Church vs Mosque

Rozaiba # 88

As for your first question “Are there any practical examples you know of based on ijtihad (or fatwas)?” –

As a matter of fact there are millions of examples spread across Muslim world where Ijtehad done by present day ullema have influenced Muslims of today. The most prominent examples are those of Moulana Moududi, Hasanal Banna, and Syed Qutub, whose ijtehad on socio-political issues of today have influenced the Muslims all across the globe. Even those sects and Muslims who do not subscribe to their political philosophy have received guidance from their thinking. Moududi, for example was a very prolific writer. His ijtehad were published regularly (biweekly) in all too famous journal risail-o-misail for decades. Another most famous name is Moulana Shoukat Thanvi whose Behishti Zewar discusses various contemporary issues related to women. Moulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi was also a prolific writer who has written his ijtehad issues in various volumes:

Check this:

http://alashrafia.com/english.html

And also we have Moulana Amjad Ali Quadri who have compiled various ijtehad in his book Bahar-e-Shariat

http://www.dawateislami.net/services/library/books/Bahar/Main%20Files/index.htm

In Pakistan, formally, Islamic Ideological Council, according to the constitution of 1973 is responsible to do ijtehad. But the abysmal condition of legislation in the country for the past 25 years have rendered it ineffective even though their ijtehad on the Zakat and Usher is already bearing results despite of corruption and mismanagement of funds.

Historically, Aurangzeb Alamgir (may God bless his soul) organized the Ijtehad in one of the most famous book in history – Fatawa-e-Alamgiri. These fatawa have served Muslims for centuries and even today Muslim scholars seek guidance from this work. Mind you, Alamgir existed 600 years after Baghdad collapsed at the hands of Mongols. Prior to Alamgir, the works of Mujadid Alif Saani, Shah Abdul Aziz Muhadis Dehlvi and many after them have guided Muslims through out the centuries. The contention that Ijtehad stopped after Mongol invasion is a myth and a vicious lie perpetrated by enemies of Islam.

Your second question is about: “can we say that because of no recognized institutional mechanism - ie clerical class- it was easier for colonial powers to enslave the people?”

There is no mathematical answer to this question. A case can be made in either way. Since in sunni Muslim world (since question is directed this way) there have never been an instance where clergy had political clout, therefore, the only benchmark that we have is to compare it with organized clergy in Catholicism and that in Iran where clergy holds a constitutional position in polity based on their dogma of vilayat-e-faqih. The clergy in Catholicism failed miserably and we know the history very well. WE have yet to see what happens in Iran. In Irraq where Shia clergy is well organized could not save its people from the tyranny of Saddam Hussain but this same clergy has proved to be a formidable enemy to the scourge of American imperialism. But then so is the sunni clergy which is not organized and yet the resistannce in sunni areas started from the mosques. The resistance in these areas is even more lethal than in shia areas.

Personally, I am against any special treatment of any group in constitution; and that includes even the women. Holy Prophet (pbuh) has guided us that the only differentiation between human beings in the polity is on the basis of belief. The Constitution of Medina tells us that there can be believers and non-believers in a polity. Together they form the ummah i.e. the nation. And this nation runs its affairs on the basis of consultation (Shoora) and consensus (Ijma’a). Therefore, in my books clergy has no place in the business of polity.

re: 103
``Is there a need for more mosques to calm the muslims down and regain the essense of their faith? Certainly!``

you must be kidding - if anything, we need fewer mosques, churches and misc. other places which breed nonsense. to paraphrase genghis khan in contemporary terms - what in the hell is wrong with you people - if you really need to talk to the man above - why do it in a specific place - dont you know that this fellow is supposed to be present everywhere at any given time.

re: mqm guy on mutah
prostitution by any other name still remains prostitution - maybe i am missing something or maybe you dont know what you are talking about.

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Solitude:

Without any doubt there is certainly more respect given to the prayer-service and the ambience in a church than in a mosque. This is a very personal observation based on the mosques I have visited in the US. But you need to be reasonable here. There are far more social centers for the christians and the jews than for the muslims in America. For the muslims, mosques are their place of worship and also a place for social activities. Lunch/Dinner is served in the same halls where everyone offers prayers. To top it all, if the management happens to be either indians/pakistanis or bangladeshis they are less concerned about the basic cleanliness and overall ambience of the mosque. You will smell curry and turmeric everywhere. In my experience, any mosque managed and maintained by the middle-easterners, definitely offers a better environment, lectures and educational activities. In those environments, I have also seen worshippers meditating and focusing on strengtening their connection with God. Ironically, there is a lot of emphasis on ``taharat-cleanliness`` in Islam. Many darood-shareef(s) and other prayers require cleanliness of a person and that of the place.

I also agree with you that it is extremely unpleasant to hear the speech of an already agonized preacher or a muezzin. Most of them incite the worshippers than calm them down. Islam does not ask ugly, unhygienic and imbecile men to be at the preacher`s desk. Unfortunately, if you pick any of the recent newspapers, the stories about the imams` of many masjids in the US and the UK make you wonder what the hell is going on. Those imams look like criminals and men out of caves. How the hell can they preach any sane message to their audience?

