Carnage in Karachi

tmk -- thanks -- you mean `editorial` by the way :)

Omar:

I didn`t read your clarifications. Good article. And a nice choice of majors at Columbia as well.

-TMK

errr... because i wrote it -- but that aside, the editors of this site were told not to give any byline to it when i submitted it (it should have been obvious to them that editorials represent the point of view of the newspaper they appear in but for some reason my name went along) -- obviously u havent read the 57 times i have pointed that out already on this board --

Omar:

What`s the point of pasting a Dawn editorial under your name??

congratulating your own letter tmk?

Good letter to Daily Times on Sectarianism:

Seminaries and violence

Sir: The recent carnage in Quetta should remind General Musharraf of the unfulfilled promises he made about regulating religious seminaries in Pakistan. These seminaries turn out tens of thousands of students every year who are indoctrinated to adhere to extremely narrow/literal interpretations of Islam. In most cases, these religious students have very limited understanding of the world and tend to judge every issue in religious terms.

This has led to a number of conflicts because many Islamic sects differ with each other on a number of issues. The situation will only get worse as more seminaries are opened.

It is time for the government to consider implementing a ban on opening new seminaries and to close down seminaries that encourage sectarianism and extremism.

This may mean closing down a large number of seminaries, but this will have to be done if Pakistan is to become a progressive and modern state. Proper schools should replace the seminaries. Keeping in mind that many poor Pakistanis send their children to these seminaries because they cannot afford to bring them up or educate them, the government would do well to increase the education budget.

It is imperative for Pakistan’s stability that sectarianism and extremism is eliminated from society. And the first step in this direction will be to close the seminaries that propagate extremism and sectarianism. The sooner this is done, the better. Mere rhetoric is of no use. General Musharraf should know that some of us are still waiting for him to act upon the promises he made.
TAIMUR MASUD KHAN
USA

mog ????

ferozk, plz get a grip -- if you screw up i suppose your answerable to the principal or the administrator or if you are the principal then to the board -- if there is some major screw-up, say a paper being leaked, then it reflects on the whole organization and the principal has to or should take responsibility -- the same organizational principle works in dawn -- if there is a screw up the person has to answer to the editor through his or her supervisor -- and in the end the editor has to take responsibility - legally too, as in going to court to answer cases of defamation or libel and so on -- nobody`s blaming the system -- i was trying to tell you how a newspaper works internally -- you`re obviously not interested -- `justifying excuses to escape responsibility` -- escape responsibility for what ? i am responsible to my immediate superior and eventually to the editor and in my case its the same person -- that was precisely why i made a fuss when this editorial came on this website with a byline -- as for our readers, they can call us, email or write to us -- usually its through the editor -- and we try and address their concerns but it doesnt help if they become personal or begin to launch sweeping/generalized charges/accusations --

The Omar reasons and the excuse and virages proves again that the anglophiles generation nevertheless is not passed us in Pakistan. What does it is the means of journalist, that it cannot take even corrective?

Sometimes one has to know when to stop talking. Especially if it is continually at cross-purposes. It is nothing but a waste of breath one can waste somewhere else.

re: Omar R. Quraishi

Omar, your posts, so far, seem to be justifying excuses to escape responsibility.

I also work under pressure. I also have deadlines. Omar, are you suggesting that only those who work for a newspaper, have to deal with deadlines and work under pressure? If, I make a mistake in my classroom, I accept the responsibility. If Dawn makes a mistakes, who accepts responsibility on the behalf of Dawn? Is Dawn a responsible newspaper or not?

In Pakistan, we have a habit of perpetually blaming the system. We never own up to our responsibility and always dodge by making excuses. Individuals make the system and it is not the other way around. We, Pakistanis, always blame the system, but we never hold ourselves responsible. Afterall, who made the system in Pakistan, if not the Pakistanis? Indians? Americans? Russian? Israelis? Why do we blame everyone under the sun for our problems, but ourselves? Who created most of the problems, which Pakistan faces today? Who created the political mess in Pakistan; the religious intolerance, the ethnic discrimination or the economic disempowerment in Pakistani society? Who?

Ciao

veeresh ji, you are more complexed than previously thought -- i suggest you go see a shrink -- and make it soon -- for the Nth time, i did not say that urmila`s `jhatkas` represented india, i said for PTV to show it reflected a shift in PTV`s policy -- if you cant get a distinction as basic as that then its not my problem -- and no one`s quoting from a govt handout -- another fantasy of yours -- and when you ask, `you would like answers` -- but veeresh sahib, the answers have been given (though its not my job to answer people like you, i have realized), if you cant understand them or are unwilling to digest them or cant see eye-t-eye with them, then its not really my fault -- you, sir, as they say, need to chill out in a big way -- and veeresh ji if you grew up thinking that pakistan was this haven for muslims, i wonder what gave you that impression -- stop tormenting those who were born much later than you and live in another country, go ask these questions from those who schooled you or the pakistanis you interacted -- if you think that as a pakistani i tell indians that pakistan is a haven for muslims, then for you, sir, is little hope --
`dawn or dusk?` wah kya sawal hai!

Omar ji # 159 . . . what for abhee bus karein sirji?

Putting things across as simply as possible:-

For a long time now, since as long as my memory goes and from before too, it seems to me as though ``explaining`` problems especially pertaining to status of Muslims in India was the single role available for Indians in their interactions with Pakistanis.

Right or wrong, good or bad, the demand and attempt to answer was always there, and the media had a field day, Pakistani media asking and Indian media answering. Every communal riot in India would get dissected, and rightly so. Fair enough. Many of us grew up thinking that hey, yes, Pakistan was this heaven for Muslims.

However, when Indians started realising that India is a better place for Muslims, and asking Pakistanis about problems faced by Muslims in Pakistan, or similar, the response from you is ``abhi chup bhee karein``? What for, Omar ji?

There were simply not too many questions about problems for Muslims in Pakistan which Pakistanis had to answer because Indians didn`t know the questions.

Now matters are different.

So when I ask, I would like answers, and is that so incorrect of me?

I don`t get similar responses from the Urdu media in Pakistan. At least they enter into debate. You, you send out patronising and supercilious responses, when I start with asking you how you felt that Urmila Matondkar`s jhatkaas in any way represented India, then you go into twists over the Real role of Father PTV and finally, when the evidence is there under the bonnet, you quote from Press Releases like Government handouts?

Rightly said by a Pakistani, Sir, that ``they`` told us that everything is fine and under control, and then ``they`` told us to drink dhania ka juice, shut the door, ignore the screams, and go to sleep.

