India Votes - and How!

Actually, the analysis of the votes polled and percentages therein make for even more interesting reading. But that is for another day.

It is in context with Pakistan that I think the author tends to forget one big factor.

Any move to ``solve`` the Kashmir issue will need to be motivated by Pakistan. Turmoil in Pakistan could have a bigger bearing on this than anything ``from`` India.

From what I can make out, the Indian position of ``status quo ante`` seems to be it for the next few years.

i am not a nationalist and do not believe in the jingoiam that is usually whipped up over one`s national identity...
but that fact that out of nearly 65 crore elible indians, we could not choose one indian born as our PM...it should atleast get us thinking...

Sitaram Yechury says:
``An attempt to revive loss-making PSUs, should first be made, with possible private capital induction in a public-private joint venture, failing which it should be disposed after discussions with the management, the workers and the government.``
http://in.rediff.com/money/2004/may/14inter.htm

Commies live in a world of their own, as they have no experience in the ``real world``. Which industrialist in his rght mind is going to invest in a ``public-private`` partnership where the ministry will still call the shots?

Let me open the first act of the Congress-Left partnership for you:
With oil prices at $41 /bbl the first tough decision that will have to be taken is raising fuel prices. ``Populism`` is a powerful weapon, you can use it to stike your opponents but sooner or later you are hoisted on your own petard.

- its www.bharat-rakshak.com

- `` their disregard of gender and sexuality for example are quite upsetting``
What does this mean?

- `` What?s more problematic is the left?s attachment to the idea of the nation state, a concept that I have lots of trouble with``
So what idea are you attached to?

- ``It?d be better if she could speak Hindi passably or articulate publicly without having a script in front of her``
So it doesnt disturb you that she has her fingers on the red button and is privy to every state secret?

- ``it should mean that the unthinking sale of even profitable public sector undertakings at the altar of the IMF / World Bank should slow down at least.``

Good lord, another worshipper at the feet of Arundhati Roy. Atleast think before you speak. Its been more than a decade since India took and IMF loan, what does IMF have to do with divestment?
Lets take an example the ONGC stake sale, how did it harm the company or the country?

RSS/VHP/BJP should not consider this verdict a rejection of Hindutva movement.

It`s primarily a rejection of the economic policies coupled with Anti-Incumbency and other regional/caste factors.

Actually, It`s three states which delivered the government to Cong+.

AP (35 seats)- Verdict implies this:

1) A long overdue correction towards the rural policies

2) Huge anti-incumbency (existing government in power for 9 years)

3) Seperate Telangana movement

4) A rejection of the privatization (Concerns about the past privitization of public enterprises and esp. about the future privatization efforts)


TamilNadu (40 seats)- Verdict implies this:

1) Anti-Incumbency and revenge of public sector employees (They haven`t forgotten the treaatment meted out to them by Jayalalitha)

2) Solid coalition: No fissures in the anti-jayalalitha coalition (Once DMK, Cong+ unites, difficult to break. Unlikely to continue in future since DMK is inherently anti Congress)

West Bengal - Verdict implies this:

1) General rejection of public sector privitization

2) Totally ineffective campaigning and positioning by Trinamool Congress

Regards to Hindutva, as the RSS head had aptly put it, the dilution of agenda had contributed to the defeat, not the promotion of it. Once religion is not an issue, voters fall back to caste/region based issues. BJP has to learn to continuously bring religion as an agenda. Does not mean bringing Modi to the campaigns.

Following issues which can improve the future performance:

1) Hindutva does not mean promotion of mass murderers (cut down Modi).

2) Hindutva movement needs to be broadened in UP/Bihar in terms of caste representations (Need more Kalyan Singhs)

3) Continue the movement even when not in power. (Esp. being vigilant about the Commies efforts to turn the clock back in Academia)

We should give Congress the chance to correct themselves but the Gandhi dynasty arrogance will be detrimental to India in the long term.

Also, I have four words that sum up the darkness and ugly face behind all this:

Jagdish Tytler Sajjan Kumar

Both rehabilitated and joyfully free and now, guess what guys, MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT

Democracy and all that

How wonderful

Anyway, lets give them a chance but watch them like hawks

//....their precious economic reforms..//

Oh boy - there we go. With commies out of the woodwork -you can all forget about economic reforms.

I knew it.

[And don’t think that the government will be able to reduce the size of the army or deny it the toys that the boys from www.bharatrakshak.com salivate over without similar shrieks of betrayal from the right.]

The last time the Indian Government neglected the Armed Forces, India ended up losing 14,000 square miles of territory in Aksai Chin.

I guess idiots like you won`t be happy until you have Chinese troops living inside your house and you are camped on your lawn.

[I’m not a hardcore supporter of the left ..]

No, you are just the type of literate idiot who reads `The Hindu` and `Frontline` and think that N. Ram is god.

Congress and the Left parties are anti-national. It is no surprise that their leader was not born in India.

adh jul gagri chulkut jai -- a few drops of IT jobs in the Ocean of a Billion Impoverished People -- abandoned by the Elitist Fascistas -- squandering country`s precious reserve -- on arms purchase spree -- dreaminng of Ruling the Indian Ocean for that Texas Mongol....whose days are also numbered .....by the way

GOOD RIDDANCE......since when the Baby Burners got the Monopoly on the IT technology....

...THE INDIAN JUGGERNAUT IS FINALLY ON THE MOVE....

Veeresh, I agree. Kashmir would be resigned to the status qou and that suits Pakistan more. There would be no give or take. At the most, Siachin may be de militarised. That suits India more than Pakistan. The freedom struggle in my perspective would live to fight another day.

I dont think there would be a reversal to India Shinning. After all it was Rajiv who liberalsied the economy.

All those marginalised by the communal policies of the hardcore in BJP Alliance at last got out to stamp their verdict. This is what people`s power can do.On the other hand here are all the chances that communialism in BJP pereferies increases.

It appears that it is the end of the road for the great politician that Vajpaee is. But who knows, what happens in the next few years. With early elections BJP may just crawl back.

