Train to Pakistan 2004: Just Another Touristy Day.
Veeresh Malik May 21, 2004
#44 Posted by malik99 on May 24, 2004 10:38:44 am
Having spent my formative years in Islamabad, and still making the yearly pilgrimages to that city every year or so to visit my family, I have deep emotional ties with that city. It is beautiful, clean, and has the mix of people from all provinces of Pakistan. Throw in a good measure Pakistanis who have returned after living abroad. Their expectations from the city, from its infrastructure, from its orderliness, the products they look for in the shops, the kind of social settings they want, have all contributed to Islamabad having more in common with West than with the rest of Pakistan. No wonder it is a natural choice for those seeking to go back to Pakistan.
Ijaz - I have to agree with Maryamm that Islamabad is no longer the ghost town it used to be around Eids. I am not sure how long ago you moved to Islamabad. I distinctly remember that in the early 80s, there would be very little traffic on eid days. Whereas now, Jinnah Super, Super Market, Aabpara, Peshawer More bustle with residents on all holidays (or for that matter ANY given day). It was pretty uncommon to meet a boy in my class who was BORN in Islamabad. Whereas now a few generation of teenagers are born and brought-up in Islamabad and they find no reason to head ``back`` to other towns of Pakistan for eid. Islamabad is now their town and that is where their roots are.
Ijaz - I have to agree with Maryamm that Islamabad is no longer the ghost town it used to be around Eids. I am not sure how long ago you moved to Islamabad. I distinctly remember that in the early 80s, there would be very little traffic on eid days. Whereas now, Jinnah Super, Super Market, Aabpara, Peshawer More bustle with residents on all holidays (or for that matter ANY given day). It was pretty uncommon to meet a boy in my class who was BORN in Islamabad. Whereas now a few generation of teenagers are born and brought-up in Islamabad and they find no reason to head ``back`` to other towns of Pakistan for eid. Islamabad is now their town and that is where their roots are.
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#43 Posted by Ralph on May 24, 2004 10:38:43 am
nazarhayatkhanji # 39
It is true that some of these things look good from outside. At least for now, India is certainly getting some good international press. Yet the return of the dynastic rule, extra-constitutional pulling of strings from behind the throne, and reempowerment of totally corrupt, discarded old men are all extremely dangerous developments for the country. The new PM will have to be a miracle man in order to save the nation from the clutches of its new power-brokers.
It is true that some of these things look good from outside. At least for now, India is certainly getting some good international press. Yet the return of the dynastic rule, extra-constitutional pulling of strings from behind the throne, and reempowerment of totally corrupt, discarded old men are all extremely dangerous developments for the country. The new PM will have to be a miracle man in order to save the nation from the clutches of its new power-brokers.
#42 Posted by ballukhan on May 24, 2004 10:38:43 am
#39 by nazarhayatkhan on May 23, 2004 11:10pm PT
I agree-
I would like to know how tempting it is for some of the Pakistanis to scoff at Indian democracy just because it is perceived to be an old enemy??
and
How many Pakistanis are tempted to proclaim themselves to be great patriots by eulogizing their countrys dictatorship over their enemy`s democracy??
I agree-
I would like to know how tempting it is for some of the Pakistanis to scoff at Indian democracy just because it is perceived to be an old enemy??
and
How many Pakistanis are tempted to proclaim themselves to be great patriots by eulogizing their countrys dictatorship over their enemy`s democracy??
#41 Posted by kaurasach on May 24, 2004 10:38:43 am
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#40 Posted by ballukhan on May 24, 2004 10:38:43 am
Great stuff! Veeresh this is the best narrative from you, reads like a paperback thriller. Keep it up- I think you need to turn this into a thriller movie script and sell it to some bollywood producer. And the intelligence chap angle- wow!! Only if you were an Indian out to avenge the killing of your old friend by the Lashkar-e-Toiba outfit inside Pakistan- and if you were to make a claen hit and are able to defy the ISI, and the PAki Army- with Mush at the helm of affairs personally trying to capture you - and you making it safe back to India with your great disguises- Ahhh- with your narrative style that would make a great bollywood screen play.
Great stuff!! keep it up!!
Great stuff!! keep it up!!
#39 Posted by nazarhayatkhan on May 23, 2004 11:10:45 pm
Just a general remark for the Anti-Congress types:
The recent Elections of India & Sonia`s refusal to become a PM has done a far greater image building for India on the world stage than its IT or economic growth or any other PR exercise could ever have done.
It has also put a moral pressure on other dictatorships to emulate the example.
