My Pakistan Diary: Roots! A Spiritual Journey

Though it is too late. By chance I was surfing the net and I saw this article. No dout you love your birthplace. it is beyond the dout.I highly appriciate the efforts of the auther who went to that area where he was born. This is the love for land irrespective of cast, creed and relegion. I enjoyed this article. I belong to the salt range area and wish to see that place, an old historic fort there.

Comment #32

Dear Urstruly,

Your comment “As for me, I would rather stick my finger in the mouth of a rattle-snake than shake hands with a Hindu and call him my brother. I have better chances of survival with a snake rather than a Hindu. This is the legacy of your generation. This is the gift you have given to your new generation. It is little too late to seek atonement thru your roots. Isn`t it?”

My Answer
There is no need for such a adventure to put your hand into the snake’s mouth. If the snake bites u, it is the snake who will die from your poison. Have some mercy/amnesty for the poor reptile. Are there any rattle snakes found in Pakistan. They are most found in America.

Forget hand shake with a Hindu, even the Americans, Chinese & the Europeans are afraid to visit your country. Most of the foreign embassies will warn/refrain u from visiting Pakistan.. This is evident from the tourism figures released in Pakistan. Look, With on one to hand shake with u it is only reptile snake left.

Iqbal Singh - mumbai

#137 by Ralph on June 18, 2004 9:08am PT

Yes! Bengalis have a fairly good understanding of materialism and free thinking. Some of the works on scientific materialism are really scholarly- their critique of dominant interpretations of religions like Christianity, Islam and hinduism is well published as well.

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/ayaz/ayaz.htm
June 25

Paradise Threatened
Ayaz Amir

ahmadzai, i did that to the editors quite a few days back -- apparently they want to publish articles only on (a) the karachi situation or (religion) or (c) walkabouts in pakistan ... JK ... but i did submit it some time back -- the guy who i wrote about got in touch immediately -- names Omar ahmadzai

stuka: ``What facts are wrong? The fact is that there was an attack at the Marriott.`` -- the hotel was not attacked but the US consulate right next to it -- yes, im sure its business must have suffered immensely (and as u say physical damage) but it wasnt the target of the attack -- similarly the ABN AMRO head office next to it was also damaged but we all know that it directly wasnt the target of the attackers -- if your head office people think that then they have obviously been misled -- everyone in pakistan knows that the hashwani people own the marriot -- im pretty sure the jihadis would know that too -- however sitting in DC or wherever if u insist on knowing the `facts` then please hold on to them --

Umar:

You should post on Chowk your article on tourism that got published last week in Dawn`s opinion column.

rahulmal#136
This is what I posted on the shiraz board. Hope, it helps.

``As a non-believer, when I read qur`an, it seemed to me to be the handiwork of a clever man who used God to do his bidding by putting words in His mouth that suited him from time to time. But then, it is no different from other religions where people have created all sort of myths to suit their ends. As a religious faith, I do not see anything in islam against modernity. The five pillars of islam are kalima, namaz, roza, zakat and haj. As long as muslims stick to them, they cause no problem to themselves or, what is more important to me as a non-mulsim, to others. I would indeed speculate that the reason why one does not see the kind of grinding misery in the middle east or even Pakistan that one sees in a country like India is probably due to the empahsis on zakat and philanthropy in islam.

The problem arises when one brings in the political islam into the picture. The five pillars make no mention of dar-ul-harb, blasphemy, umma, jihad, sharia or even the immutability of quran. So, the reform movement in islam, if it is to succeed, has to emphasise the separation of political islam from the faith as represented by the five pillars. Can it be done?``

rahulmal, dost-mittar

If you ask a Sikh, Christian, Hindu, or Muslim what a good Sikh, Christian, Hindu or Muslim is, he will give you the answer he thinks you want to hear.

The only way to find out the truth about his beliefs is to examine what kind of a person this individual actually admires, who he considers as his hero.

Who are heroes of Muslims? That should tell you what a good Muslim is.

kaurasach # 131

Bengalis have traditionally been a progressive people. Yet knowing the nature of Islam, I fear for Bangladesh`s religious future. The good news is that many Bangladeshis are speaking out. Whether Bangladesh will become a unique country in which liberals are able to dominate Islamists within the framework of equal rights for all and without the use of brute military force remains to be seen.

For the same reasons, the fact that there was a major coverage of the event you mentioned in big Pakistani newspapers tells me that such events are not very ordinary. Again, I am under no delusions about Islam. There is a proportion of Islamists who believe that raping and converting Christian, Hindu, Sikh girls is their religioius obligation. Or that these women are theirs for the taking. I would just not color all or majority of Pakistanis like that.

DMji,

Not sure if you`ve given up on this, but I`ll give it another try...

``and all of them believe in the quraan`` Well, that`s what I`m saying. All of them have a certain immutable and central angle to their faith- the Quran and Hadees (Hadith in Arabic). There is a single Quran that all Muslims believe as word of God. So, a good Muslim is one who follows the principles laid down in these religious texts.

And that is why I`m saying, Aurangzeb the zealot was a good Muslim. This person ended the `infidel` practise of darshana or deedar (or whatever is the Persian word for that) of Kings. He never used a single penny from state exchequer, lived an austere lifestyle, took only four wives, and religiously followed all the other things like Namaaz, jakat, Jizyah et all. Pious Muslims fondly remember that Alamgir used to sew skull-caps and copy Qurans to earn his livelihood. The imposition of Jizyah and destruction of Varanasi Shiva temple was part of the same `orthodox` mindset. So, a good Muslim, a terrible human being!!

``They would be best answered by a coreligionist``

Whose co-religionist?

HP

That hindu women get raped in pakistan is true, but more importantly its the old baggage which we carry gives more import. There is a picture of a turki/pathan uncivilized soldier coming into India and cramping our style. The Siddis and Habshis were infamuos slave-traders on the arabian sea coast, and the bad memories persist. While the angrez, firangi and the francisi also cramped our style politically, they dont have a bad image in above discussed extra-marital conquering-type relation. Interestingly, this baggage is shared by hindus and muslims both, as demonstrated by several interactors here who posted that they are adonis and all hindu women are waiting with open arms for them. This in addition to the disproportinate muslim influence in the indian mafia, involved in flesh trade, makes the rape stories significance much higher than what mere statistics would suggest. But then, statistics are not always the whole story.

``dude u work in the marriot hq and u guys have your facts wrong - the marriot in khi happens to be right next to the US consulate -- hence the attacks ``

Omar:

What facts are wrong? The fact is that there was an attack at the Marriott. The fact is that it is a Pakistani owned hotel franchised with us. As to motivations, you r guess is as good as mine. I do know that the hotel itsaelf had sustained damage.

Dost-mitter,

I have told you before also that this so called ``fair`` is a subjective thing.
What is fair-mindedness ?

If the Pakis want 100% of Kashmir and India says you got 35% and no more - what
is fair ?

I found that everytime you were to comment on Paki behavior - you had to bring
in some Indian example (which may even be unrelated ) just to appear fair !

Why do you have this need to be ``fair`` - should you not focus on facts and truth
of an issue ? That will help you to become more objective and capable of critical
thinking. Instead you will become like the Pakis - always finding justification for
any action in the guise of being fair.

mull over it.

