Carnage in Karachi

ferozk -- if you didnt get that from the editorial then what can i say -- forget the posts -- since i am being held accountable for my editorial let me quote from it, here is the relevant passages

``Every time a bombing takes place and innocent lives are lost, every senior government functionary expresses his resolve to track down the killers and bring them to justice and promises that elements behind such acts will be rooted out. And then all is forgotten about promised preventive and punitive action until another bomb blast occurs or another spree of religious or sectarian violence takes place. Karachi is dotted with security posts and barriers and citizens going on their daily business are checked and harassed, and yet the trouble-makers appear to enjoy the freedom of the city and strike at will. This kind of approach is inherently flawed and will never lead to a reduction in terrorism because those who carry out such acts will always be a step ahead of the government and its preventive and control agencies. Ministers, or their masters, who keep on telling the public that the law and order situation in the country is under control or that extremism is being dealt with effectively should instead spend their time formulating strategies that succeed in preventing acts of terrorism. To be sure, this is not an easy task, especially when one does not fully understand the forces at work behind suicide bombings and other acts of terrorism, but how many attacks must take place for the government to realize that something is missing in its anti-terrorism strategy? One can understand that once, or perhaps twice, a terrorist attack catches the law enforcement agencies off guard, but for them to be caught unawares most of the time is inexcusable and, when one looks at the cost of such inaction, criminal.

Time and again, the president has reiterated that the government is committed to stamping out religious militancy, extremism and bigotry and wants to eliminate the scourge of sectarianism from Pakistani society. Such words need to be backed up with actions. Administrative measures, mostly taken only after some bombs have exploded and lives lost, are not enough. The government also needs to do something about the nurseries - the madressahs - some of which breed bigotry, intolerance and hatred for those belonging to other faiths and sects and to come down harshly on mosque imams openly preaching sectarian hatred and militancy. In the longer-term, that is the only way sectarianism and intolerance in society can be curbed and violent acts of terrorism curtailed. It should also be realized that religious intolerance cannot be entirely separated from general intolerance, and that ultimately we have to cut ourselves away from the policies nurtured over the decades that have created our present bigoted state of mind. Meanwhile, although the feelings of anger and frustration generated by the Friday tragedy are understandable, the problem will not go away by random violence on the streets, and everyone should act with restraint. ``

If this is not holding the govt, and society, accountable then i wonder what is


words have to be exact on chowk -- errr.... ok ferozk -- i thought that was the case in general with language esp. when communicating -- by the way ever heard of typos? -- perhaps you did misunderstand my `verbal ramblings` (how can they be verbal i wonder since chowk is not an oral medium but in any case) i implied no such thing no said it, in any case if you didnt get that in the editorial then i suppose i need to say that it is

as for you not being able to decipher my posts feroz, actually i wrote them in quite a sane and peaceful state of mind, its another thing, i suppose, that you didnt understand them -- like i had said earlier in one of my `verbal ramblings` (prob one of the many which you didnt comprehend) that i dont expect you to necessarily understand what i said to you in my posts --

btw enjoy the haagen dazs :)

Omar,

I am sending you an email tonight on ``Khamosh Pani`` the movie.

To confront intolerance in Pakistan, one needs both honesty AND determination.

Religion has been used as a tool by all kinds of Fascist elements in Pakistan.

It is time to confront them openly or they will destroy that country,

(No Ifs ands or buts).

Ras

re`` Omar R. Quraishi # 105

You said, and I quote: ``I SAID THE EDITORIAL WAS IN FACT HOLDING THE GOVT. ACCOUNTABLE``.

Omar, I can find no mention of you having said this statement. The editorial might might have suggested the above mentioned quote, but you never said it. I only read this in post # 105, which was a reply to my post # 95. If you have clearly said this, please cut and paste it in your reply and reference it to your previvous post. When you claimed ``I said...``, please show me, where you have said this in your posts.

Omar, Chowk is medium of expression, where words have to be exact otherwise the vague nature of posts/replies/comments creates a sense of misunderstanding. In all honesty, having read your many posts to me, you do seem to have written them in an agiated of mind, so it is diffcult to decipher, what you really meant.

I accept the fact that I might have misunderstood your verbal ramblings, so to clarify any misunderstandings, did you really say it or did you imply it?

