Sonia Gandhi and the Coming of Age of the Indian Nation
Deepak Sapra May 18, 2004
#49 Posted by dost_mittar on May 22, 2004 5:54:31 am
nb:
Rest easy. I am younger than Manmohan Singh. It is just that I left DSE as a student before he joined it as a professor. Happy? :)
``I think establishing a Hindu identity-or identities, given the pluralistic nature of Hinduism-is important-in our own mind.``
I am not sure if I understand your above statement. Re. Yadavs. A most unfortunate development in India, in my opinion, over the past two decades has been the castification of politics. I was and, to some extent, continue to be an admirer of V.P. Singh whom I (and perhaps only I) consider to be the intiator of economic reforms in India. But he also, in my opinion, is to be blamed for this curse of casteism in the Indian body politic. He did so as PM to fight his own supporter, Devi Lal, who was creating trouble for him with his jat caste-based politics. Instead of dealing with him head-on with the unique support of the CPM and BJP that he enjoyed at that time, he chose to divide the whole Hindu society through the `mandalisation` of politics. The BJP, which was at that time trying to expand its mainly upper-caste hindu base was then faced with a dilemma. It could either oppose Mandal report and seal its own fate among the lower castes or to unite the hindus on some potent issue, such as the Ayodhya temple. As the cliche goes, it answered VP`s Mandal with its own Kamandal, namely, the armies of sadhus brought in support of the Ayodhya temple.
But VP Singh and his protege, such as Laloo and Mulayam, have continued with their dangerous experiment of social engineering. The attempt has been to convert the Hindu majority into a aggregate of minorities - yadavs, dalits, upper castes, etc., etc. I think that the more these worthies try to do that, the more they will encourage BJP to divide the society along hindus-versus-others and try to convert a broad-minded plural identity into a homogeneous religious identity like those of some other religions, which will be sad in my opinion.
Re. holi, it so happens that I was in Varanasi just a day before Holi and did not notice any problem.
Rest easy. I am younger than Manmohan Singh. It is just that I left DSE as a student before he joined it as a professor. Happy? :)
``I think establishing a Hindu identity-or identities, given the pluralistic nature of Hinduism-is important-in our own mind.``
I am not sure if I understand your above statement. Re. Yadavs. A most unfortunate development in India, in my opinion, over the past two decades has been the castification of politics. I was and, to some extent, continue to be an admirer of V.P. Singh whom I (and perhaps only I) consider to be the intiator of economic reforms in India. But he also, in my opinion, is to be blamed for this curse of casteism in the Indian body politic. He did so as PM to fight his own supporter, Devi Lal, who was creating trouble for him with his jat caste-based politics. Instead of dealing with him head-on with the unique support of the CPM and BJP that he enjoyed at that time, he chose to divide the whole Hindu society through the `mandalisation` of politics. The BJP, which was at that time trying to expand its mainly upper-caste hindu base was then faced with a dilemma. It could either oppose Mandal report and seal its own fate among the lower castes or to unite the hindus on some potent issue, such as the Ayodhya temple. As the cliche goes, it answered VP`s Mandal with its own Kamandal, namely, the armies of sadhus brought in support of the Ayodhya temple.
But VP Singh and his protege, such as Laloo and Mulayam, have continued with their dangerous experiment of social engineering. The attempt has been to convert the Hindu majority into a aggregate of minorities - yadavs, dalits, upper castes, etc., etc. I think that the more these worthies try to do that, the more they will encourage BJP to divide the society along hindus-versus-others and try to convert a broad-minded plural identity into a homogeneous religious identity like those of some other religions, which will be sad in my opinion.
Re. holi, it so happens that I was in Varanasi just a day before Holi and did not notice any problem.
reply to this interact
write a new interact
add to favorites
flag objectionable content
#50 Posted by sadna on May 22, 2004 12:25:20 pm
dost-mittar
Well by self-abnegating, I did not mean rejecting religious identity, I meant taking oneself at everyone else`s cr_ppy evaluation.
