Feeling Good

dear ms sarwar,
as a pakistani journalist, could you let me know what the reaction of the masses of your nation would be were a person of foreign origin to ascede to the top post in your land...just being inquisitive...

aman malik
india

[I can imagine her practically speechless with joy at the defeat of the communal forces that have for the last so many years held India hostage to their bigotry and violence.]

Communal forces? In the aftermath of Indira Gandhi`s assassination, thousands of Sikhs were massacred in Delhi (and elsewhere) by Congress supporters. The Gujarat violence simply pales in comparison. Jagdish Tytler and Sajjan Kumar, two Congress stalwarts were only recently acquited for their role in the genocide for lack of evidence. A dubious verdict indeed if there ever was one. Is it that it is a genocide only when the victims are Muslims?

Communal riots were a regular feature under Congress governments in Andhra Pradesh until NTR first came to power in 1983. Nobody then accused the Congress governments of being communal. I`m sure the BJP raises the hackles of some Indians and most Pakistanis for them to label the BJP as communal. Hypocrisy at it`s best.


[“The first thing the new government should do,” proclaimed my father, “is to establish a judicial commission of inquiry into the Gujarat massacres.”]

I don`t understand why most Pakistanis are so obsessed with what is essentially India`s internal problem. Other than the export of terrorism that has serious ramifications for India`s and indeed the World`s security, I don`t think Indians by and large are bothered about things like the daily killings of Shias, Karo Kari, feudalism, and the intra-state rivalry in Pakistan.


[The voters, Hindu and Muslim, have rejected their policies of divisiveness along communal lines.]

This verdict was about the benefits of a booming economy not percolating down to the poorest of the poor. If what you say is true, then Narendra Modi wouldn`t have won a landslide victory in the Gujarat assembly elections in the aftermath of the riots.

Certainly, you could have researched a bit more before proceeding to write. This is at best a blatantly ill-informed article.

true
the media did neglect a cpl of facts !
also these results have raised serious doubts over the credibility of exit/opinion polls.
do u feel that the supreme court`s reprimand of the gujarat govt hurt the bjp at least in gujrat ?

definitely feeling good....lets hope Sushma Suraj and her whole campaign against the `foreign` PM doesnt affcet anything within the new government. Thumbs up to Congress and a potentially improved Indo-Pak peace process.

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There is a common misperception among the people that the defeat of BJP has something to do with anit-Muslim incidents in India. BUT most of us forget the reason that made Vajapayee`s government a little optimistic about their expected. BJP govt expected a good harvest and a good harvest means a good rural vote bank. The asked for show of cards by basing all their calculation on this as a major factor. This was the reason that they called for elections 5 months in advance. The rural card fired back and Congress came out as other alternative winner.

I suppose it`s only natural for Pakis to rejoice that the ``fascist, Hindu-nationalist, Muslim-hating mass murderers`` are no longer in power. I also suppose it`s pointless to try and explain that the Congress is, if anything, even worse.

Indian politics is like that only. :)))

Hello Beena ji . . .you say . . .````I can imagine her practically speechless with joy at the defeat of the communal forces that have for the last so many years held India hostage to their bigotry and violence. ````

While I do not wish to comment about the speechlessness with joy therein, considering the simple fact that it was the goons from a Congress supported group that killed Safdar Hashmi decades ago, where and how did you get the assumption that India had been held hostage to bigotry and violence for the last so many years? Would you wish to please support this with some data, please?

Interim, would you also like to get hold of some facts on how the Leftists win and then usurp democracy for the last so many years, worldwide?

Interim, haven`t heard from you about the violence by Arabs against black people (Muslims all?) in Sudan? What are the lessons we need to learn from this, Beena ji?

This article illustrates a kind of mindless naivete about the situation in India and the arrogant belief that the left-wing forces are always progressive.

They are NOT. Without the constraints of democracy and media and the marketplace, the left-wing is as poisonous, vindictive, violent and narrow minded as Togadia or Modi. The Congress Party includes today people like Jagdsih Tytler and Sajjan Kumar, both of whom participated in the murder of Sikhs in 1984. It also includes the hatemongering communalist Syed Shahbuddin who has carefully used the Babri Masjid controversy to nurture his career. Mr. Shahbuddin`s outputs include the belief of ``natural superiority of islam`` and complete unconcern for the fact that female literacy in his constituency is under 10% amongst muslims. But as he is left-wing he must be A-OK, right??

Meanwhile the stock markets have crashed heavily because of complete chaos and stupid mistatements by ``progressive leftists``. One of these fools was ranting about the IMF and Word Bank without even realizing that India moved beyond these institutions 10 years ago! Talk about living in a fantasy world !

With incompetence of this kind, the indian public will happily re-elect Narendra Modi and Togadia within 2 years.

This is what makes me sick. There is absolutely no understanding of India, its problems, or its politics. Only the most simplistic, even barbaric, gang-mentality of Islamic thuggery and its outdated desert-tribalism. Anyone who falls within the gang is beyond reproach. Anyone who dares to make them accountable is automatically labeled bigotted, Hitler, Milosovich, fascist.

With this level of understanding, what kind of political analysis can one expect?

indiajourno/aman:

are you serious? ... as in serious student or serious journalist?

as a pakistani journalist, could you let me know what the reaction of the masses of your nation would be were a person of foreign origin to ascede to the top post in your land...just being inquisitive...

...here is an update in case you missed it all along;)

...the top post in pakistan is occupied by a puppet...since oh about 1956...with brief periods of omission...the strings of the puppet were maneuvered from 1600 pennsylvania...and other beltway bandits...

...the puppeteer minds not if the puppets wear sherwani, flak jacket or duppatta...hope this recollection from politics 101 helps:)

rgds,

t

sir veeru:

what this this diversionary obsession with sudan...lay off...you know well enough there is no such bird called ummah ;)

They all look the same to me, I don`t understand the the reason for such hue and cry.

temporal

good reply. One of these puppet ``Prime Minister`` Moin Quereshi (the Challabi of Pak?) even held American passport. I think all others hold that too but don`t show. They all look the same to me.

On the other hand, have you noticed how sore losers these hindu religious nuts are?Why drag Pakistanis and Muslims into their internal defeat? Pakistan on the other hand even fixed up cricket matches to give these nutjobs a boost in the election, not to mention getting into SAFTA and other non-sense, but they are angry with us for their defeat? Strange folks they are, these hindu people.

Well written Beena, as always.

However, is it not premature to conclude that the change has come for the better? Acts of violence and bigotry have been committed all along regardless of who pretends to be in power.

Defeat of BJP to Congress merely leads to change of faces and words, but does it really change anything thats worth changing? Will the condition of ordinary muslims and other minorities improve? I don`t think so.

It is useless to even try to explain anything about borderline commie congress to any of the idiot Pakis posting here as if they hold PhDs in Indian economy. Obviously, their main motivation for liking the Indian election results is their hatred for BJP than their utterly pretentious ``this is great for Indian economy`` BullSht.

#13.to the typical arrogant paki..fixed up cricket matches...please don`t let this column also go the way of the others....india won the series fair and square...as far as SAFTA , if u don`t like it don;t belong...let the rest of the region progress...simple....we are the world`s largest democracy...we are proud of it and even though we may not like those who get elected we eventually bite the bullet and give them their due...we accepted Gujral and Deve Gowda as our prime minister even though no one knew who they were outside their spheres of influence....both countries suffer from many of the same problems...hindu people??...india is a secular state and there are more citizens who are muslims than in pakistan...we might have flare-ups every now and then, like in any family, but they are quckly quelled by sane,middle of the road forces, to maintain stability...india is the fourth largest economy in the world in terms of purchasing power parity and the 12th in terms of GDP and is respected and admired by everyone except ofcourse, pakistan..surprise???...sore losers.

