India Votes - and How!

Ahmed Bilal,
Now you mention two issues.
a)Image of India in world media-
Well,Lets see what can be a more objective statistic. A state that has 82% of a majority, some news of communal malfunctions are sure to come through. And thats what makes news.Saying that I celebrate Eid and Christmas would absolutely not make news, would it? I know it would sound cliched, but I do.And so do all the stauch BJP supporters, the so called exreme rightists. I come from a caste, kayastha, who are called half muslims, in jest.My grandfather arranged tuitions for Arabic and Persian for me in my summer vacations.It is another matter that I somehow dodged the class after two weeks and my retention is negligible now. But thats my story .Its hardly something worth getting reported by world media., is it? Lets talk about something more objective. Talk about cinema and cricket,which would really indicate popular view point, wouldn`t it?.Do u think we really care whether our players and cinema stars are Hindu /Muslim? Do u think it affects their popularity in anyway? Look at them and ask yourself. Secularism is built into our psyches. How could you ignore such indiactors and cite some reports from world media? Of course, the picture is not all hunky dory.We have our own problems and hiccups; we have our share of cynics and suspicions and fears. A beautiful account is presented by Rahi Masoom Raza in ``Topi Shukla``.Try to get hold of that book and read it.
b) Laws that favour one community/other community
Now, secularism is a little bit different from atheism where the state has no religion.This is actually the western concept of secularism. The Gandhian concept is promoting each religion equally. So the Hindus have HUF, muslims have Shariat and so on. If the aforesaid law deals with conjugal rights and matters of family, the personal laws are given priority. I am not saying that this is correct, I am only saying that this is how secularism is defined in India.The strong majority Rajiv Gandhi government had the chance to take a step towards
going for a Common Civil Code in the Shah Bano Case, but chose not to.But thats another debate.

Ref dost-mittar #450

[Forex reserves are primarily a function of the attractiveness of a country`s currency; it could mean that the currency is undervalued for the terms of trade, or expected to be revalued, or yields higher interest rates than available elsewhere, or that preferential treatment is given to forex inflows, such as no tax on NRI deposits. As a matter of fact, I would hope that forex reserves do not rise any further; that the Indian corporations use these reserves to acquire attractive companies abroad to seek a global presence or to import the latest machinery and technology to increase their productivity and international competitiveness. This is what I would look for rather than a mindless climbing of the forex reserves.]

If you have forex reserves, you don`t have to go hat in hand (or, in the Indian context, begging bowl in hand) for aid.

Would you prefer the times of Congress mis-rule when India had forex reserves to cover 3 weeks` worth of imports?

With forex reserves of $119 billion, India could afford to BUY Israeli AWACS, Russian aircraft carrier, British jet trainers, and any weaponry we want.

India can import high-tech goods because in the depressed world market we are able to pay cold hard cash.

Would you prefer that India go about looking for aid from donor countries?

Should there be a food shortage, we can afford to BUY the grains we need. Would you rather India went to the US and asked for food aid?

If the forex reserves do not rise any further, it would be proof that Nehruvian socialism and Communist ideology have triumphed over sound economic policy.

Is China wrong to have $380 billion in forex reserves?

Or is the Indian model going to be different where we will all be equally poor and can jointly hang down our heads in shame when the next drought hits?

Ref AhmadBilal #452

[You have raised some very valid points. Since I don’t know much about the internal politics of India, I can’t comment on strength of the opposition to secularism in India. But from what reaches the world through media, it appears that they are in considerable numbers. Another thing is Indian law. Some of your laws seem to be based on religious reasons. For example, some of your states prohibit cow slaughter and some states prohibit conversion from one religion to another. And from what I understand, there are also certain laws which give certain concessions to minorities based on their religious values. These laws don’t necessarily exploit people and I understand that they could be necessary due to composition of Indian society. But they do negate the basic idea of secularism because a secular state (in principle) shouldn’t have laws based on religious reasons.]

Let us start in India by prohibiting polygamy, divorce through `talaq`, marriage of Muslim children to Arab sheiks for money, subsidy for the Haj pilgrimage and supporting the right to convert FROM Islam and the right to alimony after divorce.

Let us see how much you then b!tch about the anti-Islamic nature of India.

Ref AhmadBilal #452

Of course we in India can always extend the Sharia to Muslims for criminal punishments so that we can have one-armed ex-thieves and raped women jailed for adultery.

That ought to sit well with some of you folks.

I understand the courts in Pakistan refer to the CrPC of Pakistan of 1935... which would actually be the CrPC of India.

I think we should return the compliment by incorporating the Hudood Ordinances into Indian law.

Can we expect the Protectors of Minorities aka the Congress and the Leftists to protect the virtue of Indian Muslim women by enforcing the burqa and the Hudood laws?