Dawn or Dusk??

zahra, you have the right to your opinion but please dont twist the facts -- your assertion that indians never indulge in childish or immature marks is quite untrue -- for the brief time i have been interacting on this site i have seen many indians indulge in paki-bashing at will -- and as the writer of the article (i am not sure whether you know the difference between an article and an editorial but still) i dont think i am the moderator of the discussion -- the moderators of any discussion on any board on this site are the editors of chowk, and i am not one of them -- zahra i dont necessarily come on chowk to `display my intellectual energies`, i have real life for that, esp. my job -- i come to chowk to, if you will, `let my hair down` and this does not necessarily include `displaying my intellectual energies` -- and i dont think i have time to dig up chowk`s archives -- it should be obvious to anyone interacting here that a lot of name-calling and childish remarks get tossed around here on all boards, by pakistanis and indians alike -- zahra stop being such an apologist for pakistanis -- and by the way the interaction, back and forth on this board, wasnt started by me -- if you have the time go back and read the beginning of the board

Omar: I agree with you on the strong connotation associated with the said word. Now, I cannot go back and change what I have written. I do not have the privilege yet. But reading your back and forth made me feel real bad and I could not resist sharing my true sentiments. Should not you be the moderator of the article under discussion? Should you even go where this back and forth is leading you? Do you even call the back and forth ``discussion``? If you do Omar then I am really disappointed. Kindly dig into Chowk`s Archives. You would rarely find Indians engaging in childish stuff. They have much better control on displaying their intellect and routing their energies in positive direction. I thought you could add a lot to Chowk by keeping yourself away from the ususal bickering that is part of Chowk`s culture. I thought fresh perspectives would be healthier but you have already gotten yourself into ego wars. It may be part of displaying your manliness. A typical Pakistani Trait! Just an observation. I certainly have better things to do than writing this, but somehow I wanted to share my two cents. Take it or discard it - certainly, your prerogative. No hard feelings. Somehow, I thought you could do better than what you are getting yourself into. That`s it.
Sorry for the intrusion.
Kindly continue.

zahra, we have been able to talk to each other on this board without using the word `pathetic` even once -- you wonder if there was `any thought` behind the article? well, i dont know, its up to readers to figure that out zahra -- i thought boards were for interaction, arent they ? these remarks by you, zahra, are very `childish`, `pathetic` if i may add -- tch tch

veeresh sahib -- ub bus bhi karein....

ferozk # 154 . . . Rahat is a brand I had in Pindi . . . and as for Amul Dairy ice-creams, they are now available in much of the Persian Gulf, and have recently been launched in the US too. Specific ``desi`` flavours like Alphonso Mango, lychee, sweet melon and fresh-chilli are available in parts of UK-Continent too.

I still don`t see Pakistani media coming out with editorials on the good that is there in Pakistan, though, like good milk products. It is the tragedy of our histories that much time has been lost after Independence playing down many of the good things in our own countries due to a callow and low-on-real-knolwedge media. Sad!

Why do not you correct it? Next Step: I suggest you seriously care to focus on the thought behind the article(if there was any) otherwise this whole back and forth between you and others is simply childish = pathetic.

ferozk -- a typo is a minor spelling mistake done unintentionally -- esp by a sub-editor when he gets a story at 10 at night and when the deadline for that page is 11.30 -- i suggest you hold off judgment on such things unless you see and work in a late-night newsroom yourself -- as for educational standards bit, what i was saying (which you again misunderstood) is that people in a certain educational system cannot be blamed entirely if the standard of the system that they are in is declining -- part of the blame must lie with the system that they are in -- after all they dont live in a vacuum and their failings, or otherwise, reflect society`s failings, or otherwise -- i dont think you know how newspapers work ferozk -- your admission of a mistake point makes no sense -- if a typo or mistake occurs then are you saying that the editor should print a regret or apology the next day? or are you saying that the sub-editor concerned should admit his mistake -- you are of course assuming the latter doesnt happen

---

and its not about making the latter ``admit`` to something but to tell them that certain things need to be corrected -- newspapers like dawn have internal means of trying to ensure that such mistakes do not happen but of course there is no guarantee that they will go away entirely -- your example of core as opposed to corps is not that common as you make it seem -- i read all the major english newspapers inside out every day and such mistakes are a tiny proportion of the overall editorial content -- besides, those who make them dont do it deliberately -- i doubt it that you would deliberately try to teach a way that is either disapproved by your institution or which you know to be wrong --

zahraJ -- what are you trying to say -- `carnages are rampant` ??? that doesn`t even sound right ....

It`s pathetic to even skim through the mindset expressed on this board.
No doubt carnages are rampant!

re: veeresh # 151

Thanks for the suggestion and I would try those ice creams, as soon as they start selling them in Pakistan.

Ciao

re: Omar R. Quraishi

My mistake. You were right and I was wrong about the spelling of the ice cream in question. As to ``bye`` and ``by`` election spellings, I use the American spellings for words. The last time, I used British spellings was in the 1980s. However, your point is noted since the print media in South Asia uses the British spellings and that would explain the reason, why papers use spellings, which I find wrong.

Omar, the point is not about typos per se. The point is about spellings and there is a difference between a typo and a spelling mistake. Are you suggesting that a reporter does not know the difference between a ``core`` and ``corps`` and if s/he knows, how can it be a typo? In any case, whether it is a typo or a spelling mistake, it is a poor reflection on Dawn being an English language newspaper. Most of these ``mistakes`` are in the columns by ``staff reporter``; the editorials are generally free from error of grammar and so are the features in Dawn.

On the other hand, you mentioned on the topic of typos that it ``reflective not of educational qualifications but of the declining standard of education in pakistan``. What is the difference? Does not a declining standard of education reflect educational qualifications? The standard of education determines to a large extent the educational qualifications. This is how it works in the rest of the world.

Omar, a slip of tongue or error made by me, in class, which is later corrected by students, is a reflection of my educational qualifications, because that is how the students will judge me as a teacher in a classroom. I have to be accountable to my students and they have a right to hold me accountable for what I teach them and how I teach it. A person, should not be afraid to admit a mistake and to give credit, where the credit is due. Admiting mistakes is a sign of confidence and if a person is confident in their abilities, they will admit to their mistakes and seek to learn from them and if their are insecure, they will always refuse to admit their mistakes by always trying to claim that they are right.

Ciao

hahah -- terrible joke veeresh sahib -- at least your jokes should be slightly funnier -- travel/automobile writers need to understand that there`s a world of a difference between a haagen dazs and amul dairy -- and that the latter isnt available in pakistan -- `i think`

ferozk # 148 . . . on basis of cost, taste, consistency and general well-being, you should try Amul, Vadilal or Mother Dairy Ice-Creams from India. After discounts and freebies and promos, a litre often ends up costing 50 - 100 rupees retail.

Nirula`s, too, are great. (though I found Nirala`s in Islamabad as good, to tell you the truth. )

At the end of the day, I wish to tell all of you that the ice-cream I had at Rahat in Pindi in the middle of the night was amazing. Just lovely.

