make a dent, through elections, under the current system, into the power structure mentioned above. Despite the fact that Omer`s Sangi is a roaring philanthrapic success story amongst the poor, as is Imran`s Shaukut Khanum hospital.
Maybe if Edhi ran against these guys, he would win. Though I doubt even that. And do keep in mind that NWFP is not the center of feudalism. Imagine how well-entrenched the PPP and tribal feudals of Sind and Baluchistan are.
There is no third force, except the maulvis. They have now kicked out some of the ullahs and the Khattaks in NWFP. Infact, they have kicked them all out, and some in Baluchistan also. This is the only group that is not currently married into the power structure of Pakistan. So, in a sense, this is a revolution. However, do we want maulvis ruling the country? Out of the frying pan into the fire....
#81 Posted by Morad on May 5, 2004 8:35:08 am
#70: just a small correction; Retd. Lt. Gen. Ali Quli is the son of Late Lt. Gen. Habibullah and not Aslam Khattak ...
#80 Posted by HisExcellency on May 5, 2004 8:35:08 am
#70 by Romair
A very informative post indeed.
However, I disagree with your statement that only a few hundred families run Pakistan. This is only a mirage of power, that lasts for just 5-10 years. After the creation of Pakistan and death of Quaid-e-Azam, a clique of Muslim Leaguers emerged with greater power than those enjoyed by Ayub Khan, Ch. Wajahat, all the families that you mentioned.
Ayub Khoro, Mumtaz Daultana, Nawab Iftikhar Mamdot, Dr.Khan Sahib, Khawaja Nazimuddin, Sardar Abdur Rab Nishtar and Liaqat Ali Khan tried all the tricks of alliances, political marriages, tailor-made laws to suit their agendas, even used political parties has vehicles of personal power.
Yet none of these wily and powerful names survived the next decade of Pakistani politics. By 1957, Liaqat had been assassinated. Nazimuddim had been snubbed by the East Pakistani electorate. Daultana, Mamdot, Nishtar and Khan Saheb were rendered irrelevant by martial law (which was greeted by the people initially).
In 1970 elections, nobody was expecting Bhutto emerge victorious in West Pakistan. The Intelligence Bureau sent a report to Yahya Khan in August 1969 in which IB predicted that Mumtaz Daultana`s Convention Muslim League will sweep the elections. Their analysis was based on conventional reasoning: Daultana enjoyed the support of feudals and established political clans of Punjab, Sindh and NWFP. Daultana was himself so sure of victory that he had even formed a cabinet before the election results were announced. In the end, he had to join the PPP and become Bhutto`s ambassador to the US.
In 1996, Benazir was riding the same elephant of arrogance, drunk with power and overconfident of her political wizardry and Awami appeal. The three P`s (Pajeros, Peers, Power project/bijli) became the fad topics during her government. Most Muslim Leaguers were lining up to get PPP tickets for the next election.
Five months later, her own PPP-wallahs didn`t turn up to vote for her. She was cut down to size by the unpredictable and discerning Pakistani public in the 1997 elections. All her feudal clout and political pedigree failed to fetch her more than 17 seats. Almost all her cabinet members lost their seats.
Her successor Nawaz Sharif also succumbed to the same mirage of power. He boasted that the Sharifs would rule for another 15 years in Pakistan. Parliament became a rubber stamp. Nawaz started kicking the judiciary, army, press, bureaucracy and constitution around. Who could challenge him, his sycophants boasted (and Nawaz believed it). Yet when the time of reckoning came, his heavy mandate and billions of Ruppees couldn`t save him. The military coup was welcomed by the people. Nawaz Sharif had entered the stage in grand style in 1990 as Prime Minister and became the richest (and most corrupt & powerful) Prime Minister. Yet this mirage of power didn`t even last 10 years. Mian saheb was out of the country by 2000!
Although Musharraf has fared better than Benazir and Nawaz, even he is not living up to the expectations of the people. More is expected of him. In the short-run, people may tolerate the involvement of military in politics. But in the longer-run, this is not acceptable. The nation expects faujis to become repairmen and protectors of the house, not the house-owners.
IMHO, the generals, feudals and established political clans of Pakistan are about to get a rude shock in the next election. Their mirage of power and privelege will get shattered. I say this because conditions in Pakistan today are similar to those in 1967.
