A Bold Agenda for United Progressive Alliance (UPA)

harimou#162
The best answer can be summed up in an urdu verse:
ibtidaye ishq hai rota hai kya
aage aage dekhiye hota hai kya
Roughly translated, it means that it is just the start of the affair, wait and see what happens next!
As the article says, there are too many unknowns at the present time. We can revisit this subject in six months. I hope that both of us hope that I am right and you are wrong!

Well, Mr. Dost-Mittar, let us see how bold Mr. Manmohan Singh and Mr. Chidambaram get in the face of the loonies of the Left wing.

From Rediff:

The core problem for Chidambaram

June 05, 2004


It is hard not to feel a little sorry for P Chidambaram. He had to contend with a very odd set of cabinet colleagues during his tenure as finance minister in 1996. This time the colleagues are odder still.

Since government is largely about teamwork, it will be interesting to see how things turn out for him. Much will depend on the sort of support he gets from his prime minister. He didn`t get any last time.

Neither Deve Gowda nor Gujral -- how does it feel to have such men as your boss, I wonder -- understood what Mr Chidambaram was attempting. In fact, Gujral let him down badly over the manner in which the Fifth Pay Commission`s recommendations were to be implemented.

That may not happen this time but, really, how much prime ministerial support can he count on? This is the million-dollar question. No answer is available as yet.

P V Narasimha Rao recently said that he stood ``like a rock`` behind his finance minister, Manmohan Singh. If so, he must have been a rather shaky rock because within three months of becoming finance minister, in September 1991, Manmohan Singh resigned over the fertiliser subsidy issue. (Rao, however, had turned down his resignation).

The prime minister had failed to back him against two of his own cabinet colleagues, who would not support any increase at all. One of those is back now and remains as populist as ever.

Mr Chidambaram is made of sterner stuff and will not quit easily. But it will take all his will power to, as the Americans say, hang in there. One wishes him luck. He is going to need rather a lot of it.

Some of it has already come his way. His predecessor, Jaswant Singh, has left him in clover. Mr Chidambaram has been gracious enough to acknowledge this. But, as everyone knows, it takes very little time to run through legacies.

The forex reserves could begin to trickle away, especially if the external affairs minister continues to irritate the US with such single-minded devotion.

With the Left in full flow, strikes could happen. High oil prices could end low inflation. Mani Shankar Aiyar, the petroleum minister, has already said that the government is not going to raise the price of petrol, diesel, kerosene and LPG.

Political compulsions could increase revenue expenditure and therefore the revenue deficit. In fact, with divestment cancelled, this is certain. The only question now is by how much.

In coalition cabinets, as Yashwant Sinha discovered, disasters lurk behind every file, especially in the beginning when everyone is trying out for size. It takes supreme prime ministerial tact, guile and determination to remove the veto and the accompanying demand that everyone sports in his or her pocket.

Dr Singh and Mr Chidambaram will have to deal with several of these vetoers, often simultaneously. Sharad Pawar, Laloo Prasad, Ram Vilas Paswan, T R Baalu, Dayanidhi Maran are all members of the Cabinet Committee on Economic Affairs. And as only three members of the CCEA are from the Congress, they are in a majority.

Mr Vajpayee`s CCEA had 14 ministers, 9 of them from the BJP. That made a difference when it was sought which, in the beginning, was not often.

Jaswant Singh was very lucky. He came into the finance ministry towards the end of the NDA government. By then Mr Vajpayee was in full control. Manmohan Singh is not, at least not yet. With the No 10 factor, he may never be.

Whence the biggest similarity between this government and the NDA -- if Mr Vajpayee had to contend with the Sangh Parivar, Dr Singh and Mr Chidambaram will have to contend with ``The Parivar`` at No 10. This could become their main problem.

In this government, elements like Laloo will want the lion`s share of the extra spending, either for their own states or for increasing the subsidies that their ministries dole out. This is precisely where the prime minister`s support would be needed.

It would be very surprising if it was forthcoming in the measure required. He knows that a dog with a bone in its mouth doesn`t bark.

For the first three years, Mr Vajpayee also did not support his finance minister, who was left to twist slowly in the wind. The result of being thus abandoned was that Mr Sinha ended up doing a lot of damage to the economy -- mostly, he says, against his will.

In that sense, the NDA government and this one are almost identical. Amongst other things, they are the first ones where the finance minister is starting from a weaker position than his cabinet colleagues.

This is because of two reasons. One, in both, to start with the prime minister was not fully in control. And, two, the political weight of Mr Chidambaram is equal to that of Mr Sinha, somewhere around zero but not negative.

Taken together this adds up to a great structural weakness in this government. Never have the PM and the FM combined been as weak as this. That is why shoulders are drooping. You can forget about investment as long this weakness persists.

But it need not, as we saw in the NDA government. There are two ways out of the problem. One is that, in due course, the country gets a new prime minister. There was a time, around 2001, when the first almost happened in the NDA government.

Or, alternatively, the one in office succeeds in gaining full control as Mr Vajpayee did. He cleverly used the NDA allies against his opponents to do this. Will Manmohan Singh be able to do the same thing? If he does, it will be as big a surprise as his becoming prime minister.

But that is in the future. For the moment, the NDA legacy has given Mr Chidambaram considerable room for manoeuvre. Only one finance minister before this, V P Singh, enjoyed a similar luxury, albeit on a much smaller scale. And he was very effective as long as he had the prime minister`s support.

This means that Mr Chidambaram doesn`t have to do anything other than give a long winded speech. But he need not raise taxes or even try to cut subsidies this time. All he has to do is to simply re-present Jaswant`s Singh`s interim budget after attaching a few knobs and bells to it.

If nothing else, it will be consistent with the minimum part of the Common Minimum Programme.

More from Rediff:

False debate on `India shining`

June 05, 2004


It is an old trait: lots of people actually like bad news, and they don`t treat the good news as a welcome development. Indeed, good news makes many people who run what one might call the ``bad news industry`` get very upset indeed.

Perhaps breastbeating gives some of us greater satisfaction than the thought of economic well-being. And so it is that if the National Sample Survey tells us that poverty increased in the reform years, a whole army jumps at it as proof that something terrible is going on in the name of reform.

If the NSS says the opposite, that poverty has come down, people think the government is fabricating the statistics. If the stock market drops 3 per cent of its value, the headlines are bigger than when the market climbs by the same percentage.

In the days when the advent of the Indian middle class was still a novel subject, anyone touting the thesis had to counter not just criticism but even hostility.

It is another facet of the same syndrome that makes it politically incorrect now to argue that India is in fact ``shining`` (to use the ad man`s phrase).

To make this claim does not mean that everyone in the country is having a good time, or that all our age old problems have been solved.

But it is fair to say that things are getting better, and as Mr Chidambaram is willing to testify, the economic situation that he has to handle is quite comfortable. But woe betide the old government for having said so. It deserved to lose the election for its effrontery.

The context here is the assumption by the Congress-led alliance that job growth in the reform era has been poor, that unemployment has grown and that something needs to be done about it.

In short, there is bad news and we need correctives. The correctives are spelt out in the ruling alliance`s Common Minimum Programme: employment guarantee programmes, possibly job reservation in the private sector, sticking with the existing labour laws (UPA`s short-hand being ``no hire and fire``), and so on.