Pakistani media needs to spend more time writing editorials about ice-cream from India, I think.

ferozk -- for a teacher i am amazed at your lack of the english knowledge -- using `bye` and not `by` as a prefix to an election depends on usage -- both are correct -- as in `bye` is an acceptable variation for `by`, esp. when used with `election` -- this is a practice that most south asian papers and the british press use -- seriously, if you must pick flaws with a newspaper there have to be grounds better than this --

as for: `I hope those are unintentional typos and are not reflective of the educational qualifications of the Dawn journalists, who write the stories.` -- i dont know ferozk, readers are a better judge i suppose -- but tell me, if while lecturing in class you make a slip of the tongue or an error which is later corrected by one of your students, is that a reflection of your educational qualification (or lack thereof)?

ferozk -- plz -- its spelled haagen dazs -- not what you wrote -- typos happen in newspapers all over the world tho i agree that of late they seem to be happening much more in dawn -- thats reflective not of educational qualifications but of the declining standard of education in pakistan -- at this stage its difficult, i suppose, for them, to unlearn so much -- our sub-editors mostly come from local universities -- and the editor or other senior editors cannot sub and proof every story that goes in -- personal beliefs apart, the daily times sometimes tends to follow a very narrow agenda, of its editor and publisher -- but yes its prob a better subbed paper --

``gratitude owed to the establishment`` -- well what can i say feroz -- you are the first reader i have had in my career who has drawn this inference from what i have written -- you live in lahore right, ask i a rahman (if he remembers me) or lahori (the guy who writes the column for dawn and is our resident editor there) how pro-establishment i am -- strange you should bring the teacher thing up -- speaking from personal experience?

re: inquilaabi # 147

No, you are right. That is not the point.

Incidently, I will have to re-check the spelling. I might be wrong, but I think that they do make it in Pakistan, because the prices have really dropped and it is alot cheaper than what it was used to cost.

Ciao

The correct spelling is actually Haagen Dazs. Unless they spell it differently in Pakistan and it isn`t really Haagen Dazs.

But that`s hardly the point, is it?

re: Omar R. Quraishi

Since we are the topic of words and their exact nature of words, the correct spelling is Hagaan Daz. :)

I always enjoy my Hagaan Daz. It is pure indulgence. Still nothing compares to a slow burning Montecristo curling blue wisps of smoke upwards.

Omar, I am not holding you responsible for the editorial since, unless you inform me, I do not think that you speak for the Dawn group of newspapers. I was holding you accountable to your posts and asking, where in your posts did you mention that statement.

Omar, I still stand by my statement. Your style of posts suggests one of those Pink Floydian teachers from The Wall lecturing a wayward pupil and reminding him of the gratitude owned to the establishment. Were you ever a teacher once? Your style certainly hints towards a past teaching career or a teaching experience.

Instead, I wish ask you on the matter of typos, what do you plan to do about the typos, which are so common in Dawn? I saw a heading on the by-elections in Karachi, where the ``by-elections`` was spelled as ``bye-elections``. I hope Dawn was not suggesting a farewell to the elections! I have seen the word ``corps commander`` spelled as ``core commander``. I have also spotted the word ``whether`` spelled as ``weather`` in Dawn.

In fact, I encourage my students to read Dawn to improve their spelling skills by spotting the spelling mistakes. I hope those are unintentional typos and are not reflective of the educational qualifications of the Dawn journalists, who write the stories. Even if they do write such sub-standard English, how does it get past the editors at Dawn?

Personally, I find the editorials in The Daily Times much better.

Ciao

ok ras -- sure -- it was reviewed here too this past winter when it was premiered in pakistan during the karafilm festival -- btw i think khalid hasan, the daily times` correspondent in washington, mentioned one your reviews at length in one of his columns recently -- btw is the rest of your post about `honesty AND determination` aimed towards me specificially or a general remark?

dost-mittar at 139:

It is not what I wrote, but what is reality.

It would have been among State, Judiciary and Mian family, if the last one mentioned had not requested Saudi friends to intervene. The Clan let our common friends do the arbitration.

This may seem wrong to many, but that is how it stands - it is amongst State, Saudi friends and Mian clan now.

Pakistan will move on - there is a very high propability that we will have Musharraf as non-uniformed President of the country before the year ends, Chairman of NSC and President of PML Q with Jamali as his PM and Ch Shujaat Hussain as general Secretary of PML Q. We will have early elections. PML Q and its allies will sweep polls in Punjab and Sindh and will have fair representation in the NWFP and Balochistan. Of course, all of this is if the Supreme Being wills :-)

As for the cowardly clan - woh ker lain jow ker saktay hain. Kabhi kabhi aik ghaltee bhari parr jaati hay.

dost mitter 138,

It is sad to see that your trip to pakistan has made you blind to pak reality. You did not even care to think about the judicial system in pakistan.
A few months ago, there was a ganf rape as punishment, there was global hue and cry. Mushy intervened, swftly three men were sentenced to death. No one knows whether it was carried out or not. What happened to the hoodood laws that needed male witnesses to rape, nothing matters because mushy wanted to contain the publicity.
The same is true for khan the bomb peedler.
Pakistan is anon viable state, there are no laws. None of the heavy questions you asked about the contract, does it matter in a country where the law says that murder is not a crime against the state non implementation of the lasws is better for pakistanis, similar to education where the illiterate are more knowledgeable.

ferozk -- if you didnt get that from the editorial then what can i say -- forget the posts -- since i am being held accountable for my editorial let me quote from it, here is the relevant passages

``Every time a bombing takes place and innocent lives are lost, every senior government functionary expresses his resolve to track down the killers and bring them to justice and promises that elements behind such acts will be rooted out. And then all is forgotten about promised preventive and punitive action until another bomb blast occurs or another spree of religious or sectarian violence takes place. Karachi is dotted with security posts and barriers and citizens going on their daily business are checked and harassed, and yet the trouble-makers appear to enjoy the freedom of the city and strike at will. This kind of approach is inherently flawed and will never lead to a reduction in terrorism because those who carry out such acts will always be a step ahead of the government and its preventive and control agencies. Ministers, or their masters, who keep on telling the public that the law and order situation in the country is under control or that extremism is being dealt with effectively should instead spend their time formulating strategies that succeed in preventing acts of terrorism. To be sure, this is not an easy task, especially when one does not fully understand the forces at work behind suicide bombings and other acts of terrorism, but how many attacks must take place for the government to realize that something is missing in its anti-terrorism strategy? One can understand that once, or perhaps twice, a terrorist attack catches the law enforcement agencies off guard, but for them to be caught unawares most of the time is inexcusable and, when one looks at the cost of such inaction, criminal.

