Complicity in Silence

Diablo #62

``Know your enemy...its not America or Israel....your enemy resides deep within your own....it is the religious fanatics who are fundamentally sectarian.``

I kinda agree with what you said and also wanted to point out a couple of things that came to mind when I read this article and particularly the above statement.

First, every nation has self interest in mind. Always. US will ditch Pakistan and every Muslim country if and when the need arises. Its true that we need to eliminate the scourge of sectarian violence among Muslims but it is also true that America and Israel are not exactly our best friends. They (like all countries) act on self-interest. Pakistan ditched Taliban because of self-interest. America ditched Saddam because of self interest. Russia created a bond of friendship with US (post 911) because of self interest and economic prosperity that lay before it.

So, although I do agree with you when you say that the real problem of Muslims and people in Iraq is sectarian violence, we should not forget that US, Israel or any country for that matter is not a `friend` nor `enemy.` It is just a player in this game of global money making where every alliance can be made or broken in order to milk it for all its worth!!

sattar2: Pretty good analysis. I agree with pretty much everything you have to say. I think Limbaugh, as usual, was saying what his audience of 20 million wants to say, but is politically correctly afraid of saying.

One point you did miss, in my opinion. The overwhelming Iraqi public opinion was against this invasion. This is why it did not work. One cannot just go into a country, as a, ``saviour`` if the people of that country consider you an occupier.

I watch talk shows on this issue all the time on Canadian TV. Unlike US TV, Canadian TV shows people with all kinds of views - like Noam Chomsky, and many Arabs. Invariably, on every talk show, all the Arabs/Muslims/Iraqis guests oppose the war. All the Arab/Muslim/Iraqi callers into the shows oppose the war. And all the Arab/Muslim/Iraqis in the audience oppose the war. It is almost 100%. The only excepiton is the odd Kurd, and even they say they do not trust the USA.

Who are the guests who support the war? Invariably, they are right-wing White Christian or Jewish guys from USA or Canada (though on the whole most Christians in Canada even oppose the war). Nearly every single Jewish guest supports it and keeps arguing how it is beneficial for the Iraqis. They seem more concerned about Iraq than the Iraqis themselves. While, ironically, the Iraqi guest sitting across him, and in the audience, are literally yelling at the top of their lungs trying to tell them, that they hate the USA and want it out of their country.

The only newspaper openly in support of this war in Ontario is the National Post. And it is owned by a very famous and extremely pro-Israeli Jewish family in Canada.

Opinion polls taken by CNN, before Fallujah and these pictures, showed that only 19% the Iraqis considered this a liberation. Now the number is bound to be a lot less. And opinion polls taken by Newsweek indicated that out of the 190 or so countries in teh world, only the majority populations of Israel and USA supported this war. And according to the Economist, Israel and USA are the most disliked countries in the world, amongst Arabs.

So when the second most disliked country in the world of 190 countries, amongst Arabs, invades Iraq, when it had at one time supported Saddam, it is bound to face resistance. Even if Iraq was ruled by Saddam, earlier........Americans have a huge image problem, in the Middle East. And if they are bent upon not fixing it, then they should refrain from invading other countries....

I don`t think OBL could have scripted this whole affair any better. He now has a new country to operate from, and a whole new population, pissed off at the USA, to recruit from.......

And I think the rest of the world, specifically the Muslim world, owes the Iraqi population quite a bit of gratitude for stopping the neo-con potential jaggeernaut right in its tracks......

This is typical of a large segment of Muslims living in North America. They live in the same countries they ideologically hate the lands that allowed them freedoms in life and defend the atrocities committed in their native lands.

Syed Ali, who has killed more Iraqis? Israel, USA or Saddam and now the Wahabi/Salafi dogs?

Know your enemy...its not America or Israel....your enemy resides deep within your own....it is the religious fanatics who are fundamentally sectarian. What is your point of view on the suicide bombings committed by Wahabi/Salafi dogs under the command of Zarqawi? (The bombings inside the Holy Shrines of Kerbala, Najaf and Kadhmiya were NOT carried out by the Israelis and America and therefore were not worthy of condemnation by the ``Ummah``)

Leave Iraq alone!

This is not the land of Jihad or the land of those who wish to pick a fight against America.......you didn`t help when we bled against Saddam (350,000 Shia died fighting Saddam in 1991....where was the Ummah? you only cry for Sunnies and that is why ALL of you mourn 6,000 Palestinians killed in the intifada. When the Shia die you turn a blind eye!)

.....you didn`t care when we starved....you only cared about Palestine and Kashmir.....you are a reactionary mind and respond only when it is somehow America`s fault.


Get real for once and see things for what they are. If we wish to progress as a people then we need to fight the bigger enemy......Al-Qaida, Zarqawi, the sectarian pigs from Jhang (and their ``Lashkars``)......they will kill us all before the Americans even get a chance.....