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satyamvada:
You are confusing fair-mindedness with equivalence.
On indic philosophies, I agree that there are different from the Abrahamic religions, but I would also add far eastern philosophies like taoism and shintoism to the indic list.

rahulmal:
I know it is more difficult to define a ``good hindu`` than a ``good muslim`` but even the latter is not so easy, as there are shias, ismailis, wahabis, deobandi, barelvis, salafis, hanafis, sufis, etc. among muslims and all of them believe in the quraan.

``How about answering some questions posed in my last post?``
They would be best answered by a coreligionist.

kaurasach:

Yes, the Gurus did ask to bear arms. But the times have changed. Now, there are often alternative ways of dealing with human rights problems.

> But if I have the ability to dispute an unjust statement, I think I should do that too.

With pleasure, HP. We are on the same page. I myself wouldn`t classify the rapes in Sindh as rapes of Hindu girls by Muslim landlords. True, being Hindu, the girls and their families suffer further disadvantages but the rapes are not Hindu-specific.

IMO social-economic oppression by one dominant class of another class of people is a common fact, present all the time in all societies. Unless one can establish clear religious motivations and inspirations, one mustn`t turn these social/political struggles into religious ones. The latter can never be solved, and are far more dangerous.

#125 by Ralph

“but in the villages Sindh, Hindu girls do not seem to be safe from Muslims feudals.”

It is not like sindhi feudals are running around holding their wieners to rape the first girl they see.
The girls that are forced by the landowners are actually daughters, sisters, and wives of people who work for them. It is horrible but it is there and there is no denying that. There may be some Hindus in there but as I said religion is not the deciding factor-social position is.
I will be surprised if that does not happen in India. There is not a whole lot of difference in Hindus and Muslims when it comes to humiliating and taking advantage of the poor in our societies.

Most of the Hindus in Sindh are middleclass in different professions, businessmen, or are small landowners themselves. I am sure some of them do not hesitate to sleep with girls of their Muslim employees. In fact, I know of some who never thought religion could be a problem in bed.

``This isn`t a religious thing in itself, but if, a la Muslims, one wanted to turn it into a story of religious oppression, it wouldn`t be very hard. Don`t you think? ``

I agree with you. But if I have the ability to dispute an unjust statement, I think I should do that too.

Kaurasach.

My objection was on your blanket statement of rape.

Incidents of extortion or “Bhatta” or the protection money are common in Sindh. It is not confined to Hindus alone. The MQM of Karachi collects tremendous amount of money in Karachi and Hyderabad in Bhatta. That unfortunately is the cost of doing business in Pakistan. Mullahs too collect donations for Jihad often forcibly.

I think “Bhai” in Bombay also collect this from Hindus and Muslims alike. (At least in the movies.)

Lawlessness is a major problem everywhere in Sindh. Hindus mentioned in your post have not left Pakistan because of kidnapping or extortions. There are problems in Pakistan and Hindus are impacted by that too. I doubt that there is any systematic effort to “openly” rape Hindu girls in Pakistan.

#124 by kaurasach

Plight of Hindus in Sindh and Balochistan
By Khaled Ahmed

http://www.pakistan-facts.com/article.php/20040514194340463

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HP # 122

If Pakistani rapists had to rape only non Muslim girls, many of these men would die unsatisfied. So girls may not always be picked up for religious reasons, but in the villages Sindh, Hindu girls do not seem to be safe from Muslims feudals.

This isn`t a religious thing in itself, but if, a la Muslims, one wanted to turn it into a story of religious oppression, it wouldn`t be very hard. Don`t you think?

#119 by kaurasach

“Since partition, Hindu girls are openly kidnapped and raped in Pakistan”

The Bitter truth: that no such thing has happened in Pakistan. Not once, not ever after 1947 killings in Punjab. Hindu and Sikh males then had no hesitation in lowering their cloths either.

Some people have just taken upon themselves to lie and lie with a straight face to prove their shallow points. Their self righteousness is sickening!

This moron makes an outlandish statement “since partition…” and nothing to show for it.
Pakistan is not a closed society as this awful liar thinks it is. We know about our neighbors and what’s happening in our town. If even a single Hindu girl had been raped in my neighborhood, when I lived in Pakistan, I would have known about it.

Girls are raped in Pakistan; but they are not picked to be raped based on their religion.

India has community problems. They cannot resolve bitterness in Hindu-Muslim relations in India and think that Hindu and Muslims have the same bitterness in Pakistan too.

No MethaJhoota! your hallucinating bigoted head is making up things that have no relevance to reality.

Dost-Mitter.

You are indulging in your equivalency game again.

You are projecting a mid-east/european concept of ``religion`` onto India.

In the rest of the world there is no such thing as Religion. There are a lot
of social practices based on a set of philosophies.
To be a Hindu - one needs a set of sufficiency test ( but not necessity tests)
wheras to be a christian/jew/muslim - there are are necessity tests.

This is why the pseudo-secularists can abuse dharma and get away with it.

Ignoramous fools who have not read the various philosophies and the original
texts of India proclaim Hinduism Buddhism, Sikhism Jainism as religions and
try to compare with Christianity/Islam/Judaism etc.

Indian philosophies use a core set of ideas and categories which are totally different from
concepts of ``religion`` while at the same time the followers of these philosphies
have the same social lifestyles and values. That is why people who follow Indic
panths can get along without friction for the most part.

The concept of a good Hindu does not even arise. A fellow who does not lead
a dharmic life is bound to suffer the cycles of birth and rebirth. Worldly behaviour
invites worldly responses. A fellow does not attain moksha/nirvana either in Vedanta or
Bouddha or Jaina without attaining ``knowledge``.

THat is why there are the Smritis - which deal with worldy behavior - and these
smritis can change according time and place. There are more than 80 smritis.
Then there is the Shruti - the adhyatma vidya - brahma-jnana: which can be gained
only by yoga and contemplation and meditiation and study - all this will lead to
moksha or nirvana.

I urge you to study the vaious scholarly
works and understand the dharmic panths. Unfortunately you are trying to project learnt
western/middle-eastern categories onto Indian thought.

Satyamvada # 97

Now you know, after reading # 101, the answer to your querry, why I usually go to extremes to scrape the truth from under a sugarcoating? And how hard it is.

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stuka -- dude u work in the marriot hq and u guys have your facts wrong - the marriot in khi happens to be right next to the US consulate -- hence the attacks -- everyone in pakistan knows that the marriot is owned by sadru hashwani and part of the same group which owns the PC --

rsridhar jee -- punjabis are punjabis et al.. by the way r u implying that north and south india are a homogenous mixture ?

DMji,

``Is a hindu widow who does not become a sati and even remarries a good hindu``. Yes, Hindus expunged this practise from their belief-system, remember RamMohan Roy :-)

``Is a hindu who does not bow before a statue of a monkey god a good hindu?`` Yes, because no theological argument (as per the tenets of Sanathan dharma) can prove that a particular form of representational worship is truer than any other form. Further, even if a Hindu does not bow before any idol, he is still a good Hindu. Ever heard of `Sagun` (representational) and `nirgun` forms of God. Don`t worry if you don`t. I was talking to a Muslim friend and the topic veered to murthy pooja (as it generally does in Hindu-Muslim discussions). I told him about representational and non-representational forms of worship. He couldn`t believe this.