Worth repeating :
``The very thought of Indian issues being given the standard `Pakistani elite` pious `we-can`t-handle-complexities-but-oh-we-are-so-liberal-disagree-with-us-and-be-labelled-hindoo-extremist` treatment gives me the heebie-jeebies.``


Re hostile government policy towards farmers. India along with Brazil took the lead of developing countries last year in the WTO/GATT in blocking Western demands to open their agriculture markets because it will hurt Indian farmers. Do you know a whole lot of other things like the mechanism of government support prices and agricultural income tax, before making the above statement?

The governments were apathetic to the situation with debt-ridden and drought-ridden farmers - this was true of all governments, not just the BJP-supported ones. The Congress decision to provide free electricity will not help this situation. It requires crop insurance, storage facilities, better crop planning, proper marketing and transport facilities, farmers cooperatives.

The question is, how are those things ever going to happen. Those are unprincipled politicians offering freebies mindlessly, and here we cannot expect even educated thoughtful commentators to spend two minutes thinking before writing.

In a mature democracy like India, chances of people using their votes to show their displeasure at incumbents should not be a cause of so much emotive outpouring. Political parties win some and lose some.

BJP has not lost by much but it has lost because in reality it ran a negative campaign.

1. Throughout the election campaign BJP and its allies continually went after Sonia and her being Foreign born. They never attacked Congress on its record of 40 years at the helm.
2. The BJP used its developing relationship with Pakistan to woo Muslims votes. BJP almost brought Musharaf into Indian Elections. BJP had always denounced the Congress for its minority appeasement policy but right at elections, BJP took a step further and tried to use Pakistan to get Muslim votes. That must have turned off lots of majority and minority voters. This was out and out opportunistic policy and an election gambit that backfired.
3. While the BJP was wooing Muslims, Advani and Modi were taking out “Ruth Yatra” in all major Indian cities. This was to woo their core support group.

The BJP was playing on both sides of the wicket.

4. BJP never announced any new economic initiative before the elections.
5. BJP failed to sense voters mood. Indian Shinning had fizzled out in early April but BJP never tried to revive or replace it with some new initiative.

After Elections.

The BJP is showing signs that the defeat is not acceptable and has bought its own negative propaganda.

BSE and Index loss is not something out of this world.
Indian foreign exchange reserve jumped from $100b to $117b in less than 45 days time. That only meant that lots of speculative money was pouring into the Indian stock market and its pulling out now for obvious reason that the political climate in India is a little shaky at this time but as things start to settle down this money will come back. With stock markets all over the world down or stagnant, there is lots of investment capital out there and that money will come back to India.
Next you will hear that the Indian Foreign Exchange reserves are down. But they too will be down temporarily.
Our erstwhile India friends need to look at where Index was a year ago and where it stand today and they will not find much difference.

My Dear Hindu Friend Niranjan,

My question was simple: Why are you people so pissed at us for your defeat? We didn`t cause it. It is your own doing. I am surprised that despite being a banya you do not realize that it is nothing else but ``Purchasing Power Parity`` based marketing by MNCs in your country that has caused the defeat of religious nuts in election. Once you begin to understand what PPP marketing is, not only you will understand why you lost, but also may thank kaali mata that Congress have won. Unless of course, these socialists, like our Peoples Party have also made a pact with devil already. My friend, these fragrent toilet soaps and these tooth pastes that promise to sparkle your teeth, which you have only now begin to realize that they existed, we always had them. What you call as your `economic reform`, we had been through it about 30 years ago. The TV quiz shows where shekhar gives out car as prizes, we had them 30 years ago. By mid 70s, a time came when such shows in Pakistan were giving out six cars at a time to a winner and people didn`t want to see the shows. Please don`t drag us into something, which we have nothing to do with. My request is simple.

Pakistan can forget about any progress in talks with India. Tthe foreign born PM has never taken a major policy step in her infantile political career and she will not do so now.

Beena:
Your analysis is somewhat superficial. You might do well to visit the two other boards discussing this issue.

HP#19:
You are quite on the mark. The NDA made a big mistake by not sticking with the theme of economic development and the dismal record of the earlier Congress govts. India Shining campaign was too early; its effect had already fizzled out by the time of the election; jokes mocking the campaign were more common.
But give credit where the credit is due; Sonia picked her allies carefully and they turned out to be winners; BJP picked losers and lost alongwith them.

Malyck: Dude, you are one smart guy. And I am completely serious.

Could someone point out why we have a weekly columnist, or should I say twice a weekly columnist who never bothers to respond to any of the comments made? Is it that, to borrow from sadna, if i may that `oh-we-are-so-liberal-disagree-with-us-and-be-labelled-hindoo-extremist` attitude too good for the rest of us?

Before you begin feeling really really good, you might really really want to look at the larger picture, which you don`t seem to be looking at, but then again, lens narrow ho to kya kiya jai?

to my muslim friend urstruly from your christian friend niranjan,

Don`t equate India and pakistan.They are not equal.I actually prefer the BJP but what am i gonna do man.The people have spoken man.i was in india last month and i was sickened while watching those shining india promos on tv.Again, what are we gonna do..time and agin we have had elected govts. that bow to the will of the people.feeling jealous.So now we have a roman catholic queen and i`m fine with that.But stop equating india and pakistan man....you guys should just keep your american masters happy and keep singing for your butter, or there won`t be none...

#19 by Urstruly on May 17, 2004 11:10am PT

[My friend, these fragrent toilet soaps and these tooth pastes that promise to sparkle your teeth, which you have only now begin to realize that they existed, we always had them. What you call as your `economic reform`, we had been through it about 30 years ago. The TV quiz shows where shekhar gives out car as prizes, we had them 30 years ago. By mid 70s, a time came when such shows in Pakistan were giving out six cars at a time to a winner and people didn`t want to see the shows.]

Oh yeah, that`s perhaps why Pakistan is 30 years ahead of India. Or is it 30 years behind?

temporal -- he means an actual foreigner -- i think the case of jemima would be a more apt example -- and as for veeresh sahib and his diversions, about time someone else noticed them too -- veeresh ji -- apnay questions acha hee ho ga agar mut poochain -- i think beena is being sensible by not responding to you -- i think there`s a lesson in that for all of us .. hahaha

inquilabi -- one reason for that is that these articles are actually columns which appear in the news on sunday and chowk reproduces them here -- a footnote to these columns should say that -- second, i suppose, inquilabi, is that the writer is quite a busy individual --but then we all are -- but probably knows that if she begins responding she will get stuck in a sea of argument

re: #13 by Urstruly
Hey Mullahji,
I notice you are back from Guantanama Bay. How was it man? Did they sodomise u there?
Sridhar

stuka #20 Gujral had in fact developed excellent personal rapport with Nawaz Sharif. BJP in fact tried to turn the clock with their stupid nuclear bomb explosions. It was pakistan`s response that stopped Advani and his gloating dead in his tracks that brought BJP to the peace table. I am amazed that such simple facts of recent history are forgotten and BJP credited with things it`s policies had nothing to do with.

