A Bold Agenda for United Progressive Alliance (UPA)

bhai dost-mitter sahib -- indeed I was thrilled at the obvious and logical choice -- in fact on one of your boards about SOnia Gandhi -- I had blurted to Aleph Null that Sonia should nominate Dr. Manmohan Singh -- it was good to see that she heard me...:-) -- it`s indeed a revolution of ``rising expectation`` amid abundance for more than a few -- but poverty for STILL ...a lot.....

one must give credit that Vajpayee through his successful economic policy -- did raise the threshold of Indian masses expectations -- that in turn saw not even a semblance of trickle down coming their way....while a premature crude and crass salt rubbing celeberation of `India Shining` was going on for the majority of poverty wounded masses...

and that was Vajpayee`s undoing....the pissed off rural electorate just PUT some Bhung in Bjp Rung.....

As the economist friend of Manhohan Singh rightly writes about the Prime Minister: ``His work is cut out for him. But we cannot have hoped for a better leader as we stand now on the next cusp of change as India moves forward on its historic war on poverty.``....

indeed....it is good to know that among the Whirling Dervishes of the IT industries giddiness -- someone will still remember to offer one or two dances to a few damsels of silenty sitting Indian Masses....invited inside the globalization TENT...instead of being kept outside -- shivering in the eternally long cold night.....

to all pakistanis...give it up..get over it...you cannot compare your country with india...throw the chip on your shoulder away...as an indian i`m praying for the day the govt. will let those worthless , lazy kashmiris become prey for the greedy pak-punjabi by letting them go...let them rue the day they turned their nasty smelling, unwashed selves on a multicultural, democratic,industrial and technological power, namely india...the day pakistanis realize that their actions have only resulted in a failed state propped up by outside forces so as not to destabilize the region and undemine the efforts towrds progression of a resurgent india in whose fortunes the world has a profitable stake in , that`ll be the day that , hopefully, saner forces will prevail in pakistan and give up the virulent , bigoted actions that have been pursued so far...i have no hope.

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nasah saheb:
Here is what the eminent economist had to say about the election results while praising the election of his close and long-standing friend, Manmohan Singh: http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IEH20040522142618&Page=H&Title=Top+Stories&Topic=0&

Excerpt:

``The very success of our policies has led to their demands for more. Until the mid-80s when our failed policies produced low growth rates and little impact on poverty, we could have had the ``revolution of falling expectations.`` But that revolution did not transpire: when little is happening, our fatalism returns, as does acceptance of poverty as destiny. But when things improve, and the poor see possibilities, the revolution of rising expectations occurs.

This is not to be deplored. The poor, who bundled out Mrs. Indira Gandhi after the Emergency, were voting for ``political freedom``: the vasectomy drive, among other things, had alarmed the poor who were targeted. Now, among other factors that determined the vote in our complex economy and society, they are voting for economic prosperity to accelerate for them.``

re:#79 by Romair
This idiot is at it again. Ths same old story.

I had kicked his A$$ many times in the past but he never learns. That is why u are an ex-fauji i guess, Romoron. You need to develop a thick skin to be one.

``Pakistani Kashmiris will 100% vote to join Pakistan (I will vote twice) ``
Romoron,
When was the last time your part of Kashmir had a free election? You guys are such nincompoops that u need to be told that nobody, i mean nobody ever gets a 100% vote, even in a referendum where there is a ``wave`` in favor of the topic being voted for.
And, voting twice!
Ha, ha, ha.
I am sure it happens only in Pakistan.
Forger about Kashmir, mian.
This new govt will now be talking about Shimla agreement. Whatever transpired between ABV and Mushy is an old story.
Sridhar

re:#89 by dost-mittar
``And I started wondering why would a rational person like you do so?``
Are u kidding?
This guy Romair is one of the most irrational persons i have ever encountered on Chowk. His ideas on Kashmir are pretty much fixated. You can`t win him over with logic. With a kick in the butt, yes, but not with logic.
Sridhar

Romair # 79


“If you ask Pakistani Kashmiris, when they will join Pakistan, they will tell you that they are waiting for their brethren on the other side of the border to get free, first. “

The folks on the other side of the border are free, they elect their own govt. and are masters of their own destiny. When was the last time you had a free and fair election in POK.