For example, on the subject of `liberals`, look at this contrast between aar-paar. Because we are Hindu, we are extremists if we express our wish not to have a foreign-born Prime Minister.
Because they are Muslim, they get to support military rule, without losing a tiniest bit of their liberal shine. huh?
So what if on one hand the favored military arrests every viable politician and on the other hand, the favored military`s extremist bedfellows continue killing people and fomenting civil war in three countries(at last count)- as they have done for years.
These liberals are Muslim, so despite all this their celebrated liberalism is quite unassailable. Had they been Hindu instead..
And the fact that I point it out makes me an extremist Hindu, thats a given..
#51 Posted by nb on May 22, 2004 12:25:20 pm
That makes sense; I thought ``he`s doing well for an 80 year old!!!``
I meant that we need to work out for ourselves what a Hindu identity is. Everyone thinks they have they answer, whether it be Rushdie or Vinod Mehta or Sushma Swaraj.
I remember the VP Singh years, I was a schoolgirl then, and we were all so hopeful, but it all unravelled in months. I believe very strongly that he is to blame not only for the new casteism in India, but for the whole Mandir/Masjid issue (not that Rajiv`s Shah Bano judgment and the opportunism of the RSS feeding into a genuine emotion helped).
Let me explain about Varanasi. On our last trip, there was a BSP rally, which led to certain unpleasant experiences(maybe it was because ``our`` car belonged to a very prominent Congressman and the driver was recognised). Besides, I was also warned that it was now dirtier than ever-saying something for Varanasi! In spite of that, it does have its own magic, don`t you think?
I meant that we need to work out for ourselves what a Hindu identity is. Everyone thinks they have they answer, whether it be Rushdie or Vinod Mehta or Sushma Swaraj.
I remember the VP Singh years, I was a schoolgirl then, and we were all so hopeful, but it all unravelled in months. I believe very strongly that he is to blame not only for the new casteism in India, but for the whole Mandir/Masjid issue (not that Rajiv`s Shah Bano judgment and the opportunism of the RSS feeding into a genuine emotion helped).
Let me explain about Varanasi. On our last trip, there was a BSP rally, which led to certain unpleasant experiences(maybe it was because ``our`` car belonged to a very prominent Congressman and the driver was recognised). Besides, I was also warned that it was now dirtier than ever-saying something for Varanasi! In spite of that, it does have its own magic, don`t you think?
#52 Posted by harimau on May 22, 2004 12:25:20 pm
Ref nb #48
[I was in India over Holi and couldn`t go to Varanasi because I was warned it wasn`t safe. I do believe I should be able to visit what is a holy city to me without having to worry about being assaulted or kidnapped.]
I think you should have attempted to visit Haji Ali in Bombay, the Nagore Dargah in Tamil Nadu or the dargahs in Ajmer or Delhi. You would have encountered no security or safety issues. That is the true face of secularism. Expect more secularism in the future.
[I was in India over Holi and couldn`t go to Varanasi because I was warned it wasn`t safe. I do believe I should be able to visit what is a holy city to me without having to worry about being assaulted or kidnapped.]
I think you should have attempted to visit Haji Ali in Bombay, the Nagore Dargah in Tamil Nadu or the dargahs in Ajmer or Delhi. You would have encountered no security or safety issues. That is the true face of secularism. Expect more secularism in the future.
#53 Posted by dost_mittar on May 22, 2004 12:39:41 pm
sadna:
``And the fact that I point it out makes me an extremist Hindu, thats a given.. ``
no, just a ``hatemongerer``! :)
``And the fact that I point it out makes me an extremist Hindu, thats a given.. ``
no, just a ``hatemongerer``! :)
#54 Posted by sadna on May 22, 2004 9:55:51 pm
dost-mittar #53
Some more hatemongering questions for `liberals` Indian and Pakistani :
Why is jihadi violence and Maoist violence acceptable as `politics by other means` but Hindutva violence not acceptable as `politics by other means`?