I wonder if the irresponsible behavior of senior BJP politicians in saying they will boycott the swearing in of Sonia Gandhi will go similarly unnoticed by the BJP followers: this indicates they have no respect for the constitutional process and no respect for the will of the majority of the people. BJP is no better than our mullah parties - they are OK with democracy as long as they are the government in power. Vajpayee has been left sitting high and dry by Advani and his goons - and I hope for Vajpayee`s sake that he openly condemns this irresponsible behavior of BJP and resign from this racist, petty minded party.

omar_r_qureishi #various
Just a couple of questions.
1. I can understand military dictators doing so, but how can journalists too demand credibility be granted to them as a right and privilege? I thought journalists had to earn it.

2. In your knowledge, do children in Pakistan in general grow up with no one disagreeing with them on anything from babyhood to adulthood? This is a genuine question.

T-Bhai, if you had been to Sudan (Khartoum, what a place boss, and if people really knew about Islamic heritage and wonders, they would understand what some of us mean when we appreciate and celebrate the facts that there are Islamic and Hindu and Buddhist aspects and components to all of us from the sub-Continent. I think Cementdaur has been there. I took the trouble to go from Djibouti to Khartoum a long time ago . . . and if I get the opportunity, would do so again, but via Addis Ababa and the Blue Nile, if possible), you would understand why I am asking Beena/Omar in Pakistan on where their coverage is on the subject? Do we forget so soon, in one generation, the relevance of these places and their people, to us?

Omar Quraishi ji . . . good to note that apart from answering on behalf of Dawn, you are now also answering for Beena Sarwar. I`ve caught you short so many times on this website, that I`ve lost count.

I understand your position, as an editor of a particular sort, when readers start asking uncomfortable questions. I unerstand, Omar ji, I understand, we all read Lewis Carroll, ``Off With Their Heads``, but did you have to stop there? May I suggest you get hold of a copy of ``Manufacturing Consent`` by Noam Chomsky, and read it again, please?

#30 by tahmed32 on May 17, 2004 10:07pm PT

[BJP in fact tried to turn the clock with their stupid nuclear bomb explosions. It was pakistan`s response that stopped Advani and his gloating dead in his tracks that brought BJP to the peace table.]

If what you say is true, then we wouldn`t have seen the largest ever mobilization of Indian troops following the attack on the Parliament in December 2001. That the two countries did not go to war is an another story, but if the BJP was so spooked by Pakistan`s nukes, why would have it mobilized the troops in the first place even as General Musharraf was threatening to unleash them on India?

[I wonder if the irresponsible behavior of senior BJP politicians in saying they will boycott the swearing in of Sonia Gandhi will go similarly unnoticed by the BJP followers: this indicates they have no respect for the constitutional process and no respect for the will of the majority of the people. BJP is no better than our mullah parties - they are OK with democracy as long as they are the government in power.]

You`re comparing apples with rotten eggs :-) In deciding to boycott Sonia`s swearing-in, the BJP may have been morally wrong, but is perfectly well within its democratic rights. If as you say the BJP has no respect for the constitutional process, it could have easily resorted to horse-trading and other dirty tricks (which is usually a regular feature after any election in India) to retain power.

Rise of psychophancy,

Sonia who has no moorings in the indian cultural meleu is propped up by the illiterate sof the cow belt in the hope that they can have their field day in corruption. It is the rise of psychophancy, the one who is ready to be the obedient servants of the so called leader will rise to power in this situation. Son of sonia is expected to become the congress secretary, at last the fools and incompetant of india has come to power.

May be like the pakistanis, who always claim that they are fair skinned and hence superior have found a match, the like minded indians from the cow belt have put a genuine white as the leader. Can pakis match that.