Thanks, you`re the first person I`ve found who`s happy. How quickly we forget. Indira ruled India like an empress; her family still treats India like its fiefdom. I remember the Congress I holding summits with the communist party of the USSR talking about bringing the two ruling parties together...Maybe this is what Indians want. I say, bring back the Maharajas, we are too feudal for anything else, and we always vote them in anyway. At least they look good on their elephants.
I cannot imagine a Hindu country.The Gujarat riots completely unsettled me. But I still think Vajpayee was the best Prime Minister ever. And I will not apologise for being Hindu. I went to a Catholic school where Hindu festivals and beliefs were routinely ridiculed. Because of the BJP, this no longer happens. Is this a bad thing? What would happen in St Joseph`s Convent, Murree- the same order that ran my school-if they openly ridiculed Islam?
Three cheers for Laloo. The whole country can look forward to the kind of law and order they have in Bihar, where you can kidnap a girl and make her marry you and get the entire ministry to attend. Of course, he`s casteist, not communalist, so that makes him secular, therefore good and pure.
As for Sonia, the less said the better....a woman who waited 15 years after her marriage to the Prime Minister`s son to become an Indian citizen, who sought refuge in the Italian Embassy during Janata rule, how can anyone question her patriotism? So what if her friends all received the Bofors bribes-that had nothing to do with her, of course.
No one can defend Jayalalitha, but it`s not like Karunanidhi`s much better. I never could understand how Tamils have leaders like those 2.
There has been a section of the media that has relentlessly harassed the BJP. I can see the gloating already. Large sections will be made redundant because they won`t be able to criticise the government any more. I agree with Veeresh, what do you want India to do to improve relations?Are we the ones supporting terrorism? No one actually cares about Kashmir any more, if they ever did, the West is busy with other things.
You don`t think the markets are important? They fall enough, you lose your job. More importantly, more people go hungry at night. The Left is already asking for divestment to stop. I see this as the India of the bullock cart overcoming the India of the computer and the 8 % growth rate. Enjoy the tamasha. You think it`s over. I think this is just the beginning.

Good analysis. One thing that`s missed though is the utter disbelief of most intelligent urban Indians at this result. Most of us still have our mouths open, unable to comprehend how the incumbent party, which won on a plank as stupid as ``mandir wohee banyengay`` was unable to capitalise on a perfectly safe (if not entirely true) ``India Shining`` plank. Me for one refuses to believe in the explanations for the rout about how the real India is NOT shining, that this was only limited to the urban elite, etc. Frankly one doubts a media campaign spanning a couple of months, albeit a 700 crore one, can have that sort of widespread negative impact.

I am more of the belief that the BJP has lost out at the organisational level, at the ``grassroots`` as it were, where the Congress has somehow managed to make maximum impact. The fact that the Beej let their mad dogs (Modi et al) loose to spout venom and invective on who is after all the nation`s ``bahu`` was not lost on the electorate either, it seems. Or maybe the explanantion is as mundane as the Congress spending more money on arrack and sarees- who knows? Whatever it is, it`s a death blow to the BJP and a resounding ``pffffffffft`` to all the psephologists (aren`t those the guys who tell your future from the bumps on your head? No?) and exit pollsters that ran riot during these elections!

Lucknow hum pur Khafa hai...hum khafaye Lucknow.....

Secularism in actions and results and not merely principles.....and a woman to top it all as the PM.
Hats off....to the great institution of Indian democracy......we should be looking up at it.
Even the US ( self professed champions in democracy) are yet to implement their secularism and minority representation in actions....not a woman president yet!
Not a single black ( or for that matter Hispanic, Chinese or other Asian head of the state yet)....considering that this minority in US constitutes 20% of the poulation ( 17% blacks and 3% others)

Let us see if the Pakistan has the wherewithall to do the same. Forget do ing the same....atleast taking a small step.....

aniruddha:

...as an alleged concerned pakistani first congradulatons on a peaceful (election and) transfer of power...

...and again...with the interest of pakistan first:

--i would hope that the new government continues with carrot and stick policies to ensure that the peace process goes forward...

--i would hope that the occupying army is forced to remove itself from the due political processes...

--i would hope that the democratic traditions take root in pakistan...

...perhaps am foolish...but who can deny me dreaming...

lve,

t

should I weep or shall I cry tears of jo?????? GOVINDA WON!!!!!!!

I ALWAYS BELIEVED IN HIM. IN ALL HIS ABILITIES. IN ALL HIS POTENTIAL!!!

Forgive the analogies, but this victory is nothing less than the analogy of RAJA DHABA INTERNATIONAL TAKING OVER THE FIVE STAR HOTEL!!!

TRULY A GREAT DAY. GREAT DAY!

should I weep or shall I cry tears of jo?????? GOVINDA WON!!!!!!!

I ALWAYS BELIEVED IN HIM. IN ALL HIS ABILITIES. IN ALL HIS POTENTIAL!!!

Forgive the analogies, but this victory is nothing less than the analogy of RAJA DHABA INTERNATIONAL TAKING OVER THE FIVE STAR HOTEL!!!

TRULY A GREAT DAY. GREAT DAY!

the elections happened in india, veeresh ji, not pakistan, where the incumbent govt has been voted out of office -- hence any change in position on any domestic or foreign policy would have to come from the new govt in the country where the elections have recently taken place -- most probably nothing will happen to the process underway between the two countries --

the elections happened in india, veeresh ji, not pakistan, where the incumbent govt has been voted out of office -- hence any change in position on any domestic or foreign policy would have to come from the new govt in the country where the elections have recently taken place -- most probably nothing will happen to the process underway between the two countries --

From the article:

{{What’s more problematic is the left’s attachment to the idea of the nation state, a concept that I have lots of trouble with.}}

{{let alone make any serious concessions on Kashmir (without which the issue will not be solved)}}

Is this creature for real?

The election results have been a suprise for everyone. No one, even in his wildest dreams could have imagined such a resounding victory for the Congress and humiliation for the BJP-led NDA.

I think the BJP`s defeat has nothing to do with it`s economic and foreign policies. It has performed spectacularly well on those fronts. If anything, it is it`s domestic policies that could be the reason. While many have staunchly supported the BJP`s economic and foreign policies, they have been disgusted at the way it handled the Gujarat riots. Vajpayee`s greatest mistake was to let Narendra Modi off the hook for the sordid role he played in the riots that severely dented Gujarat`s, nay India`s secular ethos. At least in Gujarat, the two communities are more apart today than ever before, and this victory for the Congress is some solace for the affected. I feel that in the BJP`s defeat, some justice has been done to the affectees and this, hopefully, reinforces their faith in India and Indianness. It is also a great victory for Indian democracy. This defeat might also help the party realize that while religion can temporarily hold sway over the Indian voter, it can never erase the innate tolerance that is embedded deep inside his heart. It has also shown that in this part of the world, Indian democracy is perhaps the finest example of liberty and equality accorded to the poorest of the poor. Even the mightiest of leaders must bow down before his wishes. Even the staunchest India critic would admit that after all, the humble voter does have a say in the national scheme.

Having said that, it is not going to be an easy ride for the Congress. It must realize that it has come into power after 8 long years. Populist policies like subsidies and the promise of free power by the Chief Minister of Andhra Pradesh will drain the state`s finances, a trend that the BJP-led government fought hard to arrest. Also, the BJP through it`s economic and foreign policies has raised the bar. The Congress must live up to, or even exceed those standards. Peoples` expectations have grown manifold and they expect their leaders to deliver. Or it won`t be long before the BJP gets a chance to redeem itself.

``I don`t believe in the nation-state (India)...``

We already knew that. But thanks for making it clear anyway.

Congratulations to all Indians (I already said this yesterday on another board - but what the heck!)