“Very few Indians have any idea about what is going on in Indian Kashmir.”

I just visited Kashmir last month. I must say hats off to Mufti and Co for really changing things there.

“- Given the chance, Indian Kashmiris (at least in the Valley) will overwhelmingly vote to separate from India
- Pakistani Kashmiris will 100% vote to join Pakistan (I will vote twice) “

I am not sure about that things have really change in the valley and its booming. I think when folks from POK see their success they are bound to vote for India.

“India cannot control the insurgency in Kashmir, even if the insurgency doesn`t have Pakisatani support The population of Kashmir is more pro-insurgent, than pro-India. That is how the insurgents survive, with local support. That is why the insurgency is still going on today and the elections were attacked and boycotted “

India just controlled the insurgency in Kashmir, we have successfully persuaded Musharraf to stop sending his jihadis. If the population was pro insurgents why are the insurgent not as effective as they used to be. The people voted in Kashmir, most sane people fear for their life so did kashmiries. But they did defy the jihadis in large numbers and voted both in the state elections and the recent general elections.

“- The human rights violations in Kashmir, according to international Human rights sources, are so huge, that it will open a Pandora`s box for India, if they start coming out (I say this with all seriousness and with references) “

The excesses by the security forces are unfortunate. They should have done better. But I don’t think there is anything left to come out in large part due to Pakistan.


“- India has crossed the point of being able to successfully integrate Kashmir with India. It hasn`t been able to do so, over 55 years, and with all the killings now, it is beyond the point of no return “

I just came back from the valley last month. I meet Kashmiris who do business with us regularly. I think you are wrong.

“However an overwhelming portion of Paksitani population (according to surveys) does consider a solution to Kashmir central to peace with India, ie. no govt. in Pakistan can survive if it shortsells Kashmir “

The Pakistani population does not matter. We just have to make a deal with Musharraf or the Pakistani Army.

“I know of only one that will work, and which to a great deal matches the voting patterns. Pakistan gets Azad Kashmir. India gets Jammu and Ladakh (or most of it). The Valley becomes an independent entity, either on its own, or with joint control of some sort, between India, Pakistan and UN, or UN, or just India/UN etc. The Valley is actually very tiny. Most Indians probably don`t even know where it starts, where it finishes etc. “

I doubt any Indian govt. can give an inch of land to Pakistan.

As far as the rest of your post I can only say that Gulam Nabi Azad is back in Power. Expect some fireworks……….



Ragards,


Faruk

DM

``

To me the answer is obvious. To you, despite your education and enlightenment, your religious identity is more important than anything else and you associate that identity more with a muslim Pakistan than an avowedly secular India. And herein lies the reason why the `freedom movement` in Kashmir receives very little sympatyhy in the rest of the world despite the widespread human rights violations by the Indian occupation forces...it is perceived as nothing more than a movement of freedom from Kaafirs; such a movement does not get much sympathy in today`s world.

``

you hit the nail..right there on the TOP.

arjun_m #83
``That`s so frikking vague, academic, lacking in practical value ``

Depends on the listener. To me it is a reminder that economy does better with 85% literacy than 65 % literacy, that basic education, basic health and basic contraception do not trickle down.

It means that if roads are left entirely to the private sector, only rich people will have roads to their houses and factories, that if water supply is left entirely to private sector, only industries and big customers will have water, and we will only get even more of our countryside migrating to sleep on city pavements.

Being a democracy unlike China the governments would not be able banish them from the pavements. Whether it makes sense on any count to have humongous super cities where most of our 1 billion population lives on the streets is debatable.

And to be more specific : 65% of our GDP comes from the unorganised sector only 35% from the organised sector. With a total workforce of 350 million, only about 30 million are in the organised sector. A 10% growth in EMPLOYMENT(not 10% GDP growth) in the organised sector for 10 years will yield only 68 million jobs.

