Feeling Good

tahmed,

dude - where is the reference that sanctions were lifted against Pakiland after its nuke
explosions ?
You are a supporter of a dictator and now lecturing about democracy !
you are a bullshitter par excellence.

PS to AlephNull #91
I feel uncomfortable talking about individuals, so let me talk of my general experience here and elsewhere.

The commonality I draw between all such is `ideology`. If one has to keep reconciling the facts of real life with one`s dearly-held ideology, however sincere and decent one is, the contradictions between real life and ideology force one to fudge the truth, twist facts, lie outright develop selective deafness, even become pathological liars in some matters.


It comes to a point where a person`s sense of true and false is blurred to the extent, he/she begins to believe and defend creative interpretations of the truth as an article of faith even in the extreme.

Though one may be very reasonable in matters totally outside the ambit of ideology, within its ambit, dissent constitutes an attack on the whole belief system(hence is taken as `hate`),in a sort of mental seige.

And similar to the dynamics of religion, here too in the company of others of same belief system, the seige gets a more clear reinforcement/validation than anything in real life can offer.

If you look at a number of prominent Indian `leftist` inclined writers, you will see this same tendency to twist facts or outright lie or at least ignore totally what doesnot fit into their preconceived ideological world view. You will encounter the same thick shell whether you disagree with say Dilip DSouza or with say Rajeev Srinivasan.

Contrasts : Except for leftists, IMVHO, Indian ideological drones are generally johnny-come-latelys, they have been imbued in their respective ideology for only a number of years of their adult lives - so may be still reachable. Here we are often looking at a life time`s worth.

mohar #108 If this is indeed the season for renunciations, maybe I should get my head shaved, put on ashes and a sackcloth, and renounce further comment on those poor losers of BJP on chowk. :-)

I think INC will prove a major benefit to the Indian economy as well as to Indo-Pakistan relations (and therefore to Pakistan as well). That is, while retaining growth in the outsourcing business, they will correct the current imbalance in generate growth in agriculture. In Pakistan, they are projecting an increase in the GNP growth rate for Pakistan to 6% this year - and most of it is due to improvements in agriculture. This grass roots development has had secondary multiplier effects - yesterday I heard a Pakistani official say that they are expecting record sales in motorbikes to rural areas made possible by increased agricultural incomes.

It is too early to say how this will all impact on Pakistan - but from all indications, I think there is every reason to be optimistic. A secular India will be a great antidote to our BJP types (i.e. the religious and nationalist ideologues) within Pakistan.

#94 by AlephNull
#89 by AlephNull

I fear of sounding like a derelict….

I disagree with most posters on this site, I also agree with some posters some of the time and if I don’t agree with some at all, I just go ahead and skip their posts as their gems are beyond me. I am not even remotely suggesting that I am better than anybody. I am probably the worst poster on this site. I, too, find some discussions totally hilarious, yet, I am not going to obsessively follow those posters in order to teach them a thing or two about democracy or logic. I may not appreciate their lack of an ascending learning curve but I think, I still don’t have the right to obsessively make them come up to my standards and if they don’t, I wouldn’t hasten to make them an object of my scorn.

We talk about religion and how it has shaped people’s thought process. We scorn them for “religiously” saying things that don’t make sense, we may suggest deprogramming. We show them mirror time and time again and finally in our own frustration, attempt to put them down only because they fail to come up to our standards. It is easy to show mirror to others, it is easy to suggest deprogramming, and it easy to humble somebody for certain reasons. By doing all this, we are actually showing our own prejudices against people and are ourselves involved in a “religious” fervor to correct things.

We may have pulled the “revealed” or non revealed religion from our system. Strangely enough, While doing so, we may have created our own “religion” that stays in our mind and often we end up addressing people with the zeal of adherents of revealed religion.

Intellectual honesty is hard to achieve and a mere mortal like me, don’t even pretend to be intellectually honest. I am what I am. But if I vigorously preach intellectual honesty, I may need to look in the mirror often to see how honest I actually am in my discourse here or elsewhere.

soundmeister: you wrote ``Hence your repeated insinuation that every hindu here is a die-hard supporter of the BJP. ``

You are a liar. I have in fact often stressed the fact that every society - hindu or muslim or any else - has its fools and its normal people. If you wish to prove that you are not a liar, then cut and paste where I have made this insinuation.