Sunil Jain in his columns had punctured this whole ``bad news`` thesis. He pointed out that if job growth slowed in recent years, so did population growth -- and the wage trends do not suggest rising unemployment.

He also pointed out that job growth has been good in the manufacturing sector, which has seen reform; and poor in the agriculture sector, where there has been no reform.

He quoted both statistics and the experts to show that India has been missing the job growth opportunities that come with more foreign investment in labour-intensive export activity -- which China has capitalised on.

That India`s counter-productive policies in areas like weaving and infrastructure have prevented the growth of jobs in these sectors. Indeed, the Left-ruled states (and the Left is in the forefront of the jobs debate) have so far had slower job growth than more capitalist states like Gujarat.

Most of all, there is the bald truth that rapid growth by itself achieves quite a lot on the employment front. All of this could perhaps be short-handed to argue that there is precious little that is wrong with the reform programme, except that there hasn`t been enough of it.

This is certainly not to argue that there is no unemployment in India, but to suggest that the UPA`s understanding of this very important problem is defective and probably born out of the syndrome that makes people dislike good news.

The result is that it is barking up the wrong tree with its preferred solutions, when the old arguments of reformers probably hold more water: create a flexible labour market instead of trying to protect the high-wage islands, get rid of small-scale reservations so as to allow the growth of labour-intensive industries, reform agriculture and create the infrastructure to support rapid economic growth.

The reformers in the UPA government may have exactly these policies and objectives in mind, but they will be hamstrung by the assertions of the Common Minimum Programme. More`s the pity.

Ref AlephNull #160

It is not a Common Minimum Program, it is the Lowest Common Denominator!

When Judge Carswell was rejected by the US Senate for the US Supreme Court on the basis that his judicial record was mediocre, Sen. Roman Hruska of Nebraska protested saying that mediocre people need representation too.

In India, it seems like stupidity needs more than its share of representation!

Govt to pursue job quota in private sector: Paswan

Oh dear, Harimau
I know you`re talking to someone else, but where`s the need to even bring up rape? No one denies that it has traditionally been used as an instrument of power, to subdue the conquered and generally make a point. Nor should anyone deny that it was used by Muslim invaders in India over centuries, but we know all this....it is part of our racial memories. Why go on? Why talk of eunuchs? I may not agree with all you say, but you seem like a smart man, why this?

Ref sadna #155

[....what is next, harems of concubines?]

Unfortunately, since you are female, we can`t have you castrated and serve as the eunuch guard of the harem.

Will the left have more influence on Manmohan Singh than the RSS outfits had on the Vajpayee govt.? Watch and see!

``Sangh Parivar outfit praises UPA`s CMP

June 01, 2004 19:53 IST


The Congress-led United Progressive Alliance government on Tuesday received commendation for its Common Minimum Programme from an unexpected quarter as the Swadeshi Jagran Manch hailed the document as `a good beginning`.

The Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh-affiliated organisation said the new coalition had `attempted to reflect the aspirations of the common man and balance the growth imperatives`.

``The Common Minimum Programme appears to disseminate the message that the government is serious about welfare of farmers, artisans, workers and weaker sections of society,`` SJM national convener Muralidhar Rao told reporters in Delhi.

Also Read




Common Minimum Programme





``It can be called a good beginning but there is a long road to be travelled between promises and implementation,`` he said.

Claiming that the economic policies of the National Democratic Alliance government were largely responsible for its defeat, Rao said, ``Except for its stand on WTO issues, NDA`s economic policies were rejected by the electorate.``

The divestment of PSUs `definitely` played a part in NDA`s debacle as `even those who support divestments think it was done wrongly`.

Rao said the electorate had given a `mandate` for greater focus on agriculture, unorganised and small-scale sectors and development with employment.``

mohar11#153:
``I am not sure why you are giving these folks the benefit of doubt.``

You may call it wishful thinking.:).

But seriously, there is reason to believe what I do. Given the nature of the mandate and the role of the leftists in the formualtion of the CMP, those kind of platitudes were inevitable even if the job of writing it were to be given to arjun-m. But the drivers of the policy and programs are going to be the likes of Manmohan Singh and Chidambram and they have kept those loopholes to ensure that they will be able to drive their trucks through them whenever needed.

harimau #154
``Historically, any slave consignment would have been the province of the Islamist thugs.``

Precisely. The extent to which loser Sanghis strive to be like their purported enemies of the past, it looks suspiciously like pure jealousy. We have seen rampages of destruction, rape and murder by these wannabes, what is next, harems of concubines?

Ref sadna #152

[Your concern for bhajan singing does not fool anyone here - it is clear that in common with loser Sanghis of your kidney, you are waiting for the day when you get your pick of the latest slave consignment.]

Historically, any slave consignment would have been the province of the Islamist thugs, which conveniently escapes your attention.

Yaaaaawn.

DM
//...Those loopholes have been put there for a purpose! ...//

Yes - the purpose is to fend off criticism from people who know better.

These folks have no intention of following the right policy. Protecting steel plants and car makers doesn`t serve poor or rural sector - it in fact acts against their interests - like it has for last 50 years.

I am not sure why you are giving these folks the benefit of doubt.

harimau #150
Your concern for bhajan singing does not fool anyone here - it is clear that in common with loser Sanghis of your kidney, you are waiting for the day when you get your pick of the latest slave consignment.

harimou#149
I think that you meant suzuki and not subaru.

mohar11:
Those loopholes have been put there for a purpose!

Ref dost-mittar #146

[arjun-m:

I do not see any problem in having a profit making unit in the public sector as long as it is subject to the market discipline. Take for example the Maruti Enterprise; as long as it has to compete with other car makers without any subsidy or preferential treatment by the government, selling it or not should be governed only by the interest of the public as a shareholder in that enterprise, which would include the alternative use of the potential proceeds of sale by the public.]

Well, there is only so much Maruti can do to sell a 1985 Subaru in competition with a 2000-or-later Hyundai, Indica, Daewoo, Mitsubishi, Skoda, Toyota, Ford or GM. Lower price isn`t the only answer. Nor is that breadbox on wheels known as the Maruti van. Particularly when people are lusting after Mercedes-Benzes.

So a few months back, the company sold a substantil portion of its outstanding shares to Subaru of Japan. If I recall correctly, Subaru now is the majority shareholder in Maruti Udyog.

PS. We have a saying in Tamil about trying to make a (clay) Ganesh and ending up with a monkey... sort of a comment about poor workmanship or unintended consequences. I think in this case Sanjay Gandhi started out trying to make a monkey (Maruti = Hanuman) so we all know what kind of an abortion resulted until Subaru was brought in to rescue the project.

Ref sadna #119

[`` it should be okay for Congress thugs to target Indian Muslims and Sikhs while simultaneously cheating the Hindus for personal enrichment and continuation of dynastic policies. ``

Yup, you personally prefer that the BJP does this instead.]

You on the other hand would prefer that Hindus be burnt alive for the crime of singing bhajans in public in India.