DEATH TO AL-QAIDA AND THE PIGS OF NEJD!

I think there are two ways to view the Abu-Ghraib fiasco … (sorry, longish post).

Limbaugh Viewpoint
One is that of Rush Limbaugh … which in some ways has some truth. That is … in a historical perspective, Abu-Ghraib POW abuse amounts to pretty much nothing … when compared to treatment of POWs from other wars throughout human history. A few men were violated during a war. Big deal … get over it.

Alternate viewpoint
What makes it tough to swallow Limbaugh line of reasoning (for me, at least) are the claims of fairness and justice made by the US administration all along. It seems reasonable to uphold the US army to higher standards of conduct. What makes it worse is the news about senior US officials having prior knowledge of these abuses … and their reluctance in dealing with the matter.

Comparisons to Japan and Germany
Now, I have heard Iraq being compared to Japan and Germany on several occasions … in the context of US bringing about democratic changes in other countries. My understanding is that … this comparison is flawed … for several reasons.

In the case of Japan and Germany, there was clear aggression against the world by these two nations. There was consensus in the world about who needs to be punished, and why. Furthermore, very importantly, Japan and Germany were entities with well-defined boundaries. On the other hand … aggression by Iraq/Saddam does not come close to what Japan and Germany were up to … before some sense was kicked into them by the US and Allies. Furthermore, “Militant Islam” is not a single country that may be easily invaded and defeated. It has a diffused existence … in pockets here and there … spreading from Turkey to Phillipines … and then some.

Such an enemy cannot be fought by a straight-forward invasion. Democratizing the Muslim world cannot be achieved by invading one country after the other. The small gains made by these wars are far outweighed by the loss of goodwill, death and destruction, and damage to human psyche and property. International support and alliances are needed to deal with this issue in a fitting manner. It was present after WW2 … but was clearly absent in the Iraq war.

And things only get more twisted …

African issue: It is difficult to accept the high moral position of the US in this conflict … when during the past 10 years alone, a lot worse has happened in African nations … with millions getting killed in civil wars … without much help from the US. Yes, Saddam is an animal … but there are worse dictators who did not get invaded by Uncle Sam. Although, this point alone does not constitute an argument against invasion of Iraq … it makes one understandably skeptical of the high moral ground US has tried to claim … while raising suspicion about its motives.

WMD issue: Whatever international goodwill and credibility US had, got lost in the WMD claims … when no WMDs turned up. This remains a severe blow for the US … which will be used against it by the enemy it is trying to fight.

Israel issue: Like it or not, US support for Israel is one of the root causes of Muslim world discontent with the US. I do think that Palestinians have been wronged … by the US, Israel, and the UNO … and ironically … more so by other Muslim nations. Since it is easy to blame others … most (all?) of the blame is shifted to the US, Israel by the Islamic world. A fair Israel policy is the pre-requisite to win Arab support. This will remain a thorn in the US’s side for time to come … and will make it impossible to have a peaceful resolution to the current crisis (pardon my pessimism, I hope I am wrong).

Islamic Militancy: Last, but not least, Islamic fundamentalism is a growing cancer in the world. Violent tendencies seem to have seeped into the very heart of the Islamic leadership and scholarship … and has continued to drive the ummah closer to the edge. The Osama problem is not confined to one person … but to individuals and organizations scattered all over the world … bound by a misguided ideology … brutally seeking political power.

Being a man of somewhat religious disposition, I am reminded of a saying of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) … that a day will come, when scholars in his ummah will be the lowest of Allah’s creations. I think we are witnessing those very times.

Finally: So, in end analysis … I see this as a conflict between two parties … both of whom are on the wrong side of the issue. Who is more wrong … is somewhat of a relative issue. As usual, the innocents suffer … in Palestine, in WTC, in Kabul, Bali, Basra, Karachi … and so on. My fear all along has been that … this war will strengthen fundamentalism … which in turn will lead to more terrorism. From what I gather, the forgotten nation governed from Kabul is now no closer to democracy than before … and the looming US election may very sell send Iraq down the same road. This will surely escalate the existing global turmoil.

There you have it … I have blamed each and every group here … and even sounded like Limbaugh at times. It’s now time for chowk-hawks to have a go at it …

Following is information about the new photos that have been shown to the US Senate. They are supposed to be worse than what has been seen, so far. The USA govt. is trying hard to make sure they are not released to the public. I am not sure whether it will be successful:

``The pictures show further abuse of Iraqi prisoners, including forced homosexual sex, military dogs snarling at prisoners and Iraqi women commanded to expose their breasts.

Some senators said there were images of hooded Iraqi prisoners being forced to masturbate.

