Trade, can it Herald Peace?

There is no alternative to trade.

It is a great vehicle to start anew.


Ras

Bongdongs 62/Asfand 60:-

a) TVS on radiators ofr OE equipment to the automobile industry, almost 100%.
b) There is a back-to-back majority holding in IVECO by a Hinduja company.
c) Please ask a friend to travel on a bus on the Lahore-Islamabad Highway.

Point I am making here is:-

a) Indian goods have entered the Pakistani market. Previously by back doors, smuggling and others, now courtesy joint ventures and third parties, usually using switch bills of lading route. Mr. Patriot therefore pays 2-3 times the cost of a tyre, for example.

b) These routes, to shield identity, only increase the prices to the eventual customer, Mr. Patriot.

c) However, to keep Mr. Patriot in his place spending higher, the establishment brings out the ``India will swallow you card``.

d) Interim, the local manufacturers, also Patriots, if any, do not get any encouragement to work efficiently.

e) At the end of the day, therefore, the Patriots continue using Indian goods and paying more.

Poor Mr. Patriot.

veeresh ji -- naheen i get none of the points -- and plz dont bother explaining yet again -- arjun 54# hahaha this isnt a political argument -- i cant seem to understand why veeresh is insisting that he`s right -- when so many pakistanis LIVING in pakistan are interacting here and would probably have more authentic information than him -- as for your statement ``Let them live under the illusion that trade between the two countries won`t benefit Pakistan more`` -- actually many business people do think that pakistan can also benefit -- in any case, thats more an economics thing -- that is not what is under debate here -- clearly veeresh ji you dont get it, and i dont think ever will -- when he is confronted with the facts -- by an interview by the MD of Tetley in Pakistan saying that company is a joint venture with Tetley UK, when he ist old that santros here do not say MADE In INDIA he then engages in further semantic exercises -- veeresh ji you are quite good at obfuscating the obvious and unfortunately do not seem to have the moral courage to admit that you have been cornered -- but its ok, i dont think u will ever get that either --

niranjan -- interesting you bring up that discussion of my weenie is bigger than yours -- one guy in particular seems to be doing it here on this board -- now his claim that all radiator caps are made by one company in the world -- and guess where he`s from niranjan ?

bongdongs and asfand -- prepare now to be flooded with dozens of posts that will talk down to you, refuse to accept what you have to say and end up leaving you with considerable regret at having said something against the venerable veeresh ji --

bongdongs -- i dont think its a problem at all to have an indian piston in a pakistani car -- the problem is when some dude sitting in delhi insists that all paki cars (well most of them) have indian pistons -- AND THAT DRIVERS CALL THE DAEWOO MOTORWAY THE DAEWOO TATA MOTORWAY -- hahaha -- that was a particularly creative one -- i know dozens of people who have travelled on this, including journalists and they never picked this change in nomenclature but this itinerent traveller comes from india and picks it up, starts telling the whole world that is the case and insists he is not wrong --

Jang # 40

``Some bad collective memories from pre-partition days?``

As a matter of fact yes - there are memories (not mine, since I was in a fluid form then, but that of the generations that preceded me.)

As I mentioned earlier in a post that I had a meeting with some Pakistani cloth merchants recently; when the debate got heated up some other people joined in the discussion as well. Some of them were of the older generation who were in their late 80s and discussion turned towards the business ethics of the Muslims/Pakistanis. A question was posed as to why do Pakistani businessmen have such an abysmal business ethics while their own Prophet (pbuh) and number of his associates were businessmen themselves. Someone suggested that as compared to us the buniya has relatively sound business ethics. A number of theories and social analyses were presented. Our Tao Ji in his late late 80s had this to say.

He said that it all happened before and after the War of Independence in 1857. Even decades before the war British started promoting Hindus as a business class to weaken the political clout of the Muslims; the baniya on the other hand was always in business because of their caste system. So after 1857, the Muslims lost not only their political power that protected their capital but also the capital itself through confiscations followed by public executions, and simply loot. So as a result, until the start of WWI, Muslims did not have any capital to do any kind of business. During the WWI British contracted out work to Muslims as well and first time after almost three quarter of a century later Muslims began to see any form of capital coming towards them. Since, British were also fighting against Ottoman Caliphate the Muslim mindset was to rip British off if nothing else to get even with an overwhelming oppressive force. That sowed the seeds of bad business ethics in Muslims the first time. War is an ugly business and baniya employed unethical methods as well but Brits needed help from Muslims on two fronts – one, they needed man power to strengthen their military force spread across Arab and African continent and second, they wanted to pacify Muslim sentiment against them, which was on the peak during Khilafat Movement of Ali Brethren.