Ciao

ahmadzai:
``There is only one way available to Mian Sahiban to return to Pakistan. Request the Saudis to intervene again. They can take a plea that 3 years ago the circumstances were different and now they would like to be part of the democratic set up of Pakistan again, serve the people, serve Islam, etc. I guarantee 100% that Saudis will listen and try to do everything to get them back. This is the only way. Other than that, they can wait for 6 more years.``

Please rethink what you wrote. You are surrendering the sovereign rights of GOP to a foreign family by accepting their arbitration between the state and its citizens. While I have not seen the text of the agreement between the two parties, the only way out should have been to let Shabaz in and let the Pakistani courts decide what to do with him in light of the agreement entered, including a ruling by the court on the validity of the agreement itself. Any other course would reduce the state to the level of a jirga where the disputing parties let the sardar of another jirga decide their dispute.

Has anyone seen the text of the agreement of sharifs with the Pakistan govt. Who signed this agreement? nawaz? shabash? the entire family? If only one person signed, did he have the power of attorney to sign on behalf of the others? Is this agreement enforceable in a court of law? What were to be the consequences of anyone of them breaking the agreement, presuming this is what Shabaz did? Did the agreement call for his deportation or prosecution in such a situation?

veeresh ji #121 -- naheen veeresh ji -- yeh sirif aap ka forte hai -- your exclusive domain

tahmed sahib -- since temporal sahib responded he prob must be -- actually i was told by one interactor a while back that he was one of the editors --

jay -- im not the `editor` of dawn

ijaz sahib -- im surprised that you should bring your ilog here -- i read it and responded to what you wrote on my ilog -- i suppose i will have to reproduce that here now because you leave me no c hoice -- so here goes --

``this is for ijaz gul -- since he chooses to mention me on his ilog, i suppose this is the only way that he can be responded to -- ijaz sahib plz get your facts right -- mansur ijaz has never written for dawn -- and no one is picking on nooralain, if she chooses to make statements condemning the rest of us, well she has to expect some kind of response -- and ijaz sahib, trust me working at dawn is not a cut and paste job -- ever heard of plagiarism? -- as for me defending the editorial -- well if my organization is being attacked then i should have the guts and sense to defend it -- ijaz sahib, may i also remind you that when the editorial was submitted i explicitly told the chowk editors to attach no byline but they did`` --

and here is what you wrote on May 11 ijaz sahib:

``Banning Panchyats DAWN

In a state where corruption is rampant whenever there is a link between the civil society and state, where the law enforcement agencies and judiciary are the most corrupt and where young boys in jail die as old men with no dispensation of justice, Omar wants the panchyats to be made unlawful. Had he been a village folk, he would have known the positive contributions of this time tested system.

I think that before rejecting a system, we ought to first deliberate an alternative.


May 11, 2004

Dawn

If Omar has been working for the Dawn group for the past ten years then he ought to know that he wrote a series of artiucles on lobbyists in USA alongwith Shaheen sehbai in 1999-2000 for Herald of Dawn group.

``You have indeed attempted to take Chowk by storm. I suggest, you first establish yourself as a valued member of the community like Firzouk, Dost Mitter, Veerish, Noor, Nazar et al. Don`t get sentimental. Life is too short to loose nerves.
Cheerios ``


And here is my response to what you wrote on my ilog:

``May 12, 2004

ijaz gul sahib, there is a big difference between writing for dawn and herald -- one is a daily paper and one is a monthly -- both have entirely different editorial staff headed by their respective editors -- by your logic writing in mag is the same as writing in jang -- i hope you can understand that it is not -- mansur ijaz must have written that piece for herald with mr sehbai but he has not written for the Dawn newspaper -- i hope this is clear enough -- as for `storming` chowk -- trust me ijaz sahib i have better things to do than that, other than my full time job -- `storming` chowk i will leave to the people whom you have mentioned in your ilog``


May 12, 2004

and by the way i have had to `storm chowk` mostly to respond to half-baked assertions, insinuations and prejudgments about me, my work and the place i live at -- ijaz sahib, by the way, dont mistake my sarcasm for sentimentality