It seems you just can`t wait for the return of the Golden Age of Aurangzeb.

arjun_m

//...When a ship sails, the bow goes first, then the stern....someone has to benefit first....you`re looking for a ship that sails sideways....both bow and stern in line.... //

Good one :)

DM
//...The CMP is full of general platitudes but it is full of loopholes ...//

Yeah - that`s just a consolation , a hope against the odds.

Look - at this point, the right economic policies would have been to go full steam ahead with privatization and labor reforms and reinvestment of monies in right sectors, redirection of capitals. Instead, we have a pledge to exactly the opposite.....with much-vaunted ``loopholes`` .... basically we are clutching at some straws in the wind.

The tragedy is : Some thirty years ago, our great ``leader`` were giving us the same platitudes - garibi hatao, pro-poor, socialism, rural sector etc .... and doing exactly wrong things .... while countries like south korea and japan were going full steam ahead with what needs to be done. And now these countries are first world nations. And we are still talking about pro-poor, socialism and we have with $400 per-capita income ... and our jacka$$ ``leaders`` are still mouthing the same old lines.

And I am sure - 20 years down the line - when other nations like china would be breaking into first world - our leaders would still be saying the same thing. Indians would still be poor, still trapped in the same third world miseries.

We never seem to learn. We suspend all logic .... and lap up same old lies from the same old hags, dynasties, commies and criminals. It`s never-ending spectacle of stupidity and hope against hope.

It`s disgusting to see a bunch of morons hijack a nation that could do so much for itself ... and people who are supposed to know better are closing their eyes and going along with heist.

Shame on us all.

Maharana:
This is indeed an area of concern. Although I approve of Manmohan Singh, I had remarked earlier that we do not want to see the ``jamalification`` of the Prime Minister`s office. In that sense, it would have been better to have Sonia as a weak prime minister dependent upon strong and competent ministers than a politically weak prime minister depending for his survival on a strong Sonia outside the government.

I think that Musharraf broke the protocol by directly inviting Sonia. If she had to be invited, the invitation should have come from the leader of the Pakistan Muslim League or some other political party. The only redeeming feature is that the response came from the Minister of Externa Affairs and not from Sonia directly.

I hope that Sonia will learn not to interfere with the matters of day-to-day governance, although she does have some right to provide input on policy matters to the government.

arjun-m:

I do not see any problem in having a profit making unit in the public sector as long as it is subject to the market discipline. Take for example the Maruti Enterprise; as long as it has to compete with other car makers without any subsidy or preferential treatment by the government, selling it or not should be governed only by the interest of the public as a shareholder in that enterprise, which would include the alternative use of the potential proceeds of sale by the public.

Mohar11:
``India`s economic progress is going to slow down for sure.``

I wont be so certain. The CMP is full of general platitudes but it is full of loopholes like, ``no automatic hire and fire`` or no privatisation unless in public interest. I think that, after a short interval, reforms will continue in the slow and steady way that they have in the past 12-13 years. There was no torrent of labour reforms or privatisation even during the NDA period. However, the NDA had been able to create a strong pro-business image for India and it may take some time for that image to return. And when it does, it will be with the added advantage of the image of a stable India at peace with itself.

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Ref Maharana #139

[Soon the only ``progressive`` parties in india will be .....temple building, hymn singing donkey bhaktas.]

Hey Soysauce, looks like Maharana has got another nick for you!

Ref dost-mittar #135

[I think that we have gone through this before. It is not a question of numbers but of the criminal attitude of the government - or the neglect of the `raj dharma` as Vajpayee put it... it is when the chief minister justifies the murder of the innocents by blaming the whole community for the action of the few - it is when the administration takes a cue from him and colludes with the marauders - it is when he then takes credit for it and is proudly used by the party as its mascot in elections in the same state and elsewhere.
The only other time this happened was in Delhi in 1984.]

The man who justified the Delhi riots went on to become the Prime Minister of India and his widow has become the most powerful person in India now.

At least Modi had the compulsions of having to face the electorate soon and so looked the other way when street justice was meted out in Gujarat. What was Rajiv`s excuse when he already had the Prime Ministership delivered to him by the Congress flunkies?

Or, is it okay in India to kill followers of any religion except Islam?

rsridhar
//....India`s economic progress mayslow down but it will be a good thing if rural sector gets proper attention this time....//

It`s a big IF. And chances are more it`s not going to happen - rural sector or any other sector for that matter - is not going to get what it needs to grow and succeed. Commies and laloos have never done it in their lifetime - and now that they have already been given the much-vaunted ``serving the poor`` title ( free of charge - with nothing to show for that credit ) they have no incentive to do it.

India`s economic progress is going to slow down for sure.

rsridhar

Any govt serious about helping rural sector has to first pile up on capital - it needs massive amount of money. The best way to get the capital is by freeing it from White Elephants commies love to call ``nine jewels``. You have to sell off these companies - free the hold up capital and build rural roads, cold-storage, river-linking, irrigation, electrification etc.

And yet - that`s the first thing commies did - stop the privatization process. How does protecting steel plants help the rural sector? From which source are the morons going to get capital? World bank, IMF - the favorite whipping boys? Taxes on the non-existent ``rich``? Taxes on NRI deposits?

On electrification - commies want to review electricity bill - a piece of forward looking legislation that has a chance of finally make dent in the massive gap in power sector. And yet - that`s exctly waht commies want to dismantle.

it`s unbelievable how people readily agree to get scr@@d - with eyes wide open.

Dost,

From Rediff today- Sonia is to visit pakistan soon.
What about the so called decision making authority (in this case the PM)?

I can see nothing progressive about UPA now. Should have seen the writing on the wall, when a gandhi cries for not being able to become PM, and anyway decides to run the show herself disregarding the actual PM. And the fools in india take her crying for ``the highest vedantic ideals``, while intellectuals are giddy with a secular government having communal murderers at the helm.
This is congress culture, even a donkey can vie for the highest office. The only qualification reuired is ``Gandhi``. The smarter ones like narsimha rao, rajesh pilot and others are kicked out.
I think congress party workers are competing with the DMK buffoons in trying to build a temple for her too. Soon the only ``progressive`` parties in india will be either the degenerate commies or temple building, hymn singing donkey bhaktas. We can truly pride ourselves with a secular and progressive governance. One in which even the PM becomes a pitiable puppet, while a gndhi clan calls the shot, much like the lallo clan in bihar.

Adios

rsridhar:
``The big question is: why is Lalloo Yadav so popular? Is it just among the Yadavs?``

Frankly, I do not know the answer. But I have heard different explanations.

- it is the caste politics and his alliance of yadavs and muslims.
- the bihari poor are amazed at the importance he has attained at the national level and take pride in someone who looks and talks just like them.
- he is really not popular; he has a network of goondas whom he keeps happy with liquor and small perks and lets them carry guns; they are used to scare villagers into voting for him.

The above are some of the examples quoted by people.

harimou:
``So, how many communal riots during the BJP`s rule and how many were killed? How many communal riots during Congress rule and how many were killed?``

I think that we have gone through this before. It is not a question of numbers but of the criminal attitude of the government - or the neglect of the `raj dharma` as Vajpayee put it... it is when the chief minister justifies the murder of the innocents by blaming the whole community for the action of the few - it is when the administration takes a cue from him and colludes with the marauders - it is when he then takes credit for it and is proudly used by the party as its mascot in elections in the same state and elsewhere.
The only other time this happened was in Delhi in 1984.

