Church vs Mosque

rozaiba #19 - you wrote ``The last time I took a non-Muslim person to a mosque in Indiana, I had been scolded (in front of the guest). It was rather embarrassing. I was later given a list of reasons the best of which was that the non-Muslims don`t shave their pubic hair.``

very interesting. it so happens that i have taken my non-muslim friends (black, white, orientals etc) to mosques on more occassions than i can count. Sometimes I took them because they were curious, sometimes because we were on our way back from a game etc and i just decided to make a stop at mosque and pulled them in. During the regular iftaars in Ramadan, I always make it a point, at least on the weekends to take non-muslim friends with me for the feast.

But I must say, never, NOT ONCE, did anyone ever raise an eyebrow. So I am rather surprised at your experience. More so because of the stupid reason that person gave (of pubic hair length).

But let me ask you this: do you remember the times when you or your friends were unfairly scolded by your manager at work? How about being unfairly scolded by your teacher in school? I can recall several such incidents. But did that make us quit our jobs or schools? Apparently not. If you have spent a considerable time in US, you may also have experienced some incident of racism. Did that make you quit US? Probably not. So then why is it that ONE scold, as unfair as it was, made you quit taking your friends to mosque! If you knew you were right, and that stupid man who scolded you was wrong, wouldn`t a noble thing have been to make a stand, yell at him, or gently teach him the right thing? Not all of us, as you know, are experts in everything.

Why do we become so sensitive in some matters and so forgiving in others?

Hello A Shiraz, are you, also, a great fan of Buster Keaton?

This article has to be, either, very very funny OR there is something really strange going on somewhere in the World.

Music A Pre Occupation Of The Civilized.

``My work place doesnt have music, should I consider moving to a more ``civilized`` place? `` #8 by fahadist on September 7, 2004 11:11am PT

Music is a hallmark of civilizations. Offices are not against Music because even elevators may have music, your individual desktops may have I-Pods and Mp3s, your phone operator may have ``hold music``. Much like Islam, is your office against music?

If so, you may want to share the name and location of the office and we will refer the business for investigation to the proper authorities. Why? Because any business that is against music sounds like a business that may be run by extremists. However I doubt your office is against music and I doubt Bin Ladin has cover up businesses still running in our neck of the woods. I do think that your office abstains from piping music through the speakers because they want to give people the option of choosing their own music (I Pod) or perhaps they don`t wish to inflict the entire staff with their taste in music.

Over all in the workplace it is inappropriate to sing/chant/carol anything out loud lest you disturb others at work. There is ofcourse a time and place for everything and amongst the points raised by the article is to ponder : is music appropriate to a place of worship? and it does not deal with workplaces, neither does it deal with music in bathrooms nor in shopping malls nor in your kitchens.

Since the article deals with (amongst many things) music in a place of worship you may wonder : In a mosque or a place of worship when you address God you may address Him

A) with song and music congregationally

OR

B) you may address God in ``recitation`` by one man in a language you do not understand (ancient mideval Arabic which even the Arabs claim to be unable to understand).

You may

A) choose to embrace musical forms (classical and modern) in uplifting the souls of the worshippers

OR

B) choose to call music Haram and capable of ``Excitation``, musical instruments satanic and only permit drums to ``arouse warriors``, secular poetry as ``pus of the mind`` and force everyone to camouflage their ``qawwali`` with double entendres so as to avoid committing ``shirk`` .

Which one would you prefer?
Which one sounds more civilized?
Which is more euphonic?
Which is gentler and kinder to the soul ?

``I`d begun going to a range of churches in the South - and ended up preferring the African-American ones to the `White` Churches. You went to the latter one - but let me tell you, there is nothing - nothing at all like the experience of an African American church.
``#19 by rozaiba on September 7, 2004 5:56pm PT

Dear Rozaiba,

Its good to run into someone who is open minded and so innocent. Congratulations! It takes courage and or ignorant to bring not just a Non Muslim to a mosque but to top it offa Black person to a Mosque.

