India Votes - and How!

Talked to some of my shining/whining relatives, most of who are urban, middle-class and partially shining and partially whining. Some voted for Govinda (ignoring Kamal) because he is young. Very unhappy thought to see Vajpayee go, but not distrubed unduly. Overall, this BS of garib folks and lower castes voting bjp out is just that, bs.

e.g. Stukas Delhi, Amchi Mumbai, Harimaus Chennai, and most major metros threw their weight/votes with congress. These alone would account for some 60 odd seats.

most of my middle-class, urban, middle class folks though have shined in past few years, have continually whined as well, specially at the loss of staple jobs such as those with nationalized banks and psus. so if anybody is to be blamed for bjp loss, its the PSMWUMC (partially shiny, mostly whiny, urban middle class). It seems that only nris were strong bjp supporters. and no, the vote had nothing to do with gujrath, gujrath is pretty much forgotten by others except the victims and the accused.

Your comment:
``Secularism in actions and results and not merely principles.....``

Definition of secularism from the random house college dictionary:

`` tendency of a political and social philosophy that rejects all forms of religious faiths.``

In the llight os the above definition, I ask this question:

Is India democratic? The answer is YES

BUT when I ask the question:

Is India Secular? then the answer is not quite simple.

Based on the definition of the word ``secularism`` from the random house college dictionary, when applied to any governemt, means that legislation, judiciary and ecective branches of the government should not even coem close to any religious idea when conducting business.

Now look at some contrasts between USA and India.

Just pull out a 100 rupee Indian note and look at the four faced (one face not visible) lion. To my understanding the Lion pertains to Hindu religion. NOW pull out a dollar bill and look closely. You will not find any relevance to any religion although USA is predominantly Christian.

Now look at the Indian Flag.

The Chakkar pertains to a Hindu king. Now look at the USA flag. You will not find any relevance to any religion.

And how come when I call the Indian consulate in USA I hear ``Namaskar.`` If India is secular then why not just Good Morning as in USA.

In fact in USA the famous ``Ten-Commanments`` plaque have been removed from many places by filing lawsuit in the supereme court of USA. There is a recent lawsuit which is trying to remove the word ``God`` from the pledge of alligience.

In USA you will find secularism at its best. Gay marraiges in USA are now legal since many constituancies voted for the measure and won. Try doing this in India!

So India might be a shining example of democracy but secularism is quite another thing.

As far as women and minority Presidents are concerned in USA, you will see one when people decided to vote for it.

Asfand

Will the last person leaving India please turn off the lights ?

well well well...sonia gandhi as PM of India! Guess Hindus like being ruled by foreigners!! :D
that was just a silly joke...

..i am quite surprised that they won (i remember when i asked what congress`s chances were a month or so ago on another board i was ridiculed for asking!) well guess what folks? it happened!

actually i think it is good for India. and definitely good for india`s image abroad. at least Congress claim to be secular although i am not one of those people who suddenly think everything will be hunky dory all of a sudden. still anything is better than those bjp fascists. if i was an indian i would definitely vote fo congress. the gandhis are educated and sophisticated. well bred and of good stock. khaandaanii. in the subcontinent that matters a lot to the average man. and from a religious perspective the Roman Catholic Sonia is at least Ahle Kitab and much closer to Islam than the pagans of the BJP.

as far as pakistan is concerned i don`t think there will be much change to the indo-pak peace movement.

of course you can bet that the bjp will, once again, become more extreme and more rabidly anti muslim/christian in opposition than when they were in power.


the best thing about this for india is that it shows india does have a real functioning democracy. that`s really admirable. hat`s off to hindustan for that. let`s hope we can have this in pakistan too...

btw is it common for indians to refer to india as hindustan? on star news yesterday i watched an interview with rahul gandhi who referred to india as hindustan and not bharat. might just be his UP roots...