There is political vacuum in the country. All the current political players (Benazir, Nawaz, Altaf included) represent the status quo. Even most of the political clans you mentioned, are in favor of the status quo. Under such circumstances, the public just perceives them as myriad faces of the same platform. But it is a law of nature, that there is an equal and opposite reaction to every action. If there is someone who stands for the status quo, the public will also expect some one who opposes the status quo. At this stage, any one who presents himself/herself as a genuine opponent of the status quo... will indeed become the next Z.A.Bhutto... and all these political clans will either become irrelevant like the Mamdots, Nishtars, Nazimuddins... or they will become ceremonial but powerless like Daultana. As Faiz said:
Gar aaj auj peh hai Taal-e-Raqeeb to kya
Yeh chaar din ki Khudai to koi baat nahin
A very informative post indeed.
However, I disagree with your statement that only a few hundred families run Pakistan. This is only a mirage of power, that lasts for just 5-10 years. After the creation of Pakistan and death of Quaid-e-Azam, a clique of Muslim Leaguers emerged with greater power than those enjoyed by Ayub Khan, Ch. Wajahat, all the families that you mentioned.
Ayub Khoro, Mumtaz Daultana, Nawab Iftikhar Mamdot, Dr.Khan Sahib, Khawaja Nazimuddin, Sardar Abdur Rab Nishtar and Liaqat Ali Khan tried all the tricks of alliances, political marriages, tailor-made laws to suit their agendas, even used political parties has vehicles of personal power.
Yet none of these wily and powerful names survived the next decade of Pakistani politics. By 1957, Liaqat had been assassinated. Nazimuddim had been snubbed by the East Pakistani electorate. Daultana, Mamdot, Nishtar and Khan Saheb were rendered irrelevant by martial law (which was greeted by the people initially).
In 1970 elections, nobody was expecting Bhutto emerge victorious in West Pakistan. The Intelligence Bureau sent a report to Yahya Khan in August 1969 in which IB predicted that Mumtaz Daultana`s Convention Muslim League will sweep the elections. Their analysis was based on conventional reasoning: Daultana enjoyed the support of feudals and established political clans of Punjab, Sindh and NWFP. Daultana was himself so sure of victory that he had even formed a cabinet before the election results were announced. In the end, he had to join the PPP and become Bhutto`s ambassador to the US.
In 1996, Benazir was riding the same elephant of arrogance, drunk with power and overconfident of her political wizardry and Awami appeal. The three P`s (Pajeros, Peers, Power project/bijli) became the fad topics during her government. Most Muslim Leaguers were lining up to get PPP tickets for the next election.
Five months later, her own PPP-wallahs didn`t turn up to vote for her. She was cut down to size by the unpredictable and discerning Pakistani public in the 1997 elections. All her feudal clout and political pedigree failed to fetch her more than 17 seats. Almost all her cabinet members lost their seats.
Her successor Nawaz Sharif also succumbed to the same mirage of power. He boasted that the Sharifs would rule for another 15 years in Pakistan. Parliament became a rubber stamp. Nawaz started kicking the judiciary, army, press, bureaucracy and constitution around. Who could challenge him, his sycophants boasted (and Nawaz believed it). Yet when the time of reckoning came, his heavy mandate and billions of Ruppees couldn`t save him. The military coup was welcomed by the people. Nawaz Sharif had entered the stage in grand style in 1990 as Prime Minister and became the richest (and most corrupt & powerful) Prime Minister. Yet this mirage of power didn`t even last 10 years. Mian saheb was out of the country by 2000!
Although Musharraf has fared better than Benazir and Nawaz, even he is not living up to the expectations of the people. More is expected of him. In the short-run, people may tolerate the involvement of military in politics. But in the longer-run, this is not acceptable. The nation expects faujis to become repairmen and protectors of the house, not the house-owners.
IMHO, the generals, feudals and established political clans of Pakistan are about to get a rude shock in the next election. Their mirage of power and privelege will get shattered. I say this because conditions in Pakistan today are similar to those in 1967.
There is political vacuum in the country. All the current political players (Benazir, Nawaz, Altaf included) represent the status quo. Even most of the political clans you mentioned, are in favor of the status quo. Under such circumstances, the public just perceives them as myriad faces of the same platform. But it is a law of nature, that there is an equal and opposite reaction to every action. If there is someone who stands for the status quo, the public will also expect some one who opposes the status quo. At this stage, any one who presents himself/herself as a genuine opponent of the status quo... will indeed become the next Z.A.Bhutto... and all these political clans will either become irrelevant like the Mamdots, Nishtars, Nazimuddins... or they will become ceremonial but powerless like Daultana. As Faiz said:
Gar aaj auj peh hai Taal-e-Raqeeb to kya
Yeh chaar din ki Khudai to koi baat nahin
#79 Posted by whippinzed on May 5, 2004 8:32:43 am
Romair #70. Thank you very much for your family trees. It was extremely informative. I specially liked this paragraph
begin_quote{
Either all the talent of Pakistan is in these families. And the rest of us are nincumpoops. Or these families have the system figured out from all directions, and will never let anyone else come up. In the process, NWFP has become one of the most backward areas in the world. Those members of these famlies who are not in getting elected, are studying abroad, or writing for Friday Times, or Chowk.
