Trade, can it Herald Peace?

veeresh ji -- you say you have been at it for the past few weeks -- on this board, ji, its the other way round -- i have contested your claims, most of which are quite absurd and ill-informed (the gem being the daewoo-tata motorway) to merit repeating on this post --

lopsided approach,

Trade and people o people contacts are the outcome of two nations having similar values, similar institutional arrangemenbts. During the communist days not many from other countries visited them, there was hardly ant trade. The situation ius very similar between pakistan and india. In terms of the world views, pakistan is miles apart from india. Jihadis rule the streets of pakistan. I was reading an article that in karachi, industries cannot operate at night because people are not ready to come out at night. One can imagine its impact on costs due to low capital utilisation.

Murder of a human is not a crime against the state, the families of the dead have to pursue it through the corts. A politician is deported while mushy is offering residency for terrorists in pakistan. Dawwod ibrahim under this law has been staying in pakistan.

Every one who starts trade with pakistan will be the looser. At the start of next hostility his assets will be looted. When pakistanis talk about babri masjid, no one dares to mention the temples destroyed in pakistan. Only once PM on chowk acknowl;edgd this. No dawn will dare to report this. No Omar will dare to write an editorial. Pakistanis have xplained this as spontaneous reaction, well what will happen to any indo pak industries due to this spontaneous reaction.

There are no company laws and trade rules. no legislative activity has taken place since mushgy came to power. It is pure wishful thinking by the ilks of dost mitter and stuke and others from the hindi belt who find so much of cultural similarity with pakistan. They forget taht there is no similarity between the valeus reflectsd in society. As the war on terror progresses, a pak visa stamp on your passport, one will live to regret it.

On automobile parts in general:

Look at any independent garage (almost extinct at this point) or auto parts shop in the US. There will be a blue sign saying ``NAPA`` indicating they sell approved replacements for Original Equipment (genuine brand-name) spare parts.

You would have the choice of buying GM (or Ford or Chrysler) parts or their identical (in measurements) replacements made to NAPA specifications. These NAPA parts are made all over the world. You wouldn`t buy an alternator from GM, you would buy a NAPA alternator because it is cheaper. (Trivia: In fact, in the case of alternators, you wouldn`t buy a new one but a ``remanufactured`` one since it is cheaper.)

OEM radiator caps for GM cars are sourced exclusively from TVS. NAPA radiator caps are made by... who knows and who cares?

Jang # 40

``Some bad collective memories from pre-partition days?``

As a matter of fact yes - there are memories (not mine, since I was in a fluid form then, but that of the generations that preceded me.)

As I mentioned earlier in a post that I had a meeting with some Pakistani cloth merchants recently; when the debate got heated up some other people joined in the discussion as well. Some of them were of the older generation who were in their late 80s and discussion turned towards the business ethics of the Muslims/Pakistanis. A question was posed as to why do Pakistani businessmen have such an abysmal business ethics while their own Prophet (pbuh) and number of his associates were businessmen themselves. Someone suggested that as compared to us the buniya has relatively sound business ethics. A number of theories and social analyses were presented. Our Tao Ji in his late late 80s had this to say.

He said that it all happened before and after the War of Independence in 1857. Even decades before the war British started promoting Hindus as a business class to weaken the political clout of the Muslims; the baniya on the other hand was always in business because of their caste system. So after 1857, the Muslims lost not only their political power that protected their capital but also the capital itself through confiscations followed by public executions, and simply loot. So as a result, until the start of WWI, Muslims did not have any capital to do any kind of business. During the WWI British contracted out work to Muslims as well and first time after almost three quarter of a century later Muslims began to see any form of capital coming towards them. Since, British were also fighting against Ottoman Caliphate the Muslim mindset was to rip British off if nothing else to get even with an overwhelming oppressive force. That sowed the seeds of bad business ethics in Muslims the first time. War is an ugly business and baniya employed unethical methods as well but Brits needed help from Muslims on two fronts – one, they needed man power to strengthen their military force spread across Arab and African continent and second, they wanted to pacify Muslim sentiment against them, which was on the peak during Khilafat Movement of Ali Brethren.

