Textbook Questions

omar_r_quraishi #116
You need to improve your comprehension. If you were less interested in abusing me, you might actually take the trouble to read what I write.

Nowhere did I deny MM Joshi`s and co`s intention or success in `saffronizing`. In fact I clearly stated in multiple posts on this thread that a tussle is going on between two extreme views of Indian history the Hindutva on one side and Leftists on another.

What I WAS challenging was your characterisation of a specific quote about certain medieval invaders as an ideological statement.

MM Joshi lost his election. It was INDIANS including Hindus who voted MM Joshi out. Did you even know that?

He was in his job earlier because he and his party were voted into power. A minister has the full constitutional rights to make policy and make speeches about it, whether we hate that policy or not. Next time if his party comes back to power, if he gets his old job, he will make the same speeches about the same policy. That is how democracy works, live with it. The only way to defeat his ideas is by debate. Live with that.

btw, certain Pakistanis have been protesting textbook content SINCE 1986. That is 18 YEARS worth of protest. Where have you and rest of `liberal` Pakistani press been for 18 years?

80,000 Pakistanis fought in 20 years of the Afghan war according to Ahmed Rashid. Fazlur Rehman commands 100,000 armed fighters, he is now your leader of the opposition. 25% of Taliban`s army was composed of Pakistani jihadis.

How many times has the Pakistani public been informed of this by the English press in these intervening years ? Suddenly in the year 2004, the `liberal` and `free` Pakistani press publishes a few select articles and demands to be called liberal and free. That ruse works only when people have no other sources of information.

Speaking of which, I suggest you look up some of many books which mention the massacres of Mazar-i-Sharif in 1997-1998, where thousands of Pakistani jihadis (and allegedly members of the Pakistani military) fought alongside the Taliban. The subsequent fall outs of that conflict will become more understandable.

Omar Sahib/116, we are now beginning to sound like a Punch & Judy show, but any way. (By the way, do you know an Asif from Karachi, a businessman, who is complaining about his wife keeping wickets for an unknown Pakistani cricketer? Never mind . . .)

a) Within sarkari India, I have a Constitution, which does not differentiate on the basis of religion. I do not have to state my religion on passport forms, for example. So within that Government context, sorry, I can not define ``Hindu``, or any other religion for that matter.

b) Within private sector India, it does not matter. For example, I happen to have three ``Amins`` in my company, one each a Muslim, Hindu and (surprise?) Sikh. Here again, religion does not need to be defined.

c) Within religious India, it varies. Some, very few, temples and mosques, are very strict on who goes in. Others impose a dress code and no big deal. Yet others have no problem at all. So, here again, on an empirical basis, I would say that for almost 99% of religious places, your religion or its definition is not relevant. There will always be the exception, which you will surely ferret out, now that the local thanedaar has had you running, preventing you from going out whenever the crackers go off.

d) Within urbane India, it has simply stopped mattering to a large extent now. I would be hard pressed to find a definition.

e) Within rural India, the definitions vary wildly geographically. However, the chances of Hindus using their majority position to exclude others solely on the basis of religion would be rather the exception. Simply not commercially viable in any agrarian society, but then, would you know about these things?

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nb/117, thanks. I increasingly write under pseudonyms now, except at The Chowk and Outlook. See, Pakistan`s definition of what or who is a compleat Muslim is a touchy subject, better to let a Pakistani inter-actor explain it here. To the best of my knolwedge, Pakistani women courtesy Hudood are not allowed to be complete Muslims, so that`s about 50% removed. Then, Ahmeddiyas and certain other sects have it really bad in Pakistan, and are not considered Muslims either. It goes on . . .

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How, Omar Sahib, did I come to the conclusion that all Muslims in Pakistan are not equal in the eyes of the Pakistani State?

OK, here is a deal:- if I tell you, will you for once not abuse me in return, but just counter my information if it is incorrect? So, here we go again, and please note, this is in context with the State . . . not anecdotal or exceptions:-

1) Pakistani women are subject to the Hudood Laws.
2) Pakistani Muslims in Jhung, where my fore-fathers hail from, are terribly discriminated against even today.
3) Pakistan`s position on Bengali Muslims was spelt out in 1971.
4) Pakistan`s position on Ahmeddiyas in particular, and other sects which I shall name if you so desire, is getting increasingly discriminatory.
5) Pakistan`s position on Muslims vis-a-vis language (Urdu) discriminates terribly against non-Urdu speaking Pakistani Muslims.