#442 by rahul_capri & #446 by nb

You have raised some very valid points. Since I don’t know much about the internal politics of India, I can’t comment on strength of the opposition to secularism in India. But from what reaches the world through media, it appears that they are in considerable numbers. Another thing is Indian law. Some of your laws seem to be based on religious reasons. For example, some of your states prohibit cow slaughter and some states prohibit conversion from one religion to another. And from what I understand, there are also certain laws which give certain concessions to minorities based on their religious values. These laws don’t necessarily exploit people and I understand that they could be necessary due to composition of Indian society. But they do negate the basic idea of secularism because a secular state (in principle) shouldn’t have laws based on religious reasons.

#447 by ballukhan

Political state of affairs in Pakistan is actually worse than what you are saying. The composition of most of the leadership of Muslim League in 1947 says a lot about what followed. Most of the leaders belonged to a certain elite class which had just switched sides from the British to Muslim League sensing the strong public mood in favor of formation of Pakistan. This elite class has been ruling Pakistan ever since, regardless of elected government or military dictatorship. No one (including the extremist Mullahs) has any chance in front of these people. And masses in general are so disheartened that they have gone into an indifferent state of mind, where they don’t even care anymore about what’s going on.

mohar ji - your arguments are getting a bit boring -- try something new --

harimou:
``So, what is it likely to be: $200 billion, $280 billion or $400 billion?

I want to see all you frikking idiots who mindlessly spout the drivel that Rajiv Gandhi/Manmohan Singh were the economic liberators of India come out with your preditions.``

You talk as if forex reserves are the only criterion of a country`s well-being. They may be an indicator of economic health but only in conjunction with other indicators. If the reserves go up to $400 billion, it would not automatically imply good economic management or vice-versa. In case you didn`t know, the RBI has been for some time been concerned about the large increases in forex reserves.

Forex reserves are primarily a function of the attractiveness of a country`s currency; it could mean that the currency is undervalued for the terms of trade, or expected to be revalued, or yields higher interest rates than available elsewhere, or that preferential treatment is given to forex inflows, such as no tax on NRI deposits. As a matter of fact, I would hope that forex reserves do not rise any further; that the Indian corporations use these reserves to acquire attractive companies abroad to seek a global presence or to import the latest machinery and technology to increase their productivity and international competitiveness. This is what I would look for rather than a mindless climbing of the forex reserves.

AhmadBilal#438:
You are right in saying that an India claiming itself to be secular should not be compared to a Pakistan which openly calls itself an Islamic Republic. However, you are not correct in suggesting that for India to be secular Indians ought to be secular.

India is secular because its constitution is secular and not for other reasons, although the fact that none of the head of the state, the chief executive and the chief of the ruling party is currently from the 85% religous majoriyu, is a feat of which any country claiming to be secular can be proud of. In case you did not know, when John F. Kennedy contested the President`s election in 1960, his religion, Roman Catholic, was considered to be a serious handicap; and he was the first Roman Catholic to be elected as the President. And even in the recent gubernatorial elections in Louisiana, the Indian Bobby Jindal widely publicised the fact that he had renounced his religion of birth and was a convert to christianity to win the acceptance by the voters.

Indians by and large are not secular, nor are all Indian institutions, especially the police, flawless in administering the country in a completely secular way. But these are imperfections of a work in progress, not a reason to disqualify it as a secular state.

to be honest i was quite stung by your reply, so latent it was with vitriol. instead of giving cogent replies to my posits, you chose to peddle age old myths, cliches and jingoism , it seems, straight from the RSS mouthpiece `Organiser`. calling me koop mandook and panditji , a bandit shows that the Hindu etho of having respect for others( even if they have an alternative viewpoint), especially elders is not a part of your `save hinduism` mission. not particularly surprised after listening to Mr. Narendra Modi at an election rally in my hometown. that he has trouble accepting Sonia and her foreign origins, i can understand but to oppose it he has to employ such vulgar language is beyond me.

.....As to the secularism of Congress, tell us why Hindus, Christians, Sikhs, etc., are not allowed to have multiple wives but Muslims alone are entitled to polygamy? ....
dear Harimau, only sikhs are allowed to keep weapons(Kripans), hindus their ` hindu undivided family` law, etc. special provisions have been made for all the communities. why single muslims out?

....Why should Muslims be given tax money, at least 85% of it paid by its 85% Hindu population, to go to Mecca......
tax money not only goes towards haj pilgrimage but also for the upkeep and building attendant infrastructure for a number of hindu and sikh shrines.

abolition of Zamindari system was more about challenging the status quo and the traditional power of the entrenched landed aristocracy( not an easy task), than land distribution. please do not confuse these two issues. land distribution gradually happened by itself in western U.P( my native region) under the aegis of jat leader charan singh but failed to succeed in eastern U.P and north bihar, where dominant thakurs scuttled it. bhudaan movement was primarily concentrated in that region. in fact even now W.Bengal is the only state which can claim comprehensive land reforms.