``Is a hindu who refuses to drink `charnamrit` in a village temple thinking it might make him sick a good hindu?`` Yes, If someone belongs to `nirgun` school of vedanta, they may not accept `charnamrita`.

How about answering some questions posed in my last post?

veeresh#111
I agree!
In fact, I wanted to write another article on Pakistan entitled, ``Stirrings of change!``. But this series was getting too long and I thought I was hogging too much chowk space. But I have noticed some very interesting changes like (a) renewed interest in panjabi music and language (b) revival of sarees (c) revival of interest in classical music and dance (c) interest in arts, with galleries showing a fair amount of exposure of human form (d) boisterous parties where taboos are being broken. I think Musharraf can take a lot of credit for bringing a breath of fresh air in the suffocating lives of the people where everything `fun` was frowned upon.

mubakr#114
Thanks for the invite. Will do, insha-allah!

rahulmal#114
I was talking of people being good human beings regardless of whether or not they were being `good` muslims, hindus, christians, etc. Is a hindu widow who does not become a sati and even remarries a good hindu? Is a hindu who does not bow before a statue of a monkey god a good hindu? Is a hindu who refuses to drink `charnamrit` in a village temple thinking it might make him sick a good hindu? The same goes for muslims as well. There are muslims who believe that one should accept only the essence of quran and the essence of quran is just being a good human being. You can find them at chowk, too! Whether or not they are good muslims is for them and for other muslims to judge.

kaurasach:
I do not know if Banda Bahadur forcibly converted Muslims and if so, how many? But I can say that if he did, he could not find support for his action in the teachings of Granth Sahib or of any sikh guru; indeed the gurus went to the extent of taking up arms against forcible conversions. Sikhism, indeed, presents a beautiful example of a religion which grew without anyone seeking conversions; a significant part of the growth came from several parents ``donating`` their children to the panth without embracing the panth themselves. That they probably did not think that they were converting their children into another religion is a separate issue.

satyamvada:
I do agree that muslims in India have more constitutional rights than anywhere else, including several muslim countries. My problem is only with providing them with safety and security to live their lives in dignity and without fear.
I do agree that muslims need to do more to bridge the educational gap. But here, too, the political parties can help by not treating them as vote banks and try to modernise the madrassa education. Major political parties cannot escape responsibility for catering to the most obscurantist elements of the muslim community - even the BJP was interested in getting the endorsement of Bukhari to seek muslim votes.

DM ji,

``But I do make a clear distinction between Muslims and Islam. Muslims are human beings and there are good and bad Muslims, just as there are good and bad Hindus, Sikhs, Christians, etc.``

Does a good Muslim make a good human being? Is Usama a good Muslim, was Aurangzeb a good Muslim? Can they be categorized as good human beings? How about Zia? Is he a good Muslim, is he also a good human being? What about Akbar, amongst all Muslim kings of India he earned maximum points for good behaviour (probably Tipu Sultan will be the close second)!! Towards the end of his reign, he declared a new religion, `din-i-Elahi`. We all know that is blasphemous from Muslim point of view?

I think it is good to talk about this difference between Muslim people and Islam religion? But, is it not an attempt to beat the pseudo-secular trumpet, some people are so adept at? If a Muslim doesn`t believe in religion, he is an agnostic, who just happens to have an Arab name. So, isn`t making this distinction an attempt at obfuscation of the danger that Islam poses to other belief systems. BTW, I include Judaism and Christianity in this threat scenario because they share the principle of ``single truth`` with Islam. A nasty turn of events and sufficient strength would see Christians/Jews also killing heathens/Gentiles.

Ally:

i am just 32...and didnt have any part in trying to convert anybody to islam. i see it ridiculous without being a model muslim and trying to bring people to my religion. i believe that all should be allowed to believe in whatever they belive in. simple.

i am not responsible for what hindus and sikhs did in indian punjab. we also came from majeetha near amritsar and my grandfather killed her eldest daughter, my phupho, lest she was taken away by sikhs. all that happened was terrible. my eldest uncle passed away last year remembering his slained sister`s name.

i apologised for the sins my fellow muslims committed in the name of religion that speaks in Surah Kafiroon about keeping all people`s individual faiths.

maybe partition was a silly decision and i can prove it!

DM:

Next time you come to Pakistan...you are NOT allowed to leave here without seeing Malikwal and - for some comic relife - myself too.

So near...yet so far...!

DM/33 . . . achievement in the sense that I do get a feeling that whatever is/was good in the geographical boundaries of Pakistan, not allowed to flourish there for the past few decades after the overall drop in gene pool due to exchanging populations and also due to some mistaken loyalty to things Arab, seem to be slowly flowing in two directions:-

a) A revival in Pakistan, where possible, for example, folk theatre, motor vehicles, free speech in vernaculars, and robust lifestyles without healthcare systems.

b) An outflow into India, wherever not possible, for example the English media and its attraction to matters Indian like fashion shows and actresses crying at borders which are after all common heritage.

Forgive the puns, please?

Satyamvada,

You are right ! The sooner muslims get out of the seige mentality, the better it is for the world. They have no one to complain but themselves. If the muslim past has been perfect, why is the present tense ? Muslims should stop living in the past imagined grandeur, stop cribbing over the perceived loss of it, learn from their brothers in Malaysia, Turkey and learn to put religion behind their personal lives. They are not minorities, a 1:3 ratio when India was undivided wasn`t really a lop-sided ratio. Even if it was, why should that matter ? Aren`t the Sikhs, Buddhists, Parsis living in India now ? Are they clamoring for a separate state ? Muslims should honestly question themselves as to what it is in their thinking and culture that sows seeds of dissent in almost all the nations where they do not constitue a numerical majority. Hindus are proud to say, there are always reformationist movements taking place within their religion. Omar, you need not worry about the fate of `minorities` in India. No one really is one, nor isn`t. To the non-muslims, Islam is what it appears to them, no matter how much muslims shriek.

nakhok #107
Thanks, that is informative.

Dost-Mitter,

You write that Muslims are entitled safety, security and dignity in India.
Show me one other country in the world where Muslims have the amount of rights that
muslims in India have ?

With rights come responsibilities - every individual has to work hard, get
and education and prosper. Do you know that the SC/ST`s in India now spend
almost the same amount of money on education, stay almost the same amount
in school as obc`s and forward castes. However, the muslim community lags
even the sc/st`s !!!! Even in Kerala where the muslims have lots of gulf money,
they lag in education compared to others.

When you pander to muslim feeling of victimization, you are just encouraging
complaints and providing reasons for failure. You will be perpetuating the
bigotry of low expectations from Indian muslims. In the long run, by pandering
you will be condemning to failure.

What is needed is a dose of reality and that one has to work hard and get
an education.

Everybody in India is a minority in one way or the other. There should be no
special rights or entitlements. One has struggle to get an education and make
the best use of available opportunities.

# 100 by sadna

+++++
``What good has a sizeable Hindu MINORITY done Bangladesh``
+++++

Decades-old land law in Bangladesh marginalises Hindus
Sharier Khan (OneWorld.net)
Dhaka, June 14

A discriminatory law enacted decades ago in Muslim majority Bangladesh continues to deprive hundreds of thousands of minority Hindus of land rights, despite being repealed in 2001.

Before Bangladesh`s independence from Pakistan in 1971, West Pakistani military rulers had enacted the Enemy Property Act, 1965, to drive Hindus out to neighbouring India after grabbing their lands.