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For now, that`s all. I have to prepare for a drive to Srinagar, and wish to get my camera ready. I aim to try to take photographs for The Chowk.

Veeresh,
First of all, I want to tell you that when I lived in India, my little brother always showed me your articles in that auto magazine-Indian Auto? Auto India? so it is quite exciting for me to actually be `talking` to you like this. :)
I also wanted to ask you to not ever write`drivel` as Omar suggested, because he`s got a copyright on drivel. Now that I`ve got my cheap thrills...
I don`t know that the Indians I used to hang out with could possibly be called not Muslim enough, but I doubt they need anyone`s stamp of approval anyway. What I`m trying to point out is that someone as fundamentalist as Omar obviously thinks of himself as being an intrepid liberal journalist and expects me(and everyone else, I`m not the narcissistic one) to be shamed by what Romila Thapar says.
Queen Latifa is gorgeous, I`d ask her!

The current weekly Encounter section in dawn has a hilarious article on the topic of textbooks and the SDPI report:

Politics of textbooks by Ali Usman Qasmi

Note that the link is volatile; the article will disappear in a couple of days.

Here is one of the more risible sections. The author believes that Pakistan cannot correct the ideological indoctrination in its textbooks because the textbooks in India are allegedly also ideologically biased (because, in the author’s view, they show scant respect for Pakistani concerns and Pakistan’s designated heroes). Truly pathetic yet utterly predictable.

“The report under review puts a great emphasis on the ideological indoctrination by using history as a tool. This allegation needs to be reviewed in three different dimensions.

Will it be possible for Pakistan to change the content of its history textbooks when distorted version of history is taught across the border as well? Many would nod their heads in approval.

What is wrong is wrong even if it is practised by others, they would say. The answer is not so simple. Even before the Hindu right wingers started tampering with the history textbooks, the so called liberals were not producing authentic versions of history either.

I have browsed through one such textbook that had Bipan Chandra as one of the co-authors and was surprised to see the indifference shown to the question of Muslim rights and identity, as if they did not exist as real issues in the freedom movement. Jinnah did not receive any respectful words except for being epithetized as Barrister Jinnah.

India`s actions and policies toward princely states were found to be perfectly justified. This behaviour from across the borders binds us in a fix as we cannot remain oblivious of these developments.

Both Mahmud Ghaznavi and Shiva Jee have to be robbed off their noble status. It would be inappropriate on our part to declare Ghaznvi or Ghauri as villains while our Indian counterparts continue to idolize Prithvi Raj and Shivajee.”

(Italics mine).

veeresh jee plz define `hindu` for us pakistanis here --
could u plz

sadna:``Teaching children whole Quranic suras exhorting armed aggression against unbelievers, devoid of any historical context whatsoever, can never equal the fascism inherent in a Hindu saying Hindus and Hinduism were not all bad. That is the framework this guy talks from. The Hindutva-Left ideological tussle on one hand and the real need to find the best rationalization of different Hindu-Muslim historical viewpoints for a composite society, escape him entirely.`` -- sadna your memory is extremely selective, or u have a pea for a brain -- `this guy` (moi) is the one who wrote this article in the first place and submitted it to chowk knowing that paki-bashers, found in the multitudes on the website, would revel in it -- im not sure about the rationalization baloney u talk about escaping me but what surely doesnt escape anyone who reads your post is your attempt to obfuscate the issue of saffronization by semantics -- the `real need` surely was not met by mr joshi and his party`s plans and what they did for education --