#38 Posted by veeresh on May 23, 2004 9:50:36 pm
Romair 11 . . . I don`t know which specific agency the snoops in the taxi outside Jinnah were from. I didn`t want to know, either.
Sadna 13 . . . cremation leaves bones behind, especially taking into account the technologies available in those parts of the world in 1947. Rivers, for that matter even oceans, tend to wash up their secrets every so often. This business of missing bodies will remain one of the unspoken and unmentioned secrets, maybe even shames, of our nations. I do know firsthand a few people in Delhi and environs who used to be Muslim before 1947 and converted subsequently . . . there is total and sometimes violent denial of this fact as they and subsequent generations move into their new religion with a fervour and fanaticism, especially if there are issues of properties/wealth acquired involved.
Urstruly 15 . . . noted. We aim to please. Which is your country, by the way?
DM 16 . . . thank you, I try to reproduce each day with the emotions and realities of that day. Yes, the Islamabad Club is apparently THE place to visit. The NSCI in Delhi is now a sad shadow of its original grandeur. The older clubs with their exclusivities and the newer ones based on wealth do provide great facilities and pomp.
What I mean about the exchange in 1947 is that conversion was probably no big deal. IMHO, where the stronger class regardless of religion could push a relatively weaker group out, sometimes within the family itself, and then grab property/wealth as well as convert, then they did it. And the weaker/poorer went across to the other side, started afresh. The word I stress here is ``relatively``.
Ijaz 17 . . . thank you Sir, from you that is a compliment, a real one. I am trying to be as unbiased in my observations as possible.
While on my trip, I often used to think about my late first cousin, a Major from the Indian Army, who was killed on IS Duty in Baramulla a few years ago. His father, my maamoo, survived upfront attacks by Muslims in Jhung in 1947, and then joined the Indian Army, retiring as a Brigadier. My cousin, was part-Naga, a Christian, and grandson to one of the biggest separatists we have ever had in India. How democracy assimilates in one, maximum two, generations is the lesson I learnt there.
We used to discuss the Kashmir issues a lot before he was killed. There was a deep understanding, and very little hatred. You have to understand the meaning of the word ``patriot`` when you think about a person like my cousin. Sometimes I tried to see Pakistan through his eyes. I only wish that I can make it to Lawrence College/Murree with my son in my lifetime, for my son and my cousin, for which I shall suffer ``The Train`` again, if required.
Romair 21 . . . Thank you for the hidden compliment, yes, I paid my way. And proud of it, too.Though I know enough people in Pakistan who would have made sure my feet didn`t touch the ground, at the same time they were sensible enough to let me go on my discovery trip on my own.
I have met enough Pakistanis who have visited India without the baggage of ``relative visas``. I have met very few Indians who have done it the other way around (other than gush-gush media). These cricket visas provided a corrective.
Nobody claims expertise after one short visit, but what is wrong in placing observations down as specifics, and seeking specific corrections? For example, many Pakistanis on this website are miffed about the way I have portrayed ``The Train`` route from Wagah to Lahore, but how many Pakistanis have bothered to retrace the route? All it costs is 50/- rupees one way. But no, it is better to try to shout me down as ``ungrateful``?? You tell me, or ask anybody from Lahore, is riding a dusty ruined train through Mogulpura a great introduction to Pakistan, how do I write ANYTHING good about that? I have searched the Internet for an article on the subject and not found any.
tahmed32 33 . . . yes Sir, that is a lovely way of putting it. In my lifetime of travel, there is no single country that I have disliked. When the memories come back, they are always of the rose one touched, not the thorns.
maryamm 29 . . . shall do. We did notice many other restaurants, but Pizza Hut had the best aircon . . .it seems.
jay 30 . . . a few months ago a Pakistani civilian got lost in the POK area, and actually rode a motorcycle into Kashmir, I think this was closer to the Samba sector. He was nabbed only when he tried to buy petrol using Pakistani money at a filling station. Some of the drivers/conductors I met in Rawalpindi/Islamabad made it sound as though ``border`` crossings were more for minor trade than for anything else; I tend to agree.
i-am-the-cheese 32 . . . on food in Pakistan, well, till this episode, what we ate is what you read. But yes, the smell of beef tallow as a cooking medium hangs heavy in most Pakistani food markets, and that does provide a particular crispy taste to everything fried in it, including veggies al-dente and biryanis. What beef tallow does to your cholestrol is another matter altogether. On the ``taste`` of Pakistani street cooking, no two ways about it, animal fat used as cooking medium makes food tastier.
The eggs & parathas we had at the Islamabad Regency were specifically cooked in butter, and the chef came up to tell us so when he heard we were from India.