BJP loses because of their adherence to the TNT-

Read my earlier prognosis regarding TNT being the real cause of BJP`s downfall. I had predicted that ABV would be retiring and Joshi would also lose. Advani kept his set because he was standing from a ``safe`` seat- My thesis is that it is due to their vulgar (read TNT) understanding of the aspirations and sentiments of the non-Hindu minorities that they have lost this time:


````#23 My Pakistan Diary: Lahore Aaya Main Othay Dil Chhod Aaya! on April 29, 2004
#208 by vertex on April 28, 2004 9:20pm PT

..............Any way, read this editorial form TOI in order to understand why ABV would be retiring soon...............and why Advani and Murli Joshis would be losing the elections due to their stupid understanding of IMs and their adherence to the TNT....... ````

veeresh bhai, the daily times actually referred to people like you in one of their recent editorials -- hope u didnt miss it, in case you did, here it :
Please read the first paragraph, third sentence carefully -- i think it`s you --


EDITORIAL: ‘Ungrateful Indian guests’

There is lot of anger in the columns of the Pakistani press about the ‘ungrateful’ Indians who came to watch cricket in Pakistan. All this is being attributed to a special issue by one of India’s weekly magazines which carried a story detailing the lives and activities of Pakistan’s upper crust. It appears that the journalists who wrote up the issue were more interested in the moral well-being of Pakistani society than in watching cricket and enjoying the extraordinary hospitality shown them here or even in comparing it with moral standards in their own country.

The popular press in Lahore has gone to town over the story. One editorial has reprimanded all those who welcomed the Indians and has abused a local hostess-writer. The magma of hatred, barely controlled by our India-haters, has come pouring out. The earlier rumours that most Indians came to Lahore, not to watch cricket but to sell goods, including gold, in Lahore’s black market have been recycled for fresh use. It was propagated at the time of the cricket series that Indian cricket-lovers had sold contraband goods worth Rs 3 billion, including ashes of cremated bodies for the sorcerers of Pakistan! Now of course the story has given more ammunition to the cleric in Pakistan to not only call for taking to task the morally bankrupt upper society but put a stop to people-to-people contact between India and Pakistan. The mullahs are already calling for ‘kowras’ (whip-lashings) on the backsides of those who thought of staging a cricket series with India and those who opened their hearts to the visiting Indians and offered them hospitality.

An ARY TV channel discussion Friday focussed on relations with India and the audience supported peace with India but said ‘no’ to cultural relations with it. The average Pakistani is infuriated by the story, its pictures blazoned on the first pages of the Urdu newspapers. Of course one has to be careful and not get carried away. The story is not representative of all the opinion in the Indian press. It would be wrong to ignore the positive and well-meaning articles written by Indian journalists and mount a collective attack from the Pakistani press on the basis of just one such story. That would be a major distortion of reality. And it would defeat the purpose of bringing Indians and Pakistanis together in order to ease the more complicated government-to-government relations. But it is appropriate to examine the psyche that presides over the factories of prejudice and hatred on both sides of the border.

What has been repeated in the story is an old pitfall that the Indians need to avoid while visiting Pakistan. At the behavioural level, it starts with surprise. (This also happens to many Americans and Europeans visiting Pakistan for the first time.) Instead of seeing a fundamentalist society beating up women for not wearing the veil and sending ‘wine-drinkers’ to jail like the Taliban, they see people living more or less like Indians back home where too some ‘dry’ states drink themselves silly without being punished. But the trouble with the critical Indian is that, unwittingly, he/she puts on the mantle of the unforgiving, sanctimonious Pakistani moaning about his sinning compatriots. He refuses to change his pre-formed view of Pakistani society. He is actually resentful that his definition of Pakistan is challenged by reality. He is always more comfortable with his own definition of the ‘other’ in life because that indirectly defines his own identity.

We in Pakistan should not fall to the easy temptation of retaliating against this attitude. Being in denial will not dissociate from us our Dionysian side, the not-so-controllable creative aspect of a putatively ideological society. What happens in Lahore and Karachi happens in New Delhi and Dhaka too. There is no dearth of negative piety-opinion in Pakistan about the sleazy goings-on in the Indian entertainment world. But we would be wrong if we concocted something like this about the goings-on in Bombay or Delhi. That would be a small thing to do. Let us ask our Indian guests to accept our reality the same way we are ready to accept theirs.

The truth of the matter is that 99 percent of the people on both sides have lived less-than-satisfactory lives in the last half century because India and Pakistan have cared more for fighting useless wars than for the well-being of their masses. Leaving the chattering classes aside for a while, there is no denying that both peoples would like the two states to live in peace and, if possible, in a cooperative, mutually profitable mode. The governments in New Delhi and Islamabad are on the verge of achieving the kind of bilateral relationship that the world wants for them. Let us not help the spoilers on both sides to win the day by derailing this process in a fit of anger. We have seen what such emotions and outlook have wrought during the wasted years of Indo-Pak hostility. *

from an (asst.) editor `of sorts` to a writer `of sorts` -- oh my god now that veeresh ji has `caught me short so many times on this website` what am i going to do now??? -- oh no, now my whole world is coming to an end now that the wise sage has not approved of me and my posts -- actually yes veeresh ji, beena is a friend and a worthy member of Pakistan`s journalist community -- and she doesnt have to prove her credentials to anyone, least of all to doubting Thomases like you -- how about you write your memoirs or philosophy of life veeresh ji, and we can call the book `Me, myself and I`?

sadna -- your first question would have to be addressed to the person who said that journalists demand credibility -- if you`re implying by your question whether a writer like the one who wrote this piece should earn credibility, then she has earned more than her fair share of it, trust me she is the last person who would demand it -- she`s the founding editor of the news on sunday, which made a huge difference to coverage of social issues --

as for your second question sadna -- i dont believe they do but i suppose you would have to ask a child psychologist or paediatrician -- why, does that happen in india? Do you think in your knowledge, children in India in general grow up with no one disagreeing with them on anything from babyhood to adulthood?

By the way, sadna, when is a question not genuine?

Omar ji 35 - another question, as an editor/writer/journalist, do you think you have the option to write what you think may be the facts of the case, or would you like to check up on facts please?

The Daily Times article speaks about a cover issue by Outlook on Pakistan, which, just by the way, was already on the stalls when I went to Pakistan. Matter of fact, I carried a few copies for people who asked for it in Lahore and I`Bad. So did the Multan journos I met. In any case, I didn`t see many other people from the ``burger class`` in Pakistan denying the reportage therein, so what are you getting so hyper about, Sir?

It may be a fact of life for some people to accept that journalism = ``enjoying extraordinary hospitality.`` I, personally, don`t think that is journalism. I know most journalists in India pay their own way too. The kind of journalists I met, from the Urdu media in Pakistan, who you choose to taunt, were of the sort who had paid for their tickets and were therefore on the train. That just leaves, uhhhhmmm, well, a certain sort of journalist who writes basis the ``extraordinary hospitality`` s/he enjoys. Anybody you can recognise, Omar ji?

To me, specifically, visiting Pakistan is like Ireland would be to a visiting Irish American. My forefathers left for reasons valid enough in those days, this does not prevent me from visiting and observing what I see, and writing about it. You think it is untrue, prove it. But that does not detract me from my purpose.

Matter of fact, I am probably in Pakistan again in a few weeks, Pindi & Multan & Karachi, and shall invite you to open the bonnet of a Varan Hino-Pak bus with me, in case that interests you. I am sure we all know who owns Varan transport, so I presume that can be organised, too, by you. After that, you can take a ride on the lovely Lahore-Wagah Railway Line to discover a few truths about ``extraordinary hospitality``.

OK, I admit that I don`t get it. I still don`t get it why Hindu religious nuts are pissed at Pakistanis and Muslims for their loss in election. Are you guys preparing a case for another Gujrat like genocide of Muslims for punishing them for voting for Congress instead of you? Or is it just a simple case of, as our proverb goes, Khisiani billi khamba noche. Could some decent Hindu please answer my questions without attacking my religion and my country. I totally understand your feelings for loss of power, but why drag Pakistan into into it?