The alternative to putting every one on ships to other countries or feeding them philosophy, is to make the unorganised sector/countryside more productive. Which brings us back to China..

Romair,

I am, as ever, in awe of your abilities of political clairvoyance, analysis
of Pakistani threat projection (economic and military) vis a vis India and
unbounded optimism - not to forget the deep concern for global human
rights.

Let me, however, tell you how it works from an Indian perspective. Not
many people have been to the valley (as opposed to several Pakistanis
who have, evidently), but even fewer people have been to Nagaland. Do
you honestly believe that Indian Tamils would be okay to a football field`s
worth of land seceding from Nagaland ?

This is simply how sovereign countries react to attempted and perceived
land grabs. The English are not deeply emotionally invested in the Falklands
either.

By the way, Pakistani Kashmir having it`s own president is all well and good.
You do forget the allegiance to Pakistan that he has to sign, in order to be
the president.

Romair:
Your powerful post has effectively hijacked this thread. I was hoping to get some reactions from you re. the article; instead it was the same-old, same-old. My response would probably also be same-old, except that I saw something new in your post, namely,
``Pakistani Kashmiris will 100% vote to join Pakistan (I will vote twice)``

And I started wondering why would a rational person like you do so?
-you have met many Indians and you found them to be very decent people; so it couldn`t be because you think that Indians are evil;
-it couldn`t be to protect your kashmiri identity....you and your people have lost your kashmiriyat, your language and your culture, while that language and culture is flourishing on the Indian side....indeed you have even lost your majority on your side;
-you are in the IT field and you probably would like your children have to access to the best possible educational facilities available at IITs and IIMs;
-you need to network with the people in the IT field for which being Indian would be more advantageous than being a Pakistani;
-you aspire to be a successful businessman and would prefer to have access to a $600 billion market than a $60 billion market (rough figures, did not check the correct figures);
-you are a great champion of minority rights. So, you would prefer to be in a country whose largest minority has increased its share of the population rather than the one in which the largest minority has dwindled to a small fraction of its earlier number; more importantly, this once proud minority is now so crushed and frightened that you do not even hear a squeaky `chooN` from them; all they can do is leave the country, start answering the azaan or accept whatever is in their karma; and finally,
-you have to travel a lot and you would rather carry a passport which carries increasing respect rather than the one which invites harsh scrutiny;

To me the answer is obvious. To you, despite your education and enlightenment, your religious identity is more important than anything else and you associate that identity more with a muslim Pakistan than an avowedly secular India. And herein lies the reason why the `freedom movement` in Kashmir receives very little sympatyhy in the rest of the world despite the widespread human rights violations by the Indian occupation forces...it is perceived as nothing more than a movement of freedom from Kaafirs; such a movement does not get much sympathy in today`s world.

But I would like to end on a note of agreement rather than disagreement. You say that:
``From Pakistan`s side, Pakistan needs to sit back for five to ten years, and try to get 7-8% economic growth rates (quite possible now), for the time being, and keep encouraging India to solve Kashmir....... ``
This is exactly what India should do, too, while the two countries try to live like normal neighbours. If this happens, Kashmir will not be the sole focus of the Indo-Pak relations and divested of the emotional capital invested in it on both sides, and hence much more amenable to the rational give and take necessary to have a lasting, peaceful solution to this difficult problem.

Independant kashmir, a vision,

There are no freedom fighters in kashmir. It is all lashker e toibas and hizbul mujahideen, it is all about creating an islamic state. That is the reason why the pakistanis imncluding the romairs want an independant kashmir. That will be a land where the jihadis have won, it will have the hoodood and blasphemy laws and rampant honour killings. It will not be hastled by the ghost of jinnah propped up by the YLHs, it will not have that one speach of jinnah quoted by the YLHs of pakistan.
It will be a true islamic country, fought and won by the jihadis, who have ethnically cleansed kasmir.
It is a true vision for the romairs of pakistan who can call the laskers and mujahideen as freedom fighters. The world really needs a country like kashmir, a true free country ruled by the hzibul mujahideen, like a hole in the head and heart. It is pathetic to see pakistanis talking about human rights when the infian troops are fighting the laskers and jihadis.