Bombay kababs - Barre Mian and clones are terrible, agreed, but if you want decent kabas in India, you have to go to some of the more established Iranis in Bombay.
Delhi kababs - chicken as a kabab raw material is now terrible. The new flavours are fish and red meat based. Try picking up marinated stuff from a variety of neighbourhood stores, and barbecue at home on your own as an option?
Vadilal ice-cream, yes.
harimau 37 . . . on aaloo parathas, do you like the thin crispy filling or the chunky heavy filling? Also, on cooking mediums, try working Indian-Pakistani food in Olive Oil that has been advance seasoned / flavoured with peppers . . . yummmmm . . .
Sadna 13 . . . cremation leaves bones behind, especially taking into account the technologies available in those parts of the world in 1947. Rivers, for that matter even oceans, tend to wash up their secrets every so often. This business of missing bodies will remain one of the unspoken and unmentioned secrets, maybe even shames, of our nations. I do know firsthand a few people in Delhi and environs who used to be Muslim before 1947 and converted subsequently . . . there is total and sometimes violent denial of this fact as they and subsequent generations move into their new religion with a fervour and fanaticism, especially if there are issues of properties/wealth acquired involved.
Urstruly 15 . . . noted. We aim to please. Which is your country, by the way?
DM 16 . . . thank you, I try to reproduce each day with the emotions and realities of that day. Yes, the Islamabad Club is apparently THE place to visit. The NSCI in Delhi is now a sad shadow of its original grandeur. The older clubs with their exclusivities and the newer ones based on wealth do provide great facilities and pomp.
What I mean about the exchange in 1947 is that conversion was probably no big deal. IMHO, where the stronger class regardless of religion could push a relatively weaker group out, sometimes within the family itself, and then grab property/wealth as well as convert, then they did it. And the weaker/poorer went across to the other side, started afresh. The word I stress here is ``relatively``.
Ijaz 17 . . . thank you Sir, from you that is a compliment, a real one. I am trying to be as unbiased in my observations as possible.
While on my trip, I often used to think about my late first cousin, a Major from the Indian Army, who was killed on IS Duty in Baramulla a few years ago. His father, my maamoo, survived upfront attacks by Muslims in Jhung in 1947, and then joined the Indian Army, retiring as a Brigadier. My cousin, was part-Naga, a Christian, and grandson to one of the biggest separatists we have ever had in India. How democracy assimilates in one, maximum two, generations is the lesson I learnt there.
We used to discuss the Kashmir issues a lot before he was killed. There was a deep understanding, and very little hatred. You have to understand the meaning of the word ``patriot`` when you think about a person like my cousin. Sometimes I tried to see Pakistan through his eyes. I only wish that I can make it to Lawrence College/Murree with my son in my lifetime, for my son and my cousin, for which I shall suffer ``The Train`` again, if required.
Romair 21 . . . Thank you for the hidden compliment, yes, I paid my way. And proud of it, too.Though I know enough people in Pakistan who would have made sure my feet didn`t touch the ground, at the same time they were sensible enough to let me go on my discovery trip on my own.
I have met enough Pakistanis who have visited India without the baggage of ``relative visas``. I have met very few Indians who have done it the other way around (other than gush-gush media). These cricket visas provided a corrective.
Nobody claims expertise after one short visit, but what is wrong in placing observations down as specifics, and seeking specific corrections? For example, many Pakistanis on this website are miffed about the way I have portrayed ``The Train`` route from Wagah to Lahore, but how many Pakistanis have bothered to retrace the route? All it costs is 50/- rupees one way. But no, it is better to try to shout me down as ``ungrateful``?? You tell me, or ask anybody from Lahore, is riding a dusty ruined train through Mogulpura a great introduction to Pakistan, how do I write ANYTHING good about that? I have searched the Internet for an article on the subject and not found any.
tahmed32 33 . . . yes Sir, that is a lovely way of putting it. In my lifetime of travel, there is no single country that I have disliked. When the memories come back, they are always of the rose one touched, not the thorns.
maryamm 29 . . . shall do. We did notice many other restaurants, but Pizza Hut had the best aircon . . .it seems.
jay 30 . . . a few months ago a Pakistani civilian got lost in the POK area, and actually rode a motorcycle into Kashmir, I think this was closer to the Samba sector. He was nabbed only when he tried to buy petrol using Pakistani money at a filling station. Some of the drivers/conductors I met in Rawalpindi/Islamabad made it sound as though ``border`` crossings were more for minor trade than for anything else; I tend to agree.
i-am-the-cheese 32 . . . on food in Pakistan, well, till this episode, what we ate is what you read. But yes, the smell of beef tallow as a cooking medium hangs heavy in most Pakistani food markets, and that does provide a particular crispy taste to everything fried in it, including veggies al-dente and biryanis. What beef tallow does to your cholestrol is another matter altogether. On the ``taste`` of Pakistani street cooking, no two ways about it, animal fat used as cooking medium makes food tastier.