Ref dost-mittar #129

[Did I ever promise a rose garden with the Congress victory? All I said was that the defeat of the BJP would heal the communal divide; I didn`t even say that it will end communal riots.]

So, how many communal riots during the BJP`s rule and how many were killed? How many communal riots during Congress rule and how many were killed?

Shouldn`t statistics be the objective criteria for determining who causes communal divide and who heals it? Or is it the drumbeat of propaganda that we are supposed to accept?

re:#123 by mohar11
This is what happens if a party (BJP) pretends like it has solved all of India`s problems and is waiting to join the big league. India`s per capita income is slightly above 500$ as compared to about 35,000 for USA. 70% of India lives in villages and a lot of them live on less than 2 dollars a day income. Can any party then survive neglecting this huge mass of humanity that is struggling to survive?
Indian poor did not elect those goons who have become MPs today. They have rejected the BJP. That`s all. India`s economic progress mayslow down but it will be a good thing if rural sector gets proper attention this time.
Sridhar

re:#117 by niranjan
Now, what makes u think Pak will stop needling India once India hands over Kashmir to them?
You should have realized by now that Pak is a terrorist nation headed by a dictator Mushy. He may GUBO (Grease UP and Bend Over) for Uncle Sam but he has no love for the Indoos across the border. So, whether u give him Kashmir or not, he will continue to harm India.
Now, we have another Paki heading the J and K assembly. This woman Mehbooba Mufti did not criticise the militants when they recently killed BSF jawans and instead wants Kashmir problem to be solved. One thing India can do is to ship this woman and the likes of her to Pakistan.
Sridhar

re: BJP`s agenda
Do people in Chowk realize that BJP carefully hid a broader agenda? If only BJP were a truly secular party, it would have replaced Congress by now. If only BJP were truly concerned about the plight of the poor, and not just cared about the middle class and the NRIs, we would have seen BJP romp home with a majority. I am disappointed in BJP.
ABV is a good man. That is all i can say about him. If he were a statesman, he would have dismissed Modi and then all talks about secularism would have made sense.
BJP sounded pathetic when it started suddenly wooing the muslims midway through the elections and even got Imam Bukhari to speak in its favor! BJP and Sangh Parivar are concerned when some Dalit gets converted to christianity or Islam but do little to uplift the conditionof the dalits.
Where does BJP go from here?
If it wants to be a truly national party, it needs to shed its anti-muslim and anti minority agenda and embrace everybody. This is very difficult for RSS Chaddiwalas but this is the only way to be acceptable to all. Otherwise, BJP will always fall behind Congress in every election. And people will have no choice but to elect some goons and good-for-nothing politicians. That is how electoral politics in India is. Nobody said India is an enlightened democracy. It is just a democracy. That is all.
Sridhar
Sridhar

re:#113 by dost-mittar
The big question is: why is Lalloo Yadav so popular? Is it just among the Yadavs?
I think we have not seen any significant investment in Bihar during the BJP rule. I am aware of lawlessness in Bihar but let us not forget that even Chicago in the 30s was ruled by the Mafia. There is a cure to every problem and Bihar is no exception. May be, the man who knows Bihar best can also help cure its problems.
Sridhar

harimou:
Did I ever promise a rose garden with the Congress victory? All I said was that the defeat of the BJP would heal the communal divide; I didn`t even say that it will end communal riots.

In other areas, I expect the well-established traditions to continue. So, key cabinet posts have been given to unelected members. What`s new in that? Weren`t Jaswant Singh and Pramod Mahajan given key cabinet portfolios by Vajpayee after losing elections in 1998?

More bad news for Uncle Dost-Mittar. This is what the Common Minimum Program of the UPA has come to. From Rediff:

Besmirching Manmohan`s name

May 26, 2004

Well begun is half done. So what happens when the beginning is anything but auspicious? That is a question the new prime minister must answer.

Nobody in Delhi pretends that the Union Cabinet is controlled by Dr Manmohan Singh. (Or indeed that he is prime minister in anything but name!) But he came to office with the reputation of being a clean man, someone who would quit rather than compromise on principle. This is belied by the ministry that bears his name.

It is bad enough that the prime minister himself is not a member of the Lok Sabha. (Indeed, he is a man who lost his only bid for direct election to Parliament.) But what is worse is that his colleagues are men who have been rejected by the people mere weeks ago.

The Union home ministry has traditionally been recognised as one of the major offices of state, from Sardar Patel down to L K Advani. Why then has it been given to Shivraj Patil, a man who comes to Delhi fresh from his drubbing at the hands of his voters in Latur? The former MP is a very decent human being, but it is unethical to raise him to Sardar Patel`s chair at this point in time.

Sadly, this is not the only such instance. The Union power minister is an old friend, P M Sayeed. He has won, incredible though it sounds, 10 successive elections to the Lok Sabha from Lakshadweep. (He entered Parliament in 1967, 37 years ago; to put that into perspective, remember that Milind Deora, one of the younger MPs in this Lok Sabha, is a stripling of twenty-seven!) But the fact remains that P M Sayeed has lost in 2004. Rewarding him with a seat in the Union Cabinet is an insult to the voters.

That also goes for Union Minister of State for Civil Aviation Praful Patel who lost the election from Bhandara, Maharashtra. What exactly was the urgency that required Shivraj Patil, Praful Patel, and P M Sayeed to be sworn in just now?

Of course, merely winning an election does not suffice to qualify a man as minister. Look no farther than Laloo Prasad Yadav, Taslimuddin, and their fellows for proof. In 1996, the CPI-M protested vociferously when Taslimuddin was made minister of state in the home ministry by H D Deve Gowda. Why are the Communists silent today?

Third, there is the drama enacted by the DMK under Karunanidhi`s direction. I do not blame the DMK leader. He and his party never wanted to be in the Union Cabinet in the first instance; they were persuaded after the Congress offered a written guarantee that the DMK ministers would be given certain portfolios, including revenue and shipping. (Why the latter was offered to the leader of the Telangana Rashtra Samiti is beyond me, given that the proposed Telangana will be landlocked!)

The drama also gave away the worst-kept secret in Delhi, namely that the portfolios were being decided by Sonia Gandhi rather than the nominal prime minister. It was ultimately she who broke the deadlock by giving the DMK ministers their due.

Speculation is rife that Karunanidhi wanted the revenue department under his thumb to give Jayalalithaa something to remember. That is possible, but I suspect he also wanted to cut down the high-flying Union finance minister. The DMK supremo certainly didn`t like the fact that P Chidambaram is the highest ranking minister from Tamil Nadu.

Fourth, there is the curious Santosh Mohan Deb affair. He had been given independent charge of heavy industries and public enterprises with the rank of minister of state. Curiously, the aforementioned Taslimuddin was also pencilled into the same ministry, also with the rank of minister of state (albeit not with independent charge). Who was responsible for this stupidity?