Time and again, the president has reiterated that the government is committed to stamping out religious militancy, extremism and bigotry and wants to eliminate the scourge of sectarianism from Pakistani society. Such words need to be backed up with actions. Administrative measures, mostly taken only after some bombs have exploded and lives lost, are not enough. The government also needs to do something about the nurseries - the madressahs - some of which breed bigotry, intolerance and hatred for those belonging to other faiths and sects and to come down harshly on mosque imams openly preaching sectarian hatred and militancy. In the longer-term, that is the only way sectarianism and intolerance in society can be curbed and violent acts of terrorism curtailed. It should also be realized that religious intolerance cannot be entirely separated from general intolerance, and that ultimately we have to cut ourselves away from the policies nurtured over the decades that have created our present bigoted state of mind. Meanwhile, although the feelings of anger and frustration generated by the Friday tragedy are understandable, the problem will not go away by random violence on the streets, and everyone should act with restraint. ``

If this is not holding the govt, and society, accountable then i wonder what is


words have to be exact on chowk -- errr.... ok ferozk -- i thought that was the case in general with language esp. when communicating -- by the way ever heard of typos? -- perhaps you did misunderstand my `verbal ramblings` (how can they be verbal i wonder since chowk is not an oral medium but in any case) i implied no such thing no said it, in any case if you didnt get that in the editorial then i suppose i need to say that it is

as for you not being able to decipher my posts feroz, actually i wrote them in quite a sane and peaceful state of mind, its another thing, i suppose, that you didnt understand them -- like i had said earlier in one of my `verbal ramblings` (prob one of the many which you didnt comprehend) that i dont expect you to necessarily understand what i said to you in my posts --

btw enjoy the haagen dazs :)

Omar,

I am sending you an email tonight on ``Khamosh Pani`` the movie.

To confront intolerance in Pakistan, one needs both honesty AND determination.

Religion has been used as a tool by all kinds of Fascist elements in Pakistan.

It is time to confront them openly or they will destroy that country,

(No Ifs ands or buts).

Ras

re`` Omar R. Quraishi # 105

You said, and I quote: ``I SAID THE EDITORIAL WAS IN FACT HOLDING THE GOVT. ACCOUNTABLE``.

Omar, I can find no mention of you having said this statement. The editorial might might have suggested the above mentioned quote, but you never said it. I only read this in post # 105, which was a reply to my post # 95. If you have clearly said this, please cut and paste it in your reply and reference it to your previvous post. When you claimed ``I said...``, please show me, where you have said this in your posts.

Omar, Chowk is medium of expression, where words have to be exact otherwise the vague nature of posts/replies/comments creates a sense of misunderstanding. In all honesty, having read your many posts to me, you do seem to have written them in an agiated of mind, so it is diffcult to decipher, what you really meant.

I accept the fact that I might have misunderstood your verbal ramblings, so to clarify any misunderstandings, did you really say it or did you imply it?

Ciao

ahmadzai:
``There is only one way available to Mian Sahiban to return to Pakistan. Request the Saudis to intervene again. They can take a plea that 3 years ago the circumstances were different and now they would like to be part of the democratic set up of Pakistan again, serve the people, serve Islam, etc. I guarantee 100% that Saudis will listen and try to do everything to get them back. This is the only way. Other than that, they can wait for 6 more years.``

Please rethink what you wrote. You are surrendering the sovereign rights of GOP to a foreign family by accepting their arbitration between the state and its citizens. While I have not seen the text of the agreement between the two parties, the only way out should have been to let Shabaz in and let the Pakistani courts decide what to do with him in light of the agreement entered, including a ruling by the court on the validity of the agreement itself. Any other course would reduce the state to the level of a jirga where the disputing parties let the sardar of another jirga decide their dispute.

Has anyone seen the text of the agreement of sharifs with the Pakistan govt. Who signed this agreement? nawaz? shabash? the entire family? If only one person signed, did he have the power of attorney to sign on behalf of the others? Is this agreement enforceable in a court of law? What were to be the consequences of anyone of them breaking the agreement, presuming this is what Shabaz did? Did the agreement call for his deportation or prosecution in such a situation?

veeresh ji #121 -- naheen veeresh ji -- yeh sirif aap ka forte hai -- your exclusive domain

tahmed sahib -- since temporal sahib responded he prob must be -- actually i was told by one interactor a while back that he was one of the editors --

jay -- im not the `editor` of dawn

ijaz sahib -- im surprised that you should bring your ilog here -- i read it and responded to what you wrote on my ilog -- i suppose i will have to reproduce that here now because you leave me no c hoice -- so here goes --

``this is for ijaz gul -- since he chooses to mention me on his ilog, i suppose this is the only way that he can be responded to -- ijaz sahib plz get your facts right -- mansur ijaz has never written for dawn -- and no one is picking on nooralain, if she chooses to make statements condemning the rest of us, well she has to expect some kind of response -- and ijaz sahib, trust me working at dawn is not a cut and paste job -- ever heard of plagiarism? -- as for me defending the editorial -- well if my organization is being attacked then i should have the guts and sense to defend it -- ijaz sahib, may i also remind you that when the editorial was submitted i explicitly told the chowk editors to attach no byline but they did`` --

and here is what you wrote on May 11 ijaz sahib:

``Banning Panchyats DAWN

In a state where corruption is rampant whenever there is a link between the civil society and state, where the law enforcement agencies and judiciary are the most corrupt and where young boys in jail die as old men with no dispensation of justice, Omar wants the panchyats to be made unlawful. Had he been a village folk, he would have known the positive contributions of this time tested system.

I think that before rejecting a system, we ought to first deliberate an alternative.


May 11, 2004

Dawn

If Omar has been working for the Dawn group for the past ten years then he ought to know that he wrote a series of artiucles on lobbyists in USA alongwith Shaheen sehbai in 1999-2000 for Herald of Dawn group.

``You have indeed attempted to take Chowk by storm. I suggest, you first establish yourself as a valued member of the community like Firzouk, Dost Mitter, Veerish, Noor, Nazar et al. Don`t get sentimental. Life is too short to loose nerves.
Cheerios ``


And here is my response to what you wrote on my ilog:

``May 12, 2004

ijaz gul sahib, there is a big difference between writing for dawn and herald -- one is a daily paper and one is a monthly -- both have entirely different editorial staff headed by their respective editors -- by your logic writing in mag is the same as writing in jang -- i hope you can understand that it is not -- mansur ijaz must have written that piece for herald with mr sehbai but he has not written for the Dawn newspaper -- i hope this is clear enough -- as for `storming` chowk -- trust me ijaz sahib i have better things to do than that, other than my full time job -- `storming` chowk i will leave to the people whom you have mentioned in your ilog``


May 12, 2004

and by the way i have had to `storm chowk` mostly to respond to half-baked assertions, insinuations and prejudgments about me, my work and the place i live at -- ijaz sahib, by the way, dont mistake my sarcasm for sentimentality

May 12, 2004

``haha ijaz sahib -- aap ka bhi kya logic hai -- (i have to respond to you here because you have begun by passing comments on me in your ilog) -- yes panhcayats do sometimes provide quick and speedy justice (which the editorial did recognize) but recent experience in pakistan has show, ijaz sahib, that this quick and speedy `justice` is quite discriminatory towards (a) poor families and (b) particularly against women -- had you known the case on which this editorial was based you probably would also say that some kind of legal sanction needs to be in place -- for the record ijaz sahib, two young girls were ordered raped by a panchayat near Multan, because one male member of their family had allegedly dishonoured a girl from another clan -- one doesnt have to be a `village folk` to know that this kind of `justice` is something that we need to speak out against --``

Sadna:

Like I said in my last post that the ``Mian Bratheran left Pakistan on their own accord under a 10 years exile agreement brokered by Saudis at the request of Mian bratheraan themselves. ``

No one could have sent a Pakistani in exile unless s/he desired. As it is, there are criminal cases against Mian clan. Instead of facing the judiciary and opting for a possible jail term, which is what genuine politicians want - a jail term - so that their political careers blossom, Mian sahiban decided to request for exile in KSA. So a Pakistani never exiled Mian clan. The clan itself opted for a life of luxury instead of potential hardship of a prison.