This is a great day for India: The electorate of 650 million (OK, 55% of them, but that is still a decent turnout compared to 51% in the last US presidential elections) has spoken, and spoken for pragmatics. And Vajpayee has graciously accepted defeat in elections, and quite rightly pointed out that this smooth working of the democratic process is a victory for India.

This is a great day for Pakistan and other countries in the region: This is a blow on behalf of No one in Pakistan can say ``Democracy is a western concept and is not suited to third world countries``.


And this is a great day for the world: The Indian voters have shown an alternative future to the world. A future where a woman from another country and culture can become the head of the state.


The only sour note is the continued harping by senior BJP politicians (Sushma whats her name) and by the educated indians (the writer included) about Sonia being a foreigner. You people should be proud of the fact that your voters have shown a level of enlightenment that has made India the leader in the path to human progress. Even the US (much as I admire the great contributions of this country to the cause of democracy) cannot claim this yet. One day it will follow India`s lead, and you will have a woman president in the US, who may be of desi descent...Till then, India is number one in this field.

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Hello Omar ji . . . I know, I know . . . but let me try and explain anyway?

1) Unlike in other uhhhhm democratic / socialist / republican countries . . . elections in India hardly ever provide right angle turns, or even tangents. Things keep moving, mostly as before, a few degress to the left or right of centre. The framework which runs the country, the politician is just one part. Assimilation by democracy, inertia of numbers, and the understanding by the gameplayers that it is the percentage of votes polled that count ``next time``. So, elections or no elections, please don`t expect India`s position on Kashmir to change. Why on earth should it, now that the railway line is almost there, tourists are flocking back and the apple season is expected to be very succesful (after a bit of a harrowing mango season in the rest of India)

2) My reference to the context about Pakistan changing it`s stance on Kashmir has to do with the fact that the number of ``freedom movements`` in Pakistan itself seem to be on the upswing. So, how long can and will the ``Kashmir Freedom Movement`` hold centre stage?

3) And meanwhile, the levels in the Mangla Dam . . .

vereesh #25: ``number of ``freedom movements`` in Pakistan``

Could you highlight the freedom movements?

I am daily learning more and more things about Pakistan, through your one-week visit, that I did not know, even after growing up there. Do you just write this stuff on Chowk, or do other Indians have access to it through newspaper articles also.

Also, are you suggesting that India will not continue with the peace process, and go back to the status quo. What do you think Pakistan`s reaction to that should be? Should it go back to the status quo, also? Back to UN Resolutions and atut-ang? What good will that do?

I really hope you are in a minority in India, in terms of views about South Asia and peace. I think the biggest fear in Pakistan has been that India is not sincere about Kashmir, and will try to go back to status quo. I am not sure if that is the right way to go for India. Status quo has never solved anything, for 50 years.......

Do take some time to talk to the Kashmiris, and get their point of view also......

Romair ji # 26 - obviously there is more than just a week on the road/rail in one part of Pakistan to it. And I am glad that you are learning more everyday, maybe you should also find time to touch the grassroots in Pakistan, which, after all, is the land of my forefathers too . . . so here is a list of freedom movements ongling in Pakistan, not exclusive, that I observed . . .

a) Freedom from military rule.
b) Freedom from feudal landlords.
c) Baluchistan Freedom.
d) Shia freedom from Sunni and vice-versa.
e) Freedom for women and other minorities.

How`s that, pretty much covers a large segment of the population in Pakistan?

Plenty of Kashmiris, Hindus and Muslims, in my circle of friends. Been there, too . . .

On status-quo and atut-ang, you tell me? From what I gather, the noises and sentiments are the same from Pakistan, too . . . and status quo as a means of deferring a decision, well, what else will work?

``Ajay, who is many years senior to me at the place that I work, declared with a grin early yesterday morning that if the NDA got less than 230, he would treat everyone in the office to biriyani and drinks. Diya Mehra, another colleague of mine, would treat us all “just as long as the BJP was defeated”, she said. Quraishy used a particularly pungent Bengali phrase to indicate that with the current result, far from a mere daaru-and-biriyani treat, Ajay would have to “throw all that he owns in the air with sheer joy”. ``

What kinda idiots do you work with dude? Here;s what going to happen. Disinvestment in PSUs will stop. Loan Melas will start again. The leftists will pretty much srew up all reforms.

The next time there is a natural disaster in India, the government will again stand outside the US embassy with a begging bowl in one hand and a moral lecture against imperialism in another.

One thing that is clear to me. I share nothing with the Bhaiyyas and Poorbiyas who vote on the basis of caste alone. Make no mistake, that was the only reason Congress won, besides making idiotic promises about freebies that it has been making for 50 years without fulfilling anything. So, if poor Indians are starving to death, hell its because they deserve to. People deserve the kind of government they get and it is true even more so in India.

the indian voter has spoken.simple.i`m from tamilnadu and i actually fancy that sonia will be the PM.after vajpayee, what we would have got is an obnoxious ,pan-chewing, hindi speaking, foul mouthed, racist, bigoted north indian from the BJP stable.anyone questioning the wisdom of karunanidhi think again.the people of tamilnadu prefer to stay within the indian union but have an inherrent dislike for the typical pan chewing, filthy north indian stereotype and hindi.actually even the north indians can`t stand the same, otherwise the BJP would have won in a landslide.sonia can speak italian accented indian english and that will be fine with me.jaylalitha will survive.she has done a great job for the state...it is now the `detroit of the east and TN`s software exports are more than AP...no wonder CBN lost...to sum it all up....the indian voter deserves more credit than he is given.

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Aniruddha,

Cong, BJP or Left wing, I don`t care. I do know however that India has won in this sectarian, fascist, religious right environment of the world. No other so called ``illeterate`` or educated and civilized people have ever voted a foreigner and a minority religious person in office this way. To me this shows the strength of institution over individual. A very positive sign indeed.
i think you have gone overboard with this congress victory. Let me just remind you that Punjab problem, 84 sikh riots, kashmir problem and babri-Ram janambhhomi all started when your beloved party was in power. If you think that cong. will make conceesions in kashmir, then you need to get a sanity check up done fast. It`s due to the Gandhi dynasty`s imperious ways that kashmir problem started.
I think personally, Vajapayee still could make concessions and get away with it on kashmir.
Well, lets hope for the best.
Definitely this will spur the parties to perform if they have to survive, as opposed to carrying on with corruption and inefficiency.
Adios

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``It’s quite obscene, the contrast between the attention given in the media to disinvestment, stock splits and listings on the NYSE and the attention given to stuff like housing, potable water and food for every Indian. ``

And the money to spend on stuff like housing, potable water and food will come from where? By getting indebted to foreign lenders or by improving the domestic economy? Either way the Communists cry foul.