Thank you in advance for being courteous and decent. ( Don`t waste my thank you pl.).

omar_quraishi #34
The reason I asked the first question is that you seem to demand that readers take every thing a journalist writes to be gospel truth. Unfortunately in this case at least, Indians have access to alternate truths too.


The reason I asked the second question is because not only some posters but even certain columnists in well-known newspapers take valid disagreement very personally. Valid points made by disagreeing party are never properly addressed, because the response is of the rhetorical variety `oh so you claim to be perfect, so you are bashing me/us, trust me you are not perfect,etc`, a bit like a small child who is on the edge of bursting into tears and drowning out the opposition with his wails :).

harish Hyd: The first time BJP tried to bully Pakistan, Pakistan demonstrated it had the bombs. The next time BJP tried it, Pakistan demonstrated it had the delivery capability as well as the intention to use it in case of war. BJP extremists` (under Advani) desire to overrun and humiliate Pakistan was so great that they needed to learn two separate lessons before they got the point. So, I stand corrected, and it took two lessons, not one, before Advani and his followers got the point. ;-)

It is not that BJP leaders are doing anything illegal in boycotting the swearing in - as members of India`s national assembly, they have a responsibility to demonstrate respect for the constitution. While I admire India`s 50 years of unbroken democracy, and hope that it flourishes (not just for the sake of the Indians, but for the sake of the whole world), the fact remains that you cannot take democracy for granted (as we Pakistanis sadly know all too well). The Weimar regime in Germany laster several years, until the Nazis came to power through the democratic process. Which they then proceeded to subvert. The same can happen in India. The BJP is no different from the religious parties in this regard.

tahmed,

Dude, Indians knew by the mid-to-late 80`s the Pakis had the nukes. If you had read
the Indian press then you would have known. What the BJP did was to smoke the
Pakis out and get their capability out in the open. Look what happened next !
Who was able to withstand the sanctions ?

The action by the BJP was one of the shrewdest foreign policy moves by the Indian
Govt, since 1971. The Pakistani cover was blown and the world actually became
safer because the P*kis could not continue covertly.

I do realize that your P*ki education is a handicap that prevents you from rational
thinking. But I suppose that years of living in the West has still not not thought you
to become rational. You live in your own delusions.

Urstruly:
Nobody answered your question because the premise was erroneous. How many Indian newspapers or even chowkies are blaming Pakistanis for the loss of the NDA? People who are whining at the results of the elections are those who are part of the `India shining` and are naturally upset at their defeat.
Not too many Indians are blaming Indian Muslims either. But they can rightly take credit/blame for contributing to the defeat of the NDA. Muslim vote constitutes 20 % or more in over 100 constituencies. They refused to be trapped by BJP`s crocodile tears or to lump them with Pakistanis and voted strategically to defeat the NDA candidates wherever they could.
Does that help?

Various posts by tahmed32 & Mullah Urstruly,

Hey, didn`t I advice one of you religion nuts to stick to posting about things that you REALLY know. You never lived under BJP rule, never lived under congress rule.... so stop sermonizing us about them with your stupid religion talk.

Not everybody who supports BJP is a stupid religious nut. For example, I am from a backward caste family and far from being an ultra-religious Brahmin nut. Got that? Majority of voters are more concerned about economy than anything else. Unlike the way that you might be imagining, people did not vote out NDA because they disliked gujarat episode. People voted it out because they suddenly developed lot of love for Commie socialist economic policies. The low class stupid idiots are thinking that commies are somehow going to make milk and honey flow in the land of stupidity. So, as far as they are concerned you and your religion can go to hell.

It`s the economy STUPID. And it`s about stupid people deciding how to get there.

#40, 41
Not again please! Please look back AlephNull and my interacts with TAhmed, there is noting left to say.

satyamvada #42 I have had these discussions with your kind on chowk, and am not prepared to waste more time going over the same thing with you now. Bye Bye.

tahmed32,

Atleast you have learned to run away from any factual argument.
That is the first sign of improvement, from your current denial stage.
You will one day learn to accept facts and become rational. Work on it.

#42 by dost-mittar on May 18, 2004 2:45pm PT

I think it is time those guys who talk in a patronizing tone to the IM to realize that their fantasies of being the light and guide to the Ummah or even the IM has been shred to pieces by us voting BJP out of power- and look at these guys across the borders who watch us helplessly at their incapability to even decide their fate in their pure land!!!

#40 by tahmed32 on May 18, 2004 9:58am PT

[The first time BJP tried to bully Pakistan, Pakistan demonstrated it had the bombs. The next time BJP tried it, Pakistan demonstrated it had the delivery capability as well as the intention to use it in case of war. BJP extremists` (under Advani) desire to overrun and humiliate Pakistan was so great that they needed to learn two separate lessons before they got the point.]

You got it all wrong. As satyamvada put it, India`s nuclear explosions forced Pakistan to come out in the open and stand exposed. Post 9/11, the world has begun to dread a very likely scenario in which Paki nukes get into the hands of Al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations. Also note that a couple of nuclear scientists (Sultan Basheer Mehmood is one of them) were arrested for their links to Al Qaeda. Hence the periodic statements emanating from Islamabad that `Paki nukes are in safe hands, Pakistan is committed to nuclear non-proliferation, blah blah!`

Paki nukes are now firmly under the US scanner. Not for nothing do some Paki columnists suspect that the Americans are in Pakistan for something more, not just to fight the war on terror.

And the credit for this goes solely to the BJP government.


[It is not that BJP leaders are doing anything illegal in boycotting the swearing in - as members of India`s national assembly, they have a responsibility to demonstrate respect for the constitution.]

Nor is it mentioned in the Constitution that members can boycott another member during Parliament sessions. This happens all the time. For example, George Fernandes, the previous defense minister was heckled and boycotted during a discussion on some controversial defense deals a couple of years ago.

Boycott is by no means unconstitutional.

Slight digression: those two arrested scientists, whatever happened to them? Where are they?

i think i could tell the sarcasm implied in your questions sadna -- as for your post #39 -- i dont demand that readers take what journalists write as the gospel truth -- as far as opinions are concerned everybody has a right to hold them but one shouldn`t impose them on others -- as far as cases where facts are considered, what i find here is that some people, even when the facts are presented to them, insist on their version -- and by the way im not talking about myself -- sadna, if for example you have been a teacher for say 15 years I would give some credence to your views on education and teaching -- i wouldnt hold them as gospel truth but i would think that you have some idea of what your talking about -- i dont know which `well-known` columnists you`re talking about -- but columnists, opinion writers and commentators are bound to hold strong views and opinions -- after all that`s what they are, in a way, paid for -- to write down their views and opinions -- as for them not responding well to disagreement well sadna in case you didnt notice this isnt a newspaper or a tv channel -- in any media organization feedback is quite regulated and if feedback is personal then more often than not the columnist or editor is quite entitled to either not respond to it or respond to it tersely -- in dawn today and yesterday, there were two very critical letters against one of Pakistan`s best-known columnists, Ardeshir Cowasjee -- and he had not responded to them, so far -- but i`m sure when he does he will be civil -- the reason for that is the newspaper`s policy which strongly discourages personal attacks -- the same, however, cannot be said for this website which often seems to allow violations of its stated policy -- and when it is pointed out to them that such violations are happening frequently then for some inexplicable reason invalid extrapolations are made as if it is being suggested that interactors be banned -- and actually in newspapers, personal attacks are never, or should be never, published -- im afraid, sadna, you totally overlook the fact that a lot of the responses by readers are themselves personal, insulting and slanderous -- but i suppose that reflects on those who come and interact on chowk