.....The moral standing is shown to be in fact moral bankruptcy when he stood by and watched China invade Tibet in 1952.... that is moral cowardice. The same moral cowardice continued in 1956 when ......

panditji did`nt exactly stood by and watched. he condemned the chinese invasion from every forum and gave official refuge to the dalai lama against the chinese wishes.
1956 Hungary invasion was condemned jointly by both India and China. and in no uncertain terms. i.e even when pakistan had signed baghdad pact in 1955 and had started to receive huge arm assistance from America. that the same Soviets supported India over Goa in 1961,when U.S & U.K and most of the western world screamed as if it was one of the most wile aggression and transgression of freedom, is different matter. by 1968 chek issue, panditji was long gone and geopolitics had altered considerably. it was only because of our pro soviet tilt at this time, that Indira could dismember Pakistan. Soviet veto in the security council was vital.

the list is endless and i only wish Harimau that you do`nt substitute fact with myth and fiction. and also show more grace, character and respect towards others.

I remember some of the idiots bitterly criticizing the NDS government`s ``interference`` in educational institutions when Murli Manohar Joshi ordered a reduction in the tuition charged by the IIM`s.

I am sure those same people have nothing to say about this piece of information. After all, it is being done by the Leftists who are the only ones capable of looking out for the financial welfare of the people of India.

Govt may stop funding 4 IIMs

Pioneer News Service/ New Delhi

Even though the new HRD Ministry is working out a fresh formula to implement the fee-cut decision of the previous Government, it is expected to stop funding four of the six resource-rich Indian Institute of Management (IIM).

Sources said the ministry may propose to stop grants to IIM Ahmedabad, IIM Bangalore, IIM Calcutta and IIM Lucknow centres at the meeting of the Board of Governors and IIM directors with HRD Minister Arjun Singh on Monday.

According to top officials in the ministry, the annual income of the four top IIMs range anywhere between Rs 8 and 10 crore. Officials said that IIM Kozhikode and IIM Indore are likely to be provided grants of Rs one crore each for a period of three to five years until they are able to sustain themselves.

Sources said the ministry is planning to utilise the savings for opening three new IIMs in the North, the North east and along the eastern coastline between Bhubaneswar and Chennai.

The Shunglu Committee, set up to go into the fee-cut issue, had recommended that the three leading IIMs at Ahmedabad, Bangalore and Kolkata are rich enough to take care of themselves without charging any fee at all.

The meeting between Mr Singh and the directors and the chairmen of all the six IIMs on Monday will take up for discussion the views of these prestigious B-schools on the fee-cut decision taken by former HRD Minister Murli Manohar Joshi.

``We are open to discussions with the new minister,`` said Devi Singh, director, IIM Lucknow. ``Until last year, the Government grants have been to a tune of Rs four to eight crore per annum depending on our requirement,`` he said.

Sources said the HRD Ministry is expected to put forth a new graded fee-cut formula for the IIMs to fix fees per student on the basis of family income. The IIMs will provide free education to students from families whose total income is less than Rs 1.5 lakh per year. For families earning Rs 1.5 lakh to Rs 5 lakh, the IIMs will ensure that their wards receive bank loans on easy terms to pay the Rs 1.5-lakh annual fee. And for those who earn more than Rs 5 lakh a year, the IIMs will charge the current fee of Rs 1.5 lakh, the sources said. These figures and slabs are tentative pending discussions with the IIMs.

However, sources said that the ministry will emphasise that proper accounting and auditing be done by the IIMs. The ministry might suggest an audit by a Government-approved Chartered Accountant firm or the right to veto the choice of the IIMs.

According to the Shunglu Committee recommendations, IIMs should be audited by accountants appointed by the Government and should then have a supplementary audit by the Comptroller and Auditor-General, and that, all IIMs should follow the same policy and format for accounting.

Besides exploring an amicable solution to the issue, which is pending before the Supreme Court, the crucial meeting is expected to take up the issue of autonomy as well, the sources said.

All of you continuing to claim that but for Manmohan Singh`s economic reforms in the early 1990s, India would be in dire straits today, here is something I want you to think about.

When Manmohan Singh left office, the forex reserves of India stood at $18 billion. That was after 45+ years of Congress ``governance``.

As the NDA government left office (after 6 years in power) the forex reserves stood at $119 billion.

Can we expect that 5 years hence, India`s forex reserves would be $200 billion ($101 billion in 6 years translates to a rate of $16 billion a year, giving us an additional $80 billion if the UPA stays in power for 5 years)?