(btw, reports suggest that the Mian clan is making heavy investments in Saudi Arabia. They have built factories there).

omar_r_quraishi #132
Foreign militants can stay, the agreement signed with THEM is for them to only `register`. This after they killed scores of Pakistani soldiers. No such agreement is available for politicians.

sadna -- thats a question that a spokesman for the state/govt would be in a better position to answer -- many pakistanis are prob wondering the same -- what ahmedzai has written is factually correct -- dont know whether such accords have any legal standing but apparently such an agreement was voluntarily signed by the sharifs renouncing their right to stay in the country for ten years -- as a condition for leaving pakistan --

temporal thanks for pointing those guidelines out -- in my opinion several of your posting/interacting guidelines seem to be routinely violated esp these ones
* Please refrain from personal attacks on writers and respondents
* Please refrain from frivolous statements that are inflammatory towards any race, nationality, ethnicity or religion

i think most people on this site would agree that to be the case judged by the frequency with which such posts appear on most of the boards -- temporal i am not asking or suggesting that anyone be banished -- but what use are editorial guidelines if they are routintely violated and if interactors are allowed to get away with them a lot of the time -- surely you have to balance the right to express one`s views with the right of others to not be offended or personally attacked when they interact here -- i suppose the fact that the editors are part time itself explains the somewhat topsy turvy nature of this website -- thanks anyway -- i actually posted the guidelines here because in the past when i have emailed queries to the editors they have often not been responded to --

jang #130
You are talking of rights of a citizen while living in his country. I am talking of the right of a citizen to live in his country.

#129 by sadna

Are you being facetious? Sharif is just one person, no biggy. An entire population (ahmedis) have been denied full citizenship for a long time (i.e. ahmadi cannot be a prez etc).

ahmedzai #127
I will bet that any such agreement will be found to be unconstitutional, if it was brought to public light. In modern times, even murderers, criminals and thiefs cannot be stripped of their fundamental right to live in the country of their citizenship.

So who are the editors and organizers/managers of Chowk?

Sadna at # 125:

Your question is directed at Omar and he will definitely reply, but let me also take the liberty of responding to it briefly.

``One has to wonder what sort of democracy Gen. Musharraf is claiming to have established when it cannot accomodate a leader with largish mass base. ``

The largish mass base was only able to win 3% of the votes in last elections

``And how the heck does a state manage to deport its own citizens? ``

Under an agreement between the deported and the deportee.

Being from a political family, let me assure you that Mian Bratheran left Pakistan on their own accord under a 10 years exile agreement brokered by Saudis at the request of Mian bratheraan themselves. Please recall that Saudis have friends both with Mian Sahibaan and the present setup.

Mian Shahbaz Shareef went to the UK for medical treatment and was suppose to have gone back to the KSA after expiry of his visa. He decided to ripple the waters a bit by transiting in Pakistan. He knew very well that under the agreement, he cannot set a foot outside of the airport. However, he cleverly managed to run 7 days publicity campaign through our electronic media, which has been given a free hand under the present government.

There is only one way available to Mian Sahiban to return to Pakistan. Request the Saudis to intervene again. They can take a plea that 3 years ago the circumstances were different and now they would like to be part of the democratic set up of Pakistan again, serve the people, serve Islam, etc. I guarantee 100% that Saudis will listen and try to do everything to get them back. This is the only way. Other than that, they can wait for 6 more years.

since something going on about newspapers here:

i read somewhere on the net (dont have the reference) that the total circulation of english newspapers in pakistan is less than the circulation of english papers in delhi. how true is this??

omar_r_quraishi #104
One has to wonder what sort of democracy Gen. Musharraf is claiming to have established when it cannot accomodate a leader with largish mass base.

And how the heck does a state manage to deport its own citizens?

ps:

...some additional and personal comments if i may:

...chowk editors are all volunteers...they have young families, full time jobs and chowk is a labour of love where they volunteer an inordinate number of hours...despite that...understandably they cannot monitor every interact here or on the unlugged...that is why they appreciate everyone`s help in adhereing to the guidelines... banishing or disbarring is done rarely and with utmost reluctance

omar:

...rec`d your email and was going to respond by email...but since you have reproduced it here...i think a reply here would be beneficial....see the Detailed InterAct Guidelines above the submission box?...that should answer your queries...

The InterAct! space is provided to post replies to a published article. Interaction on Chowk is a privilege and a responsibility. Article replies are a permanent part of Chowk. The overall appeal of Chowk`s content depends in large measure on the appeal and versatility of the discussions in the Interaction space. Please keep your interaction relevant to the article and its primary theme. Chowk encourages and appreciates critique and its defining value is freedom of expression.

In order to protect this freedom for all Chowkwalas, it is necessary to adhere to the rules of good conduct as spelled out below.

Please refrain from abusive language and swear words
Please refrain from personal attacks on writers and respondents
Please refrain from frivolous statements that are inflammatory towards any race, nationality, ethnicity or religion
Please refrain from abusing the interaction spaces with plugs and unsolicited publicity for other websites and on-line and off-line services

We understand that these rules can be difficult to follow when you have a strong opinion about an issue, or when another Interactor`s viewpoints frustrate you. Please remember that the other Interactor is a person with a valid opinion, which you can probably change with reason and patience but abuse will not help your cause. Interactors are rated at Chowk, so please remember that the depth of your argument will earn the respect of other Chowkwalas, rather than aggression.

Chowk reserves the right to remove responses that do not conform to the basic guidelines.

veeresh

did you have a sex-change operation during your recent visit to Pakistan or did you visit Peshawar. What the hell is with this ``Ji`` business. Its annoying.

Omar # 116 - and I hope you do not assume that I am Temporal Bhai`s ADC, though that is not a bad idea either.