I didnt read the rest of your post - why should I waste my time reading your lengthy post if you start of with a lie.

tahmed

Actually - BJP did come out looking sore loosers in this whole episode. But their protests were reflecting opinions of many Indians and hence it was a democratic expression - not an ``irresponsible`` behavior.

I think it was good that they protested strongly - if that contributed towards a good decision being taken by Sonia. At the end of the day - India got what it wanted and needed - a professional, capable, forward-looking administrator. Dr Singh is what India needs at this time.

Sonia too got what she needed - a wider acceptability and respect. Also she solidified her position in the party and a place for her children to take over later.

The outcome has made everybody happy.

Regarding Sushma`s theatrics - I don`t know which is worse : Her dramatics for Sonia NOT to be PM ...... or Congressmen`s wailing and begging for Sonia to be PM.

On a lighter side - Sushma`s threat to renunciate her hair is par course for the season. This is a season of renunciations.

rsridhar #95 I think we are in agreement on both points.

On Sonia Gandhi`s admirable response to BJP`s shenanigans, see my post #97 to mohar. Under the circumstances this was probably a wise move on her part and certainly took the wind out of the BJP party leaders. Manmohan Singh will no doubt prove to be a wise leader, just like Gujral and ABV were before him - except he will not suffer from the big drawback ABV had of being surrounded by fools like Advani and other BJP leaders or primitives like Modi in his party.

Like all chauvinist parties, BJP and its hindutva viewpoint are basically intellectually and morally bankrupt. As a practical matter, I think over time historians will increasingly see the BJP policies of upping the ante with Pakistan to have proved self-defeating - as I mentioned below on their nuclear explosions that have proved to be manna from heaven for Pakistan (a point I made below which infuriated some individuals here). :-)

Over time, I think it will also become increasingly clear over time that BJP was getting a free ride on economic growth generated by globalization. The other point BJP ran on (the peace initiative with Pakistan) was just as hollow a claim, since those peace movements had started before BJP, under Gujral. All BJP did was to delay further progress for several years until it was forced to come to the peace table - having failed to bully Pakistan with their nukes. Musharaff no doubt further delayed it by doing Kargill, but I am surprised to see no one looks at BJP`s failed policies and sorry record of bullying Pakistan that preceded the 1998 explosions. If it hadnt been for ABV, the peace movement would probably have stayed on ice until INC came back in power in India - and the continued confrontation would have cost India and Pakistan untold billions in lost economic progress and military expenditures.

omar_r_quraishi #102
``so sadna, u didnt tell us, what profession are u in? ``

I will not be telling you. I do not bring my private matters into every discussion with every aaya raam-gayaa raam online.

AlephNull #91
``Some of the Pakistanis seem perfectly ‘normal’ as well, most of the time – but there are others who repeatedly display traits that lie outside my common experience with Indians, and it is these that I want to decipher. ``

Having had a little experience(not a lot) of the home-grown variety of what you describe on that other site, it seems to me this is not wholly unique. I humbly suggest that you compare notes with Zafar.

Yes. Pakistan is feeling good. Well its congress time and its missile time in pakistan. I guess the blackmail has started again..........will the congress wilt and hand over Kashmir. The congress has to decide between being wnating to be obliterated by not handing Kahmir over and living to tell the tale.....

the news item:

Pak to test-fire 3500 km long-range missile in June


Friday, 21 May , 2004, 15:03

Pakistan is all set to test-fire on June 3 its new long-range ballistic missile Ghauri-III, which is capable of carrying a nuclear warhead and having a range of 3,500 km covering all major cities in India.
Discuss: Pakistan is asking for trouble!



The missile, which has a range of 3500 kilometres compared to the 2000-km Shaheen missile test fired in March, would be launched from the firing range near Nowshehra into the Arabian Sea, official sources were quoted as saying on Thursday.

Prime Minister Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali was informed of the details of the test when he visited the country`s premier nuclear installation Khan Research Laboratories (KRL) on Thursday, English daily The Nation reported.

It said, according to officials the missile could be tentatively test fired on June 3, close on the heels of a new government headed by Manmohan Singh assuming office in India.

Based on liquid fuel, Ghauri-III is a ground-to-ground ballistic missile. If test fired, Ghauri-III would be the second long-range missile developed by the KRL. It had test fired 2500-km range, Shaheen-II in March.

tahmed786- a lesson in Politics101

You are a classic case of a person who has never been exposed to the concept of democracy. Hence your repeated insinuation that every hindu here is a die-hard supporter of the BJP. Accepted that a lot of us voted for them, but the beauty of my country (as opposed to that sh1thole next door) is that while I can make a rational informed choice about who should govern me for the next 5 years, I am always at liberty to change my opinion next time around. And the fact that I voted for the beej doesn`t prevent me from welcoming a fine scholarly gentleman like Manmohan Singh to the PM`s post and giving him and his governement the respect they deserve.