Since then, encroachers have misused the law with the help of corrupt state authorities to grab property by identifying Hindus as ``enemies of the state.``

Explains the secretary of the Bangladesh Economic Association and land researcher, professor Abul Barakat, ``Following independence, a predominantly Muslim but secular Bangladesh should have had abolished this law. But the state renamed it the Vested Property Act to acquire the properties of people from West Pakistan who had left after the war.``

The four-decades-old law has seen around a million Hindus lose at least 2.1 million acres of land.

To amend the situation, the former Awami League Government had enacted the Vested Property Repeal Act in 2001. But it was never implemented because of objections from politically influential encroachers and legal complications.

Explains a senior land ministry source, ``While the Government is responsible for taking over all land under the Enemy Property Act, in reality it does not control 99 per cent of these lands. If the repeal is implemented, the Government will have to return the lands to their rightful owners. But how will it do so when it has lost track of these lands?``

The initiative further lost steam when the Bangladesh Nationalist Party (BNP) led ruling coalition came to power.

Charges the vice chairman of the Bangladesh Bar Council, barrister Amir-Ul Islam, ``The BNP government has stayed the execution of the repeal with ulterior motives, putting the minority community in trouble.``

Defending the government, Law Minister Moudud Ahmed informs, ``We are scrutinizing the (repeal) act. The issue has a legacy of nearly 40 years now. It is a very difficult problem that cannot be resolved overnight. But we are committed to tackling it.``

Concedes advocate Mahbubur Rahman, chairman of the Parliamentary Committee on Land, ``The government is aware of land grabbing and the committee is working on reforms. We are recommending laws to take stern action against encroachers.``

The law seems to have served its masters well. The NGO for the landless Samata found that because of migration to neighbouring India, Hindus comprised just 9.2 per cent of the population in 2001, down from 18.4 per cent in 1961.

Abul Barakat also conducted research which revealed that apart from Hindus, land encroachment victims also included 31 other ethnic minority groups that comprise 12 per cent of the country`s 140 million population.

According to him, the share of landless households increased from 19 per cent in 1960 to 56 per cent in 1996.

But Barakat maintains that, ``Hindus are the worst affected as they are the biggest minority group who owned plenty of land before the discrimination began. More than one-third Hindus have turned landless or marginal landowners.``

Agrees Hindu lawyer Arun Pal. ``All the Hindus of two villages in our region in Gopalganj (140 kilometers southwest of Dhaka) have become landless from 1965. Over the years, many of my neighbours have gone to India and many others are living destitute on other peoples` lands although they are land owners themselves,`` he discloses.

Pal is lucky his ancestral home was not seized, unlike 50-year old Debashish of Tangail, 120 kilometers north of Dhaka. Debashish`s life changed in the early 1980s when encroachers in connivance with land officials took away his lands.

Recalls Debashish, ``I discovered I was no longer the owner of my land one morning when I went to the land office to pay my taxes.`` Encroachers promptly descended on his property and drove him away.

But Debashish has not yet abandoned hope. ``I am waiting for the Government to implement the repeal of the Vested Property Act,`` he says optimistically.

Rights groups are also campaigning for the cause of people like Debashish.

Lashes out land rights activist and Dhaka University professor Ahmed Kamal, ``This law has caused mass migration, dispossession of huge amounts of land and other assets, breaking of family ties, the loss of human potential, disruption in social capital formation, and the creation of parasitic vested interest groups.``

Activist and advocate Subrata Chowdhury asks the Government to ensure the repeal of the Act and help dispossessed people get their land back, calling the legislation a ``death trap for the minorities.``

Leader of the National Committee of Vested Property Act Resistance Movement Kamal Lohani terms the Act a ``black law,`` charging, ``It discriminates against religious minorities in a democratic society. Yet the government is reviving it by empowering district officials to lease out so-called `vested` property.``

He adds that grabbers have captured 4.2 million acres of Government land. ``If we can recover them, hundreds of thousands of landless families will be rescued from a life of poverty.``

Bangladesh has 37.4 million acres of land area with 60 per cent under agricultural use. According to the NGO Samata, 57 per cent of the population is landless.

Faruk #103
Thanks, good article. A romantic like Kuldip Nayar speaking of ISI hmm.

Kaurasach: I think you are going into the emotional mode. How can you justify the killings of muslims by Banda. I know the historical circumstances and I can say I do understand the fire of revenge that Banda and his men had burning inside but saying it was good because he converted some muslims forcefully and now all of Malwa is sikh majority brings you down to the same level that you complain about muslim invaders. Also it is factually incorrect...Banda killed lot of muslims in and around Sirhind and other areas but he did not succeed in converting many...certainly not to the level of changing demography of the region.

re: sadna # 99
Here is an article on Banglasesh from todays express

Be generous. Be realistic
New Delhi can conquer the anti-India feeling in Bangladesh



The anti-India feeling in Bangladesh is so strong, you can taste it. When even Sheikh Hasina, considered New Delhi’s friend, refuses to preside over the launching of a book that commends India’s contribution to the liberation of Bangladesh, the situation should cause concern. While in Dhaka, I was reminded of what people told me at Lahore and Islamabad after East Pakistan had seceded from West Pakistan: Hum ne dholak baja ke dekh li hai; tum bhi dekh lo (We have experienced the drum beat, it’s your turn now).

Prime Minister Khaleda Zia had a curious explanation for the anti-India feeling. She said that since people in Bangladesh hated Sheikh Hasina and her party, the Awami League, they automatically hated India because ‘‘you are their friends.’’ Law Minister Moudud Ahmed expressed similar sentiments. It seemed as if the ruling Bangladesh Nationalist Party (BNP) had a planned strategy to whip up anti-India feeling so as to cover up its government’s bad performance. Since Jamat-e-Islami is a coalition partner, it has used the anti-India feeling to stoke the fires of fundamentalism. In fact, two Jamat ministers, holding charge of agriculture and social welfare, are all over Bangladesh, with their party cadres and welfare officers, to sow the seeds of prejudice. The one lakh-plus Ahmedi community is their special target. The Jamat wants it to be declared a non-Muslim minority as has been done by Pakistan. The Jamat also flaunts its pride in the fact that the name of Dhaka airport is written in Arabic, apart from English and Bengali.



The Jamat’s relentless effort to ‘‘Islamise’’ Bangladesh has already taken shape. A fanatic Bangla Bhai, who is indulging in violence against the Awami League and the leftists, has already killed eight. He is said to have worked with Al-Qaida chief Osama-bin Laden. Bangla Bhai’s Jagrata Muslim Janata Bangladesh (JMJB), belatedly noticed by the Khalida government after America’s warning, has opened camps to train cadres at Bagmara, Durgapur, Atrai and Nalanda.

The Jamat on the one hand and the JMJB on the other appear to have an overall understanding with the ULFA, the underground Nagas and the ISI, all ploughing their own furrow. New Delhi considers these developments a threat to its security and has reportedly said so to Bangladesh Foreign Minister Morshed Khan when he was recently at Delhi.