Fifth, why didn`t anyone protest when several major states were not given their due? Having committed the sin of giving most of its seats to the Biju Janata Dal-Bharatiya Janata Party alliance, Orissa is completely unrepresented. Nor is there any minister of Cabinet rank from Karnataka. And what was the Sonia Gandhi coterie thinking when it could only find the Muslim League`s E Ahamed to represent Kerala in the Cabinet?

It is true that no Congress candidate was elected to the Lok Sabha from Kerala. But there are three veterans from Kerala cooling their heels in the Rajya Sabha -- K Karunakaran, Vayalar Ravi and T Balakrishna Pillai. Karunakaran is both a former chief minister and former Union Cabinet minister. Ravi was home minister of Kerala. Pillai is a former chief of the Kerala Pradesh Congress Committee. Couldn`t at least one of them have served?

Given the Congress party`s horrible performance in Kerala in the general election, none of them will risk bringing down the Antony government by way of revenge. But they will be brooding over the `insult` (as one supporter told me), and there will be long-term repercussions.

Nobody is giving anything more than lip service to the notion that poor Dr Manmohan Singh is anything but a figurehead. (Least of all the president of Pakistan, who has cheekily offered to hold talks with Sonia Gandhi directly!) But this ministry will go down in the record books as the Manmohan Singh government. Doesn`t Mr Clean care anything for his image?

Letter to Daily Times:

Sir,

In the wake of the AQ Khan scandal, with it becoming clear that Dr. Khan sold
nuclear technology to Iran, the Pakistani government should seriously consider
re-examining its stance on Iran`s nuclear program. The Iranians, like every
country that has ambitions to become a nuclear power, have stated that their
program is for civilian use, an argument that the Pakistanis also used in the
nascent stages of their program. The real purpose, however, is clear; to make
weapons of mass destruction.

Pakistan must work with the International community to ensure that Iran`s
nuclear program does not translate into a full-fledged weapons program. We
already have a strong neighbor on our East in India, and with relations being
strained with Afghanistan, a nuclear-armed Iran can pose serious challenges to
Pakistan`s interests. We must remember that Pakistan and Iran were essentially
fighting a proxy war in Afghanistan in the mid-1990s, so the notion that a
`brotherly` Muslim country would not challenge Pakistan`s interests is untrue,
as is also evident from Pakistan`s troubled relations with Afghanistan.

Pakistan has good relations with Iran and must continue further improving this
relationship, but must oppose any further nuclearization of a neighborhood that
is heavily armed. Our Iran policy (especially in relation to its nuclear
program) should be based on the realities of realpolitik, not the myths of an
Islamic Ummah.

Regards,

Taimur M. Khan
USA

A party with 16 seats in the Parliament, the DMK, is wagging the dog Congress.

And Dost-Mittar is proposing an agenda for the so-called UPA government? Thanks for the laughs.

DMK bargains hard, makes a killing

NEW DELHI: Karunanidhi`s tough posturing has yielded results. The Congress has agreed to give one of the DMK ministers charge of the revenue department. TRS chief K Chandrasekhar Rao has also offered to give up shipping ministry to pave way for a compromise.

DMK leader Dayanidhi Maran, after a meeting with Manmohan Singh, said the Prime Minister had already communicated to President A P J Abdul Kalam that T R Baalu will be in charge of surface transport including road, highways and shipping and Palanimanickam will be minister of state for finance.

Maran said the crisis over the portfolios had been resolved with the timely intervention of Congress President Sonia Gandhi.

#124 by Maharana
///....God knows what has happened to saner voices in the media too. Everyone is comparing sonia to mahatma or jesus or vedantic ideals...//

The ``Intellectuals`` in India have always been a quixotic - tilting at wind mills and blind to reason and logic. As usual they are looking at wrong directions, drawing wrong conclusion and wistfully basking in false glory. They have declared India as the greatest democracy on earth - secular and enlightened , because a catholic foreign woman got 2% extra votes.

Never mind the crooks and cons murderers and incompetent jerks have captured the the power. One look at the cabinet - you will see clearly where India is headed.

These folks have let India loose its way through out its independent history - now they are back again. The same old cliches are being repeated ad nauseam - pro-poor, socialism, non-alignement ... blah, blah.

Harimau , Ankit,

Its the same old Congress culture coming to fore. Have thugs and murderers join as ministers and never appreciate or work towards a coalition.
When has congress ever understood coalition culture, when their own party is headed by a dictator.
This government has the most brilliant cabinet of all. Laloo, Tytler, Taslimuddin holding portfolios and claim to be secular, corruption free and efficient government.

God knows what has happened to saner voices in the media too. Everyone is comparing sonia to mahatma or jesus or vedantic ideals.

Adios

#121 by harimau

Yep - When the entire world has thrown out the worthless commies into dustbin of the history - loosers in India have pumped steroid into these morons and have lifted them on to the predestal - to serve the poor.

Never mind what their track record is - that they have achieved nothing over decades.

But why blame the unwashed masses - the educated buffoons on this board are going ga ga over commies and laloos. They will serve the poor - put focus on ariculture and bring in the revolution.

ANother five years down the drain.

The appointment of Tytler to the cabinet is a hideous, gruesome joke. It is a faecal stain on the face of this government.

Seems this describes the situation to a T!

Statesman News Service

KOLKATA, May 24. — The Congress has urged Mr Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee to speak “as little as possible on national issues” and not to make “irresponsible statements” that might affect the interests of the Congress-led coalition government at the Centre.

At a rally at Shahid Minar yesterday, the chief minister had said without mincing words that the Left was the driving force behind the UPA government. “If we tell them to sit, they’ll sit. If we tell them to stand, they’ll stand,” he said.

144 dm

``
I am, however, willing to be more understanding of Manmohan Singh than of ABV`s posture.

``

of course I am not surprised. and that is because you are ``secular``. so if laloo yadav implicated in various hues of scams becomes a minister, it is okay coz he is secular. of course we cannot even talk about taslimuddin who is implicated in murder, dacoity and rape because he is not only secular, he also represents the minorities.

not to speak of the murdered tytler. although his inclusion is ``unnecessary and stupid`` (thanks for that), but then killing sikhs is a secular act and so it is not condemnable and we should try to be accomodative of secular murderers.

right dm?

i strongly believe india should ``hand over`` kashmir to pakistan...maximum one year and india will be left holding the kitty again over that worthless piece of land, beautiful though it is....a land-locked paradise infested by worthless individuals hell bent on destroying themselves over dogma and religion...pakistan cannot afford the upkeep of all kashmir.By india retaining kashmir as a part of the union , it only gives pakistan an easy ride.pakistan is hell bent on needling india any which way it can and will use any ploy, people or plan to gain its` nefarious purpose.thank god for the americans placing a heavy hand on the pakis or else things would have gotten progressively worse...which brings me to muse...whose side is god on???..hmmmm...as an indian i must say `allah-o-akbar`..i am grateful.

harimou #111
`` it should be okay for Congress thugs to target Indian Muslims and Sikhs while simultaneously cheating the Hindus for personal enrichment and continuation of dynastic policies. ``

Yup, you personally prefer that the BJP does this instead.

harimou #111
`` it should be okay for Congress thugs to target Indian Muslims and Sikhs while simultaneously cheating the Hindus for personal enrichment and continuation of dynastic policies. ``

Yup, you personally prefer that the BJP does this instead.