From the ``Interact`` guidelines at The Chowk, to which, inspite of having differences of opinions with you, I think many welcome your presence. And please do not view this as patronising, either, but the fact that you arrive with your real name is reason enough to welcome you.

````The InterAct! space is provided to post replies to a published article. Interaction on Chowk is a privilege and a responsibility. Article replies are a permanent part of Chowk. The overall appeal of Chowk`s content depends in large measure on the appeal and versatility of the discussions in the Interaction space. Please keep your interaction relevant to the article and its primary theme. Chowk encourages and appreciates critique and its defining value is freedom of expression.

In order to protect this freedom for all Chowkwalas, it is necessary to adhere to the rules of good conduct as spelled out below.

Please refrain from abusive language and swear words
Please refrain from personal attacks on writers and respondents
Please refrain from frivolous statements that are inflammatory towards any race, nationality, ethnicity or religion
Please refrain from abusing the interaction spaces with plugs and unsolicited publicity for other websites and on-line and off-line services
We understand that these rules can be difficult to follow when you have a strong opinion about an issue, or when another Interactor`s viewpoints frustrate you. Please remember that the other Interactor is a person with a valid opinion, which you can probably change with reason and patience but abuse will not help your cause. Interactors are rated at Chowk, so please remember that the depth of your argument will earn the respect of other Chowkwalas, rather than aggression.

Chowk reserves the right to remove responses that do not conform to the basic guidelines.````

As for your query, I, as just another Chowkie, feel that this website is as much yours as it is anybody else`s.

Vaise, if you don`t mind my saying so ji, is this business of acting and writing basis ``assumptions`` your personal forte or is it policy at Dawn? Just asking.

stuka #109 You should know that Romair is the official newspaper reader of Gen. Musharaff. He can speed read at the rate of 6,300 NPH (Newspapers Per Hour), which is over 9 times the speed of sound. He can speed write at a similar dizzying speed as well. So it takes him about 1 hour every day to read his newspapers and write to chowk as well. And you thought he was just your ordinary run-of-the-mill field marshall!

oq #116 ``i assume he is one of the editors of this site ``

I hope you dont make up similar assumptions when writing your dawn articles.

jay #115 I see you managed to escape from the mental asylum again.

stuka #109: ``Jeez!! What kinda job do u have? ``

Good question :-). I can only provide the following answer: One`s work style changes quite a bit, when one starts running one`s own business. Something I didn`t realize earlier. Initially, you are doing everything, from cleaning the coffee pot to writing code, to get things going. After that, you really end up doing one thing: Establishing relationships with clients. Taking them out to lunch, breakfast and dinner, and talking about things they are interested in. Canada, I know about, because I am here, so I don`t read much on it. Pakistan, I read about because I want to set up an office there. However, many of the potential clients are Indian or American. So it is important to know what is going on there. If tomorrow some Indian guy starts talking to me about the impact of Chandrababu Naidu`s defeat on Hyderabad`s IT industry, even though I would have no idea what the real impact would be, I should still be able to throw some articles around that I read in Indian newspapers.......You would be surprised how impressed people are with that......

Finding the culprits,

It is remarkable that pakistanis from tahmed to temporal wants to find out who did the karachi bombing. This comes from the notion that there are good jihadis. If they turn out to be taliban jihadis, they need a lesson in geography, karachi is different from kandahar. If they turn out to be kashmir jijhadis, they have to send back to classes to identify the hindus, if they ar esectoral jihadis, well we have to think about it.
For the whole world, a suicide bomber is well defined, he is a jihadi, he is the product of the madrassa system he is the rpoduct of hatred and as a nation pakistan has to stp the jihadis.
Interestingly from the Omar the dawn editor to the educated tahmed, identifying the killer as a jihadi and moving against all forms of jihad is not good enough. For them there is the good jihad.

The notion of good jihad is so engrained in the psyche. Omar the dawn editor mentioned that kashmir killings are wire reports duly reproduced. No omar, there is a small editorial change, kashmir militants or terrorists are called freediom fighters by dawn. Omar the editor of dawn is unaware, he cannot understand the significance, he is a product of k for kafir education, no difference between a terrorist and freedomfighter as long as those killed are infidals.

this is an email i just sent to temporal sahib -- i assume he is one of the editors of this site -- here it is, i think it`s relevant enough to be posted on this board :


Dear Temporal Sahib (don`t know your real name),

I have one question to ask here. Very basic and very simple. What are your website`s policies regarding hate speech and personal slurs? Is there a written down policy agreed upon by all the editors? If so, could you email me a copy?


Regards,
Omar R. Quraishi
Assistant Editor
Dawn Group of Newspapers,
Haroon House,
Dr Ziauddin Ahmed Road,
Karachi, PAKISTAN
+92-21-5670001

This is what I wrote in my ilogs yesterday.
May 10, 2004

Hit Hard Look Wise

Thats what amatuer golfers and billiard players usually do. This is followed by a flexibility strain in the personality that can make switches whenever the going gets tough or the logic and reasoning get exhausted.

I have seen such authors at chowk of recent. Though Farrukh Khan stuck to his guns regarding the first part of his thesis, Omer Qureishi has been a disappointment. If the article he published was the view of the Dawn Establishment, then he had no business defending it. The Newspaper should have done it or sued him on the copy right.

No one more than the Dawn Group does lead articles on Pakistan, specially through the Herald.Issues of Sectarian Killings, Terrorism and Ethnicity have been their lead articles.Some of the lead writers like Mansur Ijaz and Shaheen Sehbai of SAT have been their prominent writers in the past. He has to just leaf through the archives of his organisation, available online to make 2+2=4 and also lay threadbare why such incidents happen.

This is the contrast between a research analyst and a cut and paste writer. Farrukh and Qureishi represent the two extremes.

Hit hard and look wise. Hum...
Then create a commotion and start rediculing everyone including the tender but brave hearted Noor.
Cheerios

romair # 80 -- and by the way interesting to note that ayaz amir was once a capt. of the pakistan army -- as incidentally were several other critics of the military such as ejaz haider, kamran shafi and (to an extent, as in critic not politically but socially yes) dr tariq rahman --

ralph what kind of life is he leading ? omar saeed sheikh -- well he is in prison ralph -- and i am not aware what kind of relationship he currently enjoys (if at all) with his previous handlers

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arjun #103:

nice deflection;)

i think you know it now that you stand exposed in front of any diligent observer!

good day!

dear veeresh sahib -- i couldnt be bothered how fed up or not fed up you are, whether till your nostrils, below them or slightly above them -- if you had closely read the article ITS ABOUT POLICY CHANGES AT PTV, NOT ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS ON THE STREET ON DELHI -- jesus , you dont seem to get that do you -- i couldnt be also bothered on your beliefs or otherwise on what costs in the pakistani newspapers should be -- i have been a full time journalists for almost a decade IN PAKISTAN and i think that means, in my opinion, that I have some kind of informed opinion, definitely more than you who sits in Delhi and seems to base his views of Pakistan on his recent foray to watch a match or some Pakistanis he meets -- the old Dawn office could be anything, veeresh sahib, it isnt the Dawn office or is it, which is what you said it was till I pointed out your inaccuracy -- people like you will believe what they want to believe (and by the way Romair, this isnt necessarily an Indian affliction, i see it happens to many non-Indians who interact too) -- veeresh sahib please get this -- i am not in disagreementw ith the fact that pakistani newspapers or magazines are much more expensive than their indian counterparts -- what i am against is you foisting your views on me, esp. since i work in the media IN PAKISTAN and think would know better than you (at least on this one) -- and trust me veeresh many pakistanis like me and others who i know, know that all indian streets are not what they see in the movies -- that, veeresh sahib, is yet more proof of the thoroughly patronizing attitude you have towards pakistan and it comes across in your arguments/posts here -- perhaps the pakistanis you met had this view