He, in turn, is said to have drawn India’s attention to a list of ‘‘escaped criminals’’ which Dhaka had forwarded to Delhi, a quid-pro-quo of sorts. Sheikh Hasina, extremely worried over the future of Bangladesh, feels helpless. ‘‘What can I do?’’ she asks. ‘‘Those who have brought Khaleda to power should have known the repercussions. They are the ones who must think of a way out.’’ She has no plans to go back to parliament which the Awami League has practically boycotted since the formation of the BNP government. (The Awami League attends parliament for just a few hours after every 90 days lest the members should be disqualified for their absence). The former prime minister blames the Khaleda government for allowing the communal forces to become stronger. Her argument is that the BNP would rather have fundamentalists ruling the country than the Awami League. She also blames New Delhi for the present state of affairs and accuses it of ‘‘helping Khaleda.’’ Her hatred for the Bangladesh Prime Minister is pathological as is Khaleda’s hatred for Hasina. No third group is on the horizon and I feel the country will oscillate from one leader to another for years to come. Both are in their mid-50s.

I found that donor countries are agitated. They felt concerned after the recent attack on the British High Commissioner at Hazrat Shahjalal’s shrine in Sylhet. Although Bangladesh has maintained a growth rate of five per cent, it is afraid that the anti-India feeling would make cooperation with New Delhi more difficult besides telling upon Dhaka’s economic future. Khaleda favours transshipment, not transit — some progress.

Things would have looked still gloomier if elections in India had not lifted the pall of darkness somewhat. These polls have done what hundreds of goodwill delegations have failed to do. India is being spoken about in superlatives for its democratic and secular credentials. ‘‘Great elections, great people, great leaders,’’ an editor of a leading daily from Dhaka e-mailed me.

I found the comments still more effusive when I reached Bangladesh. Sonia Gandhi is their icon. Atal Bihari Vajpayee has gone down a peg — only a peg. Bangladeshis never tire of exclaiming that only a country like India could have a Muslim as president, a Sikh as prime minister and a Roman Catholic as chief of the ruling United Progressive Alliance.

Our elections are converting the bias and prejudice against us into admiration, even adulation. I found people looking towards India with envy and hope. This is an opportune time to harness the goodwill that the polls have generated. I recall the days of the Bangladesh liberation when camaraderie oozed and the two countries prepared blueprints for integrated development. It looks like the same atmosphere of friendship can be revived.

‘‘After many years the train has arrived,’’ said a senior Bangladesh minister. ‘‘If not boarded now, it would not come again.’’ We can prove to them that India is there to help that country in its progress and development. Why not allow Bangladeshi products to come into India duty-free? Today our official trade is worth $1 billion as against $1 million from their side. The non-official trade is said to be $2 billion in favour of India. If we could help give the Bangladeshis more purchasing power, trade would be proportionately higher. Illegal migration might stop, people would find work in their own country. Dhaka seems prepared for the gas-based joint industrial collaborations to set the ball rolling. Is South Block listening? My five-day stay in Dhaka has convinced me that a generous and realistic attitude towards Bangladesh can help us fight the anti-India feeling there.


by Kuldip Nayar

re:#91 by mohar11
I agree.
It is no use making the Pakis more paranoid than they already are!
But still, one needs to remember the past if only to learn some lessons from it. Indians must try very hard not to follow the wrong path that Pakis took 50 years ago. That much is very clear.
Sridhar

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Kaurasach, satyamvada:

Nobody who lived through the experiences of the partition can forget it; in fact, even their children and grandchildren are still afraid to go to Pakistan because they are afraid of their physical safety there, such is the trauma of that event. But I do realize that this was a terrible time and the history of the subcontinent was, in general, that of peaceful coexistence, though not of brotherhood. I also do not believe in guilt through association; the muslims of Gujarat were not responsible for the brutality of their coreligionists at Godhra; and the children and grandchildren of those who did the mayhem on either side in 1947 can not be held responsible for the acts of their grandparents. One also learns that while some people indulged in killings, others tried to protect and helped their friends and neighbours find a safe passage, often at considerable risks to their own lives.

I have no illusions about the nature of Islam. The more I learn and read about Islam, the more I agree with hamidms/sameerjbs and urstrulys than with the tahmeds. I am wary of those who want us to accept that islam is a religion of peace and tolerance instead of saying that it should become a religion of peace and tolerance; who say that punishments for blasphemy, apostacy, jihad etc. are misinterpreted or are not an essential part of islam rather than saying that islam should be purged of these medieval concepts. These people, even if they are sincere in their beliefs, probably kept saying the same things while their brothers kept using their sharp swords to wipe out traces of other religions and turn kaafirstans into nuristaans, first in Arabia, then in Persia, Afghanistan and so on. I have said these kind of things at chowk before.

But I do make a clear distinction between muslims and islam. Muslims are human beings and there are good and bad muslims, just as there are good and bad Hindus, Sikhs, Christians, etc. I also realize that if my great grandfather had converted to islam, enslaved by a conqueror or my great grandmother raped/made sex-slave by a muslim soldier, I too would be singing praises of islam today.

Satyamvada:
There is no obfuscation on my part. I do believe in what I wrote to urstruly. But I also believe that India has not provided muslims with safety, security and dignity that they are entitled to as citizens of India.

And I have never implied any moral equivalence between India and Pakistan. Nor should there be any. Despite attempts to reinterpret the two nation theory and dig out some forgotten speeches by Jinnah, hindus and Sikhs were never promised any rose garden in the new country. They knew that in the ‘land of the pure’ they were the impurities and would be treated as such.

The situation was not the same on the Indian side. India chose to give guarantees to Muslims that they will not only be treated at par with the hindus, their communal rights as minorities will also be protected and these guarantees were enshrined in the constitution. India owes it to itself and its Muslims that those guarantees be honoured. We chose to be measured by different standards, and should not complain now that we are asked to measure up.

``What good has a sizeable Hindu MINORITY done Bangladesh``

nakhok #98
What good has a sizeable Hindu majority done Bangladesh except to create hell for those Hindus. They could not stop Bangladesh from becoming an Islamic republic.

They could do nothing to change the Bangladeshi law `Vested Property Act `, where the property of Hindus who have fled can be seized and redistributed, making it very lucrative for Muslims to force Hindus to flee.

Or they would have been raped and killed in large numbers in revenge by ruling party when Khalida Zia`s BNP won, like happened in 2001.

Did I mention Hindus being raped and killed. omigosh, that makes me a fascist, because for liberals, for Hindus to be raped and killed or driven out of their homes is their justly deserved fate, whether Pakistan, J&K or Bangladesh.

If Pakistan had retained its pre-1947 religous and cultural diversity:

---

http://www.dawn.com/2004/06/15/op.htm#1

DAWN, Karachi, Pakistan
15 June 2004 Tuesday 26 Rabi-us-Saani 1425

Ties with India: what if...
By Shahid Javed Burki

..... had the partition of British India not resulted in a thorough ethnic cleansing of what is today`s Pakistan, the country today would be a multi-cultural and multi-religious society, tolerant of a variety of different views, particularly on religion.

But the bloodshed that resulted from the way British India was partitioned had unanticipated demographic consequences. It resulted in the movement of some 14 million people across the newly defined border between India and Pakistan. .....

..... In the 1940s, the area that now constitutes Pakistan, Muslims accounted for slightly more than two-thirds of the total population. Today Muslims account for nearly 97 per cent of the citizenry. .....

..... What if the partition of the subcontinent of British India had not resulted in such a massive transfer of populations between the successor states of Pakistan and India? .....