Vereesh #27: ``maybe you should also find time to touch the grassroots in Pakistan``

Yes, everyone should learn from grassroots. But it is a bit difficult to touch all the grassroots in twenty years or so that I have spent in Pakistan. I have lived amongst the grassroots of Punjab, NWFP, throughout my professional careers, and visited the grassroots of Kashmir. I have, though, unfortunately not had a chance to see the grassroots of Baluchistan and Sind. Even in a timespan of twenty years. This is why I find in amazing, that in your one (or two) week escapade into Pakistan, you have figured out the grassroots so quickly.

There is a difference between freedom movements and social movements. Freedom movements are based on separatin from a country, i.e. Indian freedom movement from British empire, Bangladesh from Pakistan etc. Social movements are to make a country better, from the inside, without wanting to separate from the country. In fact, social movements are exactly the opposite of freedom movements. They try to ensure that the country is so prosperous and humane that no one wants to leave it.

You seem to be confusing the two.

1. Freedom from military rule: This is not a freedom movement. People want good leadership. Personally speaking, I don`t think they are too bothered where it comes from. They certainly don`t want to separate from Pakistan.

2. Feudal Landlords: This is a social movement. And a very important one. Neither the landlords, nor those like me, who are against them, want to separate from Pakistan

3. Baluchistan Freedom: Have you ever been to Baluchistan? Most people in Pakistan havve never even been there. Do you long range analysis abilities now, also. How many people in Baluchistan want freedom? And from what? Whom are they fighting? Baluchistan has, by a gigantic margin, the least amount of military personnel of any province in the country. There is one paf base there, and one army staff college. If there was a freedom movement going on their, it would be soaking with govt. security forces, much like Kashmir is and Bangladesh was. Less than 1% of the Pakistan military is there. What kind of freedom movement are the controlling.

The current Prime Minister, is one of the bigger tribals from Baluchistan.

4. Shia Freedom: Are you seriously suggesinting that Shias want to separate from Pakistan. Give me a break. They want freedom from SSP and LeJ. Not from Pakistan.

5. Women and minorities: So all the women and minorities want to separate from Pakistan. That`s a new one.

In social movements, you could include freedom from illiteracy, freedom from poverty, freedom from lack of air-conditioning, freedom from poor slang of the Urdu language, also. These are going on in all countries, including India. We have historically always been around the same level on the Human Development Index of the world.

``Plenty of Kashmiris, Hindus and Muslims, in my circle of friends. Been there, too . . ``

But you are yourself not one. Are you? That is the big difference. Don`t speak for your circle of friends. Let them speak.

Vereesh #27: ``maybe you should also find time to touch the grassroots in Pakistan``

Yes, everyone should learn from grassroots. But it is a bit difficult to touch all the grassroots in twenty years or so that I have spent in Pakistan. I have lived amongst the grassroots of Punjab, NWFP, throughout my professional careers, and visited the grassroots of Kashmir. I have, though, unfortunately not had a chance to see the grassroots of Baluchistan and Sind. Even in a timespan of twenty years. This is why I find in amazing, that in your one (or two) week escapade into Pakistan, you have figured out the grassroots so quickly.

There is a difference between freedom movements and social movements. Freedom movements are based on separatin from a country, i.e. Indian freedom movement from British empire, Bangladesh from Pakistan etc. Social movements are to make a country better, from the inside, without wanting to separate from the country. In fact, social movements are exactly the opposite of freedom movements. They try to ensure that the country is so prosperous and humane that no one wants to leave it.

You seem to be confusing the two.

1. Freedom from military rule: This is not a freedom movement. People want good leadership. Personally speaking, I don`t think they are too bothered where it comes from. They certainly don`t want to separate from Pakistan.

2. Feudal Landlords: This is a social movement. And a very important one. Neither the landlords, nor those like me, who are against them, want to separate from Pakistan

3. Baluchistan Freedom: Have you ever been to Baluchistan? Most people in Pakistan havve never even been there. Do you long range analysis abilities now, also. How many people in Baluchistan want freedom? And from what? Whom are they fighting? Baluchistan has, by a gigantic margin, the least amount of military personnel of any province in the country. There is one paf base there, and one army staff college. If there was a freedom movement going on their, it would be soaking with govt. security forces, much like Kashmir is and Bangladesh was. Less than 1% of the Pakistan military is there. What kind of freedom movement are the controlling.

The current Prime Minister, is one of the bigger tribals from Baluchistan.

4. Shia Freedom: Are you seriously suggesinting that Shias want to separate from Pakistan. Give me a break. They want freedom from SSP and LeJ. Not from Pakistan.

5. Women and minorities: So all the women and minorities want to separate from Pakistan. That`s a new one.

In social movements, you could include freedom from illiteracy, freedom from poverty, freedom from lack of air-conditioning, freedom from poor slang of the Urdu language, also. These are going on in all countries, including India. We have historically always been around the same level on the Human Development Index of the world.

``Plenty of Kashmiris, Hindus and Muslims, in my circle of friends. Been there, too . . ``

But you are yourself not one. Are you? That is the big difference. Don`t speak for your circle of friends. Let them speak.

Vereesh #27: ``On status-quo and atut-ang, you tell me? From what I gather, the noises and sentiments are the same from Pakistan, too . . . and status quo as a means of deferring a decision, well, what else will work?``

You hear far too many noises. That is your problem. Many noises that are imginary. Pakistanis literally poured out their hearts for Indians, on the recent cricket match. Everyone from the President, to the Chief Minister, to the taxi-driver went out of their way to meet and greet. Do keep in mind that this is during a time, when there are a battle or two going on between Pakistan and India, and this is the same generation of Pakistanis who have seen India assist in breaking the country into two parts. The President and PM of Pakistan, have been saying they are willing to talk to India, anytime, anywhere for ages. The whole city of Islamabad was literally shut-down when Vajpayee visited, and not a single Pakistani complained. Every Indian (except you) seems to have been overwhelmed.

What more do you want?

Are you serioulsy suggesting that Pakistan is following the status quo. Pakistan has openly declared that it will give up on UN Resolutions, if India changes its long-held position also. UN Resolutions was the status quo. Pakistan has stopped actively supporting the militancy. That was the status quo. Now all the militancy in Kashmir is completely local (even the Indian govt. agrees). Pakistan has basically given up its claim on owning Kashmir, and has defered the decision completely to the Kashmiris. Which is how it should be?

If this is not a break from status quo, then what else is?

India has indicated that it will break the status quo also. Vajpayee had pretty much said it, without really saying it. BJP was talking to the APHC, which is a default way of recognizing it, as a representative of the Kashmiris. There were floaters about solutions, like autonomy, joint governance and so on. Thereby, subtly discounting status-quo atut-ang.

I think, as a first step, the battle at Siachen would have been stopped. India would have agreed to demilitarize it. After the BJP talks with APHC, APHC would have been allowed to talk with Pakistan. Pakistan had already moved away from UN Resolutions. India would have sublty agreed to a non-atut-ang solution, and that would have been announced through a meeting with APHC and India.