Vereesh #45: ``the big problem is where you say India assisted in breaking Pakistan into two parts. Did India send the Pakistan Army to East Bengal / East Pakistan / Bangladesh to kill Bengalis? No, the Pakistanis did it to themselves,``

I was not placing primary blame on India. That blame goes on Pakistan. I was just pointing out that India assisted, which it did. Everyone accepts that. Didn`t Indira Gandhi insist it was India`s duty to get self-determination for Bangladeshis, and afterwards crossed the international border. If I am wrong, please do correct me.

I personally think Bangladeshis should have been independent. Unlike your lack of support for self-determination for Kashmir, I support Bangladeshi self-determination. So I have nothing agianst that. The aim was to point out that Pakistan has a lot of grudges against India, also, yet it is willing to move away from status quo. And Indians should do the same....

Interestingly you did not comment on Siachen.....

``On Baluchistan, that was my late father`s Regiment and there are still more than a few from there who are in touch with the family. If you think there is no Baluchi movement, for freedom, then maybe you really need to go walkabout.``

Baluchistan Regiment has about as much to do with Baluchistan, as Lyndi England has to do with England. In my whole military career, I met maybe five officers from Baluchistan. I worked with far more Christians than Baluchis. So I doubt you will find too many Baluchis in the Baluchistan Regiment.

In any case, assuming your freedom movement theory is correct, could you highlight whether the Baluchis are they trying to get freedom from sunnis, shias, military, poverty, of from Pakistan all together? And who is leading the Baluchi independence movement? Is PM Jamali a part of that movement? How is it being controlled? Is the Army deployed there in Baluchistan to control it? How many Baluchis are getting killed every day? What are the demands of this Baluchi independence movement? Is it supported by a majority of Baluchis? Why is Baluchistan the least militarized province in all of Pakistan, and maybe all of South Asia? Why did the Baluchi tribals recently get defeated in the elections by the MMA maulvis? Are the maulvis asking for an independent Baluchistan and an independent NWFP?

``On women in Pakistan, yes, social movement, sure, you want to think so, fine. I think you should meet some of the poorer women from Pakistan at free-to-air locations. Like on The Train. And take that as a representative sample of how many would rather live in a country where women are equal to men, or one where there is a Hudood Law.``

Are you seriously suggesting that women in Pakistan are asking to separate from Pakistan? Are you seriously suggesting that you have met more poor women from Pakistan, on a train, than I have through living in Pakistan? Not only women, but most men also, migrate out of Pakistan (and India) the moment they get the chance, for varoius reasons. Are they all involved in, ``freedom`` movements? India sends 10 times as many people to the USA as Pakistan. Do they all leave India, because of freedom movements?

``And finally, am I a Kashmiri? Let me see, how do you and I define ``Kashmiri``, then? And please ensure that any definition of ``Kashmiri`` should, by rights, work for other communities using the format of that definition too.``

Yes, a defintion should work for everyone. A Kashmiris is someone who has a domicile in Kashmir, and/or has a parent who is ethncally a Kashmiri. Its pretty easy to define. Based on this, I am neither a Pathan, nor a Tamil, nor a Baluchi. Similarly, I doubt you are a Kashmiri. If you are one, that is great also. You have a right to then, cast your vote on what you want Kashmir to be. And let everyone else cast theirs. If you aren`t one, then you need to mind your own business, and let them decide what they want to do, and listen to what they say, rather than become their spokesperson.....

P.S. If there actually is an imaginary Baluchi freedom struggle going on, which no one has realized enough to suppress, then I think Baluchis should decide what they want to do. Not you, nor I. Let them decide. If they want to be, ``free`` of Pakistan, then they should be allowed to be free. I apply the same rules everywhere.......

This was a shock to me. I really believed that the NDA would make it. After all India has never been more prosperous and stronger than it is right now. When I take a look at the distance we have come since 1998, it is quite astounding.

Having said the above, there certainly were many aspects of the Sangh Parivar that made my blood boil. Gujarat, saffronising of history and the futzing around with the IIMs. I happen to believe that Narendra Modi caused enormous damage to India and it was just a matter of time before payment would be extracted. I am absolutely elated that Murli Manohar Joshi got his butt handed to him.