After the war Muslims gained some capital to start businesses with, but they did not have political clout to protect the businesses. The wholesale business was absolutely owned by buniya and he wouldn`t sell merchandise to a Muslim at a price that would keep him competitive with his Hindu counterpart. The years between the two great wars are a sad story of Muslim failure to do business. In addition, they also had to survive the great depression of the 30s, which effected everyone globally. Then the WWII came. Brits again needed Muslim help. The Muslim business mindset that took its roots during WWI and strengthened during the failures of 20s and 30s became very aggressive in ripping Brits off to get even for the failures of past many decades. That is exactly the reason why when during the war years when Muslim League presented his idea of a separate homeland where there would be economic independence and freedom from the economic oppression by Brits and Hindus, the idea not only appealed to the masses but also to the business class. And hence our Quaid-e-Azam won us the economic freedom that we had been yearning for so long.

After Pakistan came into being what we got in result, however, was high ambitions, no capital, and a very bad business ethic. Every Pakistani interlocutor on this forum will attest to this effect. So in Tao Ji`s analysis Muslim business class is extremely ill prepared to take on the global challenges let alone dealing with the buniya. It is shortsighted, and it is greedy. In addition, Tao Ji opined that Hindu over the years has not changed his mindset either. He longs for those years when he could exploit without impunity and he yearns for the chance to get even with Muslims again.

I agree with Tao Ji. Personally, I hold a very low opinion about Hindus as a nation and a business class. The self-serving, condescending and mindless drivel that they spew here in their travelogues (about Pak) and very interacts on this thread when they talk about business is an evidence of a deeply ingrained inferiority complex and contempt that they harbor against Pakistanis in particular and Muslims in general. Now how can we do business with you? Give me one good reason.

niranjan -- interesting you bring up that discussion of my weenie is bigger than yours -- one guy in particular seems to be doing it here on this board -- now his claim that all radiator caps are made by one company in the world -- and guess where he`s from niranjan ?

bongdongs and asfand -- prepare now to be flooded with dozens of posts that will talk down to you, refuse to accept what you have to say and end up leaving you with considerable regret at having said something against the venerable veeresh ji --

bongdongs -- i dont think its a problem at all to have an indian piston in a pakistani car -- the problem is when some dude sitting in delhi insists that all paki cars (well most of them) have indian pistons -- AND THAT DRIVERS CALL THE DAEWOO MOTORWAY THE DAEWOO TATA MOTORWAY -- hahaha -- that was a particularly creative one -- i know dozens of people who have travelled on this, including journalists and they never picked this change in nomenclature but this itinerent traveller comes from india and picks it up, starts telling the whole world that is the case and insists he is not wrong --

veeresh ji -- naheen i get none of the points -- and plz dont bother explaining yet again -- arjun 54# hahaha this isnt a political argument -- i cant seem to understand why veeresh is insisting that he`s right -- when so many pakistanis LIVING in pakistan are interacting here and would probably have more authentic information than him -- as for your statement ``Let them live under the illusion that trade between the two countries won`t benefit Pakistan more`` -- actually many business people do think that pakistan can also benefit -- in any case, thats more an economics thing -- that is not what is under debate here -- clearly veeresh ji you dont get it, and i dont think ever will -- when he is confronted with the facts -- by an interview by the MD of Tetley in Pakistan saying that company is a joint venture with Tetley UK, when he ist old that santros here do not say MADE In INDIA he then engages in further semantic exercises -- veeresh ji you are quite good at obfuscating the obvious and unfortunately do not seem to have the moral courage to admit that you have been cornered -- but its ok, i dont think u will ever get that either --

Bongdongs 62/Asfand 60:-

a) TVS on radiators ofr OE equipment to the automobile industry, almost 100%.
b) There is a back-to-back majority holding in IVECO by a Hinduja company.
c) Please ask a friend to travel on a bus on the Lahore-Islamabad Highway.