My guess is that the ultimate solution would have been Pakistan keeps its part of Kashmir (since all of us from there, want to be in Pakistan). India keeps all, or almost all, the Jammu and Ladakh area, since they generally want to be with India. And the valley of Kashmir, where the violence, gets some sort of autonomy or joint governance, which would be accepted by the APHC.

That is the peace I am talking about. And Pakistan and India are about as close to it now, as they ever have been. And ever maybe. Assuming people like yourself, don`t screw it up through you half-baked ill-informed articles......Indians have now finally gotten a chance to see the real Pakistan, and they have surprised that it is not the monsterland that journalists like yourself had painted it to be, for decades. Perhaps that is what scares you. And that is why you are again trying to pull out, imaginery ``freedom movements,`` and stutus-quo politics, from your bag of tricks......And hearing strange noises, which do not exist....

Lets see how many Indians listen to you, and how many don`t........

#35 was not mine. My post was as follows:
Mr. Shankar:
I was probably the first Indian on chowk who wanted this election result. So, I should rejoice at the outcome, and I do! But this happiness is not without a tinge of sorrow. How can one not feel sorry for the defeat of a man who, even in his hour of defeat, says, ``We have lost but India has won``?
And the NDA govt. did a lot for India. It gave its educated youth a sense of pride and self-confidence. He instilled in his countrymen the notion that they are inferior to no one and can compete with the rest of the world on an equal footing, instead of accepting shoddy products and services behind a protectionist wall to celebrate their mediocrity. It started the most ambitious infrastructural projects, which in due time will make transportation more efficient and connect the hinterland with the metros.
But this govt. was also leading the country towards a communal divide. It was dividing its citizens based on their religious identity. It did not mind condoning murders of its innocent citizens and rewriting history books to demonise a part of its own citizenry. It deserved to be defeated if India was to be saved from going down the slippery path of fascism and I am glad that it has been defeated.
It will take some time to find out exactly what were the factors that were responsible for the defeat of the NDA. But I am almost certain that the mulsim vote played a role in it. There are more than a hundred seats where the Muslims votes plays a significant role; I am inclined to think that they voted whoever they thought had the best chance of defeating the NDA candidate, even though it generally meant voting against a muslim candidate with a lower chance of winning.
I also think that the ``India Shining`` campaign contributed to the failure of the govt. It made those people who do not own cellphones or satellite TVs angry. And even for those with the cellphones and cars, what good are these if you can`t have access to drinking water and uninterrupted power, as was the case in even the posh colonies of New Delhi.
As I had said in an earlier article, the reform process started in 1992 has continued in India regardless of the govt. in power. And I dont think this is going to change much. This is not the first time that the left parties will be controlling the govt.; they did it before during the Deve Gowda and Gujral govts. and the reform continued. Yes, there are bound to be some hiccups here and there but the Caravan will carry on.

``What’s more problematic is the left’s attachment to the idea of the nation state, a concept that I have lots of trouble with.``
I do not know how much the Marxists are attached to the idea of a nation state. But if you dont believe in one, why should any Indian, or a Pakistani for that matter, give a damn about what you say or think, since you do not have the interest of the nation at heart?

Shankar

Very timely & interesting insights.

I have the same sentiments as Tehmed32 Post # 22.

Let Sonia become the Premier. If the people want her, so be it. Besides the politics, the rural folks also think in some simple terms that we educated do not - the image and chrishma of a pretty Italian of a European descent. And from a juddi-pushtee famous siasee family of India.

The poor man who tills the land does dream of a Goddess.

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Ref bharatvaasi #14

[Secularism in actions and results and not merely principles.....and a woman to top it all as the PM.
Hats off....to the great institution of Indian democracy......we should be looking up at it.
Even the US ( self professed champions in democracy) are yet to implement their secularism and minority representation in actions....not a woman president yet!]


Yea, yea, yea, I am getting fcuked in the butt and I am enjoying it!

sadna #29

``And the money to spend on stuff like housing, potable water and food will come from where?``

You expect an answer from the idiot?

Ref indiajourno #3

[... that fact that out of nearly 65 crore elible indians, we could not choose one indian born as our PM...it should atleast get us thinking...]

Should get you thinking about what is taught in schools, what you get to read in the so-called ``secular`` press, about who are the anti-nationals in India.

Ref bongdongs #2

[Sitaram Yechury says:
``An attempt to revive loss-making PSUs, should first be made, with possible private capital induction in a public-private joint venture, failing which it should be disposed after discussions with the management, the workers and the government.``
http://in.rediff.com/money/2004/may/14inter.htm

Commies live in a world of their own, as they have no experience in the ``real world``. Which industrialist in his rght mind is going to invest in a ``public-private`` partnership where the ministry will still call the shots?]

The Commies won`t even learn from attempts to privatize loss-making entities.

Remember the time when NOT ONE offer came forth to buy Air-India and we are still stuck with that crappy airline?

Shabash Hindusthan ! Jai Hind !

What a wonderful trouncing of a smug bunch of losers. Advani-ji, there is finally a limit to your two facedness. Murli Manohar Joshi, please hurry up and open your jyotishi practice in allahabad. Narendra Modi, tu to jahunnum me jaa !

Not that Ms. Gandhi and her brood are much better. Our left-wing friends are only one step behind Narendra Modi. Their minds are as uni-dimensional and fanatical as Mr. Togadia. Having lived in Jyoti Basu`s Calcutta in the 70`s, I am well aware of their love for political violence and vicious propaganda.

All that being said, these folks did win an election fair and square. And they know that unless they deliver to the common people, their behinds will be kicked in 2009.

That last part gives me real comfort. The masses seem much more energized and concerned about ``What is in it for me``? and NOT ``I will vote for the great leader``. This is real progress.

Romair 36 and previous . . .

1) agreed, every Indian was over-whelmed by the reception accorded to them by the Pakistanis, and so was I. Hands down. No two ways about that. And I could have written another funny one about kababs and booze.

But the complete motive of my trip changed at Old Delhi Station, if you read the first part, please?

Yes, the ethos that my guest is my honoured guest, even if s/he is my enemy, prevails in India too, so we are familiar with that. Believe me, Romair, you will, if you head for India, not find a better and more gracious host than me (I hope) . . . and that also means that I shall not argue with your point of view while you in India. You comprehend, Sir?

So where did I paint Pakistan as a ``monsterland`` then? (The fine dust on the Wagah-Lahore sector excepted, ofcourse . . .)

But this is The Chowk . . . so . . .

2) the big problem is where you say India assisted in breaking Pakistan into two parts. Did India send the Pakistan Army to East Bengal / East Pakistan / Bangladesh to kill Bengalis? No, the Pakistanis did it to themselves, and if Omar Quraishi is to be believed, than the Hamoodur (sp??) Report is top of the mind recall in all of Pakistan, so may I suggest you get a copy too?

3) On Baluchistan, that was my late father`s Regiment and there are still more than a few from there who are in touch with the family. If you think there is no Baluchi movement, for freedom, then maybe you really need to go walkabout.