veeresh sahib -- quite typical of you to go on and on, and digress and deflect when you have no arguments to offer -- naheen veeresh sahib, i dont think i have an interest in hino buses as abiding as yours so i think i will give the bonnet-checking a miss -- and again you misquote me/twist facts -- i never taunted urdu journalists anywhere in my posts -- you keep mentioning them -- as for the daily times piece veeresh sahib -- even if it was published before your piece came out, you seem to fit the type of indian visitor najam sethi is talking about -- of course, this i say based on your articles and the tone and tenor of much of your posts on this site -- AND, that is my opinion, kindly dont bombard me with theories, explanations or further references to your rather brief visit to the land of your forefathers --

Time someone wrote about Shahbaz Shreef`s Pakistan Yatra - called `Tronsit` (transit) by Sheihk Rasheed.

Dost # 42

No it didn`t help. Though I thank you for at least being civil - must have been really hard to write such a post. I appreciate the effort.

Your post didn`t help because I beleive that every madness has a reason. The reason these religious nuts are acting and they are dragging everything un-related into accusations is that they are preparing the groundwork for their retribution against Muslims for not voting for them. I think Muslims will face extremely tough times ahead, especially, with a proxy PM such as Manmohan Singh, not that the Gandhi family are angels of mercy for them either.

Urstruly:
``I think Muslims will face extremely tough times ahead, especially, with a proxy PM such as Manmohan Singh, not that the Gandhi family are angels of mercy for them either.``

I wish I could outrightly reject your fears, but I cannot. All I can say right now is that it is too early to tell. The BJP will soon take stock of the situation on how to revive its fortunes. It has two alternatives: to continue ABV`s attempts to enlarge its tent to attract minorities into it, which is essential if it wants to lay claim to be a governing party; or, to polarise the society by a more militant hinutva represented by Narendra Modi. The BJP would have almost certainly gone for the former, except for the fact that Narendra Modi has also substantial support in his home state of Gujarat. So, his brand of politics of polarisation, too, yielded only short-term gains.
Check with me in six months` time!

correction:
In #53. ``The BJP would have almost certainly gone for the former, except for the fact that Narendra Modi has also substantial support in his home state of Gujarat``
should read, ``The BJP would have almost certainly gone for the former, except for the fact that Narendra Modi has also LOST substantial support in his home state of Gujarat``

urstruly,

On the other hand, have you noticed how sore losers these hindu religious nuts are?Why drag Pakistanis and Muslims into their internal defeat? Pakistan on the other hand even fixed up cricket matches to give these nutjobs a boost in the election

ha ha, yup pakistan fixed the cricket mathces alright, just as the jews were responsible for 9/11.
After all, wasn`t it a jewish conspiracy, not a single jewish person went to work at the
Word Trade Center that day?
Please keep on fixing cricket matches, it suits us just fine.

Ref shehryar #16

[Defeat of BJP to Congress merely leads to change of faces and words, but does it really change anything thats worth changing? Will the condition of ordinary muslims and other minorities improve? I don`t think so.]

The condition of the ordinary Muslims will NOT improve. If Muslims WANT to be beggars, they will remain beggars. Asking for government handouts is just another form of begging.

Other religious minorities such as Sikhs, Parsis and Jains are doing quite well without the support of the government, thank you very much.

sri #44 It is indeed about the economy, stupid. Or didnt you see the election results? Or do you think you are smarter than the average Indian voter?

The Indian economy is not quite switzerland yet, ya dumbass BJP bootlicker.

I am just kidding on the name calling, so dont get mad. hey, if you can call me a religious nut for no reason, then I can call you a few things WITH good reason. ;-)

Another thing, ya half-brained NRI piece of cra!p (just kidding again). BJP had nothing to do with the IT business - Nehru (your arch-nemesis, ya illiterate computer programmer) gets credit for that and the Indian businessmen get credit for that. BJP was there for the ride. Credit BJP for spreading its primitive tribal ideology, if you must credit it.

Stooopid BJP chamcha!!

just kidding, my man. stay cool. and forget about BJP. Next time Advani gives you any trouble, let us Pakis know and we will stick a missile up his rear. :-)

Ref harish_hyd #1

{[I can imagine her practically speechless with joy at the defeat of the communal forces that have for the last so many years held India hostage to their bigotry and violence.]

Communal forces? In the aftermath of Indira Gandhi`s assassination, thousands of Sikhs were massacred in Delhi (and elsewhere) by Congress supporters. The Gujarat violence simply pales in comparison. Jagdish Tytler and Sajjan Kumar, two Congress stalwarts were only recently acquited for their role in the genocide for lack of evidence.}

And Sajjan Kumat gets re-elected to the Parliament from New Delhi with a thumping majority.

And these folks want Narendra Modi to be ousted!

It is only wrong to kill Muslims in India. Sikhs are fair game; weren`t they targeted back in 1947 by the Muslim League?

harish_hyd #48 I think sir that you give BJP more credit than it deserves.

While I have been thru these arguments before on chowk, let me repeat my conclusions even taking into account what the Indian posters were saying:

1. Prior to the nuclear explosions, Pakistan was in the economic doghouse living under all sorts of sanctions. In the weeks and months following the explosions, the sanctions were steadily lifted. Thanks to BJP, Pakistan came in from out of the cold.

2. Throughout the 1990`s, prior to the nuclear explosions, BJP had followed an aggressive policy of confrontation with Pakistan. After the explosions: BJP suddenly discovered the virtues of peace with Pakistan.

Further to this, I recall that Indian leaders publicly called for Pakistan to be declared a pariah state along with countries like N. Korea and Iran throughout the 1990`s (the US not to listen to BJP`s please, but that doesnt change the fact that Indian leaders tried). This anti-Pakistan rhetoric peaked of course in 1998 in the form of Advani`s direct threats. After Pakistan responded in kind and demonstrated it was not cowed by BJP bullying, and indeed now had the power to knock Advani`s socks off, things changed. And then BJP discovered the peace process.

3. Far from Pakistan coming under the ``US scanner`` as you think, the fact is that the US and the rest of the world now has a direct stake in stability in Pakistan.

I dont know which nuclear scientists you have in mind, but Qadeer Khan was questioned and publicly pardoned by Musharaff.

So, dont give BJP credit for what it does not deserve. India and Pakistan had started moving towards peace under Gujral - NOT under BJP. Gujral and Sharif had in fact developed good personal rapport, and conversed in Panjabi like old chums. BJP had in fact set the clock back with its anti-Pakistan rhetoric.

And peace with Pakistan is not the only the only time BJP has picked up false credit.


On your second issue, it is not a question of legalities. It is a question of leadership and support to the democratic process. In both areas BJP has miserably failed (ABVs quick acceptance of election results was the only right thing BJP did, but then ABV is I think one man and the next in line BJP leaders are blinded by their hatefilled BJP ideology).

Re: #47 satyamvada

Don`t bet on it. He needs surgery to get his twinky brain replaced first....

Sri # 44

Sometimes talking to you banya people just boggles my mind. Would you care to explain how could it be ``Economy Stupid`` when India`s purported annual growth rate is 10%. You cannot have it both ways. Either you were and you are telling a lie about your growth rate or it is NOT ``Economy Stupid``. A third possibility is that the way you measure growth rate is wrong. Personlly I think it is a combination of reason # 1 & #3.

Dost # 53 & 54

That was an honest reply. Direction should be clear now, that measures should be taken at this point of time to protect the life, property, and honor of Muslim subjects in India. They were never in more danger than before.

#48 by harish_hyd

You are wasting your time with tahmed. As far as BJP and nuke is concerned - he is blind as a bat - His hatred towards BJP prevents him from thinking straight.

Veeru #31:

…no haven’t been to sudan yet…I know what you are saying here…except that my questioning you rose from an earlier interact on another board where u used the term ummah wrt sudan…hermeneutically I cannot fault you for using ummah

..but it is passé…the alleged desi members of this ummah are not bothered by the happenings in sudan, chechenya, southern thailand, phillipines to name a few hot spots…heck…a few years ago during the holocaust in bosnia can you name the first country that offered refuge to the muslim victims?… hint: it is an ‘occupier’ in the most volatile region of mid east

rgd,

t

tahmed...
It would have been better for yourself, if you learn to keep quiet. You would not
make such gaffes.

Tahmed wrote:
1. Prior to the nuclear explosions, Pakistan was in the economic doghouse living under all sorts of sanctions. In the weeks and months following the explosions, the sanctions were steadily lifted. Thanks to BJP, Pakistan came in from out of the cold.

Answer:
Boss....Pakiland was in economic difficulties - but it was under no economic sanctions.
AFAIK, only the Pressler amendment was in effect - which was because the US Prez
could not confirm that Pakiland was not developing nukes.
You must be smoking or still have not woken up from your madrassa stupor if you
claim that sanctions were lifted after the nuke explosions !! ...

The financial sanctions (from IMF,WB) were imposed after the nuke explosions and