Some pictures also appear to depict consensual sex involving U.S. military personnel.`` (www.msn.ca)

The USA govt. sent a Canadian citizen, Mehr Ahrar, for torture to Syria. So there is a precedence for all of this. I am surprised, people are so surprised to find out that the USA policy is based on such acts, in other countries. Many of us have been pointing them out for a while now, in our debates with individuals like tahmad and hamidm, and others......

P.S. Interestingly, Mrs. Mehr Ahrar, a hijab-wearing, thirty-something, Ph.D in economics from McGill university, has become somewhat of a hero in Canada. One of the Canda`s three main political parties, the NDP, has given her a ticket of Canada`s equivalent of the National Assembly. It would be interesting if she won.......

hassansiddiqi #53: ``I guess it all comes down to ``might is right.`` What ever happens later is just showbusiness. Politicians showing ``outrage`` when all they want is a seat in the White House. Sad but true.``

Yes. I agree.

Two-thirds of USA still supports Rumsfeld. So he will stay. Firing him could be political suicide, for a President who is relying on the Rush Limbaugh audience for his core support. If two-thirds started opposing Rumsfeld, he would be fired, much like Trent Lott was. It has nothing to do with morality. He just came on the news today, stating that he saw nothing wrong with US interrogation policies in Iraq. Once again, because this is what the opinion polls were indicating. Just two days ago, he had stated exactly the opposite.

``Might is right,`` is the rule. And this is what has been proven in Iraq. Americans have been defeated, and are leaving. In fact, they are struggling to find an exit strategy. Unfortunately, they were not defeated because they became moral all of a sudden, on this issue. They are leaving, because the lost militarily to the gurreillas and militants.

Iraqis have done a huge favor to the rest of the world. They have knocked out the neo-cons. And they have given a voice to the so-far impotent Democrats. Instead of putting Iran on the axis of evil, the USA is now asking Irani clerics to help them in Iran. And instead of demonizing the UN, the USA is begging it to get it out of the mess. And instead of showing pictures of Saddam Hussain`s torture, the USA is running around trying to ensure, its own pictures of torture do not come out.

In the end of this war, obviously, the biggest losers will be Iraqis, since they have faced the most destruction. However, the USA has lost out also. It has lost its, ``aura of invincibility`` in a unipolar world. No one will take, ``axis of evil`` statements seriously any longer......Before Iraq, people did take them seriously.

Interestingly, one would think that Arabs hate the USA more than anyone. But South Americans hate the USA, a lot also. Talk to someone from Chile, and he may be a bigger fan of OBL, than many Arabs.....

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concerned #151

but never chinese treatment of tibetans. the chinese are off-limits for human rights champions like romair.

HA HA HA HA!

No, each Chinese is a new Mohammad, blameless no matter what he does :)

HP #48,

You are fighting a losing battle, as far as this board is concerned. There are simply
too many razor-sharp minds for you to go against - all beacons of piety and human
rights worldwide. Asking them to peek at their own backyard is a tad unfashionable.

It is truly staggering - the pomposity on display here.

arright you brownies start a campaign to clean up abuses in tihar and attock jails etc. at least take some pictures.

It seems like the these days the only way people resort to raising an objection to atrocities commited is by commiting a similar if not worse one. Cutting off the head of an American apparently brings peace to the heart of some people...but simply makes me sick. There is no justification for what either side is doing...Although what amazes and hurts me is the victims are innocent people, being taught a lesson for jsut existing.

Romair #46

I totally agree with you. I guess it all comes down to ``might is right.`` What ever happens later is just showbusiness. Politicians showing ``outrage`` when all they want is a seat in the White House. Sad but true.

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romair #50,

[...But do keep in mind that many of us have been writing against any kind of human rights abuse, regardless of nation, religion or ethnicity. From Turkish treatment of Kurds, Pakistani treatment of Bengalis, Indian treatment of Kashmiris, OBL`s treatement of Americans, Israeli treatment of Palestinians, American treatment of Iraqis etc...]

but never chinese treatment of tibetans. the chinese are off-limits for human rights champions like romair.

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dost-mittar #44: ``Yes, but I would include in it the silence towards human rights abuses by despotic regimes in the middle east or issues where certain countries confiscate bible before you enter their country?``

Very true.

But do keep in mind that many of us have been writing against any kind of human rights abuse, regardless of nation, religion or ethnicity. From Turkish treatment of Kurds, Pakistani treatment of Bengalis, Indian treatment of Kashmiris, OBL`s treatement of Americans, Israeli treatment of Palestinians, American treatment of Iraqis etc.

The easiest indication to find out where massive crimes are being committed is to find out where human rights organizations are banned. There is always a direct link. The Int. Red Cross has recently stated that 70-90% of the inmates in the prison in Iraq are innocent. No wonder the Americans want to keep them out of the prisons.....

This is also why I think one`s loyalty should always be to human rights, and never to religionism, secularism, ethnicism, or even to undemocratic ``democracies.``