I have been to a black church and was involved with them for a while. I discovered however that Black Christians are too obsessed with their ``race`` to the point that they start ridiculing and deriding other Churches that do not resemble theirs.

That I learned is rather odd behavior for someone who claims to be a Christian and speaks of love and forgiveness. Is it any wonder that such self imposed segregation is leading to some of their members going to jails and then converting to a hatefilled religion like Islam?

It is good to be objective and to make friends across a spectrum of society. Have friends of every stripe and every religion and ensure your happiness. Treat them equally well and do not discriminate based on race or skin color.

I left the Black Church to explore Churches that were Hispanic or Latino and then to a German Church until I read Weber`s study and essay on the foundations of Capitalism and the Protestant Ethic. This essay may be homework for those who are interested.

Incidentally these crude people who differentiate between people based upon the size of their pubic hair are an affront to decent, civilized followers of God (no matter what religion). It brings me closest to contempt when I read their uncouth remarks and broken english and impotent threats. But then I pray that disdain and contempt be purged from my heart. I sincerely do not wish to be around such people who eat with their hands while squatting on floors (despite having a table and a chair present) in the name of some Beduoin who lived in the 6th century.

I have seen with my own eyes palatial houses in the middle east built with oil money and furnished with the best carpets only for the Beduoins to bring in cartloads of sand and pile it on the Persian carpet.

Have you ever seen these people lie on the sand dune in the middle of a drawing room filled with expensive but tasteless furniture and artwork? they will have neoclassical with modern sitting on one table amongst other nouva-riche antics.

Have you seen these people push their hands into one single plate and then stuff their mouths with it and then say licking their palms ``Brother the Prophet very wise he say eat with hands because when you have hot food in your hand your pores open up and fluid come out of pores of fingers to make your food good for digestion``! At moments like these I thank goodness that I am a Pakistani and I was once colonized by the British.

I used to tell Americans to eat with their hands giving them this ``medical`` fact of ``perspiring pores in palms emitting digestive fluids`` until my own fellow Muslims stopped me with ``Shiraz what is wrong with you? Why are you saying this to them?``

It didn`t occur to me that what I was taught and raised with is rather absurd and rather disgusting. It was not until I started trying to understand the other side and thank goodness I did and that is the point of this article : see what else is out there.

``I`d begun going to a range of churches in the South - and ended up preferring the African-American ones to the `White` Churches. You went to the latter one - but let me tell you, there is nothing - nothing at all like the experience of an African American church.
``#19 by rozaiba on September 7, 2004 5:56pm PT

Dear Rozaiba,

Its good to run into someone who is open minded and so innocent. Congratulations! It takes courage and or ignorant to bring not just a Non Muslim to a mosque but to top it offa Black person to a Mosque.

I have been to a black church and was involved with them for a while. I discovered however that Black Christians are too obsessed with their ``race`` to the point that they start ridiculing and deriding other Churches that do not resemble theirs.

That I learned is rather odd behavior for someone who claims to be a Christian and speaks of love and forgiveness. Is it any wonder that such self imposed segregation is leading to some of their members going to jails and then converting to a hatefilled religion like Islam?

It is good to be objective and to make friends across a spectrum of society. Have friends of every stripe and every religion and ensure your happiness. Treat them equally well and do not discriminate based on race or skin color.

I left the Black Church to explore Churches that were Hispanic or Latino and then to a German Church until I read Weber`s study and essay on the foundations of Capitalism and the Protestant Ethic. This essay may be homework for those who are interested.

Incidentally these crude people who differentiate between people based upon the size of their pubic hair are an affront to decent, civilized followers of God (no matter what religion). It brings me closest to contempt when I read their uncouth remarks and broken english and impotent threats. But then I pray that disdain and contempt be purged from my heart. I sincerely do not wish to be around such people who eat with their hands while squatting on floors (despite having a table and a chair present) in the name of some Beduoin who lived in the 6th century.