The eggs & parathas we had at the Islamabad Regency were specifically cooked in butter, and the chef came up to tell us so when he heard we were from India.
Bombay kababs - Barre Mian and clones are terrible, agreed, but if you want decent kabas in India, you have to go to some of the more established Iranis in Bombay.
Delhi kababs - chicken as a kabab raw material is now terrible. The new flavours are fish and red meat based. Try picking up marinated stuff from a variety of neighbourhood stores, and barbecue at home on your own as an option?
Vadilal ice-cream, yes.
harimau 37 . . . on aaloo parathas, do you like the thin crispy filling or the chunky heavy filling? Also, on cooking mediums, try working Indian-Pakistani food in Olive Oil that has been advance seasoned / flavoured with peppers . . . yummmmm . . .
#37 Posted by Maharana on May 23, 2004 7:50:50 pm
Jay #30,
Delusion and Manic Depression...
Last time the cabinet was influenced by a south indian.. we lost a war in 62.
Keep that south-north nonsense in your head. I can see rest of the nation thankfully not plagued by the same delusion of north v.s south.
Adios
Delusion and Manic Depression...
Last time the cabinet was influenced by a south indian.. we lost a war in 62.
Keep that south-north nonsense in your head. I can see rest of the nation thankfully not plagued by the same delusion of north v.s south.
Adios
#36 Posted by harimau on May 23, 2004 7:50:50 pm
Ref i-am-the-cheese #33
[.. and our parathas kick your ass anyday, everyday]
After eating the alu-paratha from a Pakistani take-out restaurant in Chicago, I have to agree!
[.. and our parathas kick your ass anyday, everyday]
After eating the alu-paratha from a Pakistani take-out restaurant in Chicago, I have to agree!
#35 Posted by khamkhwa. on May 23, 2004 7:50:49 pm
[and it was possibly the most distasteful culinary experience i have had... you call that a tikka?]
....serves you right too...eating tikka in an indian outlet is like blasphemy... what do they know about meat dishes...did you expect the barbeque tonite experience in mumbai...some people never learn...
....serves you right too...eating tikka in an indian outlet is like blasphemy... what do they know about meat dishes...did you expect the barbeque tonite experience in mumbai...some people never learn...
#34 Posted by Romair on May 23, 2004 3:20:19 pm
Ijaz_gul #31: ``Romair, I thought its a long time you came to Pakistan``
Its been a long time since I have been to Lahore. Not to all of Pakistan. All my information on Lahore is from what I have read, and friends I have talked to.
Its been a long time since I have been to Lahore. Not to all of Pakistan. All my information on Lahore is from what I have read, and friends I have talked to.
#33 Posted by i-am-the-cheese on May 23, 2004 1:32:47 pm
# 29 maryamm
darling, we have DATE trees on karachi roundabouts, what are you complaining about? these date trees are wilted and dusty, they are falling apart every day while some contractor is that little bit richer..
vereesh
your travelogues are some of the most observant i have ever red... very cool...
but sirji, what about your food? vadilal might be the best ice cream ever, oh for that strawberry liter pack again and again, but you indians know nothing about food.. barre mian was supposedly the place for barbeque wagerah- and it was possibly the most distasteful culinary experience i have had... you call that a tikka? how sad is your chicken roll.. bohri mohalla wasnt any better... our kebabs and nihari and khiris are so much better than yours.. and our parathas kick your ass anyday, everyday
but cheers. come again!
darling, we have DATE trees on karachi roundabouts, what are you complaining about? these date trees are wilted and dusty, they are falling apart every day while some contractor is that little bit richer..
vereesh
your travelogues are some of the most observant i have ever red... very cool...
but sirji, what about your food? vadilal might be the best ice cream ever, oh for that strawberry liter pack again and again, but you indians know nothing about food.. barre mian was supposedly the place for barbeque wagerah- and it was possibly the most distasteful culinary experience i have had... you call that a tikka? how sad is your chicken roll.. bohri mohalla wasnt any better... our kebabs and nihari and khiris are so much better than yours.. and our parathas kick your ass anyday, everyday
but cheers. come again!