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Clash of Titans Laloo Vs Balasaheb (this will sell hot as a pay-per-view event)

http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/nov/21mum.htm

Apparently laloo has promised to take revenge on shivsena as a rail minister. He has also openly challenged Thakre to set his foot in Bihar. He incidentally addressed an election rally in Thakre heartland of Shivaji park without incident. So expect laloo to use railways as his personal jagir, with its employees as serfs. I wish he was the defense minister.

harimou:
``What is so sad? Aren`t you the one who wanted Sonia G@ndu and her party in power?``

Of course, I did. And no regrets either!
The choice to me was between economic growth with communal divide and that with communal harmony. On that score I have every expectation of the Sonia/Singh govt. healing some of the scars left by the Gujarat episode.

But I am not a devotee of either the Congress or the Nehru dynasty, and cannot but condemn what I think is a wrong move on the new govt.`s part. By their stupid and totally unnecessary inclusion of Jagdish Tytler -it almost seems as if they want to pick on the old scabs again- they have undone quite a bit of the good feeling among the sikhs generated by MS`s selection as the PM.

I am, however, willing to be more understanding of Manmohan Singh than of ABV`s posture. Vajpayee was indispensable to the party whereas MS is not; he owes his job to Sonia whereas ABV owed his job to his acceptability to BJP`s coalition partners.

nasah#106
``to give Railways to Laloo amounts to allowing the Fox to gaurd the chicken coop....``

I recently took a train from Delhi to Benaras. The service deteriorates as the train heads east. I was told that it becomes truly dismal when it enters Bihar. There, people pull the chain and stop the train at will without any consequences because the railway police will not do anything. I was told that even senior army officers posted in Bihar do not feel safe from interference from the politicians. I hope his becoming the minister of railways does not mean the bihari-style ``democratisation`` of railways in the rest of India.
Like other middle class Indians, I also loathe Laloo as a symbol of democracy meaning the power to the lowest common denominator in terms of competency (not that the US is any better:)). Yet, I cannot but be amazed at the hold he has over his people. Delhi now has a fairly large Bihari population of the very poor and marginalised poor who had to leave their state because of the complete lack of opportunities there. You would think that these people are the most disaffected with Laloo, yet his hold over them is so strong that they always wait for his instructions before deciding who to vote for in Delhi elections. Democracy is not an unmixed blessing!

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Ref sadna #102

[dost-mittar
Jagdish Tytler is in the Union Cabinet and we have not heard a squeak out of all those self-professed `secularists` who have never ceased to condemn BJP for Gujarat.]

That is secularism in India for you. I remember several interactors on Chowk (Indians) condemning the BJP over Gujarat while of course maintaining silence over Godhra, Now that we have a ``secular`` government in place, it should be okay for Congress thugs to target Indian Muslims and Sikhs while simultaneously cheating the Hindus for personal enrichment and continuation of dynastic policies.

[I wonder do not these people care to even APPEAR credible and consistent, that forget the politicians, even the so-called human rights/civil rights activists can not issue even a simple statement of protest?]

When you are all in the pay of foreigners (remember Indira Gandhi`s famous ``foreign hand``? It used to be behind even the collapse of an overpass under construction in Delhi though the contractor just used too much sand in the concrete) do not expect objectivity.

The Leftists, including most of the Congress and every variety of the Communist Party and the various Socialist parties, are and have been consistently anti-India, not just anti-Hindu. These are traitors that in any other country would be hanged in a public place for their carcasses to rot and to be eaten by vultures.

Ref dost-mittar #103

[sadna:
That`s so sad! I wish that the sardar had shown some guts and refused to take Jaggi. I guess this is what happens when the singh is fed by someone else instead of doing his own `shikaar`. Aage aage dekhiye hota hai kya!]

What is so sad? Aren`t you the one who wanted Sonia G@ndu and her party in power? Do you think the G@ndu had no influence on the selection of the ministers?

I just read in the Tamil daily ``Dinamalar`` that not content with 7 ministerial seats, the DMK (with a sum total of 16 MPs) has decided not to accept these Cabinet positions (despite them having been sworn in) because it does not like the portfolios allotted to them.

Imagine what the Communists with nearly 60 seats can do!

As I tell the Pakistanis, be careful what you wish for because you may not like it when you get it.

Pray for really really bad monsoons and a major drought for the next 5 years. That ought to screw the present government and the Maasanamuthus of Tamil Nadu and the Bhagwan Dasses of the North will vote out these street thugs.

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Romair

I think you need to visit Pakistan for a reality Check.

Kashmir is a subject now talked only by Mussaraf (Army) or the foreign office or the PTV. It does not excite anyone else as it did some years back. A lot of water has flown under the Ravi bridge since UN Resolutions or Plebicite. Even the free media is not concerned. Dost-Mitter must have noticed it.

That is how it should be. Relegate this issue to the level of fishermen exchange or the Yaks that the Chinese recently returned to Pakistan.

If the Pakistani Kashmiris and the Indian Kashmiris are alloweed to freely mix across the LOC, this issue will lose 80% of its sting.

Here again Pakistan is insisting that UN documents should be used instead of Passport to cross the LOC. The justification is that Passport means an international border.

I do not agree with it. If the Durand Line has not become an agreed border after 56 years of Passport use, LOC also can not. But insisting on the UN document is just a needless spanner in the flow of the events. (may be we are in the habit of wasting a few years and then retracting)

Let everyone cool down, do trade & live normally for a few years. Some kind of solution will automatically come up - and accepted by both sides quietly.

As SAFTA did without any hitch or hype.

There can only be a fedup-solution of Kashmir & not an excited-solution.

One wishes the Congress led Govt. a lot of luck

since it is certainly going to need it.

Romair, your views on Kashmir appear here a bit too early.

Let us see what is on the table by July-September

But I do think that this time we will not all be back to

square one.

Ras

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dost miiter ji

Vajpayee has earned his place as the elder statesman of India -- I am sure Manmohan Singh will keep him in the loop of his foreign policy especially vis a vis Pakistan. It would be nice to give him the charge of Indo/Pak Peace Process....

in the US with the regime change in November -- Clinton may be assigned the same role as a peacemaker -- to repair the damaged relations -- between EU anmd US in particular -- and between US and the world in general..

btw....it is alarming to see three hard core criminals in Manmohan Singh cabinet -- Jagdish, Laloo and Tasleemuddin -- to give Railways to Laloo amounts to allowing the Fox to gaurd the chicken coop....may not augur well for the image of a squeaky clean Prime minister...

Sadna #102,

I agree - this borders on criminal negligence. And our pitiful progressives
haven`t said a word simply because this is not the in-thing any more. The
intellectual vacuousness of the ideological left (and right) is there for all to
see.

sadna:
That`s so sad! I wish that the sardar had shown some guts and refused to take Jaggi. I guess this is what happens when the singh is fed by someone else instead of doing his own `shikaar`. Aage aage dekhiye hota hai kya!

dost-mittar
Jagdish Tytler is in the Union Cabinet and we have not heard a squeak out of all those self-professed `secularists` who have never ceased to condemn BJP for Gujarat.