..... Had Pakistan not been so thoroughly ``Muslimized,`` it would not be facing today the problem of Islamic extremism - a problem about which President Pervez Musharraf wrote in an article contributed recently to The Washington Post. I have coined the verb ``to Muslimize`` to deal with two different phenomena in Pakistan`s history. .....

..... Once Pakistan was established, the Jamaat-i-Islami moved to the new country while the JUI cultivated support for itself among the refugees who had settled in Karachi and in the northwestern areas of the new country.

With Pakistan now a totally Muslim country, these two groups found it easier to influence the predominantly Muslim polity. This would have been more difficult to do had Pakistan retained a large non-Muslim minority.

As was vividly demonstrated by the unexpected success of the Congress in the 2004 elections, the Bharatiya Janata Party`s programme of Hindutva - was checkmated by the Muslim and Dalit minorities. Similar constraints would have been imposed on Pakistan`s political development. .....

Stuka and dost-mittar:

I read your posts and I pretty much subscribe to what Stuka said w.r.t. security and stability and what dost said w.r.t. Indians based tourism in Pakistan. I say this because I get to meet with lots of NWFP based tour operators and they are badly hit by events of Talibanization in Afghanistan, 9/11 and afterwards.

I wanted to seek your opinion so as to convey them to the Karta Dhertas of affairs in Pakistan and to advise my tour operator friends to sit tight for quite some time in the future, unfortunately.

Dost-mitter,

Sometimes in your responses (for eg: to urstruly) you speak the truth. Otherwise
you pretend a lot and obfuscate the truth by trying to create all kinds of equivalencies
between the Pakis and Indians etc.
That part of trying to be ``nice`` may be because of your lack of self confidence and
nehruvian education. You end being a dhimmi.

Being truthful and upfront is much more useful in the long run to build relationships.

Something that you should consider.

Regards,

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Dear roohi:

Welcome back!
Hum tau soch rahe thay key aap shayad naraaz ho kay chali gayeen. Hope the kids are grown up some and are spending some time at the nursery.

ahmadzai#61:
I agree in general with stuka`s observations wrt tourism. Kashmir is one of the most, if not the most attractive tourist destination in India. Yet, it was deserted by all tourists - domestic and foreign- as long it was not peaceful. Pakistan will need to be at peace with itself, if not with its neighbours, before it can attract any tourists. And even when this happens, tourist facilities in Pakistan are almost non-existent. Of course, it is also a chicken-and-egg problem.

But there is an exception. I think that tourists from Panjab will like to visit Pakistan if it was open to them. The potential from the rest of India is limited, except maybe some muslim indians from the north who, in most cases, will be staying with their relatives and contribute not a whole lot to tourism.

hamidm2#79
You and urstruly make strange bedfellows in insisting that there is no common ground between the hindus and muslims. Well, it all depends upon whether you think that religion is a permanent fault line for human relations. I do not happen to think so.
I may come across as a sentimental old fool sometimes but I do know the deep scars caused by the centuries of muslim domination and hindu humiliation and the more recent hindu economic domination during the British period. I have aslo lived through the holocaust of the partition. But I have noticed that the children of ex-pats hindus and muslims do not hate each other. Indeed, my guess would be that your children are more likely to have an hindu Indian friend than an african or arab muslim.
I have no desire for India and Pakistan to reunite. Whatever happened, happened and it`s time to move forward. But we cannot pass the legacy of hatred to our children, as it was passed down to us. I think that the current thaw has provided a window of opportunity for a historical reconciliation, but it is only a window, and will close anytime if sustained efforts are not made to keep it open even further. In the language of `lafangas`,
Raah mein un-ko lay aaye to hain baaton mein
Aur khul jaayen-ge do-chaar mulaqaaton mein!

nooralain #70
If you say so :). I thought that was a nicely-done website too.

yes still here - where am I going to go ... ? just have too much going on to get sucked into cyberspace like you timepass chokras (just kidding :) wish I had more time) good you had the akal to visit boston before the DNC madness descends on us ...

38
Just from memory, it`s swargaadapi varjate.
Dost-mittar, I thought it was going to be another hai mera lahore article, but thankfully not!

#82 by rsridhar

You should be listening to the lady here:
http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/june-2004/15/EDITOR/opinion.ASP

this question of commonality, shared culture etc will never be settled. It all depends on how you look at it.

By making a song and dance about such things - you are making pakis nervous. They don`t want no shared cultural sh!t. so why bother? As it is - the whole nation is freakin paranoid - on top of that folks like dost-mitter, the hindu goes around telling them how similar pakis are to hinuds. Naturally pakis see red - they see it as negation of dear old TNT - that hinuds are going take over land of pure.

So let it go. You are making it worse. Leave the pakis alone - may be a miracle will happen and pakis will decide to leave in peace. Chances are less - no matter how many lovy-dovy travelogues you write.

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Roohi:

Whassup!! Long time no see...still in Boston? I just got back from there, had an awesome trip.

Dear Dost-Mittar,

Thanks for this great travelogue series. It was wonderful to read it and share the experience of your travels. I think you are really very lucky to have in your wife a companion who shares your interests. That you are taking the time at this stage in your life to travel together and discover both your roots and reflect on your personal histories is really so sweet !! I learnt a lot from reading about your impressions of this trip. Hope this material gets published elsewhere as well so other people can read it too!

``Do keep in mind that I don`t have Vereesh`s skills of observing people for a few hours and imediately knowing everything about them.....:-). So some of my observations will be off-target....... ``

HAHAHA...TOUCHE!

Ahmadzai:

``do you think that Pakistani tourism stood a competitive chance in todays world, if promoted? I am referring to cultural, archaeological, historical and natural resources based tourism. ``

Not a chance. I work for Marriott at the hq here in DC. We have a Marriott in Karachi and Islamabad. We usually get stats for all properties on inbound travel and India gets a fraction of say Thailand which is so much smaller then India and Pakistan gets a fraction of India.

Besides, the hotel in Karachi has been a target multiple times for no other reason but the fact that the brand is American though it is owned by a Pakistani company and all the employees are Pakistani.

Tourism needs more then beautiful places. It needs an atmosphere of serenity and relaxation. It means evoking a spirit of friendliness and bonhomie. Think Dubai and you will know what I mean.

Ahmadzai:

``I am sure that if Pushtoons become net friendly and start interacting with Indians on the net, they will turn anti-Indians quickly. ``

HAHA...quite true.