sadna and nb are ignoramuses for thinking that pakistan has no one like praful bidwai -- his name is ayaz amir and there r others who openly question pakistani state policy like dr pervez hoodbhoy, hamza alavi (now dead), eqbal ahmed (also dead), mushtaq gazdar (film-maker), ardeshir cowasjee, anwar syed, najam sethi (when he wants to), kamran shafi (the news, on a lesser note, but very critical), masood hasan (also the news), khalid hasan (the daily times and very very critical), ejaz haider (the friday times), abbas rashid (daily times), rehana hakim (editor newsline), tahir mirza (my editor), aamer ahmed khan (editor herald), kamal siddiqi, zobeida mustafa (both my colleagues at dawn) and the list goes on and on -- obviously paki-hating ignoramuses like u wouldnt be expected to know any better --
as for arundhiti roy, as a writer we prob dont have anyone and this doesnt mean taht we r jealous since she has quiet a huge fan following here --


veeresh jee :``please appreciate, for the likes of many Pakistanis especially those in the Pakistani English media, the Muslims we hang out with in India are often not Muslim enough for them.`` -- acha .. wonder how u came to that conclusion??? seriously something is wrong somewhere hain

nb: ``Before you even ask, Omar, I think of myself as slightly liberal because I am a non-post-modern feminist, I believe in gay marriage-and attend commitment ceremonies, and unfortunately for your Rss sympathiser opinions, I have spent much of my life hanging out with Muslims.`` -- yawn... im not asking anything nb neither do i wish to explain how many indians i have or have not befriended -- funny by the way that u should go on the defensive suddenly -- quite atypical of u lot :)


nb again: ``I find it highly interesting that you seem to think of yourself as left-wing. What do you do that qualifies you as left-wing? Wow-you pay your taxes. Of course, you won`t explain-you will pronounce and disappear, but it would make you seem less of a hypocrite.`` -- i never said i was left wing right wing or centre nb --

nb again: ``I wish I could be an RSS sympathiser, life would be more cut and dry, but I can`t, it`s not, life is in shades of grey. It would be easier for you too, if you could just call all Indians who don`t agree with you RSS sympathisers.`` -- oh but u certainly come across as an RSS sympathizer and probably are and dont even know it nb -- and no, i dont call anyone who disagrees with me an RSS sympathizer but based on the stuff some of your compatriots write and post on chowk i think any sensible person would call them that -- i dont see what the problem here is -- most of u call people like tahmed a rightwing religious extremist -- so, someone is now calling u a rightwing anti-minority RSS/VHP/Bajrang Dal supporter and u guys get so riled -- learn to take it both ways -- some of your compatriots quite mistakenly address me as mullah or mian -- the first can be ignored but the second is said in a derogatory sense -- the best option is to begin using shri and pundit with them -- whats teh big deal nb -- if your not an RSS sympathizer then your not -- why does a remark from someone who doesnt know, has never met you and probably will never meet u create such a reaction?


sadna: you should win an award for slander by the way ``Omar might or might not be leftist, but I suspect he belongs to the vast liberal majority of our neighbours who think that killing Hindus has always been the liberal thing to do throughout history, because Hindu = fascist by definition.`` -- i dont hold such views dear -- not hindu but if you`re indian and also a regular interactor on chowk then chances r pretty high that u hate pakistanis of all shades --

``Hence Hindus are supposed to be seen not heard. Even a public speech by a government minister causes hai-tauba among these liberals, baath yahaan tak aa gayi. Then horror of horrors, they appoint their own people to various posts and worst of all express their opinions. `` ???? no idea what you`re talking about -- if you`re talking about the murli manohar joshi reference then u would have to discuss this with mr jang who insisted on specifics of saffronization of education in india and by the way since we r on that here are the specifics:
From a report by Humar Rights Watch:

``The BJP and its allies have also called for the ``Hinduization`` of education in India. As one of his first acts after taking office, the BJP minister of education, Murli Manohar Joshi, appointed scholars sympathetic to the Hindutva cause to national academic bodies.56 At a national education conference in October 1998, Joshi introduced a proposal to ``Hinduize`` the school system. The plan`s more controversial points included compulsory courses on ``Indian values`` from preschool to graduate school, the inclusion of Hindu religious texts into all syllabi, and teacher training in Indian values and culture at all levels. The proposal, drawn up by a group called Vidya Bharati, which functions as the education section of the RSS, was ultimately withdrawn after vociferous objections from several state education ministers.57 The Minister of Education for West Bengal stated, ``The BJP is attempting to destroy the basic secular fabric of [the] country because they don`t believe in secularism.``58

56: Marion Lloyd, ``Hindu Nationalists Campaign to Remake Education in India,`` The Chronicle of Higher Education, February 19, 1999.