veeresh sahib `till you are satisfied` -- u sound like a dictatorial pita there veeresh sahib -- and what does `go back and be something` mean exactly` -- hahahha



-- romair -- by the way to add further in response to what you wrote i think an response needs to be responded to, esp. if its a thinly-veiled personal attack --

Romair:

``I read a good ten newspapers a day (four Pakistani, three Indian and three American), on a regular basis, so I have a good idea of what I am talking about. ``

Jeez!! What kinda job do u have?

My Dear Shri Omar ji . . . Dawn`s old Delhi office in Daryaganj is now the ``Times School of Marketing``, and the archives there wrt Dawn and its owners are very very illuminating.

Like a politician or entertainment person, an editor or a journalist. . . the moment you put your name to something, you stand in the public domain, answerable by position. Be glad you are not in the West, where the rest of your family as well as personal history is placed there too. So, your article, my questions, your answers, my rejoinders . . . till I am satisfied. Otherwise please go back and be something else.

Newspapers in Pakistan and their costings have nothing to do with advertising. I can prove it to you that even if you have `nil` advertising, your newspaper should not cost more than 6 Pakistan rupees on the pavement. Hawker commissions notwithstanding. Likewise your magazines, they need not cost more than 12-15 Pakistan rupees on pavement.

The complete web-war between you and me started because I am fed up till here, a spot just below my nostrils, with all this Bollywood based reportage by Pakistani media on matters Indian (when they aren`t talking about freedom fighters and grenade attacks in kashmir, ofcourse). When I have been through a lifetime of meeting Pakistanis and explaining to them that Indian streets are not what you see in movies, and get disbelieving looks in return, then you will understand why I take umbrage on your reportage about U M and glycerine at the Wagah/Attari border.

And since you mention my trip report on Pakistan, currently up and running at chowk as well as outlook and soon in a variety of vernacular media in India . . . can you show me ONE realistic trip report on India by a Pakistani mediaperson or otherwise? Oh yeah, visa wails, but what prevented any of you from getting on a bus or a train?

When we talk about truth in journalism, that is where it starts, and that is my objection to your portrayal in the PTV based U Matondkar article/editorial.

+++

sadna, what you said about the intelligence agencies was never in doubt

feroz, your right -- im not interested -- but trust me im not smarting -- this for me a professional hazard -- talking to people who violently disagree with me -- we do it at work quite a lot trying to tell people why their articles or letters cant be printed -- of course we give them cogent reasons but they sometimes dont understand -- and by the way even you misunderstood my accountable remark -- i did not say that the govt should hold the people or anyone accountable -- I SAID THE EDITORIAL WAS IN FACT HOLDING THE GOVT. ACCOUNTABLE -- there, hope that is clear and unambiguous enough ... phew-- and again feroz need i tell you how many minds our editorials/articles have influenced -- dont worry im not going to ask you to list before us how many young minds at aitchison you have influenced -- you again misquuote me forez, as a journalist i do not attend rallies by political parties (in fact should not, though might have covered them) -- i was talking about ones for press freedom, when journalists or the media was under threat or generally speaking -- feroz plz could you give up this habit of presuming too much

bongdongs -- last stories in dawn came on the okara military farms issue -- this year several came on the textbooks revision issue -- and a month or so ago there was one about how pia had gone ahead and bought its new planes defying the wishes of the finance ministry --

ralph -- the media was initially allowed to cover the trial but then it was shifted to the jail premises after which the media was disallowed --

bongdongs your right about self censorship, and there is a degree of self censorship everywhere, no better example than in the US -- post 71 tries to tell the arm chair philosophers on this website that being a journalist can be quite a hazardous job in a country like pakistan --

pmishra2 -- ``freedom struggle in karachi`` hahah thats a good one -- if you are referring to the MQM then pmishra ji the MQM is now in power in sindh - i doubt it very much that they would do this and even if they did it wouldnt be for a `freedom struggle` -- what hindu heriage have i dragged in ??? hahha by calling you shri ? isnt that mister in hindi ? so if you call me omar sahib you are dragging in my `muslim` heritage

veeresh ji -- if a journalist writes a piece on doordarshan and says that a recent programme on doordarshan might represent a change in state policy then would you assume that the journalist agrees with the propaganda that doordarshan dishes out -- yes my article (not editorial on urmila`s trip) did have this show on ptv in mind but how in the world does that mean that i condone the crap ptv dishes out -- if you had read the article more closely, you would have seen that it doesnt -- and by the way, what aspersions have i cast on this living outside pakistan -- if anyone who does that with his patronizing attitude it is probably you -- in any case veeresh ji, this whole interaction with you was started by you making all kinds of insinuations about others -- and when the other person began to respond in kind you couldnt handle it

---

and plz stop these semantic somersaults of qualitative and quantitative on pakistani newspapers costs -- apart from quoting some friend of yours at dawn`s ``delhi office` (which you still quote despite being told that Dawn moved from Delhi iin 1947), what other quantitative proofs have you given -- i told you it is partly because of advertising that indian papers cost so less and because in pakistan the hawker takes a 30 per cent commission -- and you call these `qualitative` assertions-- aahh the personal bit -- so the truth has come out -- as you seem to admit yourself -- dear veeresh sahib did you put your byline on the outlook india article because you wrote the article and expected and wanted reasoned and constructive feedback or because you wanted personal attacks -- my or anyone else`s byline being there doesnt mean that i should be attacked personally -- reasoned logical (or even emotional) argument is fine as long as it is on the content -- so now you tell me that i should expect interactors to get personal with a writer because that writer`s byline happens to be on the article posted ?
plz tell this to your editor at outlook india and see what he tells you

romair -- why thank you-- since support or approval is so rare on this site it does feel heartening -- i nbever said that dawn is a brilliant paper but its certainly not as bad as some make it out to be -- and why just analyze dawn, why not analyze the indian express, the times of india and while at it pass slanderous remarks against their editors and writers --
btw dont worry romair sahib i dont mind the interaction -- its quite laughable at times and is another way for me to interact

---

an editorial writer`s job can be quite solitary sometimes as opposed to a reporters -- i know most people here will go on and on -- besides , im sure sooner or later i will switch off interacting here --

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arjun:


you ( #101) just confirmed something i had suspicions about;)

have a good day, sir!

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omar_r_quraishi #75