4) On women in Pakistan, yes, social movement, sure, you want to think so, fine. I think you should meet some of the poorer women from Pakistan at free-to-air locations. Like on The Train. And take that as a representative sample of how many would rather live in a country where women are equal to men, or one where there is a Hudood Law.

And finally, am I a Kashmiri? Let me see, how do you and I define ``Kashmiri``, then? And please ensure that any definition of ``Kashmiri`` should, by rights, work for other communities using the format of that definition too.

pmishra

please send your narendra modi to narkh instead of jahanum. It is we who have the exclusive right to jahanum. We wouldn`t want modi to go in jahanum and start a genocide there and later win election over Satan ok. It is already a very troubled place.

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The results bought a rare smile on my face. I knew ``Shining India`` was a farce. Modern Indian channels like Zee, Star, Sony, etc., were a glaring example. I`ve visted India twice (as a collage student) in the `80s, and I knew the India being portrayed by these channels was not the India I saw. Had it changed so much? Naaaa. So the following is what sponteneously came out from my waiting mouth when I heard the results: ``BJP, free-marketeers, Gallup, IMF, economists, SUCK MY DICK!!``
I`m usually not that excitable, so these results must have been really good. And ``the left wave.`` Wonderful.

Ref dost-mittar #37

[#35 was not mine.]

It wasn`t? It was all finally falling into place. Romair claiming he had moved to Canada; you always claiming to have lived in Canada. Romair wanting to see Sonia as India`s prime minister in his interacts; you writing an article about it.

Here I was, thinking finally you managed to mishandle your multiple handles on Chowk and getting caught !

But we shall accept your word that you are not Romair.

You certainly are not that delusional!

;-)

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Ref nazarhayatkhan #38

[The poor man who tills the land does dream of a Goddess.]

In that case, let us make Aishwarya Rai the Prime Minister of India.... now, while she is still good-looking. Let us not wait for 30 more years, have her turn into a pot-bellied old witch and then have her run for Parliament!

wouldn`t it be great if sonia stepped aside and dr.manmohan singh nominated for the prime minister`s post???....

Ralph:

``And the money to spend on stuff like housing, potable water and food will come from where?``

You expect an answer from the idiot? ``



Touche. I am willing to bet that his ``workplace`` is the JNU registrar`s office or some such.

arjunm:
just for the record, I did not accept any free rides...and the driver who did offer one did so because he thought I was an outsider, not necessarily an Indian.

dm #37:

[...It made those people who do not own cellphones or satellite TVs angry. And even for those with the cellphones and cars, what good are these if you can`t have access to drinking water and uninterrupted power, as was the case in even the posh colonies of New Delhi...]

the people who worked hard and found ways to buy cellphones/cars would also have found ways to get uninterrupted water/electricity. everything takes time. one billion people can not become middle class all at once and within 5 years. the middle class increased signifcantly and the number of people below poverty line reduced significantly and the literacy rate increased in the last few years. when people point out that there are 300 million poor people in india, they forget that the number used to be at least twice that much few years ago.

just when people were realizing that the days of freeloading may be over, we have the congress/leftists back to reassure them that the `poor will be taken care of`. divestment is not the only `troubling` issue. look out for quota raj in private sector.

i wonder what would have happened if bjp had just 10 more seats.

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Funny how everyone wants to jump to the conclusion that the defeat of NDA is the rejection of Hindutva movement......

This is a rejection (rightly or wrongly) of the economic policies of BJP and it`s allies....

I wonder whether a farmer in drought prone area thinks about the rural policies of the government or its cultural policies....

Dilution of the actual agenda of Hindutva and promotion of Modi as a symbol of Hindutva had worsened the problem in North and West respectively....

arjun_m #51
It does not beat Karan Thapar who felt India has no case against Pakistan because his Lahore hosts served his friend an all-vegetarian lunch.

By that token, all Indians need to do is get Pakistani journalists over to India and serve them all-nonvegetarian kosher lunches. That will justify moving LOC a few hundred miles to the west, or supporting Sindh separatists.

Vereesh #45: I think you are scared. You genuinely want peace but I think you scared.

Because you want a peace, that is 100% percent according to the wishes and historical stands of India. And now you are begining to realize that Indians (and Pakistanis) may be willing to accept a peace that is a comprimise along the 50/50 accceptance of each other`s demand. This scares you . This is why you are talking of status quo, when everyone else is talking of compromise.

What will gained from status-quo? Can you tell me? Do you want to go back to 50 years of fighting? You are trying to suggest that Pakistan wants the status quo, when Pakistan has laid out all its cards on the table. Until it withdraws them, they are still there. It has agreed to everything India has asked for, from free trade to not supporting a militancy to dropping UN Resolutions. And I think India was (and I hope still is) willing to move away from its historical positions also.

There are probably very few, if anyone, on this site who has as much interaction with Indians and Pakistanis, on a combined basis, as I do. I have literally spent the last ten years with Indians. And I think I have learnt a lot more than you could have about the two peoples, in one brief trip.

I have been stating from times immemorial, on this site, that Indians need to just get a chance to see Pakistan. Since they know so little about it. Once they see it much of the brainwashing their press has done to them will go away. This is exactly what is happening, as we speak.

Other than on this site, every single Indian I have met (literally every single one) in person, has been a very decent person. I have openly stated this on this site. I have gone thru a lot with them, from cheating on exams together, to anxiously waiting for our work visas together, to going through the ups and downs of trying to take software companies public together - including one, right now, owned by an Indian guy.

I think, such experience, teaches different people about each other, far more than a one week trip to a few train stations. My list of invatations to India is five times as long as my list of invitations to Pakistan. If I were to just scream out right now, in my office, that I want to visit India, two or three Indians would give me their addresses, offering me a place to stay. I say this with all seriousness. So I do understand the hospitality of Indians. This is why I have always argued that Indians need to see Pakistan. Because I have faith in them, and in the fact that once they see it, their gaurd is bound to come down, and they will move away from the status quo. Which is exactly what is happening.

So I don`t know what you will gain by encouraging everyone to go back to the status quo. Don`t be scared of a compromised solution, in which India does not get 100% of what it wants. I doubt Pakistanis would ever agree to such a solution, regardless of who rules them - Army or civilians. Just like I doubt Indians will agree to one in which Pakistan gets 100% of what it wants.....

I presented a peaceful solution, which I think was (and I hope still is) going to take place on Kashmir. Could you highlight exactly what you find wrong with it? Would you agree to it, if Pakistan and Kashmiris agree to it?

Anirudhha,

``What ticked me off in the coverage of NDTV 24/7 (the English version) was
their constant reversion to the stock markets and their precious economic reforms.``

Please enlighten us with a list of things that you consider more important
than economic reforms. And if you are trying to pass this nonsense off as
political commentary of some sort, please stick to your dayjob.

AvKrishna,

And Hindutva would improve the lives of Indians how ?