#69 -- oh brother , here we go again --

veeresh ji: ``sirji, I do not claim to know everyhting about a people after meeting them for a few minutes or a day...`` -- oh but u do jee veeresh jee, u do

#70 -- nooralain -- finally we agree on something -- well this is a true story -- not what veeresh ji will tell you -- when i went to india in 2002, i had to go to the indian embassy -- since i was invited to a conference and i was a journalist they allowed me inside while the passport was being stamped -- the visa chief came and met me, a very polite and thoroughly decent gentleman who told me that he was from somewhere near gujranwala, as in his parents were -- generally people in any embassy`s visa section are the intelligence people, so that i had heard -- this guy was also expelled a few months later by pakistan along with 3 others on charges of espionage -- india had done the same too -- now checking some indian sites a couple of weeks ago, i read news stories in all mainstream indian papers that this same guy had died in a freak accident -- this happened as a lift in a govt of india building inexplicably collapsed all of a sudden -- as it turns out the lift was situated in the Research and Analysis Wing`s headquarters -- the indian papers identified the building as such -- and the guy was identified as a director in the agency, originally from the revenue side of the civil service but later co-opted into RAW for his competency -- go figure --

re:#35 by Dodo
You forgot to mention the rape and plunder of Ghaznis, Nadir Shah (who was a Persian i think), Timurlane. I am told that Timur the lame had improvised plunder into an artform. In order to terrorise the population of Delhi, he beheaded every citizen who resisted him (this i learnt from the History Channel in USA).
Well,
There area a lot of good things that happened by the interactions but do not forget that Ghazni, after he got tired of the loot and rape, carried away a lot of artisans from India to rebuild his city in Arabia.
Sridhar

re: This article
This and similar articles by some other chowkies compel one to pose the following questions:
1. Was it a good idea to partition India and uproot ancient cultures?
Here, one needs to differentiate culture from religion. Pak`s efforts to establish a religion based culture has failed. Pakis today are still Punjabees, Pakhtuns, Baluchs, Sindhis etc. There is nothing like an Islamist Paki. So, the question naturally arises: what was the point of partitioning a country only to uproot ancient cultures and displace people who. as per the travelouge of Dost Mitterji and others, had always lived in peace? This is a grim reminder that such things should never be repeated: not in Kashmir, not anywhere.

2. Should religion be a basis of national identity? Pak`s utter failure in establishing a religious identity for itself should be a warning to all. Only culture can be a basis of identity. Of course a lot of other things go into play here but cultural bonds are very strong. In the frenzy of religious hatred that followed partition, this bond was forgotten quickly as the 2 sides indulged in mayheim. This is a reminder that religion should be limited to personal use and when it spills into politics, it can be disastrous. BJP`s rise to power and Moditva are reminders that India has not seen the last of this madness.
Sridhar

..... to quote ahmedmadani, ``this is all lufangebaazi``....

....... if you go by what people are saying on the chowk, love is in the air and peace has broken out between the miserable people of india and pakistan ............everyone is gushing about how they were treated so nicely when they went back searching for their roots (whatever the heck it means) and exchanging little tit-bits about punjabi culture ( which is about as interesting as the phatiaan you see on the mud walls of punjabi villages).............. it is all nonsense - in other words, sheer lufangebaazi by sentimental old men about to get their skulls cracked in a big barbecue pit !......................

.............. i just got back from pakistan and didn`t see any signs of this sordid love affair ......... i am glad to report that most pakis, including my little ba-pass sister, still hate the horrible hindoos with a passion that is rivalled only by their hatred for heeng laced daal...................... even cricket crazed youngsters, as much as they him, would rather see tendulkar impaled on the stumps for being a kala kafir .................. however, there might be some reprieve for the poor hindoos from across the border ............ it seems a lot of pakis are finding new objects for their hatred - shias ............. of course, my mamoon still blames the afghans for everthing from stolen laundry to global warming ...........................

.............. i am glad dost-mittar ji had a pleasent trip and nobody tried to behead him on prime time tv, but let`s stop pretending that the pakis and hindoos are going to start behaving like civilized (white) people any time in the near future ..............

sadna#65:
If RAW had talented people of your calibre, it wont be in such a mess now.:)

dullabhatti#66:
I thought jats had succeeded in getting themselves classified as OBCs during the Devi Lal/Charan Singh era. I was surprised to learn that Rajputs have been classified as OBCs in Gujarat. It`s a circus out there. I wondered at one time if I could spell my middle name, Kumar as `Kumhar` and get classifed as SC!

nadeemkr#73
I will look forward to it.

Urstruly:
...and it`s okay not to comprehend sometimes :)

kaurasach:

Are there really panjabi hindus who look for their roots in ganga-jamuna? Although they do hold these rivers as sacred, I have met only one panjabi who traced his roots outside panjab, who is coincidentally a jat sikh. He is a powar who claims that his family came from Maharashtra several generations ago.

It is generally the other way round; namely, a large number of hindi-speakers settled in cities like Lukhnow, Kanpur, Allahbad, etc. for several generations claim to have their origins in Panjab. Most of the characters in Vikram Seth`s `A Suitable Boy` belong to this group.

But while they do not trace their roots in Ganga-Jamuna, they do take their ashes for immersion to Hardwar in Ganga. And this was true of Sikhs as well until 2-3 generations ago. The ashes of Maharaja Ranjit Singh and of all sikh gurus were most likely immersed in Ganga as well. Now, of course, the sikhs are enjoined to immerse their ashes into the nearest river.

And while there (Ganga) most people are also helped in tracing their roots, the genealogical trees. The pandas of Haridwar have kept meticulous records of people`s ancestors going back several generations.

satyamvada#62:
This is an irksome debate. What difference does it make whether Ranjit Singh gave gold umbrella or not? Why do hindus have this fixation of calling others hindus who do not wish to be considered as such? Regardless of their history, the fact remains that once a hindu became a sikh, he never called himself hindu again. And they certainly do not want to be called as such in this day and age. And hindus should respect that choice. It is as simple as that!

Dost Mitter

I have no clue as to what you were trying to say in the post addressed to me. But that`s alright. It is ok to be speechless sometimes.

nazarhayatkhan,

Few corrections:

``Some say that Karbala event was based on this rivalry - and the Persians chose to remain different with their own sect`` Persians lost to Arabs in the battle of Qadisiya in 637 AD. The Arabs had recently converted to Islam whereas Sassanians were Zoroastrians. After the victory, Arabs controlled the Persian Empire and imitated many customs of their monarchy and tactics of administration. Persians didn`t convert en-bloc to Islam; the conversion was slow and mainly happened in cities. The Zoroastrians continued to live in the Arab Muslim Empire as per Omar`s law of `Dhimma`.

Over a period of centuries, the conversion was complete and most of the Iranians had converted to Sunni Islam (Yes, Sunni Islam). Contrary to popular belief, Persians/Iranians didn`t play any role in Karbala which was an internecine feud of the fledgling Arab Muslim state.

As for Persians promoting Shia Islam to differentiate themselves from Arab Muslims, this is also baseless. Shia Islam remained an Arab sect and all their Imams were Arab (descendants of the Prophet`s family). During the Safavid dynasty of Iran, they forced/inspired (depending on what you like) the Iranians to convert to Shia Islam and declared it a state religion.

An interesting anecdote - Balochi tribes have a historical antagonism to Persians. These tribes were Shia when they initially converted to Islam. When Persians became Shia, they decided to become Sunni.

``Islam re-entered Pakistan, courtesy Saudi Arabia, in its radical form.`` Unfortunately, I don`t agree to this allegation. Indian Islam has a vibrant history. The Sufi traditions owe a lot to Indian sub-continent. But, the process of radical strain gaining strength was not an import, it was indigenous to India. Shah Waliullah and other were propagating Jihad in 18th century, around the same time when ibn-Wahhab gained prominence in Arabia. I agree that modern means of communication may have given a boost to interactions between radicals from different geographies, but radicalization began long back.

mubakr#43
If I remember correctly, my sister also said that the Kussak fort is visible from the train from Malikwal.