May 12, 2004

``haha ijaz sahib -- aap ka bhi kya logic hai -- (i have to respond to you here because you have begun by passing comments on me in your ilog) -- yes panhcayats do sometimes provide quick and speedy justice (which the editorial did recognize) but recent experience in pakistan has show, ijaz sahib, that this quick and speedy `justice` is quite discriminatory towards (a) poor families and (b) particularly against women -- had you known the case on which this editorial was based you probably would also say that some kind of legal sanction needs to be in place -- for the record ijaz sahib, two young girls were ordered raped by a panchayat near Multan, because one male member of their family had allegedly dishonoured a girl from another clan -- one doesnt have to be a `village folk` to know that this kind of `justice` is something that we need to speak out against --``

Sadna:

Like I said in my last post that the ``Mian Bratheran left Pakistan on their own accord under a 10 years exile agreement brokered by Saudis at the request of Mian bratheraan themselves. ``

No one could have sent a Pakistani in exile unless s/he desired. As it is, there are criminal cases against Mian clan. Instead of facing the judiciary and opting for a possible jail term, which is what genuine politicians want - a jail term - so that their political careers blossom, Mian sahiban decided to request for exile in KSA. So a Pakistani never exiled Mian clan. The clan itself opted for a life of luxury instead of potential hardship of a prison.

(btw, reports suggest that the Mian clan is making heavy investments in Saudi Arabia. They have built factories there).

omar_r_quraishi #132
Foreign militants can stay, the agreement signed with THEM is for them to only `register`. This after they killed scores of Pakistani soldiers. No such agreement is available for politicians.

sadna -- thats a question that a spokesman for the state/govt would be in a better position to answer -- many pakistanis are prob wondering the same -- what ahmedzai has written is factually correct -- dont know whether such accords have any legal standing but apparently such an agreement was voluntarily signed by the sharifs renouncing their right to stay in the country for ten years -- as a condition for leaving pakistan --

temporal thanks for pointing those guidelines out -- in my opinion several of your posting/interacting guidelines seem to be routinely violated esp these ones
* Please refrain from personal attacks on writers and respondents
* Please refrain from frivolous statements that are inflammatory towards any race, nationality, ethnicity or religion

i think most people on this site would agree that to be the case judged by the frequency with which such posts appear on most of the boards -- temporal i am not asking or suggesting that anyone be banished -- but what use are editorial guidelines if they are routintely violated and if interactors are allowed to get away with them a lot of the time -- surely you have to balance the right to express one`s views with the right of others to not be offended or personally attacked when they interact here -- i suppose the fact that the editors are part time itself explains the somewhat topsy turvy nature of this website -- thanks anyway -- i actually posted the guidelines here because in the past when i have emailed queries to the editors they have often not been responded to --

jang #130
You are talking of rights of a citizen while living in his country. I am talking of the right of a citizen to live in his country.

#129 by sadna

Are you being facetious? Sharif is just one person, no biggy. An entire population (ahmedis) have been denied full citizenship for a long time (i.e. ahmadi cannot be a prez etc).

ahmedzai #127
I will bet that any such agreement will be found to be unconstitutional, if it was brought to public light. In modern times, even murderers, criminals and thiefs cannot be stripped of their fundamental right to live in the country of their citizenship.

So who are the editors and organizers/managers of Chowk?

Sadna at # 125:

Your question is directed at Omar and he will definitely reply, but let me also take the liberty of responding to it briefly.

``One has to wonder what sort of democracy Gen. Musharraf is claiming to have established when it cannot accomodate a leader with largish mass base. ``

The largish mass base was only able to win 3% of the votes in last elections

``And how the heck does a state manage to deport its own citizens? ``

Under an agreement between the deported and the deportee.

Being from a political family, let me assure you that Mian Bratheran left Pakistan on their own accord under a 10 years exile agreement brokered by Saudis at the request of Mian bratheraan themselves. Please recall that Saudis have friends both with Mian Sahibaan and the present setup.

Mian Shahbaz Shareef went to the UK for medical treatment and was suppose to have gone back to the KSA after expiry of his visa. He decided to ripple the waters a bit by transiting in Pakistan. He knew very well that under the agreement, he cannot set a foot outside of the airport. However, he cleverly managed to run 7 days publicity campaign through our electronic media, which has been given a free hand under the present government.

There is only one way available to Mian Sahiban to return to Pakistan. Request the Saudis to intervene again. They can take a plea that 3 years ago the circumstances were different and now they would like to be part of the democratic set up of Pakistan again, serve the people, serve Islam, etc. I guarantee 100% that Saudis will listen and try to do everything to get them back. This is the only way. Other than that, they can wait for 6 more years.