#32 Posted by i-am-the-cheese on May 23, 2004 1:32:47 pm
# 29 maryamm
darling, we have DATE trees on karachi roundabouts, what are you complaining about? these date trees are wilted and dusty, they are falling apart every day while some contractor is that little bit richer..
vereesh
your travelogues are some of the most observant i have ever red... very cool...
but sirji, what about your food? vadilal might be the best ice cream ever, oh for that strawberry liter pack again and again, but you indians know nothing about food.. barre mian was supposedly the place for barbeque wagerah- and it was possibly the most distasteful culinary experience i have had... you call that a tikka? how sad is your chicken roll.. bohri mohalla wasnt any better... our kebabs and nihari and khiris are so much better than yours.. and our parathas kick your ass anyday, everyday
but cheers. come again!
darling, we have DATE trees on karachi roundabouts, what are you complaining about? these date trees are wilted and dusty, they are falling apart every day while some contractor is that little bit richer..
vereesh
your travelogues are some of the most observant i have ever red... very cool...
but sirji, what about your food? vadilal might be the best ice cream ever, oh for that strawberry liter pack again and again, but you indians know nothing about food.. barre mian was supposedly the place for barbeque wagerah- and it was possibly the most distasteful culinary experience i have had... you call that a tikka? how sad is your chicken roll.. bohri mohalla wasnt any better... our kebabs and nihari and khiris are so much better than yours.. and our parathas kick your ass anyday, everyday
but cheers. come again!
#31 Posted by ijaz_gul on May 23, 2004 1:32:33 pm
Maryam, I dont thnk you live in Islamabad. I do.
Romair, I thought its a long time you came to Pakistan. Howcome you know so much about the green belts?
Romair, I thought its a long time you came to Pakistan. Howcome you know so much about the green belts?
#30 Posted by jay on May 23, 2004 12:06:38 pm
legacy of a delusion,
The peace initiative by vajpaye, which started with the lahore declaration turned out to be the cause of kargill invasion. The cricket diplomacy will also have the consequences waiting. As veeresh and dost mitters write ups are praise sky high by the pakistanis on chowk, it is inevitable that the free issue of visas would have been used by the isi ti infiltrate india. Now is the time to wait for the out come of yet anotjhet delusion of vajpaye.
The only hope is that if the cabinet is influenced by people from south, there is hope for a realistic solution to kashmir issue. The fencing should be completed and a 3 kilometer mine field seperating india and pakistan. The situation on the indian side is really pathetic, it was only a few minths ago a pakistani got on a push bike and cycled 3 KM inside india.
It is for the new govt to remove the legacy of an infantile delusion of vajpaye.
The peace initiative by vajpaye, which started with the lahore declaration turned out to be the cause of kargill invasion. The cricket diplomacy will also have the consequences waiting. As veeresh and dost mitters write ups are praise sky high by the pakistanis on chowk, it is inevitable that the free issue of visas would have been used by the isi ti infiltrate india. Now is the time to wait for the out come of yet anotjhet delusion of vajpaye.
The only hope is that if the cabinet is influenced by people from south, there is hope for a realistic solution to kashmir issue. The fencing should be completed and a 3 kilometer mine field seperating india and pakistan. The situation on the indian side is really pathetic, it was only a few minths ago a pakistani got on a push bike and cycled 3 KM inside india.
It is for the new govt to remove the legacy of an infantile delusion of vajpaye.
#29 Posted by jay on May 23, 2004 12:06:37 pm
Rise of feudalism,
The pakistanis and a few indians are celebrating the rise of congress as a victory for secularism and support for the poor. The reality is that it is the re-emergence of feudal values in indian politics. It is the rise of the fuedal belief that leadership is a something heriditary, alonging for the days of the kings and queens.
The memebers of the congress party cannot think of vesting the leadership to anone other than that from the nehrue family. That is the only reason, why some mebers were threatening suicide, it is the emergence of feudal beliefs. The geriatrics from the indira era are back, the psychophants of rajesh pilot, the swamijee and others, deeply rooted in feudal vlaues.
The pakistanis and a few indians are celebrating the rise of congress as a victory for secularism and support for the poor. The reality is that it is the re-emergence of feudal values in indian politics. It is the rise of the fuedal belief that leadership is a something heriditary, alonging for the days of the kings and queens.
The memebers of the congress party cannot think of vesting the leadership to anone other than that from the nehrue family. That is the only reason, why some mebers were threatening suicide, it is the emergence of feudal beliefs. The geriatrics from the indira era are back, the psychophants of rajesh pilot, the swamijee and others, deeply rooted in feudal vlaues.
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