crippled Pakistan economically
The sanctions were lifted only after 9/11

---

tahmed wrote:
2. Throughout the 1990`s, prior to the nuclear explosions, BJP had followed an aggressive policy of confrontation with Pakistan. After the explosions: BJP suddenly discovered the virtues of peace with Pakistan.
Answer:
huh ? BJP was in the opposition for most of the 90`s.
From your statements, you seem to imply that it was BJP or India who did not
want peace with the pure Pakiland.
Have you forgotten Kargil, infitration of jihadis etc ?
The madrasa education comes through..even when you pretend to be sophisticated.

---

tahmed wrote:
Further to this, I recall that Indian leaders publicly called for Pakistan to be declared a pariah state along with countries like N. Korea and Iran throughout the 1990`s (the US not to listen to BJP`s please, but that doesnt change the fact that Indian leaders tried). This anti-Pakistan rhetoric peaked of course in 1998 in the form of Advani`s direct threats. After Pakistan responded in kind and demonstrated it was not cowed by BJP bullying, and indeed now had the power to knock Advani`s socks off, things changed. And then BJP discovered the peace process.

Answer:
Of course, even now India would prefer Pakiland to be labelled a terrorist state - that
is because you guys are still pushing in jihadis into India.
Advani`s (and George Fernandes`s rhetoric) were fantastic. When Advani threatened
an active policy of pursuing the jihadis into Pakiland - the Paki leadership was forced
to come out and explode the nukes. The Indian Govt succeeded in blowing the Paki
covert development.

---

tahmed wrote:
3. Far from Pakistan coming under the ``US scanner`` as you think, the fact is that the US and the rest of the world now has a direct stake in stability in Pakistan.

Answer
Indeed. The wholed world has an interest in stability (defining stability of course varies)
in P*kiland. Even India wants enough stability in Pakiland, by which
India hopes that the P*kis get enough brains to know what is good for themselves
instead of mindless attacks against the kafirs and making P*kiland purer and purer.

Finally - Realize that all education in P*kiland is madrassa education. People like
you just got to learn English and some more technical skills. Other than that, your
thinking capability is no different from that of villager who goes to
mullah school in the NWFP.

omar_r_quraishi #50
My questions were not sarcastic.

``as far as cases where facts are considered, what i find here is that some people, even when the facts are presented to them, insist on their version.``

It is perfectly natural that people have different perspectives. Anyone, particularly a journalist, should normally find it worth his/her while to investigate further what lies behind people`s belief in their own version, he/she is sure to learn something.

Unless of course a journalist wants to impose his/her version of the truth on everyone. This situation can be described as `ulti-Ganga` or the Ganges flowing upstream.

``if feedback is personal then more often than not the columnist or editor is quite entitled to either not respond to it or respond to it tersely``

If you had read carefully, I was not talking of personal attacks. You repeatedly cast valid disagreement as a personal attack, is there some good reason for this? This is also sometimes seen in replies to reader by columnists which are published in the letters section.

Does it not increase credibility to answer a valid point with an objective answer rather than a whiny `the world is out to get me` reply?


``im afraid, sadna, you totally overlook the fact that a lot of the responses by readers are themselves personal, insulting and slanderous -- but i suppose that reflects on those who come and interact on chowk ``

You are always free to overlook the personal insulting and slanderous responses. However terming valid disagreement as slander works only when you are in a select gathering of sympathetic friends who can eject anyone who does not back down. Or you can also try to criminalise dissent or call it immoral or call it hatemongering, you will not be the first to take this easy route. You can avoid all that by keeping an open enquiring mind- apparently that is the hardest option.

urstruly

i agree that muslims in india are likely to be in danger (as before). some triggers could be
1. modi gets a criminal trial
2. shivsena senses political expediency towards upcoming maharashtra assembly elections
3. temple campaign picks-up again

my personal feeling is that these are unlikely as politically speaking these issues are like an old chewing gum. economics will dominate much larger. i dont think bjp or anyone else is assiging lack of muslim vote as a blame for their loss. as you know well, banyas are very calculating.

so, what is the lashkar plan of action to help your ummah? whining on the chowk?

also, is it a bania or banya? what is the apropriate spelling? you must forgive my ignorance since this word is not used in india.

Correction #66
`ulti Ganga behna`

Mullah Urstruly....

First learn about economics.

In the Indian economy, agriculture forms only a small part of it.
For the Indian GDP - Agriculture contributes only about 25% (approx) wheras
services is around 50% and manufacturing about 25%. (these are all approximations)

But, 70% of the Indian population is dependent on agriculture, which contributes
to only 25% of the total economy.

So, a growth rate of 8.4% does not affect the rural voter as much. The mistake of
the BJP was in not having proper alliances in TN, Assam and Karnataka. In UP, also
they could have tied up with Mayawati ( but that would have forced a tieup between
Mulayam and Cong - which is not in BJP interest)

The Indian policy structure is strong enough and same economic policies will continue.
Now even Mulayam will be under pressure to perform. The political fights will
continue and grow shriller - that is good for the Indian people.

... This is the strength of Indian democracy.

mohar: I dont hate BJP. If they ever did anything right, I would applaud it (as in fact I did when ABV showed respect for the constitutional process and promptly accepted defeat in elections). But look at the shameless and racist manner in which the BJP politicians then chose to reject the will of the Indian people as expressed through the Indian constitution. If this doesnt bother you or other Indians, that is too bad.

stayamvada #67

On my point 1. i.e. you write ``The sanctions were lifted only after 9/11``. You are wrong and are obviously not aware of what happened after the nuclear explosions of May 1998. In October 1998, the Brownback I law was signed by Congress that effectively lifted the various sanctions Pakistan had been put under over the past decade (Glenn, Symington, Pressler) in an unsuccessful effort by the US to stop its nuclearization program. While technically, at least one of these sanctions (Glenn) also impacted India, as a practical matter the impact of all of these was on Pakistan. (Brownback II was passed by Congress the following year making this lifting of sanctions permanent).

On point 2, you ignore the simple point I made (i.e. that peace moves had started under INC under Gujral, and BJP ended those and instead chose to try and bully Pakistan and to have it declared a pariah state - both unsuccessfully). Instead you go on to provide explanations on why India had a right to do this (including Kargil? do you know what you are talking about - that was way after that period).


The rest of your post is that usual rubbish like calling Pakistan Pakiland and parroting your BJP-taught mantra of Pakistanis getting madrassah education. From your ignorance of simple facts of recent history (as I pointed out on point above) it is clear that you are hardly in a position to pontificate on madrassah education.

sadna, this is going to go nowhere

---

i think people have the right to express their own opinions and i would assume that is some sign of an inquiring mind -- actually what i find hard to stomach is people on this board telling others how they should be thinking -- they cant seem to resist that it seems -- as for valid disagreement being called personal attacks, i said the opposite -- valid disagreement is not valid when its a thinly veiled personal attack -- if you think that i meant it the other way round, well that`s your interpretation of it and you are free to have it -- of course people can learn from others, doesnt matter whether you`re a journalist or in any other profession -- so, who is disagreeing with that -- thanks for telling me about the ulti ganga thing -- i have learnt something new today -- after reading your post, sadna, it seems as if you never read my earlier posts -- no one is saying that dissent should be criminalized -- rather that it if it takes on slanderous and personal attacks then it loses it validity or relevance -- as for ignoring the slanderous or personal attacks, well why should anyone do that -- the onus should be on the one making such remarks to act in a responsible manner -- sadna have you ever worked in a newspaper or media organization yourself -- there are established channels of dealing with dissent , after all what is the letters to the editors page, if not a platform to air their views and grievance -- tell me what you do for a living and how you deal with dissent in your workplace -- i think its only fair for me to discuss further issues related to journalism provided we can talk about how such issues are dealt in your profession -- i look forward to your answer on this --

omar_r_quraishi #72
``what you do for a living and how you deal with dissent in your workplace -- i think its only fair for me to discuss further issues related to journalism provided we can talk about how such issues are dealt in your profession -- i look forward to your answer on this -- ``