After the war Muslims gained some capital to start businesses with, but they did not have political clout to protect the businesses. The wholesale business was absolutely owned by buniya and he wouldn`t sell merchandise to a Muslim at a price that would keep him competitive with his Hindu counterpart. The years between the two great wars are a sad story of Muslim failure to do business. In addition, they also had to survive the great depression of the 30s, which effected everyone globally. Then the WWII came. Brits again needed Muslim help. The Muslim business mindset that took its roots during WWI and strengthened during the failures of 20s and 30s became very aggressive in ripping Brits off to get even for the failures of past many decades. That is exactly the reason why when during the war years when Muslim League presented his idea of a separate homeland where there would be economic independence and freedom from the economic oppression by Brits and Hindus, the idea not only appealed to the masses but also to the business class. And hence our Quaid-e-Azam won us the economic freedom that we had been yearning for so long.

After Pakistan came into being what we got in result, however, was high ambitions, no capital, and a very bad business ethic. Every Pakistani interlocutor on this forum will attest to this effect. So in Tao Ji`s analysis Muslim business class is extremely ill prepared to take on the global challenges let alone dealing with the buniya. It is shortsighted, and it is greedy. In addition, Tao Ji opined that Hindu over the years has not changed his mindset either. He longs for those years when he could exploit without impunity and he yearns for the chance to get even with Muslims again.

I agree with Tao Ji. Personally, I hold a very low opinion about Hindus as a nation and a business class. The self-serving, condescending and mindless drivel that they spew here in their travelogues (about Pak) and very interacts on this thread when they talk about business is an evidence of a deeply ingrained inferiority complex and contempt that they harbor against Pakistanis in particular and Muslims in general. Now how can we do business with you? Give me one good reason.

On automobile parts in general:

Look at any independent garage (almost extinct at this point) or auto parts shop in the US. There will be a blue sign saying ``NAPA`` indicating they sell approved replacements for Original Equipment (genuine brand-name) spare parts.

You would have the choice of buying GM (or Ford or Chrysler) parts or their identical (in measurements) replacements made to NAPA specifications. These NAPA parts are made all over the world. You wouldn`t buy an alternator from GM, you would buy a NAPA alternator because it is cheaper. (Trivia: In fact, in the case of alternators, you wouldn`t buy a new one but a ``remanufactured`` one since it is cheaper.)

OEM radiator caps for GM cars are sourced exclusively from TVS. NAPA radiator caps are made by... who knows and who cares?

lopsided approach,

Trade and people o people contacts are the outcome of two nations having similar values, similar institutional arrangemenbts. During the communist days not many from other countries visited them, there was hardly ant trade. The situation ius very similar between pakistan and india. In terms of the world views, pakistan is miles apart from india. Jihadis rule the streets of pakistan. I was reading an article that in karachi, industries cannot operate at night because people are not ready to come out at night. One can imagine its impact on costs due to low capital utilisation.

Murder of a human is not a crime against the state, the families of the dead have to pursue it through the corts. A politician is deported while mushy is offering residency for terrorists in pakistan. Dawwod ibrahim under this law has been staying in pakistan.

Every one who starts trade with pakistan will be the looser. At the start of next hostility his assets will be looted. When pakistanis talk about babri masjid, no one dares to mention the temples destroyed in pakistan. Only once PM on chowk acknowl;edgd this. No dawn will dare to report this. No Omar will dare to write an editorial. Pakistanis have xplained this as spontaneous reaction, well what will happen to any indo pak industries due to this spontaneous reaction.