If we consider that during the last year, the forex reserves grew at the rate of $3 billion a month, we should expect an increase of $180 billion in 5 years leading to reserves of $280 billion in 5 years.

Instead of linear growth, if we consider accelerated growth, India`s forex reserves should hit probably $400 billion in 5 years.

So, what is it likely to be: $200 billion, $280 billion or $400 billion?

I want to see all you frikking idiots who mindlessly spout the drivel that Rajiv Gandhi/Manmohan Singh were the economic liberators of India come out with your preditions.

I shall be repeatedly posting this question during the next 5 years along with any monthly report on forex position so that one of us (you or me) can eat crow.

Rsridhar, leave the gold alone, thanks.
It has traditionally been the only thing women received. Why go for the gold(excuse the pun-in this country, it also means other things not suited to a family site, but I don`t mean that)?Men own so many things, but you don`t have an eye on that. No, straightaway, it`s the gold-let`s take away from women what little they have so that they can be even more dependent on men. The Brits used to claim in the days of the Raj that Indians were actually rich, just pretending,starving to death to be contrary, after all, look at the gold the women wear.
Ahmed Bilal,
The Gujarat riots were a disgrace, no two ways about that, but I still do not accept that the state machinery was involved. They didn`t do as much as they could have, or should have, but you suggest they actively encouraged the targeting of Muslims. I have yet to see proof of that. Please don`t ask me to see articles by Arundhati, et al, she may be an ok writer, but plucks her facts from thin air. The Supreme Court has done the right thing by getting the Bilkis case heard out of Gujarat, because in any case where the police look incompetent, they will try to hush things up. Surely Pakistanis know all about that?

#436 by rsridhar on May 29, 2004 6:38pm PT
The truth of the matter is that Pakistan has been living in the shadow of its powerful military dictators and feudals. It`s muslim citizens are hopelessly impoversihed and un-able to determine their own fate in their own chosen land. Their dictators have cried hoarse about the lack of `genuine` democracy elsewhere- and have always fooled its citizens with the `great` work they have done in instilling the genuine `democracy` with their equally `genuine` referendums. Their constitution had been doctored by hundreds of LFO since last 50 years- and they have been fed with the images of horror that IM would have to suffer in living in a multi-religious , multi-ethnic country. THEY actually are hopelessly unable to do anything about their own political future- unlike what IM have shown in this election in India. One can only pity these creatures of delusion who refuse to acknowledge the truth that PAkistani muslims are in a hopeless political mess today.

Ahmed Bilal - 433
You are right in saying that we should be talking about India.Ok, lets do that.
You say-``Government machinery in a secular state doesn’t take sides based on religious affiliations.`` Says who? You are confusing the behaviour of some people with the fabrication of the Indian constitution. State machinery has been known to take sides in communal riots.State machinery has also been known to misuse its power, but not on the basis of the religion alone. It can be caste, class,political ideology.Sometimes students have their human rights violated,sometimes transvestites,sometimes theatre people.Relegious discrimination by state machinery is a part of the larger problem of human rights violation, not a denial of secularism per se.See, in a society there will always be all kinds of people.We can say that there are few people on the extreme end of the spectrum because there is no glass ceiling for people of any race/class/creed/religion in India.This is not only written in stone in our constitution, you can see examples in Indian life anywhere.And so, we are a secular state.Citing an exception, (riots are an exception/aberration) only proves the rule.

Ref 441 harimau:

Punjab University should honor an alumnus (Khorana) like every other university in the world. He should atleast be mentioned on the PU website.

Ref rsridhar #434

[Another thing.
Do a little research (since you have a computer at home and a lot of spare time) and find out how much Gold is hidden among the households in India. This is a whopping sum but it lies dormant in individual homes as security. Schemes to bring this into open would result in unbounded prosperity. So, you see, you do not need any foreign investments. There is plenty at home. Only there is no will, no honesty.]

Omigod, another pathetic attempt to spread the gospel of socialism and state control!

We already must have ``unbounded prosperity`` in India. In fact, we must have had ``unbounded prosperity`` since the end of 1962. It is just that those of us who believe our own eyes don`t want to accept the simple fact ``unbounded prosperity`` exists in India. On the other hand, it is those who can see the ``unbounded prosperity`` of India through their inner eye do not accept that ``India is shining``.

FYI, the Congress government under Nehru passed the Gold Control Act back in 1962 -- just after the Chinese invasion of India -- which limited the amount of gold individuals could possess, the purity of that gold (18 karat as opposed to 22 karat), and mandated the surrender of the excess over the limit to the government.

We all have been enjoying ``unbounded prosperity`` since then.

PS. I do hope your knowledge of medicine is better than your knowledge of history or economics.