Why are the Three Gorges, Kalabagh, Mangala etc dams just fine, but the Narmada dam is not fine?
More Muslims have died in state-sponsored jihad, killed and killers(perhaps by a factor of 10 even 100 if you count Afghanistan) than Muslims were killed in Gujarat. So why the selective outrage?
Some more hatemongering questions for `liberals` Indian and Pakistani :
Why is jihadi violence and Maoist violence acceptable as `politics by other means` but Hindutva violence not acceptable as `politics by other means`?
Why are the Three Gorges, Kalabagh, Mangala etc dams just fine, but the Narmada dam is not fine?
More Muslims have died in state-sponsored jihad, killed and killers(perhaps by a factor of 10 even 100 if you count Afghanistan) than Muslims were killed in Gujarat. So why the selective outrage?
#55 Posted by rsridhar on May 23, 2004 12:06:09 pm
re:#54 by sadna
Let me butt in here and give my 10 cents worth.
India claims itself to be a secular nation. Its constitution proclaims it to be so. There are constitutional guarantees for the minorities. Just as there is nothing like a ``touch of pregnancy`` (a woman is either pregnant or she is not), there is nothing like a ``touch of secularism``. If u are not secular, you join the club that has countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran, and a surfeit of Islamic countries and yes, Pakistan too.
Pak never claimed itself to be a secular nation. Hence, if jehandis kill kafirs and their mullahs and the crowd applauds, we have to just say ``what else can we expect from the Pakis? They are not secular any way.``. NOt so with India. India`s very existence rests on the tripod of secularism, democracy and socialism (with an increasing share of free market nowadays). It is the nature of the beast. If India says it is secular, it bloody well act like one or else it has no respect in this world. I think even BJP now realizes this after the recent defeat.
Namada Dam has displaced a number of poor people from their ancient roots. Again, India being a democracy, u hear a lot of noise and some dedicated social activists are involved. The full ramifications of 3 Gorges will be known in years to come. As always, China keeps everything under wraps and u will only hear the good story first.
Mangla dam? I think this is a big issue in Pakistan. What makes u think Pakis are OK with this dam?
Sridhar
Let me butt in here and give my 10 cents worth.
India claims itself to be a secular nation. Its constitution proclaims it to be so. There are constitutional guarantees for the minorities. Just as there is nothing like a ``touch of pregnancy`` (a woman is either pregnant or she is not), there is nothing like a ``touch of secularism``. If u are not secular, you join the club that has countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran, and a surfeit of Islamic countries and yes, Pakistan too.
Pak never claimed itself to be a secular nation. Hence, if jehandis kill kafirs and their mullahs and the crowd applauds, we have to just say ``what else can we expect from the Pakis? They are not secular any way.``. NOt so with India. India`s very existence rests on the tripod of secularism, democracy and socialism (with an increasing share of free market nowadays). It is the nature of the beast. If India says it is secular, it bloody well act like one or else it has no respect in this world. I think even BJP now realizes this after the recent defeat.
Namada Dam has displaced a number of poor people from their ancient roots. Again, India being a democracy, u hear a lot of noise and some dedicated social activists are involved. The full ramifications of 3 Gorges will be known in years to come. As always, China keeps everything under wraps and u will only hear the good story first.
Mangla dam? I think this is a big issue in Pakistan. What makes u think Pakis are OK with this dam?
Sridhar
#56 Posted by harimau on May 23, 2004 12:06:10 pm
Ref sadna #54
What has happened to you?
Just about a year ago, you were one of the hand-wringing apologetic Hindus.
What has happened to you?
Just about a year ago, you were one of the hand-wringing apologetic Hindus.