I have seen with my own eyes palatial houses in the middle east built with oil money and furnished with the best carpets only for the Beduoins to bring in cartloads of sand and pile it on the Persian carpet.

Have you ever seen these people lie on the sand dune in the middle of a drawing room filled with expensive but tasteless furniture and artwork? they will have neoclassical with modern sitting on one table amongst other nouva-riche antics.

Have you seen these people push their hands into one single plate and then stuff their mouths with it and then say licking their palms ``Brother the Prophet very wise he say eat with hands because when you have hot food in your hand your pores open up and fluid come out of pores of fingers to make your food good for digestion``! At moments like these I thank goodness that I am a Pakistani and I was once colonized by the British.

I used to tell Americans to eat with their hands giving them this ``medical`` fact of ``perspiring pores in palms emitting digestive fluids`` until my own fellow Muslims stopped me with ``Shiraz what is wrong with you? Why are you saying this to them?``

It didn`t occur to me that what I was taught and raised with is rather absurd and rather disgusting. It was not until I started trying to understand the other side and thank goodness I did and that is the point of this article : see what else is out there.

re: A. Shiraz/Solitude

Can`t tell if your piece is a ``tongue-in-cheek`` commentary - but there are a number of contemporary architects who are designing mosques where women have prayer areas of comparable size and stature (not relegated to the basement). Gulzar Haider, an old professor of mine not only designed mosques such as these but is proposing one in Florida where men and women will stand shoulder-to-shoulder. You really must look beyond the ``mullah`` and you will find people challenging Islamic fundamentals which you might have absorbed as truths growing up. It is up to you to challenge these interpretations that the ``mullah`` has tried to pass as ``the truth``. There is really no value in a ``daisy-cutter`` critique when you don`t know the leg you stand on - you are really no better than the ``mullah`` at that point. There is a history of art, music, and architecture in Islam - visit Rumi`s tomb in Konya or buy a Nusrat CD at the nearest music store. Calligraphy, miniatures, ceramics, jewelry - there is a very sophisticated history of art in the Islamic world. Your social experiment should also include a few mosques by the architect Sinan; or visit the Great Mosque of Niono in Mali; or Hasan Fathy`s Mosque of Gurna in Egypt. If these do not move you in any way, do yourself a favour and bypass all churches/temples/mandirs and go directly to the closest Barnes and Noble/Chapters and pick up a copy of Friedich Nietzsche

HisFradulence #10

brays:

[quote]
And by the way, American Churches are nothing in comparison with the quality and staff of Saudi Arabian mosques
[end-quote]

Indeed. Please tell us more about the ``quality and staff of Saudi Arabian mosques``.

Which aspect of the staff is the most impressive - The part where the faithful are instructed to murder the kafirs? Or the part where explanations are given as to the best way to ritually beat your wife? Or the part where young men are recruited for martyrdom operations (and instructed in the pleasures of the 72 virgins)?

Please do enlighten us some more about these high-quality institutions. Maybe there are some more nuggets of wisdom that I missed.

Good to hear of your experience Shiraz!

Enjoyed it.

I`d begun going to a range of churches in the South - and ended up preferring the African-American ones to the `White` Churches. You went to the latter one - but let me tell you, there is nothing - nothing at all like the experience of an African American church.

Once after coming out of a Black church, my friend asked me, `How come you don`t take me to the mosque??`

My first reaction was of fright. The last time I took a non-Muslim person to a mosque in Indiana, I had been scolded (in front of the guest). It was rather embarrassing. I was later given a list of reasons the best of which was that the non-Muslims don`t shave their pubic hair.

Thus this time, I was frantically searching for excuses. I didn`t want to tell him that Muslims may kick him out of the mosque. So I told him `Man, a mosque is as boring as a White Church!` We both laughed and I sighed with relief!