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Ref dost-mittar #37

[But this govt. was also leading the country towards a communal divide. It was dividing its citizens based on their religious identity. It did not mind condoning murders of its innocent citizens and rewriting history books to demonise a part of its own citizenry. It deserved to be defeated if India was to be saved from going down the slippery path of fascism and I am glad that it has been defeated.]

So please tell us poor sods, what will the government do if tomorrow the VHP decides to march on to the mosque in Mathura right next to Krishna Janma Bhoomi and starts tearing it down? What is going to hold the VHP back, now that the BJP is no longer in power?

A government headed by a Roman Catholic is going to fire on Hindus? Hey, even Narasimha Rao didn`t dare do that in Ayodhya!

The RSS has already said that the BJP lost because it diluted the message of Hindutva.

I think the season on minorities has just begun - the hunting season.

As they said after Ayodhya, ``one down, 30,000 to go``.

Ref dost-mittar #37

[And even for those with the cellphones and cars, what good are these if you can`t have access to drinking water and uninterrupted power, as was the case in even the posh colonies of New Delhi.]

So, Mr. Dost-Mittar, if you don`t get a good supply of water in Ottawa, do you vote out Paul Martin in the next Parliamentary elections or would you look for a change of administration in City Hall?

In India, they re-elected Congress in the New Delhi capital metro area a few short months ago and they gave 6 out of 7 Parliament seats to the Congress.

So much for accountability in India.

Talked to some of my shining/whining relatives, most of who are urban, middle-class and partially shining and partially whining. Some voted for Govinda (ignoring Kamal) because he is young. Very unhappy thought to see Vajpayee go, but not distrubed unduly. Overall, this BS of garib folks and lower castes voting bjp out is just that, bs.

e.g. Stukas Delhi, Amchi Mumbai, Harimaus Chennai, and most major metros threw their weight/votes with congress. These alone would account for some 60 odd seats.

most of my middle-class, urban, middle class folks though have shined in past few years, have continually whined as well, specially at the loss of staple jobs such as those with nationalized banks and psus. so if anybody is to be blamed for bjp loss, its the PSMWUMC (partially shiny, mostly whiny, urban middle class). It seems that only nris were strong bjp supporters. and no, the vote had nothing to do with gujrath, gujrath is pretty much forgotten by others except the victims and the accused.

Your comment:
``Secularism in actions and results and not merely principles.....``

Definition of secularism from the random house college dictionary:

`` tendency of a political and social philosophy that rejects all forms of religious faiths.``

In the llight os the above definition, I ask this question:

Is India democratic? The answer is YES

BUT when I ask the question:

Is India Secular? then the answer is not quite simple.

Based on the definition of the word ``secularism`` from the random house college dictionary, when applied to any governemt, means that legislation, judiciary and ecective branches of the government should not even coem close to any religious idea when conducting business.

Now look at some contrasts between USA and India.

Just pull out a 100 rupee Indian note and look at the four faced (one face not visible) lion. To my understanding the Lion pertains to Hindu religion. NOW pull out a dollar bill and look closely. You will not find any relevance to any religion although USA is predominantly Christian.

Now look at the Indian Flag.

The Chakkar pertains to a Hindu king. Now look at the USA flag. You will not find any relevance to any religion.

And how come when I call the Indian consulate in USA I hear ``Namaskar.`` If India is secular then why not just Good Morning as in USA.

In fact in USA the famous ``Ten-Commanments`` plaque have been removed from many places by filing lawsuit in the supereme court of USA. There is a recent lawsuit which is trying to remove the word ``God`` from the pledge of alligience.

In USA you will find secularism at its best. Gay marraiges in USA are now legal since many constituancies voted for the measure and won. Try doing this in India!

So India might be a shining example of democracy but secularism is quite another thing.

As far as women and minority Presidents are concerned in USA, you will see one when people decided to vote for it.

Asfand

Will the last person leaving India please turn off the lights ?

well well well...sonia gandhi as PM of India! Guess Hindus like being ruled by foreigners!! :D
that was just a silly joke...

..i am quite surprised that they won (i remember when i asked what congress`s chances were a month or so ago on another board i was ridiculed for asking!) well guess what folks? it happened!

actually i think it is good for India. and definitely good for india`s image abroad. at least Congress claim to be secular although i am not one of those people who suddenly think everything will be hunky dory all of a sudden. still anything is better than those bjp fascists. if i was an indian i would definitely vote fo congress. the gandhis are educated and sophisticated. well bred and of good stock. khaandaanii. in the subcontinent that matters a lot to the average man. and from a religious perspective the Roman Catholic Sonia is at least Ahle Kitab and much closer to Islam than the pagans of the BJP.

as far as pakistan is concerned i don`t think there will be much change to the indo-pak peace movement.

of course you can bet that the bjp will, once again, become more extreme and more rabidly anti muslim/christian in opposition than when they were in power.


the best thing about this for india is that it shows india does have a real functioning democracy. that`s really admirable. hat`s off to hindustan for that. let`s hope we can have this in pakistan too...

btw is it common for indians to refer to india as hindustan? on star news yesterday i watched an interview with rahul gandhi who referred to india as hindustan and not bharat. might just be his UP roots...

Vereesh #45: ``the big problem is where you say India assisted in breaking Pakistan into two parts. Did India send the Pakistan Army to East Bengal / East Pakistan / Bangladesh to kill Bengalis? No, the Pakistanis did it to themselves,``

I was not placing primary blame on India. That blame goes on Pakistan. I was just pointing out that India assisted, which it did. Everyone accepts that. Didn`t Indira Gandhi insist it was India`s duty to get self-determination for Bangladeshis, and afterwards crossed the international border. If I am wrong, please do correct me.

I personally think Bangladeshis should have been independent. Unlike your lack of support for self-determination for Kashmir, I support Bangladeshi self-determination. So I have nothing agianst that. The aim was to point out that Pakistan has a lot of grudges against India, also, yet it is willing to move away from status quo. And Indians should do the same....

Interestingly you did not comment on Siachen.....

``On Baluchistan, that was my late father`s Regiment and there are still more than a few from there who are in touch with the family. If you think there is no Baluchi movement, for freedom, then maybe you really need to go walkabout.``

Baluchistan Regiment has about as much to do with Baluchistan, as Lyndi England has to do with England. In my whole military career, I met maybe five officers from Baluchistan. I worked with far more Christians than Baluchis. So I doubt you will find too many Baluchis in the Baluchistan Regiment.

In any case, assuming your freedom movement theory is correct, could you highlight whether the Baluchis are they trying to get freedom from sunnis, shias, military, poverty, of from Pakistan all together? And who is leading the Baluchi independence movement? Is PM Jamali a part of that movement? How is it being controlled? Is the Army deployed there in Baluchistan to control it? How many Baluchis are getting killed every day? What are the demands of this Baluchi independence movement? Is it supported by a majority of Baluchis? Why is Baluchistan the least militarized province in all of Pakistan, and maybe all of South Asia? Why did the Baluchi tribals recently get defeated in the elections by the MMA maulvis? Are the maulvis asking for an independent Baluchistan and an independent NWFP?