#57 Posted by sadna on May 23, 2004 1:32:33 pm
btw, Jagdish Tytler actually led the mobs which burnt innocent people. He is now a minister in the Union Cabinet.
Why no statement of protest from Paki or Indian liberals ? Have you all gone hiding under tables somewhere ?
Why no statement of protest from Paki or Indian liberals ? Have you all gone hiding under tables somewhere ?
#58 Posted by sadna on May 23, 2004 1:32:34 pm
rsridhar #55
``Pak never claimed itself to be a secular nation. ``
Yet they lecture Indians on secularism and pluralism day in and day out. That is called shameless hypocrisy.
harimau #56
That was your designation, not mine. If you insist on judging me wrong repeatedly that is not my problem.
``Pak never claimed itself to be a secular nation. ``
Yet they lecture Indians on secularism and pluralism day in and day out. That is called shameless hypocrisy.
harimau #56
That was your designation, not mine. If you insist on judging me wrong repeatedly that is not my problem.
#59 Posted by dost_mittar on May 24, 2004 5:04:02 am
rsridhar:
Did you say that India`s very existence rests on socialism? The country, then, is doomed unless you have some weird definition of socialism!
Did you say that India`s very existence rests on socialism? The country, then, is doomed unless you have some weird definition of socialism!
#60 Posted by jang on May 24, 2004 10:38:43 am
nb
varanasi on the eve of holi is to be totally avoided by ``decent`` women.
there is an extremely raunchy kavi-sammelan on the ghats which is paradoxically a must-see. wonder if up tourism promotes this.
varanasi on the eve of holi is to be totally avoided by ``decent`` women.
there is an extremely raunchy kavi-sammelan on the ghats which is paradoxically a must-see. wonder if up tourism promotes this.
#61 Posted by harimau on May 24, 2004 10:38:44 am
Ref nb #40
[I see your point, harimau, ......]
How come not one Commie/Leftie/Pakistani had any comment?
How would the frikking Leftists of India have reacted if Rajiv Gandhi had married an American? Would they support a US-born white woman for Prime Minister of India? How would they reconcile their reflexive anti-US stand with an American becoming India`s prime minister? How about the security implications of that when the US still refuses to recognize India as a nuclear weapons state and wants India to get rid of her weapons and hand over har cache of plutonium to the US?
After all, didn`t India take over Sikkim when it decided it would no longer tolerate that American woman Hope Cooke and her antics as the Queen of Sikkim?
All of you Indians claiming that it is perfectly okay for Sonia to become the Prime Minister, why don`t you answer my question about a Pakistani woman or an American woman becoming the Prime Minister of India? Cat got your tongue, you frikking idiots?
[Now, does anyone know why the authorities in the US questioned Rahul? Did it have something to do with the Colombian link?]
The facts will never come out. It will all be used to blackmail Rahul when he becomes the Prime Minister (another thing to remember when you all clamor for Rahul to become the PM of India). The US maintains a file on every person who ever came into the US and the file never gets destroyed.
If you are in the US, you can try obtaining the file under the Freedom of Information Act. You won`t get it until after Rajiv dies.... because only Rajiv can ask to see his file while he is alive.... you can ask after his death for studying the history of US-Indian relations...even then it will be censored.
Any of you who thinks I am paranoid just have to find out what info was maintained on John F. Kennedy by the FBI to know the truth.
[I see your point, harimau, ......]
How come not one Commie/Leftie/Pakistani had any comment?
How would the frikking Leftists of India have reacted if Rajiv Gandhi had married an American? Would they support a US-born white woman for Prime Minister of India? How would they reconcile their reflexive anti-US stand with an American becoming India`s prime minister? How about the security implications of that when the US still refuses to recognize India as a nuclear weapons state and wants India to get rid of her weapons and hand over har cache of plutonium to the US?
After all, didn`t India take over Sikkim when it decided it would no longer tolerate that American woman Hope Cooke and her antics as the Queen of Sikkim?