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kaurasach:
``You addressed me as Kaura (was it becuase you shortened my name?)``
yes! (par bota gur pao tay oh vee kaura ho jaanda ve:))
Re. Quraan, I will leave it to some more knowledgeable person to throw light on the topic. All I know is that Islam discourages music instruments but does allow singing in praise of Allah.

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Shiraz, seems like Church’s are potentially good pickup points. Thanks for informing us!! Just one thing, could you please let us know where your mom goes?? Doesn’t sound good if someone of us try to pick her up…

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It is NOT about Money, It`s About Values.

``American Churches are nothing in comparison with the quality and staff of Saudi Arabian mosques. A wealthy country can indeed afford to spend more on its places of worship than a poorer one. `` #10 by HisExcellency on September 7, 2004 1:31pm PT

The point is not how much money you can spend on a house of worship. What matters is how clean it is. You can spend millions and then the people who visit it can stink of urine , what will you do about that? Force all of them to take a shower on a day that is not friday ? Or perhaps you may want to force all to wear some under arm deodrant ?

You can spend all your oil money and adorn all your environs but then right after prayers your fellow worshipper takes out a stick and starts brushing his teeth with a stick. A part of the stick falls into his copious beard covered in saliva, what will you do about that ? You may say that ``Our people are illiterate we have to educate them`` but we see western-educated doctors and engineers becoming fanatical and behaving like this. And why do western-educated people behave like an Arab Bedouin from the 6th century? Because they want to ``imitate the Prophet``!

You can install the deepest and most frangrant of carpets but you will not have the sense to put chairs because our religion Islam involves squatting on the floor like an animal.

You may buy Benz and BMWs and you may have lots of money and a western education but if someone brainwashes you into a devout version of Islam you will find yourself sniffing and drinking camel urine as a ``cure`` for the common cold. Why because the Prophet himself prescribed it!

One doesn`t have to be a devout Arab Muslim or a Pathan to believe in this nonsense. All you need is enough ``Faith`` as the Mullah would say, or all you need is enough Islamic brainwashing as I would say. I have seen with my own eyes people who were modern and moderate and westernized who married their daughters off at at the age of 6 and 9 because their religion states that it is ok for girls so young to be married at that age (the clerics in Iran recently raised the age of consent for a girl to 7 to prevent child abuse and molestation).

Education and money will not solve your problems. Our religion is the culprit. Don`t you see that following this religion debases you and our own people. Don`t you see that Islam turns us into sub human animals?

You can decorate your mosques with gold and ornament and you will not find peace nor respect because our religion Islam turns your people into demons that inhabit the worst recesses of the world : demons that breathe hate and anger and vengeance and harbor thoughts of evil, demons who will betray their own ``god`` when it is convenient for them to do so.

You may become westernized and allow women into the mosque but what will you do about your women cowering and squatting in the back of the mosques?

Things are NOT hopeless, there are better alternatives to Islam out there but it is you who have to have the courage to go and find it. Be brave and venture forth into the unknown, the only thing you have to lose is the darkness you are emerging from. Look for values, not wealth for all that glitters is not gold.

If your heart is pure it will seek values of love and forgiveness and cleanliness and punctuality (when did your religion talk about punctuality?) or values of saving money and being inventive and values of embracing the world without using religion or piety as an excuse or garb to do evil (has your religion ever discouraged you from becoming too PIOUS or too literal in your interpretation of the texts? has it perhaps encouraged you to look at other religions and to become part of the marketplace of ideas? or has it tried to persecute, bomb, massacre members of other religions as is the case in Islamic countries?)

Those who persecute other religions are preventing you from finding better religions. They are bombing churches and killing Christians and persecuting them because they don`t want you to find out about better things. Can`t you see that?

kaura#11
Last Sunday, I met an Afghan guy who is an expert in Indian classical music. He told me that the all verses in the Quran are also set to `raagas`, called Muqaams in Arabic. Apparently, there are twelve muqaams which are analogous to our raagas.

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