I suppose it`s also pointless to try and explain to you that the likes of sushma swaraj and uma bharati are embarassments to themselves and civilised people everywhere, but are essential in any political party if it is to remain true to its electoral base, i.e. the masses. there are a lot of idiots in this country and one has to stay in touch with all of them. Vajapayee cannot address all the segments himself- he is the poster boy for people-like-us, as are jaswant singh, yeshwant sinha and the like (mooli manure joshi is a notable exception who is neither here nor there)- so the likes of modi, swaraj, uma bharati do it for him! we don`t like `em much- they cause riots and curfews and ban FTV, our favourite channel- but we accept that they have their place in this country and one has to live with `em.

So simple no? Maybe some day pakistan will have the guts to throw out their mullah-supported, military-backed ``rulers`` and elect themselves a government they can be proud of, love, hate, scream at, commend, be satisfied with, or get frustrated with. Till that day, take cheap potshots at india, hindus and the bjp, because there`s little else you can do really is there?

Re: rsridhar#95:
``Sonia Gandhi did India proud by renouncing her claim, something few politicians in India today are capable of doing.``

She did INDIA proud? Don`t you mean Italy :))))))

bad solution sadna

so sadna, u didnt tell us, what profession are u in? by the way manmohan singh was born in this village near dina/jhelum -- place called gah -- expect a story soon with pics in dawn soon

Alephnull: You are simply trying to make it appear that I dont know what I am saying while ignoring what I actually said. This is what I had said (in my post #56), and you can correct me if I am wrong - as long as you stick to what I have written below, and spare me further tirades directed towards me rather than towards I have written:

``1. Prior to the nuclear explosions, Pakistan was in the economic doghouse living under all sorts of sanctions. In the weeks and months following the explosions, the sanctions were steadily lifted. Thanks to BJP, Pakistan came in from out of the cold.

2. Throughout the 1990`s, prior to the nuclear explosions, BJP had followed an aggressive policy of confrontation with Pakistan. After the explosions: BJP suddenly discovered the virtues of peace with Pakistan. ``

Sadna #91

{{Not mass tonsuring to keep us from tearing our collective hair out, hopefully??}}

Oh no [Though my greatest regret on Sonia Gandhi’s refusal to assume the gaddi is that we won’t get to witness Sushma Swaraj tonsure, videographed for posterity, etc. I was rather looking forward to it.]

My brief answer is – try to understand why Tahmed thinks what he thinks, unravel the internal structure of his belief system. Don’t try to change his beliefs – they’re too tightly integrated into his worldview.

Questions to address:

(1) Is this at all interesting beyond the merely personal? Does it give any insight into the mentalities of people other than a specific subject, the dominant discourse of a class perhaps?
(2) Is this valuable when the beliefs in question are poorly thought-out, ill-founded, counterfactual? Especially valuable perhaps?
(3) What does one look for in a counterfactual belief system? Recurrent motifs, characteristic repeated patterns among these motifs, internal regularities? A glimpse of the deep internal processes and tensions that engender these?
(4) What subjects are likely to provide good insight? Requirements on the subject being prolific, generally honest/sincere according his lights, mostly not consciously engaging in agitprop, etc.?
(5) What utterances are most likely to provide insight? Those made under stress and in anger? Or those made repeatedly in an apparently un-self-conscious manner, as though completely natural?

My belief is that when you encounter a person with strongly counterfactual elements in his belief system, the reasons may run much deeper than simple dishonesty (though that is the likely explanation for some cases).

I’ve actually been doing something along these lines for a while, with a couple of the most prolific Chowk posters whose discourse I found displayed especially striking and unexpected features. Without disparaging anyone’s individuality, the Indians on Chowk – from arjun to rsridhar to stuka to the occasional hindutvavadi – are mostly somewhat recognizable types from my milieu, people I can understand and regard as ‘normal’ even if I disagree violently with them on some things. Some of the Pakistanis seem perfectly ‘normal’ as well, most of the time – but there are others who repeatedly display traits that lie outside my common experience with Indians, and it is these that I want to decipher.