}end_quote
Now replace NWFP with pakistan in the above paragraph and the meaning of the whole thing remains the same - doesnot change. changelessness is the key here!
begin_quote{
Either all the talent of Pakistan is in these families. And the rest of us are nincumpoops. Or these families have the system figured out from all directions, and will never let anyone else come up. In the process, NWFP has become one of the most backward areas in the world. Those members of these famlies who are not in getting elected, are studying abroad, or writing for Friday Times, or Chowk.
}end_quote
Now replace NWFP with pakistan in the above paragraph and the meaning of the whole thing remains the same - doesnot change. changelessness is the key here!
#78 Posted by harimau on May 5, 2004 8:32:43 am
Ref HP #71
[Just adding a little bit more about Suharwardi.....
He died in exile in Beirut.]
Let us see.
Ch. Rehmat Ali died in exile.
Suhrawardy died in exile.
Jogendra Mandal exiled himself to India and died there.
Liaqat Ali Khan was assassinated before he could be exiled.
According to Yasser, Mohammad Ali Jinnah wanted to live out his life in Simla and Bombay.
Even Quarratulain Hyder lives in exile in India.
Does anyone else see a pattern here or is it just my imagination?
[Just adding a little bit more about Suharwardi.....
He died in exile in Beirut.]
Let us see.
Ch. Rehmat Ali died in exile.
Suhrawardy died in exile.
Jogendra Mandal exiled himself to India and died there.
Liaqat Ali Khan was assassinated before he could be exiled.
According to Yasser, Mohammad Ali Jinnah wanted to live out his life in Simla and Bombay.
Even Quarratulain Hyder lives in exile in India.
Does anyone else see a pattern here or is it just my imagination?
#77 Posted by harimau on May 5, 2004 8:32:43 am
Ref sadna #58
[#re voting in secrecy
TN Seshan during his tenure initiated the practice of bringing ballot boxes to a central location and mixing ballots from various polling booths before counting them. This prevents various party observers watching the counting from figuring out which neighbourhood voted for which party.]
Rediff has a small section on the electronic voting machines (EVM).
In case the poll officials do not want voting patterns in any single polling booth to be known, they have the option of uploading data from several EVMs to the control unit and then counting only the consolidated votes.
I don`t know about Bihar but in places like Tamil Nadu, nobody goes back to the localities to beat up the people for not voting the way the goons wanted them to vote. So, while this feature may be necessary in some places, it is not necessary all over India. But is there in all the EVMs.
[Of course, in places like Bihar, booth capturing/fraud would sidestep such measures.]
Booth capturing can be one of two possible methods. The first would be where the ballot box is carried off by one or another party preventing a proper count of the votes polled. In this case, there is re-polling in that area. The other is where a bunch of thugs rush in overwhelming the security personnel and stuff the ballot boxes with pre-marked ballots favoring their candidate. The latter is not possible with EVMs because they accept only 5 votes per minute and even then the Returning Officer who has the control unit can shut down the EVM remotely.
[Not sure what the situation is in the current elections with 100% use of electronic voting machines.]
Hope you sleep better now.
[#re voting in secrecy
TN Seshan during his tenure initiated the practice of bringing ballot boxes to a central location and mixing ballots from various polling booths before counting them. This prevents various party observers watching the counting from figuring out which neighbourhood voted for which party.]
Rediff has a small section on the electronic voting machines (EVM).
In case the poll officials do not want voting patterns in any single polling booth to be known, they have the option of uploading data from several EVMs to the control unit and then counting only the consolidated votes.
I don`t know about Bihar but in places like Tamil Nadu, nobody goes back to the localities to beat up the people for not voting the way the goons wanted them to vote. So, while this feature may be necessary in some places, it is not necessary all over India. But is there in all the EVMs.
[Of course, in places like Bihar, booth capturing/fraud would sidestep such measures.]
Booth capturing can be one of two possible methods. The first would be where the ballot box is carried off by one or another party preventing a proper count of the votes polled. In this case, there is re-polling in that area. The other is where a bunch of thugs rush in overwhelming the security personnel and stuff the ballot boxes with pre-marked ballots favoring their candidate. The latter is not possible with EVMs because they accept only 5 votes per minute and even then the Returning Officer who has the control unit can shut down the EVM remotely.
[Not sure what the situation is in the current elections with 100% use of electronic voting machines.]
Hope you sleep better now.
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