You are again making dissent into a personal matter. As just another interactor like all other interactors, what does what I do for a living have to do with it?

A newspaper or other media source is a public institution of sorts. It sells news and opinion to the public as its business enterprise. So aren`t journalists in position of service providers in whatever degree, to customers, aka the reading public, irrespective of what profession the readers follow?

I do not have to tell you what I do for a living for us to discuss issues which journalists write about, nor about how journalists handle disagreement with their readers. Here Ms Sarwar is talking about India. Must I tell you my profession before I can disagree with her or with you?

And btw, there are professions(mine too) where thinking for oneself is an absolute requirement and dissent is an absolute given. When called upon to explain one`s POV, one can not start ripping into the other person, his antecedents, lineage and purported ingratitude. One would be thrown out of the job if one defended a POV so poorly, if one ever managed to get hired ie.

This is going nowhere as you say. What do you say, perhaps it is best for me to avoid reading a particular writer altogether if I can not disagree with what he/she writes. That way the writer gets his/her select readership and it is a win-win situation all around.

tahmed,

Dude,
Look at this site http://www.clw.org/atop/restrictions_timeline.html.
You are just a big time bullshitter.
Until 1990 - Pakistan was a freeloader, getting all kinds of goodies from the US
for being a frontline state. In 1995, the Brown amendment helps bypass the the
minimal useless sanctions.
It is only after the nuke explosions - big time financial sanctions from the WB and IMF
are imposed which brought the already tottering Paki economy to its knees.

You behave in typically the same manner as Musharraf - all self righteous talk
even as you support and cover up bigoted activity.

#56 by tahmed32 on May 19, 2004 6:55am PT


[Prior to the nuclear explosions, Pakistan was in the economic doghouse living under all sorts of sanctions. In the weeks and months following the explosions, the sanctions were steadily lifted. Thanks to BJP, Pakistan came in from out of the cold.]

Certainly doesn`t change what I said. Pakistan stood exposed after the explosions and the world knew for sure what it had always suspected.


[Throughout the 1990`s, prior to the nuclear explosions, BJP had followed an aggressive policy of confrontation with Pakistan. After the explosions: BJP suddenly discovered the virtues of peace with Pakistan.]

Exactly the policy that even Pakistan is guilty of. Why did it go from denying that there were terrorist camps in “Azad” Kashmir throughout the 90s, to quoting the Indian Army Chief’s observation that infiltration had come down?

And note that it was not after the explosions that India and Pakistan started talking peace. The explosions took place in 1998, and the peace talks started sometime in 2002. In the interim, there were the Kargil war and the troop build-up, not something you can associate with peace. And note that the peace talks began only after the troop build up, not exactly an achievement for the brave Pakistan Army to crow about.


[Further to this, I recall that Indian leaders publicly called for Pakistan to be declared a pariah state along with countries like N. Korea and Iran throughout the 1990`s (the US not to listen to BJP`s please, but that doesnt change the fact that Indian leaders tried). This anti-Pakistan rhetoric peaked of course in 1998 in the form of Advani`s direct threats. After Pakistan responded in kind and demonstrated it was not cowed by BJP bullying, and indeed now had the power to knock Advani`s socks off, things changed. And then BJP discovered the peace process.]

The US not declaring Pakistan a pariah doesn’t change the well-documented fact that Pakistan fathered the Taliban, which in turn gave sanctuary to the Al Qaeda, the most-dreaded terrorist organization today. Thus, Pakistan IS indirectly responsible for the WTC tragedy. It also doesn’t change the fact that Pakistan trained and armed terrorists that have wreaked havoc in Kashmir. If supporting terrorists and acquiring/developing WMDs is the yardstick for being declared a terrorist state, Pakistan eminently qualifies for this label, way ahead of Iraq, Libya, or North Korea. And if it weren’t for the fact that the US had other interests in Pakistan (getting hold of Pakistan’s nukes) than merely the war on terror, Pakistan would have found itself overrun exactly the way Iraq was.


[Far from Pakistan coming under the ``US scanner`` as you think, the fact is that the US and the rest of the world now has a direct stake in stability in Pakistan.]

Doesn`t speak too highly of Pakistan, does it? If you have access to what some of the think-tanks in the US feel, you will know that some of them have even advocated taking out Pakistan`s nukes by force. And it is these think tanks that shape US foreign policy. Such is the distrust the Americans have in Pakistan`s ability to keep its nukes safe.


[I dont know which nuclear scientists you have in mind, but Qadeer Khan was questioned and publicly pardoned by Musharaff.]

Here`s what I found when I googled the Internet. Pretty simple, if you ask me.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,72-137738,00.html


[So, dont give BJP credit for what it does not deserve. India and Pakistan had started moving towards peace under Gujral - NOT under BJP. Gujral and Sharif had in fact developed good personal rapport, and conversed in Panjabi like old chums. BJP had in fact set the clock back with its anti-Pakistan rhetoric.]

But it was Vajpayee who actually moved it forward. And whatever progress has been made in Indo-Pakistan relations has been solely under his leadership. And if his party hadn`t approved of the peace process, he could have done squat.


[On your second issue, it is not a question of legalities. It is a question of leadership and support to the democratic process. In both areas BJP has miserably failed (ABVs quick acceptance of election results was the only right thing BJP did, but then ABV is I think one man and the next in line BJP leaders are blinded by their hatefilled BJP ideology).]

Vajpayee`s graceful exit is in itself proof of the BJP`s support to the democratic process. And the fact that everyone in the party, even Pakistan`s favorite whipping boy Advani has accepted him as the leader reflects the BJP`s commitment to democracy.

actually your profession is relevant to the debate because when you comment on what journalists should or should not do, well i am one and hence what i do, indirectly, comes under scrutiny -- in case you didnt notice i didnt write this piece so then why are you interacting with me or do you expect me to speak on beena`s behalf as a fellow journalist? i dont come on chowk to explain what i do or dont do in my professional life, as i have explained quite a few times before, and your comments on journalism expect me to explain as a journalist what we as a community should or should not do -- i am not making dissent into a personal matter sadna, i dont know where you get that from -- if you want to comment on a profession, and by the way given that i did not write this piece you specifically asked me questions concerning how journalists should carry themselves and deal with dissent or difference of opinion i think i have the right to ask you the same questions -- im sorry you see that as a sign of intolerance or not being able to deal with dissent, or making dissent a personal issue -- anyway, as i thought, you werent going to disclose what you do professionally, after that i dont think i have to explain myself to you on this board, esp. since the article isnt mine and esp. since your questions were not directed vis-a-vis its content or any remarks i might have made regarding its content -- and by the sadna, newspapers are institutions or information providers as you said of sorts, this website is different by the way -- and if at work we spend half the time explaining what we do, we will never be able to take out a 30-page newspaper every day -- as for disagreeing with me or beena, sadna, i wasnt even sure who you were disagreeing with till i read your most recent post -- well if you were disagreeing with her plz wait for her responses, and if you are disagreeing with me on something then try and leave my profession out of it, or stop making judgements of my professional competence, or lack thereof, based on my posts --

your remark: ``When called upon to explain one`s POV, one can not start ripping into the other person, his antecedents, lineage and purported ingratitude. One would be thrown out of the job if one defended a POV so poorly, if one ever managed to get hired ie.`` -- i am not sure what you`re getting into -- ripping apart into one`s lineage or antecedents is perhaps something that some interactors do on this website sadna, but im pretty sure im not one of them -- i am amazed by how you draw your conclusions about something i have never said --

you write: ``This is going nowhere as you say. What do you say, perhaps it is best for me to avoid reading a particular writer altogether if I can not disagree with what he/she writes. That way the writer gets his/her select readership and it is a win-win situation all around.`` -- no sadna i am saying no such thing, plz dont put words into my mouth -- i am saying this is going nowhere but i am not telling you what you should or should not read -- after all i do have a right to exercise my option to not respond to an interactor`s remarks on this site, just as you do, or don`t I?

satyamvada #73 I had told you politel