Point I am making here is:-

a) Indian goods have entered the Pakistani market. Previously by back doors, smuggling and others, now courtesy joint ventures and third parties, usually using switch bills of lading route. Mr. Patriot therefore pays 2-3 times the cost of a tyre, for example.

b) These routes, to shield identity, only increase the prices to the eventual customer, Mr. Patriot.

c) However, to keep Mr. Patriot in his place spending higher, the establishment brings out the ``India will swallow you card``.

d) Interim, the local manufacturers, also Patriots, if any, do not get any encouragement to work efficiently.

e) At the end of the day, therefore, the Patriots continue using Indian goods and paying more.

Poor Mr. Patriot.

There is no alternative to trade.

It is a great vehicle to start anew.


Ras

#60 asfand

There is a fair amount of BS with the pearls Veeresh spills out, for instance:

- On radiator caps he is referring to Sundaram Fasteners, a TVS group company which supplies radiator caps to GM, a far cry from 100% of the North American market let alone world market.
- Iveco is not owned by Hinduja`s but is a major part of the FIAT group. Iveco has a stake in Ashok Leyland of India which is majority owned by Hindujas.
- Hinduja`s do not have a stake in Hino Japan, Ashok Leyland manufactures Hino engines under license in India (perhaps similar to engines in Hino-Pak vehicles)
-For the life of me I can`t believe that Pak truckers call the Lahore-Islamabad freeeway as the Daewoo-Tata freeway.

...

The best comment was made, as always, by Arjun.

Pakistanis will agree to trade when they themselves are ready to open up their society. No amount of reasoning by Indians is going to convince the Romairs and the Ahmadzais. Indians should trade with others who are ready.

fair question...i live permanently in the US, have many friends from pakistan, would like to see pakistan have a fair shot just like any other nation at providing a fair QOL for its` citizens.Actions however speak for themselves.You see how a diverse,, multicultural society such as india can makes its` voice heard by force of its own endeavors and make an impact on the world stage.Why not your country.This topic is just about that.Your response is typical..the ``if you don`t agree or like us get out`` kind of immature, peurile, grandstanding that you guys always bring everything down to.As an indian american i`m flattered that my native county is an object of obsession by one of its` neighbors.I would settle for a genuine friendship, though.I ``grace`` chowk `cause i`m fascinated by south asia and curious as to what is going on there.I admire India for taking the right steps in the right direction and i have seen the difference those steps have led to.I see a proud country already deemed a major player in the world stakes even when only one-fifth of its` people have been taking those steps.Imagine if all 1 billion people of India worked in one accord , then surely this century`s newest superpower will be ``made`` as has been predicted.Atleast, india and indians have something to aspire to.Chowk has educated me to the real pakistani, not the ones still living in the US.Scary.No wonder Jinnah regretted his ``blunder`` as he put it.Or something like that.I don`t want another outpouring of venom!!!.

Veeresh Sahib/Sahiba??

Your comment:
``And before anybody blows their top, please be aware that almost 100% of all radiator caps worldwide are now made in India by one company, again, from the TVS Group. ``

This is hard to believe. On pure economics term, is there total monopoly on radiator caps by TVS group and nobody in the world is making radiator caps??


I did a quick search on google.com and the found out various companies making radiator caps. These companies are spread around China, Taiwan, Japan, Korea, USA and some Euro countries. Does that mean TVS group owns all the companies accross the board??

I am not trying to discredit your comment but I have hard time accepting it.

Asfand

Niranjan #55,

``I guess its` futile to expect anything from a feudal, bigoted and repressed society
like pakistan.``

Yes, absolutely. May I ask why you grace chowk with your presence, then ?

niranjan #55 `` have found that it is futile to even engage with pakistanis on anything ``

good. bye bye. go to suleikha or someplace and enjoy talking to one another about those bad pakistanis.

#57 by bongdongs

``Indian piston in your engine? `` heh heh heh

reminds me of a typical english street performer question/joke:

SF to a woman from crowd ``pardon me, but you look as if there is some english in you``
Woman says no (she is african-american)
SF ``oh well, would you like some?``

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