There are no company laws and trade rules. no legislative activity has taken place since mushgy came to power. It is pure wishful thinking by the ilks of dost mitter and stuke and others from the hindi belt who find so much of cultural similarity with pakistan. They forget taht there is no similarity between the valeus reflectsd in society. As the war on terror progresses, a pak visa stamp on your passport, one will live to regret it.

veeresh ji -- you say you have been at it for the past few weeks -- on this board, ji, its the other way round -- i have contested your claims, most of which are quite absurd and ill-informed (the gem being the daewoo-tata motorway) to merit repeating on this post --

#66 -- oops it has already begun -- my sympathies are with you bong/asfand -- veeresh sahib -- `ask anyone who travels on the lahore-isb motorway` -- already did,s everal who use it quite frequently, they laughed in my face, thought i was a lunatic -- and they arent the nationalistic types, if something like this was happening they would be the first to tell others -- seriously veeresh sahib, seriously - poor mr. Veeresh

Vereesh #66: ``Poor Mr. Patriot.``

I truly hope that you do not work in the sales department of any Indian company; specifically one that wants to sell in Pakistan. Whatever opportunities that company may have in selling in Pakistan, will be ruined by your comments and attitudes.

If there is one thing I have learnt, after becoming a businessman (albeit a small-businessman, at the moment) is that humility goes a long way. The other thing I have learnt is that businessmen have one aim: to successfully (and hopefully legally) make money, and more money

I get hired to give advice to companies in how to set up and/or overhaul their IT depts. This involves sitting down with VPs and CIOs and advising them. One of the hot issues at the moment is off-shore development. Every single client has asked me about where they should do off-shore development. And I have told every single one to go to India. Even though I am a Pakistani. Why? Because, at the moment, I think that is where they will make the most money.

During this process, I end up meeting sales reps from Indian off-shore companies. The one from Tata, handling a major part of North America, is a close acquintance. We are family friends now, and watch Indian movies together, whenever we meet. I have worked with the Infosys guys also. And will be meeting Wipro shortly. There is one trend about all Indian IT people I have met in North America, that I greatly admire. They are all extremely humble. They are the most humble successful people I have ever met, in my life. Quite the opposite of most Indians I come across on Chowk.

Not once have they told me how India`s IT industry is gigantic, while Pakistan`s is tiny (which it is). They have never told me that all the radiators in Pakistan are made in India (even if they are). Or how everyone in Pakistan is Mr. Patriot, while everyone in India is Mr. Peaceful. To make a long story short, they never concentrate on one-upmanship, even in areas, where they could. Either because they are good salespersons, or because it not their nature, or because they know I am not an idiot and understand profit and loss, as well as they do.

Now, imagine what would happen if they followed the same logic and marketing approach you are following. If they tried to show me that they know more about Pakistan, than I do, even though I have grown up in Pakistan, and they have spent five days there. And that I need to get my act together. And that Mr. Patriot is the only things keeping Indian CDs out of Pakistan, etc. What would be my reaction? Do you think I would buy their nonsense? Do you think the next time I advised a VP, I would be inclined to advise him to go to India, or to go to China or Russia or Pakistan?

Humility goes a long way. As does an attempt to not be judgemental. Pakistani businessmen got into privatisation in the late 50s - thirty years ahead of anyone else in South Asia. They are quite shrewd. They know a good deal when they see it. You don`t need to convince them. In fact, your arguments may actually drive quite a few away, rather than attract more.......

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Urstruely

``Now how can we do business with you? Give me one good reason. ``

1. God is on your side. Why, you a proud musalman fear minor banya intellect? You go around quoting One-Hair (Iqbal) and his claim to khudi, and you are scared of indulging in little bussiness? This after being a follower of a great bussinessman of 7-th century arabia? This is unforgivable.

2. Yes, the Sahukar of the yesteryear is much-maligned. My own folks told me of how the money lending in pre-partition pak was all in bania hands. Evene Alamgir Aurangzeb had to deal with moneylender banias to finance his campaigs. So i understand your pain, however, this is all yesterdays social structure. Today, the sons of sahukars have to do govt jobs and software writing as anyone else. So, as far as you are willing to accept that musalman may not necessarily dominate, the playing field is level. Consider that with baygahirat banias help, aam musalmans lifestyle may actually improve! Currently, granted that some musalmans dominate in pakistan, but at the expense of a large number of other musalmans.

so there, two reasons. And by the way, your last post was long-winded but did not make a crisp point as your posts normally tend to make. was it from romair?