I wonder do not these people care to even APPEAR credible and consistent, that forget the politicians, even the so-called human rights/civil rights activists can not issue even a simple statement of protest?

nasah:
I think that there is a role for Vajpayee if Manmohan Singh can be imaginative. If Vajpayee showed passion for anything, it was improving relations with Pakistan. Manmohan Singh can make him a special envoy incharge of overseeing the talks with Pakistan. Vajpayee is easily the most trusted politician in India and perhaps even more so in Pakistan. I think he would love to finish the job that he wanted to and might even still get a nobel for it. More importantly, if he is involved with a compromise, the BJP won`t be able to call it a sell-out which they are likely to do if the Manmohan Singh govt. makes a compromise on its own.

``one must give credit that Vajpayee through his successful economic policy -- did raise the threshold of Indian masses expectations -- that in turn saw not even a semblance of trickle down coming their way....``

This is not completely true. Some crumbs did come their way; actually the poverty rate did come down significantly during this period. But at the same time income disparities went up too; in other words, the poor did get marginally better off but the middle and upper classes improved a lot more. This unfortunately has almost always happened; as the Chinese leader Deng put it famously, for China to grow rapidly, some Chinese will have to grow faster than others; fortunately for the Chinese, they do not have to face the electoral wrath of those left behind. I also saw a chart once showed that in India there is direct relationship between poverty reduction and income disparities, i.e, the greater the income disparities, the greater also is the reduction in poverty. And there is a sound economic theory behind why this happens.

BTW the economist in my previous post was none other than Jagdish Bhagwati, who is frequently mentioned as a possible nobel contender.

bhai dost-mitter sahib -- indeed I was thrilled at the obvious and logical choice -- in fact on one of your boards about SOnia Gandhi -- I had blurted to Aleph Null that Sonia should nominate Dr. Manmohan Singh -- it was good to see that she heard me...:-) -- it`s indeed a revolution of ``rising expectation`` amid abundance for more than a few -- but poverty for STILL ...a lot.....

one must give credit that Vajpayee through his successful economic policy -- did raise the threshold of Indian masses expectations -- that in turn saw not even a semblance of trickle down coming their way....while a premature crude and crass salt rubbing celeberation of `India Shining` was going on for the majority of poverty wounded masses...

and that was Vajpayee`s undoing....the pissed off rural electorate just PUT some Bhung in Bjp Rung.....

As the economist friend of Manhohan Singh rightly writes about the Prime Minister: ``His work is cut out for him. But we cannot have hoped for a better leader as we stand now on the next cusp of change as India moves forward on its historic war on poverty.``....

indeed....it is good to know that among the Whirling Dervishes of the IT industries giddiness -- someone will still remember to offer one or two dances to a few damsels of silenty sitting Indian Masses....invited inside the globalization TENT...instead of being kept outside -- shivering in the eternally long cold night.....

to all pakistanis...give it up..get over it...you cannot compare your country with india...throw the chip on your shoulder away...as an indian i`m praying for the day the govt. will let those worthless , lazy kashmiris become prey for the greedy pak-punjabi by letting them go...let them rue the day they turned their nasty smelling, unwashed selves on a multicultural, democratic,industrial and technological power, namely india...the day pakistanis realize that their actions have only resulted in a failed state propped up by outside forces so as not to destabilize the region and undemine the efforts towrds progression of a resurgent india in whose fortunes the world has a profitable stake in , that`ll be the day that , hopefully, saner forces will prevail in pakistan and give up the virulent , bigoted actions that have been pursued so far...i have no hope.

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nasah saheb:
Here is what the eminent economist had to say about the election results while praising the election of his close and long-standing friend, Manmohan Singh: http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IEH20040522142618&Page=H&Title=Top+Stories&Topic=0&

Excerpt:

``The very success of our policies has led to their demands for more. Until the mid-80s when our failed policies produced low growth rates and little impact on poverty, we could have had the ``revolution of falling expectations.`` But that revolution did not transpire: when little is happening, our fatalism returns, as does acceptance of poverty as destiny. But when things improve, and the poor see possibilities, the revolution of rising expectations occurs.

This is not to be deplored. The poor, who bundled out Mrs. Indira Gandhi after the Emergency, were voting for ``political freedom``: the vasectomy drive, among other things, had alarmed the poor who were targeted. Now, among other factors that determined the vote in our complex economy and society, they are voting for economic prosperity to accelerate for them.``

re:#79 by Romair
This idiot is at it again. Ths same old story.

I had kicked his A$$ many times in the past but he never learns. That is why u are an ex-fauji i guess, Romoron. You need to develop a thick skin to be one.

``Pakistani Kashmiris will 100% vote to join Pakistan (I will vote twice) ``
Romoron,
When was the last time your part of Kashmir had a free election? You guys are such nincompoops that u need to be told that nobody, i mean nobody ever gets a 100% vote, even in a referendum where there is a ``wave`` in favor of the topic being voted for.
And, voting twice!
Ha, ha, ha.
I am sure it happens only in Pakistan.
Forger about Kashmir, mian.
This new govt will now be talking about Shimla agreement. Whatever transpired between ABV and Mushy is an old story.
Sridhar

re:#89 by dost-mittar
``And I started wondering why would a rational person like you do so?``
Are u kidding?
This guy Romair is one of the most irrational persons i have ever encountered on Chowk. His ideas on Kashmir are pretty much fixated. You can`t win him over with logic. With a kick in the butt, yes, but not with logic.
Sridhar

Romair # 79


“If you ask Pakistani Kashmiris, when they will join Pakistan, they will tell you that they are waiting for their brethren on the other side of the border to get free, first. “

The folks on the other side of the border are free, they elect their own govt. and are masters of their own destiny. When was the last time you had a free and fair election in POK.

“Very few Indians have any idea about what is going on in Indian Kashmir.”

I just visited Kashmir last month. I must say hats off to Mufti and Co for really changing things there.

“- Given the chance, Indian Kashmiris (at least in the Valley) will overwhelmingly vote to separate from India
- Pakistani Kashmiris will 100% vote to join Pakistan (I will vote twice) “

I am not sure about that things have really change in the valley and its booming. I think when folks from POK see their success they are bound to vote for India.

“India cannot control the insurgency in Kashmir, even if the insurgency doesn`t have Pakisatani support The population of Kashmir is more pro-insurgent, than pro-India. That is how the insurgents survive, with local support. That is why the insurgency is still going on today and the elections were attacked and boycotted “

India just controlled the insurgency in Kashmir, we have successfully persuaded Musharraf to stop sending his jihadis. If the population was pro insurgents why are the insurgent not as effective as they used to be. The people voted in Kashmir, most sane people fear for their life so did kashmiries. But they did defy the jihadis in large numbers and voted both in the state elections and the recent general elections.

“- The human rights violations in Kashmir, according to international Human rights sources, are so huge, that it will open a Pandora`s box for India, if they start coming out (I say this with all seriousness and with references) “

The excesses by the security forces are unfortunate. They should have done better. But I don’t think there is anything left to come out in large part due to Pakistan.


“- India has crossed the point of being able to successfully integrate Kashmir with India. It hasn`t been able to do so, over 55 years, and with all the killings now, it is beyond the point of no return “

I just came back from the valley last month. I meet Kashmiris who do business with us regularly. I think you are wrong.