If you take even a subset of recent events - suicide bombing to sabotage a 3-hr concert by an Indian singer, in one place officialdom being tolerant of absconding armed militants taking their sweet time to `register`, while in another place officialdom arresting people because a provincial politician is returning, sectarian terrorists continuing to come out of the woodwork -- imho, it looks a lot like a paranoid intelligence agency (or two) is in charge, which is desperately trying to prevent erosion of ideological frontiers and/or institutional interests.

#95 by ferozk

“what does that make your opinion? I would like to think that it makes your opinion an elitist”

Here is the problem that I was alluding to in my previous post. I guess, I didn’t do a good job.
Pakistan just does not have two opinions -elitist and the middleclass- there is a third opinion and that is the opinion of the majority of Pakistan.

If I take cudgels with the middleclass ideologies, I am not automatically an elitist. When you confine the debate to the Middleclass and the elitist, you are showing your ignorance and disdain for the people, the real people. In my post, I tried to point out that one needs to make a connection with the common person and once you make that connection you will have the ability to have an objective view of the situation in Pakistan.

You don’t have to be a communist or a leftist to make that connection. ZAB in Pakistan did that and now BB is doing it. NS is doing it and to a certain extent some rightwing parties are doing that.

About history:
History in Pakistan is the most distorted subject and there is not much space between our opinions about it. Agreed, it is being distorted-but you don’t have to accept the distorted version. May be you need to sanitize it based on your knowledge and understanding.

“it seems that you have an expectation about Pakistan also”

Yes. I do! And message was to lower your expectations and match that with the expectation common folks’ have. When I referred to Islamic vision what I meant was that there is no need for some lofty ideals in pursuit of Jannat but some down to earth expectations would be a whole lot easier to reconcile with.

“Please do not compare Pakistan with Germany or any other nation.”
The comparison was to illustrate a point and let me further elaborate it. Countries go thru turmoil but people also make come backs. The illustrations were to just point out that Pakistan has not gone thru the kind of turmoil that some in the world have seen. In fact, the current strife in Pakistan is nowhere near that. Now I am not belittling any thing. I have full sympathy with victims but I wanna keep my perspective too.

“Pakistan`s problems are to be solved within a Pakistani experience”

This again is a myopic view. What is the Pakistani experience may I ask? Pakistan is part of this world and if people ask for democracy they are not asking for some Pakistani experience. They are asking for some thing that has been tested elsewhere. A “Pakistani Experience” is an army solution. The Pak Army never forgets to repeat Pakistani type of democracy and words to that nature.
If people are asking for secular Pakistan or a Pakistan with a human face, people are asking for things that have universal experience. It is important to separate the reality from the make believe world that is made popular by the Pak Army and its propaganda machine.

#90
I seem to have put my foot in my mouth. The ``Herald`` magazine is published by the Dawn group.

thank you Sir veeru!....will check here of comparative pak prices.

comments welcome re: freedom of press on the followinf news item

from the nation today:

ARY forced to cancel Shahbaz interview

From Our Special Correspondent
LONDON—The PML (N) President Mian Shahbaz Sharif’s interview was cancelled Sunday due to govt pressure minutes before it was to be broadcast by the ARY Digital television channel, its management said. The interview was to be conducted by Dr Shahid Masud.
According to the ARY Digital Channel’s management, they were threatened by the personnel of various agencies that their Karachi office would be closed down and their staff would also be picked up and shifted to unknown place if they did not cancel the interview.
“There will be no guarantee of the safety of the staff”, the management of the television quoted officials of the agencies as having told them.

Mian Shahbaz Sharif, while commenting on the situation, said that he will come to Pakistan according to his schedule. “The government cannot stop me from coming back”, he said, adding that the rulers “had lost their senses.”

He said the interview was cancelled at the behest of President Pervez Musharraf and the ban on government advertisements to certain newspapers speaks volumes for the freedom of the Press in Pakistan.

While talking to his spokesman Farrukh Shah on telephone, Mian Shahbaz Sharif said that he will come back on May 11. “Pakistan is my country and place of birth. I will live or die for my homeland”, Mian Shahbaz Sharif said, adding that the service to the country was his motto.

“My heart beats for the Pakistanis and no one can deprive me of my basic right of returning to my beloved country”, Mian Shahbaz Sharif said.

The spokesman, quoting Mian Shahbaz Sharif, said that the armed personnel of various agencies stormed into the Karachi residence of Haji Salman Iqbal — the owner of the ARY Digital television channel — and threatened him of dire consequences if the interview was broadcast.

“The business (of television channel) will be no more there and his life (of Haji Salman Iqbal) will be under threat”, the agencies personnel told the ARY Digital Channel, according to Shahbaz Sharif as quoted by the spokesman.

re: HP # 62

Interesting comments.

To answer a few points, which you have made. Respect for a people`s history depends on whether they have a history. In Pakistan`s case, history is a very abused term and it can mean anything. Pakistan`s real history is never taught to its pupils and the one, which is taught in schools, is a politically twisted web of lies and hatred. Consequently, which history of Pakistan, am I supposed to respect?

Regardless of your social class complexes, nations need a direction and they are expectations associated with nations and without any expectations to be aspired, nations remain bogged down in the mire. When Pakistan was created, there was an expection and from the burning nature of your response, it seems that you have an expectation about Pakistan also, otherwise my words would have not caused you such a bitter distaste. If that is the case, are you not also suffering from the ``lower middle class mentality``, which you hold responsible for Pakistan`s ills?

Please do not compare Pakistan with Germany or any other nation. Pakistan`s problems are to be solved within a Pakistani experience and not with an Algerian experience and Pakistan does not need to experience a Pol Pot to appreciate the depravity of its situation. Granted those nations suffered, but does their sufferings make a difference to the Pakistani suffering? A dying person does not care that others have died, because he only cares that he is dying.

One last thought. If you have such a lowly opinion on the lower middle class mentality, what does that make your opinion? I would like to think that it makes your opinion an elitist opinion.

Ciao

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Romair

I am not familiar with Naqshbandis view on Shias, however, I agree with his views on Ahmadis, that they are non-Muslims. I do not know about his views on treating Ahmadis though.

Personally, I think Ahmadis should be given constitutional parity with Muslim subjects along with an autonomous legislature like other non-Muslim subjects of state. This fine tradition was established by Holy Prophet (pbuh) himself through a documented constitution in Medinah. Shias, however, are absolute Muslims. There is no difference between us and them.

Romair sirji, what is with this Haagen Daaz business anyway?

Please try our very own Amul Dairy and also sister concern Mother Dairy icecreams, as well as Nirulas and Vadilal, from the co-op sectors in India. Not only are they good, but they have managed to give Kwality Walls (Hindustan Levers), Baskin Robbins and others a run. Nestle has not dared to sell ice-creams in India. Haagen Daaz hides in some corner, served at upmarket places for brand building.

So, here is another business plan: ice cream from India.

Though frankly, I would go for the ice cream I had at Raha/Rawalpindi anyday. What milk, boss!

(How many Pakistanis here have eaten ice cream at Rahat in Rawalpindi, may I ask ji?)