Veeresh ji, can you tell me what products Pakistan can sell to India? Will India agree for Gas Pipeline through Pakistan, will India Purchase Electricity, No India will never.

ULTRA PATRIOT, is it Economical for India to buy Expensive LPG via Tankers instead of cheaper Gas directly via Pakistan?.

``If one were to analyze the steps taken by each nation so as to bolster trade related ties, it would be clear that India has clearly accorded more sops to Pakistan and the latter’s reciprocation amounts to a naught.......The army is powerful, and lots of other big problems exist in Pakistan. Conflict with India is something the army needs to justify its own existence, and something the government (whether civilian or army) can use to divert attention from domestic problems...again a time-tested practice......The popular refrain so far has been that Pakistan cannot award such a ‘coveted’ status to a country with which it has an ‘ideological’ conflict........In political terms the stated position of Pakistan for popular consumption or for gallery is it could not trade with India on the blood of the Kashmiris.........Pakistan watchers on this side of the border (India) reckon that the Pakistan Army has a vested interest in not allowing more trade to flow across the divide. Trade would inevitably increase people to people contact and this would mean that the army’s control over the establishment would loosen as increasing number of people would interact with people from the ‘other side’ and this would mean infusion of liberal ideas in the hereto closed society. ........that existing power equations in Pakistan mean that self-interested people would lose more from peace than war.``

Why does every Indian article on Pakistan, blames Pakistan for nearly everything? Indian writers, quoting Indian professors, and Indian websites, painting strange pictures of Pakistan. No wonder Indians were so suprised and overwhelmed when they saw Paksitan, in person..... :-)

Perhaps the first thing that needs to happen, for peace, is for Indians to carry out some introspection, and to get a more objective view of the whole situation, in South Asia, and spread blame equally.....Otherwise, India will turn into Vereeshabad, i.e. well-meaning Indians, who genuinely want peace with Pakistan, but are convinced that Pakistan is the cause of all the problems between India and Pakistan........And desparately wanting Pakistan, ``to get its act together,`` while being convinced that India is not to blame for much.......

``Humility goes a long way.``

Look who is talking.

Jang

Two reasons but neither is compelling or worth losing sleep over.

In todays newspaper there are two essays on SAFTA and trade with India. One essay that cautions us to observe restraint in business with India cites that in the fiscal year 2002-3 Pakistan`s exports to India were 70.6 mil US dollars whereas imports from India were 616.5 mil US dollars. And this is when SAFTA is three years away. Then he cites a case about a recent conference held in Islamabad by SMEDA (small and medium size enterprise development authority) where none of the participants in conference could tell what SAFTA stood for. Then he cited about another recent conference by ministry of agriculture where the news about SAFTA were heard with a jaw dropping surprise.

The second essay that supports the SAFTA agreement and seems to be towing the government line portrays it as one of the greatest human achievement in this part of world. After the usual sarkari emotional drivel when author comes down to building the case for SAFTA he elaborates it on as if SAFTA will only allow discretionary trade between the two countries. But SAFTA trade is not discretionary. It is an open border documented trade. He mentions that SAFTA would mean import of some chemicals and processed steel from India and also tea. He states that the average mutual trade between two countries is between 250 - 300 mil US$ whereas illegal trade between the two countries is close to 1.6 billion us$. He argues that SAFTA will help legalize this trade which is a 64 thousand dollar joke.

The fact of the matter is that government has continually shirking its duty to disclose the details of SAFTA and what it entails for the farmers, producers, and consumers of Pakistan. The issue of SAFTA was never debated in National Assembly and despot and his cronnies signed it without taking the nation into confidence. Therefore it is the duty of every Paksitani to reject SAFTA and WTO. Both of these attrocities amount to our national collective suicide. As long as there is taxation without representation, as long as there is no proper and independent legislative body in Paksitan that would not only look after the interests of not only the businessman but also that of manufacturer and consumer we the people of Paksitan cannot allow fauji dumbfucks to a collective economic murder of us all. Therefore it is imperative for all Paksitanis to support all those forces who promise our retraction from the attrocities of WTO and SAFTA but also the public executions of faujis.