Karachi is new hub of Al-Qaeda: Pak Oppn party
Asian News International
Karachi, May 22

Karachi is emerging as the new centre of activity for the Al-Qaeda and the Taliban, claimed Dr Farooq Sattar, the parliamentary party leader of Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM).

Talking to reporters in Karachi, Sattar was quoted by The News as saying that these two extremist groups were receiving assistance from armed elements of local religious parties, who had been shifted to Karachi after the closure of jihadi chapters in Kashmir, Afghanistan and Wana.
//////
above is from hindustan times of today.

For romair this is another reason why pakistan should have a say in kashmir affairs.

A declaration by kashmiris,

Kashmiris always wanted to join pakistan largely because of the socil affinity and the law and order example pakistan has set for the islamic world. A spokes man for kashmiris quoted the specific report from an ordinary abdul pakistani, from dawn of today.

Robbers on the prowl



The two letters (May 10 and 14) on the above subject highlight the crime wave in various blocks of Karachi`s North Nazimabad. Perhaps it needs no further elaboration to make the point. As most of the robberies have gone unreported to the area`s police, for one reason or another, this has emboldened the anti-social elements to indulge in their nefarious activities with impunity.

Besides frequent police patrolling, an eye has to be kept on prowlers who, on finding an opportunity, burst into a house, leaving the inmates stunned and agape. As very rightly demanded, streetlights are also needed to deter intruders. Will the KESC see to it?

I request residents to introduce a chowkidari system if it is feasible. In some areas of this metropolis this system has worked very well. A day and night chowkidari system can be easily supported by the residents by contributing their mite.

A RETIREE

Karachi

``yogiraj#40:
``Do you know education is a state issue and taxing it by FEDs will need constitutional changes? And if you open this (I mean constitution for amendmend), why not one man / one woman? Why not... well.``

D-M

Thnaks for you responding.

Your response..

``I believe that it is a concurrent subject. Although primary education is a responsibility of the state governments, the Centre plays a role there as well through agencies like NCERT and adult literacy programs. I believe, through imaginative schemes, the Centre can find a mechanism of giving funds directly to panchayats through a cell in the planning commission and creating centre-state body. ``

What exactly is ``Primary`` education? upto std 4? I will re-iterate this question.

I only wish you will restrain youself and let constitution work. There should be only one (and one only ) responsible. Common sense. I also resent your proposal that Feds should fix all the problem, jus because they got voted in.

I do not want in ``My`` country`s Feds overstepping State to decide Panchayat is better.

Please keep these ideas to your now found love for country that professes ``Basic Democracy``. This is not anything against Pakistan. That is the way they want it. Advice them that way. However, it is my country, not yours. How more explicitly harsher I can be???

Also. If I do not like it I will protest. To hell with every outsider who thinks I am wrong. Sorry but no sorry. None of your business. None.

This is how India, my country, should work. Feds, State, District and then Panchayat

I was perhaps the worst hit by the system. I was, too, perhaps the best helped. I know system works slower than ever imagined. But it does.

If you can propose something that does not violate ``chain of command`` I am not only very open, I am more than interested. Including all the criticism you heap. Honest.

Two questions.

My mother is not known to be what is called as intelligent in ``Chowk`s`` definition. Poor woman does not even know what is internet. I think she is far more literate than what I call..

Question 1. What is education?

Being internet savvy? Say 2 + 2 is four? Or identify who is more honest and visionary? One who lets go short term gains (sacrifices) for long term?

Worst. My grandma never read a book. I was so hooked to her, I would wake up at least half hour early, ( very early in the morning) and wait and wait, so that I could tag along with her when she had the time.

She always told me, Yogiraj, the ones with you are the stakeholders. (With same as you.) You will be there, so will they be. But IF ever they have other stakes, reject them. All the time. No matter how well meaning.

Question 2. Who are the Stake holders as far as India goes?

Ones with remote control? (in Canada? Italy? Mecca?).

Yogiraj Patil