Mantolives#46

Strangely, even Iqbal`s tarana-e-hind has more emotional values for Indians than their national anthem. It is frequently suggested that jana-gana-mana was actually composed by Tagore to honour the British emperor on the occasion of his famour Dilli Durbar of 1911.

pmishra2:
I don`t know if one can blame islam for all of the problems. Female foeticide is more prevalent among the hindus/sikhs than among muslim panjabis. And it is perhaps as, if not more common, among the urban elite in Delhi than in the villages.

Dost-Mittar:

I have a write up on Kusak somewhere in my computer. Once I find it, I will ask for your e-mail to send it to you.

na.

Rahulmal # 42 & 44

Thanks for the information.

The Persians have a very rich history and culture as compared to the desert Arabs of Arabia - and they are justifiably proud of it. There has been an ancient rivalry between two. Some say that Karbala event was based on this rivalry - and the Persians chose to remain different with their own sect.

The British used the Saudi Beduine to break up the Ottomans. Next time the Americans used the Saudis (and Pakistanis) to drive Soviets out of Afghanistan. Islam re-entered Pakistan, courtesy Saudi Arabia, in its radical form. The earlier version through the saints was the softer & tolerant version.

In short, the 1980s Soviet Invasion brought the most uncouth part of the Arabs (desert beduines) into limelight, giving them influence & say - thanks also to oil - in the last century.

We are all still suffering the consequences.

hey guys, who pays more? ISI or RAW? I am thinking about being a double agent..get the good pay that RAW pays and enjoy the perks of ISI.

Once a Khalistani leader was asked, Khalistan will be land locked country, no ports no sea...how are you going to trade? How is economy going to survive. He quickly answered...that part is already figured out don`t worry about it...We have lot of plains, greenery and water...we will grow Cows and Pigs on the farms....Halaal the cows and ship them Westwards...Jhatka the pigs and ship them Eastwards.....keep the chicken and fine goat for ourselves...baaki allah allah khairsullah.

sadna. . .

sachchi se. . if i may say so with the utmost respect. . .you are one of the finest anti-pakistan RAW agents around chowk.

; )

(and please DO take note of the wink)

Romair/66 . . . sirji, I do not claim to know everyhting about a people after meeting them for a few minutes or a day or more or a lifetime, I can not even claim to know my own wife and/or children, do you understand or know everything about yours?

But . . . I went to Pakistan and I did not write one of those typical ``we went to India/Pakistan and were given great protocol and had a lot of booze and sang/danced and then made love to a blue poodle and so Pakistan/India are great places . . .`` kind of Khan Market/Blue Area articles.

I observed some other stuff and I wrote it down as I saw it, as one who hailed from that part of the world, so there are things I learnt/heard on the knees of my forefathers.

+++

On India origin Punjabi Sikh and Punjabi Hindu/Muslim/Christian differentiations in India/elsewhere, a bit difficult, no doubt.

If you wear a designer dhoti/chadra, then please do remember to wear bermuda shorts below them. Advice from one who has seen these things unravel. Actually, ``Pathan Suits`` appear to do better. There are also the affected high on embroidery/zaree work ``Bund galas``. Just curious - how many men wore ``Western suits``?

If you really want to go A-Class on dhotis, then head for a South Indian temple, and check out the stuff there. Ask for the Andhra stuff. White is not white . . . and done best bare-chested.

+++

And once again, Romair, your account proves that it is the Punjabis who got so neatly shafted in the name of religion, while everybody else seems to carry on regardless.

I am really really glad to hear that you were The VIP at the function. As an Indian who has been received the same way by Pakistanis, I know what you mean.

Kaurasach:

If you want to talk about opinions then of course you can say anything you want.

Tamilians and Kannadigas hold the Kaveri dear. The Andhraites rever the river
Krishna and so forth. Similiarly the Punjabis are fond of the Chenab...nothing
special there.

I am not sure if you have heard of this shloka:
Gangecha Yamunechaiva Godavari Saraswati
Narmada, Sindhu, Kaveri jalesmin sannidhim kuru

All these rivers are invoked in the water that is used in the Kalash before doing
a puja.

About Roots:
It seems that the only people looking for roots in India are those displaced during the
partition. Havent read/heard/known about anyone else looking for roots.

Ally yaar, most of the Gujjars in East Punjab are landless and hence classified as backward class by the govt under some law under which they get some reservations in employment and some other govt benefits. 1/3 of East Punjab is in Backward class...other 1/3 is Scheduled Caste which is lower than the Backward class....rest of them are Baahmans and Jatts...go figure that out...there were demands by some jatt groups few years back to be included in backward classes list also....the whole idea of this class system is another Caste system...if you are Brahmin, even if your father sells `sakanjwiN`` in the chowk, you are higher caste...but if your father was a chamaar and an IAS officer and you are MD, your children are still scheduled castes.

This reservation system is producing such nakhidd doctors that it is very common now to do some research and find out if the doctor you are going for your ilaz does not belong to reservation class.

Dost-mittar/dullabhatti/Vereersh #various: Thanks for the info. Do keep in mind that I don`t have Vereesh`s skills of observing people for a few hours and imediately knowing everything about them.....:-). So some of my observations will be off-target.......

- I am not sure if it was a dhoti or a chaadra. I suppose the later, though I don`t really know what that is. But it did look different from a traditional dhoti. But whatever it was, it looked good. Kind of like Pierre Cardin meets the pind. Only a minority of the guests were wearing them. Most were in the tradition kurta pajama/shalwar, as in Pakistan. I was seriously thinking of buying a few to wear at Pakistani functions. A black and gold silk designer dhoti would be a hit in Pakistan. It is sad to hear that they are actually not in fashion in India, either......

- The reason I keep mentioning Sikhs, vis-a-vis Punjab, is that I am still a bit confused about how to pick out the non-Sikh Indian Punjabis. With Sikhs from any area, it seems to be nearly 100% gaurantee that they speak Punjabi. But with non-Sikhs, it can be a bit difficult to figure out, who is who. Met people from Delhi, and they speak Urdu/Hindi, and no Punjabi. Others from the same place, speak fluent Punjabi, etc. You discuss Daler Mehndi with one, and he starts talking about Ghalib. You mention Ghalib to the other, and he starts singing Sukhbir`s songs. So quite difficult to pick out the Punjabi speaking non-Sikhs from a crowd. But easy to pick out the Sikhs...

- Pakistani Punjabi music is definitely more folk, with less bhangra. Indian Punjabi music, now, seems to be along the lines of RDB (Rythm, Dhol and Base, for those who are out of touch). A lot of English verses mixed in.....and more difficult hardcore Punjabi....a lot of which I couldn`t understand.....The over-40 Indians seem to be missing the old folk stuff. The under-40 seemed to enjoy the new techo-Punjabi bhangra music......

- Drinks were another difference, of course. Flowing freely, like in any North American function.....

Other than that, not much difference. Surprisingly similar ceremonies, songs and dances. In fact, nearly identical. Including stories of arranged marraiges, told to me, from those who were already married, and how couples were introduced to each other, etc......Also, everyone was giglging at the gora guests as they clapped along merrily on Kala Shah Kaala, much like they giggle at Pakistani functions....

The most similar group of Pakistani and Indians are Punjabi Indian and Pakistani women. Very difficult to tell apart....

P.S. I think we were the only Pakistanis at the party, so we received quite the VIP treatment, and were the center of attraction. Specially after we started singing all the Punjabi songs.

Everything was quite impressive. Except for the bh