``On women in Pakistan, yes, social movement, sure, you want to think so, fine. I think you should meet some of the poorer women from Pakistan at free-to-air locations. Like on The Train. And take that as a representative sample of how many would rather live in a country where women are equal to men, or one where there is a Hudood Law.``

Are you seriously suggesting that women in Pakistan are asking to separate from Pakistan? Are you seriously suggesting that you have met more poor women from Pakistan, on a train, than I have through living in Pakistan? Not only women, but most men also, migrate out of Pakistan (and India) the moment they get the chance, for varoius reasons. Are they all involved in, ``freedom`` movements? India sends 10 times as many people to the USA as Pakistan. Do they all leave India, because of freedom movements?

``And finally, am I a Kashmiri? Let me see, how do you and I define ``Kashmiri``, then? And please ensure that any definition of ``Kashmiri`` should, by rights, work for other communities using the format of that definition too.``

Yes, a defintion should work for everyone. A Kashmiris is someone who has a domicile in Kashmir, and/or has a parent who is ethncally a Kashmiri. Its pretty easy to define. Based on this, I am neither a Pathan, nor a Tamil, nor a Baluchi. Similarly, I doubt you are a Kashmiri. If you are one, that is great also. You have a right to then, cast your vote on what you want Kashmir to be. And let everyone else cast theirs. If you aren`t one, then you need to mind your own business, and let them decide what they want to do, and listen to what they say, rather than become their spokesperson.....

P.S. If there actually is an imaginary Baluchi freedom struggle going on, which no one has realized enough to suppress, then I think Baluchis should decide what they want to do. Not you, nor I. Let them decide. If they want to be, ``free`` of Pakistan, then they should be allowed to be free. I apply the same rules everywhere.......

This was a shock to me. I really believed that the NDA would make it. After all India has never been more prosperous and stronger than it is right now. When I take a look at the distance we have come since 1998, it is quite astounding.

Having said the above, there certainly were many aspects of the Sangh Parivar that made my blood boil. Gujarat, saffronising of history and the futzing around with the IIMs. I happen to believe that Narendra Modi caused enormous damage to India and it was just a matter of time before payment would be extracted. I am absolutely elated that Murli Manohar Joshi got his butt handed to him.

Now that the correction has occured, I feel that some balance has been restored as far as India`s secular and Democratic traditions and practices are concerned. If the Congress can rule the country with basically centrist policies possible with a slight left slant, I will not be too unhappy.

I will support anyone who will largely continue the policies currently in place for the economy, external affairs, defense and infrastructure planning and development. I don`t see the direction changing radically since this direction was originally set by Congress governments and continued on and strengthened by subsequent non-cong governmants. Also, I believe congress was consulted and in many instances there was broadbased consensus between the ruling and the opposition parties as far as the above core sectors are concerned.

I also had another problem with the NDA governament and that was the age of the key leaders. I would like to think that Congress will bring in some fresh young people into the administration. I am very impressed with Jairam Ramesh. I hope we get to see lot more people like him come up. I see that SM Krishna is now free I wish he gets drafted to serve in the central cabinet.

Last but not least, BJP may not be ruling but is very much alive in the opposition. BJP is a far more powerful opposition party to Congress than the Congress ever was to the BJP. So, you can rest assured that they will keep Congress govt honest.

The people of India have spoken and we should all accept it and look to the future with hope and optimism.

Jay Thakeray - where the hell are you?

Someone go find Jay Thakeray. Every measly thing he stood for - booted out by the Indian voter. It is too dangerous to leave Jay by himself at a time like this...no arjun either I see. This is getting serious. What will become of all these chowk hindutvas now...homeless...disowned...

(background funeral drumbeat)

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Ref CoolAL #75

[I see that SM Krishna is now free I wish he gets drafted to serve in the central cabinet.]

SM Krishna refused to obey a direct order from the Supreme Court and you want him in the Central cabinet?

[The people of India have spoken...]

Indeed, the bastards have.

[.... and we should all accept it and look to the future with hope and optimism.]

When rape is inevitable, lie back and enjoy it.

Asfand #64,

``Just pull out a 100 rupee Indian note and look at the four faced (one face not
visible) lion. To my understanding the Lion pertains to Hindu religion. NOW pull
out a dollar bill and look closely. You will not find any relevance to any religion
although USA is predominantly Christian.``

Both the lion and the chakra in the Indian flag/bill context are from Emperor Ashoka,
if I remember correctly - not from any overt Hindu source. He was actually Buddhist.
You can find similar lion-faced ``stambha`` and inscriptions of Ashoka at the Pak-Afghan
border as well.

Perhaps you need to look more closely at the dollar bill. How could you possibly
miss the ``In God we trust`` part ?

#69 Romair
``You have a right to then, cast your vote on what you want Kashmir to be. And let everyone else cast theirs. If you aren`t one, then you need to mind your own business, and let them decide what they want to do, and listen to what they say, rather than become their spokesperson.....``
Well, that kind of referendum is unconstitutional (in India). If the constitution has to be altered, there is a democratic process for that too, and that includes the whole of India.

Asfand #64

{{To my understanding the Lion pertains to Hindu religion.}}

{{The Chakkar pertains to a Hindu king.}}

{{And how come when I call the Indian consulate in USA I hear ``Namaskar.``}}

Check out:

Caught In Between #347 on September 21, 2001

The Great Illusion #152 on March 29, 2002

This genius has asked the same dumbfounding questions about the ‘Hindu greeting’ namaste/namaskar and the Ashoka chakra at least twice before already. He was answered both times. He seems to be utterly incapable of learning, like some other distinguished savants from his country. Another outstanding product of Pakistan’s educational system …

Afsand

~~The Chakkar pertains to a Hindu king. Now look at the USA flag. You will not find any relevance to any religion~~

Try taking your feet out of your mouth before speaking. The insignia on the flags and notes are the stamps of ASOKA who was the ancient BUDDHIST Emperor of India and the relevancy of his iconography is the SECULAR temporal laws he instituted across his empire...perhaps the first attempts of such a kind in this landmass.

Seriously dude sort out your facts first because when you try to give a lecture and then come out with stupidity you end up looking stupid yourself.

cheerio

:-)

I thought that I had gotten over this, but I would be lying if I siad it did not bother me if Sonia became the PM.

Asfand #64,

How are ``Namaskar`` and ``chakra`` and 3 headed lion symbol (actually 4 headed but you don`t see the fourth one) Hindu? You seem to be finding Hindu symbols everywhere.

Paracha

India HAS changed since you last visited twenty years ago, and capitalism is doing very well there too...you really should have gone over along with that Junoon dude at least to see what is happening.


You are fighting old battles my friend.