All of you Indians claiming that it is perfectly okay for Sonia to become the Prime Minister, why don`t you answer my question about a Pakistani woman or an American woman becoming the Prime Minister of India? Cat got your tongue, you frikking idiots?
[Now, does anyone know why the authorities in the US questioned Rahul? Did it have something to do with the Colombian link?]
The facts will never come out. It will all be used to blackmail Rahul when he becomes the Prime Minister (another thing to remember when you all clamor for Rahul to become the PM of India). The US maintains a file on every person who ever came into the US and the file never gets destroyed.
If you are in the US, you can try obtaining the file under the Freedom of Information Act. You won`t get it until after Rajiv dies.... because only Rajiv can ask to see his file while he is alive.... you can ask after his death for studying the history of US-Indian relations...even then it will be censored.
Any of you who thinks I am paranoid just have to find out what info was maintained on John F. Kennedy by the FBI to know the truth.
#62 Posted by rsridhar on May 24, 2004 10:38:44 am
re:#57 by sadna
Sadnaji,
I hope u realize that India is a democracy but not an ``enlightened democracy``.
That is why people elect ``popular leaders`` without questioning their credentials.
We have Lalloo Yadav who has some criminal cases pending against him in court and one of his muslim colleagues who is actually a political goon. Then we have some ``Purana Paapis`` like AR Antulay, Sharad Pawar etc back on the political saddle.
India has miles to go before it is in the same league as Western democracies.
Sridhar
Sadnaji,
I hope u realize that India is a democracy but not an ``enlightened democracy``.
That is why people elect ``popular leaders`` without questioning their credentials.
We have Lalloo Yadav who has some criminal cases pending against him in court and one of his muslim colleagues who is actually a political goon. Then we have some ``Purana Paapis`` like AR Antulay, Sharad Pawar etc back on the political saddle.
India has miles to go before it is in the same league as Western democracies.
Sridhar
#63 Posted by rsridhar on May 24, 2004 10:38:44 am
re: #59 by dost-mittar
DM ji,
This is what i wrote:
``India`s very existence rests on the tripod of secularism, democracy and socialism (with an increasing share of free market nowadays).``
Free market is essential to unleash the potential of each person according to his/her talent and generate money. Money so generated has to be equitably distributed to the poor through polcies aimed at benefitting the poor. That is what i meant by ``free market with socialism``. While generating money is the job of individual entrepreuners, MNCs and the big industrialists, distributing it equitably (at least trying to do so) is government`s job.
Sridhar
DM ji,
This is what i wrote:
``India`s very existence rests on the tripod of secularism, democracy and socialism (with an increasing share of free market nowadays).``
Free market is essential to unleash the potential of each person according to his/her talent and generate money. Money so generated has to be equitably distributed to the poor through polcies aimed at benefitting the poor. That is what i meant by ``free market with socialism``. While generating money is the job of individual entrepreuners, MNCs and the big industrialists, distributing it equitably (at least trying to do so) is government`s job.
Sridhar
#64 Posted by arjun_m on May 24, 2004 10:39:06 am
=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts
view this users filtered interacts
Interact Index
Latest Interacts
- shoaib_daniyal: Re: # 154 Beena, Yes, but... India-Pakistan: Empathy, grief in
- MaheshG: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/03/world/asia/03mumbai.html?hp U.S. and India See... Pleas For Sanity as
- majumdar: Cobes, They did indirectly and... The Future of Indo
- KaalChakra: "Only time will tell." No,... Terror in Mumbai.....and also
- BJ2: Hamidm2 miaN, when the... India-Pakistan: Empathy, grief in
- hamidm2: Re: # 3 kaal mian, ...... Pleas For Sanity as
- dullabhatti: this article seems to... The Future of Indo
- hamidm2: Re: # 292 salim mian, ....... India-Pakistan: Empathy, grief in