“However an overwhelming portion of Paksitani population (according to surveys) does consider a solution to Kashmir central to peace with India, ie. no govt. in Pakistan can survive if it shortsells Kashmir “

The Pakistani population does not matter. We just have to make a deal with Musharraf or the Pakistani Army.

“I know of only one that will work, and which to a great deal matches the voting patterns. Pakistan gets Azad Kashmir. India gets Jammu and Ladakh (or most of it). The Valley becomes an independent entity, either on its own, or with joint control of some sort, between India, Pakistan and UN, or UN, or just India/UN etc. The Valley is actually very tiny. Most Indians probably don`t even know where it starts, where it finishes etc. “

I doubt any Indian govt. can give an inch of land to Pakistan.

As far as the rest of your post I can only say that Gulam Nabi Azad is back in Power. Expect some fireworks……….



Ragards,


Faruk

DM

``

To me the answer is obvious. To you, despite your education and enlightenment, your religious identity is more important than anything else and you associate that identity more with a muslim Pakistan than an avowedly secular India. And herein lies the reason why the `freedom movement` in Kashmir receives very little sympatyhy in the rest of the world despite the widespread human rights violations by the Indian occupation forces...it is perceived as nothing more than a movement of freedom from Kaafirs; such a movement does not get much sympathy in today`s world.

``

you hit the nail..right there on the TOP.

arjun_m #83
``That`s so frikking vague, academic, lacking in practical value ``

Depends on the listener. To me it is a reminder that economy does better with 85% literacy than 65 % literacy, that basic education, basic health and basic contraception do not trickle down.

It means that if roads are left entirely to the private sector, only rich people will have roads to their houses and factories, that if water supply is left entirely to private sector, only industries and big customers will have water, and we will only get even more of our countryside migrating to sleep on city pavements.

Being a democracy unlike China the governments would not be able banish them from the pavements. Whether it makes sense on any count to have humongous super cities where most of our 1 billion population lives on the streets is debatable.

And to be more specific : 65% of our GDP comes from the unorganised sector only 35% from the organised sector. With a total workforce of 350 million, only about 30 million are in the organised sector. A 10% growth in EMPLOYMENT(not 10% GDP growth) in the organised sector for 10 years will yield only 68 million jobs.

The alternative to putting every one on ships to other countries or feeding them philosophy, is to make the unorganised sector/countryside more productive. Which brings us back to China..

Romair,

I am, as ever, in awe of your abilities of political clairvoyance, analysis
of Pakistani threat projection (economic and military) vis a vis India and
unbounded optimism - not to forget the deep concern for global human
rights.

Let me, however, tell you how it works from an Indian perspective. Not
many people have been to the valley (as opposed to several Pakistanis
who have, evidently), but even fewer people have been to Nagaland. Do
you honestly believe that Indian Tamils would be okay to a football field`s
worth of land seceding from Nagaland ?

This is simply how sovereign countries react to attempted and perceived
land grabs. The English are not deeply emotionally invested in the Falklands
either.

By the way, Pakistani Kashmir having it`s own president is all well and good.
You do forget the allegiance to Pakistan that he has to sign, in order to be
the president.

Romair:
Your powerful post has effectively hijacked this thread. I was hoping to get some reactions from you re. the article; instead it was the same-old, same-old. My response would probably also be same-old, except that I saw something new in your post, namely,
``Pakistani Kashmiris will 100% vote to join Pakistan (I will vote twice)``

And I started wondering why would a rational person like you do so?
-you have met many Indians and you found them to be very decent people; so it couldn`t be because you think that Indians are evil;
-it couldn`t be to protect your kashmiri identity....you and your people have lost your kashmiriyat, your language and your culture, while that language and culture is flourishing on the Indian side....indeed you have even lost your majority on your side;
-you are in the IT field and you probably would like your children have to access to the best possible educational facilities available at IITs and IIMs;
-you need to network with the people in the IT field for which being Indian would be more advantageous than being a Pakistani;
-you aspire to be a successful businessman and would prefer to have access to a $600 billion market than a $60 billion market (rough figures, did not check the correct figures);
-you are a great champion of minority rights. So, you would prefer to be in a country whose largest minority has increased its share of the population rather than the one in which the largest minority has dwindled to a small fraction of its earlier number; more importantly, this once proud minority is now so crushed and frightened that you do not even hear a squeaky `chooN` from them; all they can do is leave the country, start answering the azaan or accept whatever is in their karma; and finally,
-you have to travel a lot and you would rather carry a passport which carries increasing respect rather than the one which invites harsh scrutiny;

To me the answer is obvious. To you, despite your education and enlightenment, your religious identity is more important than anything else and you associate that identity more with a muslim Pakistan than an avowedly secular India. And herein lies the reason why the `freedom movement` in Kashmir receives very little sympatyhy in the rest of the world despite the widespread human rights violations by the Indian occupation forces...it is perceived as nothing more than a movement of freedom from Kaafirs; such a movement does not get much sympathy in today`s world.

But I would like to end on a note of agreement rather than disagreement. You say that:
``From Pakistan`s side, Pakistan needs to sit back for five to ten years, and try to get 7-8% economic growth rates (quite possible now), for the time being, and keep encouraging India to solve Kashmir....... ``
This is exactly what India should do, too, while the two countries try to live like normal neighbours. If this happens, Kashmir will not be the sole focus of the Indo-Pak relations and divested of the emotional capital invested in it on both sides, and hence much more amenable to the rational give and take necessary to have a lasting, peaceful solution to this difficult problem.

Independant kashmir, a vision,

There are no freedom fighters in kashmir. It is all lashker e toibas and hizbul mujahideen, it is all about creating an islamic state. That is the reason why the pakistanis imncluding the romairs want an independant kashmir. That will be a land where the jihadis have won, it will have the hoodood and blasphemy laws and rampant honour killings. It will not be hastled by the ghost of jinnah propped up by the YLHs, it will not have that one speach of jinnah quoted by the YLHs of pakistan.
It will be a true islamic country, fought and won by the jihadis, who have ethnically cleansed kasmir.
It is a true vision for the romairs of pakistan who can call the laskers and mujahideen as freedom fighters. The world really needs a country like kashmir, a true free country ruled by the hzibul mujahideen, like a hole in the head and heart. It is pathetic to see pakistanis talking about human rights when the infian troops are fighting the laskers and jihadis.

Karachi is new hub of Al-Qaeda: Pak Oppn party
Asian News International
Karachi, May 22

Karachi is emerging as the new centre of activity for the Al-Qaeda and the Taliban, claimed Dr Farooq Sattar, the parliamentary party leader of Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM).

Talking to reporters in Karachi, Sattar was quoted by The News as saying that these two extremist groups were receiving assistance from armed elements of local religious parties, who had been shifted to Karachi after the closure of jihadi chapters in Kashmir, Afghanistan and Wana.
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above is from hindustan times of today.

For romair this is another reason why pakistan should have a say in kashmir affairs.

A declaration by kashmiris,

Kashmiris always wanted to join pakistan largely because of the socil affinity and the law and order example pakistan has set for the islamic world. A spokes man for kashmiris quoted the specific report from an ordinary abdul pakis