57: Ibid.


58: As of February 1999, Vidya Bharati had already set up 14,000 primary and secondary schools and dozens of colleges with a total of 1.8 million students, and sought to expand its networks in areas where Christian missionary activity was particularly strong. RSS also planned to set up a series of Sanskrit-language colleges in an attempt to make the ancient language the common language of all Indians. Vidya Bharati textbooks defend the 1992 destruction of the Babri Masjid by presenting archaeological evidence to suggest that the mosque was built atop the ruins of a Hindu temple which marked the birthplace of the Hindu god Ram. Despite the forced withdrawal of the controversial Vidya Bharati proposal, the BJP-led Uttar Pradesh government followed suit soon after the national conference to make compulsory the singing of Saraswati Vandana (a Hindu prayer to the goddess Saraswati) and Vande Mataram (a patriotic song) by students in its schools. The Uttar Pradesh minister of state for primary education has reportedly been using an RSS model to train education department officers, principals and heads of educational institutions. The learning of the Sanskrit language has also been made mandatory for classes III to VIII. ``Saraswati Vandana made mandatory in Uttar Pradesh schools,`` The Hindu, October 31, 1998.

sadna - no offence but u sound quite like a manic depressive yourself :) -- it ake it your not a bleeding heart liberal, or r u ??

Sadna,
but who is the Pakistani equivalent of Bidwai?

stuka#110
``Police, assisted by security forces, have launched a hunt to nab the militants who fled the scene taking advantage of the chaos which followed the blast, the sources said.``

Why are the ``encounter specialists`` missing when you need them? What good are the patrol parties?

nb #109
``There are no Pakistani equivalents of Praful Bidwai or Arundhati.``

IMO, there are, some of whom as chronically depressed as Bidwai.

nb/109 . . . please appreciate, for the likes of many Pakistanis especially those in the Pakistani English media, the Muslims we hang out with in India are often not Muslim enough for them. This fundamental flaw in reasoning seems to nullify any attempt to explain to some of them that odds on chances are that 1 out of 7 of my friends in India shall be Muslims, and this will include Muslim women, short and dark Muslims, Muslims who do not know a word of Urdu, Muslims who like classic rock and speak English, Muslims who marry non-Muslims, vegetarian Muslims, and a variety of sects of Muslims many of whom are not fundoos by any stretch of imagination. These Muslims are not acceptable to Pakistanis, which is fine by us Indians if they keep that logic to themselves.

Trouble arises when they try to dictate to us in India who is Muslim or not based on their outlook.

Likewise, a certin percentage of people in India will be fundoo, and chances are here that one in seven will be Muslim, too.

For years on chowk I have not been able to get any Pakistani inter-actor to define Muslim for me. I think I shall ask Chaka Khan and Queen Latifa and Cat Stevens too?

Seven children among 10 killed in J&K blast

PTI[ TUESDAY, JUNE 15, 2004 03:46:25 PM ]

SRINAGAR : Ten persons including seven school children were injured in a grenade attack by militants in Anantnag district of Jammu and Kashmir on Tuesday morning, official sources said.




The grenade was lobbed by militants around 10 am at a patrol party of Rashtriya Rifles at village Frisal in Kulgam, but it missed the intended target and exploded on the roadside the sources said.



The children, all in the age group of 8-10 years, were on their way to their school when they were hit by splinters, the sources said adding one of the seriously injured had been shifted to Srinagar for special treatment.



No militant outfit has so far claimed responsibility for the grenade attack.



Police, assisted by security forces, have launched a hunt to nab the militants who fled the scene taking advantage of the chaos which followed the blast, the sources said.