Now that the correction has occured, I feel that some balance has been restored as far as India`s secular and Democratic traditions and practices are concerned. If the Congress can rule the country with basically centrist policies possible with a slight left slant, I will not be too unhappy.

I will support anyone who will largely continue the policies currently in place for the economy, external affairs, defense and infrastructure planning and development. I don`t see the direction changing radically since this direction was originally set by Congress governments and continued on and strengthened by subsequent non-cong governmants. Also, I believe congress was consulted and in many instances there was broadbased consensus between the ruling and the opposition parties as far as the above core sectors are concerned.

I also had another problem with the NDA governament and that was the age of the key leaders. I would like to think that Congress will bring in some fresh young people into the administration. I am very impressed with Jairam Ramesh. I hope we get to see lot more people like him come up. I see that SM Krishna is now free I wish he gets drafted to serve in the central cabinet.

Last but not least, BJP may not be ruling but is very much alive in the opposition. BJP is a far more powerful opposition party to Congress than the Congress ever was to the BJP. So, you can rest assured that they will keep Congress govt honest.

The people of India have spoken and we should all accept it and look to the future with hope and optimism.

Jay Thakeray - where the hell are you?

Someone go find Jay Thakeray. Every measly thing he stood for - booted out by the Indian voter. It is too dangerous to leave Jay by himself at a time like this...no arjun either I see. This is getting serious. What will become of all these chowk hindutvas now...homeless...disowned...

(background funeral drumbeat)

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Ref CoolAL #75

[I see that SM Krishna is now free I wish he gets drafted to serve in the central cabinet.]

SM Krishna refused to obey a direct order from the Supreme Court and you want him in the Central cabinet?

[The people of India have spoken...]

Indeed, the bastards have.

[.... and we should all accept it and look to the future with hope and optimism.]

When rape is inevitable, lie back and enjoy it.

Asfand #64,

``Just pull out a 100 rupee Indian note and look at the four faced (one face not
visible) lion. To my understanding the Lion pertains to Hindu religion. NOW pull
out a dollar bill and look closely. You will not find any relevance to any religion
although USA is predominantly Christian.``

Both the lion and the chakra in the Indian flag/bill context are from Emperor Ashoka,
if I remember correctly - not from any overt Hindu source. He was actually Buddhist.
You can find similar lion-faced ``stambha`` and inscriptions of Ashoka at the Pak-Afghan
border as well.

Perhaps you need to look more closely at the dollar bill. How could you possibly
miss the ``In God we trust`` part ?

#69 Romair
``You have a right to then, cast your vote on what you want Kashmir to be. And let everyone else cast theirs. If you aren`t one, then you need to mind your own business, and let them decide what they want to do, and listen to what they say, rather than become their spokesperson.....``
Well, that kind of referendum is unconstitutional (in India). If the constitution has to be altered, there is a democratic process for that too, and that includes the whole of India.

Asfand #64

{{To my understanding the Lion pertains to Hindu religion.}}

{{The Chakkar pertains to a Hindu king.}}

{{And how come when I call the Indian consulate in USA I hear ``Namaskar.``}}

Check out:

Caught In Between #347 on September 21, 2001

The Great Illusion #152 on March 29, 2002

This genius has asked the same dumbfounding questions about the ‘Hindu greeting’ namaste/namaskar and the Ashoka chakra at least twice before already. He was answered both times. He seems to be utterly incapable of learning, like some other distinguished savants from his country. Another outstanding product of Pakistan’s educational system …

Afsand

~~The Chakkar pertains to a Hindu king. Now look at the USA flag. You will not find any relevance to any religion~~

Try taking your feet out of your mouth before speaking. The insignia on the flags and notes are the stamps of ASOKA who was the ancient BUDDHIST Emperor of India and the relevancy of his iconography is the SECULAR temporal laws he instituted across his empire...perhaps the first attempts of such a kind in this landmass.

Seriously dude sort out your facts first because when you try to give a lecture and then come out with stupidity you end up looking stupid yourself.

cheerio

:-)