There are no Pakistani equivalents of Praful Bidwai or Arundhati. Omar thinks of himself as a liberal, yet his equivalent among the Indians wouldn`t be dost-mittar or you or me, but someone like gujjubania, who makes no claims to being liberal.To be an Indian liberal, you cannot be a ``practising``- whatever that means-hindu, and you must deny that your ancestors from before the 12th century had any widom whatsoever; that all good things came from areas west of India. No wonder the RSS grows...
Before you even ask, Omar, I think of myself as slightly liberal because I am a non-post-modern feminist, I believe in gay marriage-and attend commitment ceremonies, and unfortunately for your Rss sympathiser opinions, I have spent much of my life hanging out with Muslims.

nb #107
After BJP lost power, J S Rajput has in any way lost his job as NCERT head and his tenure ends on July 15.

Omar might or might not be leftist, but I suspect he belongs to the vast liberal majority of our neighbours who think that killing Hindus has always been the liberal thing to do throughout history, because Hindu = fascist by definition.

Hence Hindus are supposed to be seen not heard. Even a public speech by a government minister causes hai-tauba among these liberals, baath yahaan tak aa gayi. Then horror of horrors, they appoint their own people to various posts and worst of all express their opinions.

Teaching children whole Quranic suras exhorting armed aggression against unbelievers, devoid of any historical context whatsoever, can never equal the fascism inherent in a Hindu saying Hindus and Hinduism were not all bad.

That is the framework this guy talks from. The Hindutva-Left ideological tussle on one hand and the real need to find the best rationalization of different Hindu-Muslim historical viewpoints for a composite society, escape him entirely.

Omar, you pointed out that article as an example of saffronisation. Just saying that because you told Sadna that all you were saying was that some people disagreed. It wasn`t.Of course they did disagree, people disagree with the time in India if they can.
I find it highly interesting that you seem to think of yourself as left-wing. What do you do that qualifies you as left-wing? Wow-you pay your taxes. Of course, you won`t explain-you will pronounce and disappear, but it would make you seem less of a hypocrite.

Well, omar, you still didn`t explain what is wrong with that. I still see nothing wrong with that.I wish I could be an RSS sympathiser, life would be more cut and dry, but I can`t, it`s not, life is in shades of grey. It would be easier for you too, if you could just call all Indians who don`t agree with you RSS sympathisers.Unfortunately, you won`t explain why you said that, because you don`t have to, you can say anything you like and go away.
This is completely bizarre, but obviously it is just you,not all Pakis(that may be a term of abuse in England, but because I`m unfortunately from the same ethnic group, I can use that),talking at people rather than with. You`re obviously not used to explaining yourself or taking responsibility for yourself. Poor little rich kid.

stuka -- ill say it again -- i didnt ask u for your ideological beliefs did i -- sadna, ralphie boy, arjun jee, and jang -- bad retreat guys

sadna: ``And you forgot to point out one indigenous hero or role model celebrated in Pakistan`` -- ever heard of heer or mahiwal sadna -- or jinnah or iqbal -- i suppose uw ouldnt have --
sadna again: ``You mean to say Indian Muslims WANT to be held responsible for the past crimes of foreign brigands? `` -- no (exasperated totally now) i am not saying that.. ufff -- cant u read sadna -- i am saying that this interpretation is debatable and that some people in india might disagree with u -- dont know how u got that inference --

jang -- i gave u stuff from the indian press and sources -- i think that should be more credible than what a pakistani journalist would have to say on the issue -- dont u think so?

jang again: ``Thanks again, but I was hoping for something original, considering you are a journalist, and perhaps have access to some material not accessible or already known to us.`` -- actually jang no need for that, because the saffronization policies of the previous govt were in the public realm -- were frequently debated in mainstream indian newspapers and u want proof ????


sadna again: ``As you repeatedly say, you don`t come here to debate, you come here to tell us off. Well, you will henceforth do it on your own time, not mine.`` -- sadna do u have a habit of making up things -- i never said i dont come here for debate but that i dont need to explain myself to people -- debate is not about asking launching attacks on a person`s race, nation or whatever and then expecting him to respond -- and yes i would rather indulge in debate with people who can be reasonably civil and most importantly tolerant of other peoples views -- that im afraid is quite missing with most (not all) of the indian interactors here -- as for my time, your time, sadna, i will be all the more happier if u dont respond to me -- i am not asking u or forcing u to come on chowk , or am i?