Someone posted a number of pictures of various mosques. Defintely there are some very pretty mosques on the planet earth. Unfortunately, when it comes to day to day prayers, there are not that many of them with a fine architecture or a decent ambience. Is there a need for more mosques to calm the muslims down and regain the essense of their faith?

Certainly!

Also, only learned men and women should be allowed to lead the prayers. The ones who look like a daku or a cave-man ought to be discouraged. Those imams and preachers are a definite risk to Islam.

Arthur

You are exhibiting a very narrow minded and bigoted behavior from what i read in your article and subsequent postings. Very disappointing. You have so much hate in you towards Islam and anything related to Islam and as such you are exhibitng the same kind of bigotry as Mullah Omar.

You articles and postings are written in bad taste and does not present you as a balanced mature person.

Moreover the way you talk about your looks and apperance sounded very shallow and exhibited some sort of inferiority complex.

Chowk staff
The article belonged to the i-log of the author and not to the fornt page of Chowk. I am surprised how such poorly written articles are making it to the front page.

Very well analysed Muslim prayer.

MQMPower

You have defended and given enough explanations on Mutah in a very dignified manner. However, I don’t think it was necessary. If I were in your place I would have just given the links and other sources for the inquirer to do his own research and not to engage into subsequent discussion where the other gets the chance to criticize, ridicule and question and you on the other hand becomes very defensive. There is no need for it.

Moreover, I do not think that you have enough knowledge to go into the finer details of this subject.

I also have limited knowledge on Mutah. But Mutah makes logical sense to me especially during present times (when the average age of marriage has gone upto 28-30) as it provides the avenue for the youth (especially boys) to engage into sex during their prime years of 17-24/25 without any guilt and remorse. Its healthy and its basic instinct and hence should not be denied. Otherwise it would be inhumane and lead to frustration in the society.

mosques are like caves, they breed terrorists .........

...... that`s what is wrong with mosques .... as houses of worship, or ignorance, they are probably no better or worse than synagogues and churches, other than the fact that most poeple would agree that it is about time that the muslims discovered furniture ............. it is silly and quite painful to be twisting your legs into unnatural knots and flailing on the ground ...... we should leave that to the horrible hindoo yogis and sadhus - let them put dust and ash in their hair and try to levitate in the lotus position !

............. but historically mosques are not simply places of worship, they are dens of conspiracy ......... the plot to destroy all other gods and their houses of worship was hatched in a cave in mecca and moved to a mosque in medina .......... from there the faithful set out to destroy synagogues and churches and temples - places held sacred by people of other faiths ............ the rampage culminated in the destruction of the grand temple of mecca ........other peoples` gods were thrown out into the street and yet another mosque was constructed to appease al-lah ...........they did not even spare his daughters, manat and uzza - such was their maniacal rage .......... takbeer!

......... but all that is ancient history and one can say that the churches and cathedrals in medieval spain were also houses of horrors presided over by ghoulish priests and monks .......... but there is a difference ........ those churches are now simply places of ignorance where fools congregate on sundays to worship at the feet of a man nailed to a cross, and tourists run around during the week taking pictures while pigeons fly around trying to poop on them ............ but not the mosques - they are reverting back to the original model established in medina ............and that, my friends, is the problem .............

Elusive # 96 - Very beautiful, eloquent, intelligent and informative post. It clearly, and very intelligently demonstrated that a person can get his/her point across more effectively through humility, kindness, and without offending anyone. Indeed, such compassionate reasoning is more likely to spark reformation of a person than blatant attacks. Perhaps the best interact on this board. Good job.

Beautiful Mosques:

The Al-Azhar Mosque in Cairo



Al-Azhar Mosque’s Praying carpet




Al-Azhar Mosques’ Domes




Faisal Mosque in Islamabad, Pakistan




The Mosque of Omar Bin Khattab in Los Angeles, U.S.A




Mosque in Washington City




Mosque in Turkey



Mosque Salimiye in Turkey



Mosque at Istanbul, Turkey



Great Mosque of Djenne




Sulaimen Mosque Turkey




Shah-Alam Mosque, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia,




Underground Mosque at shahrah-e-Faisal, Karachi…
( better view from land, but this was the only pic I found)

What has happened to chowk? Where are the good writers?

I wonder if he tries to taste this? As quran says.


[76:6] But the virtuous shall drink of a cup, tempered with camphor -

[76:7] From a spring wherefrom the servants of Allah will drink - they make it gush forth - a forceful gushing forth.

I wonder, what is that pond of water, which increases in size as people drink from it ?

A.Shiraz,

With utmost respect, as long as you wrote about your experience in this short story, all is well. However, as soon as you begin preaching in your interacts, what most of us shun, matters go out of hand. I wonder if it ever occurred to you that most of us, Muslims, may have had different experiences than you. Did it occur to you, that some of us may have visited churches and temples, but still would hold, our beloved mosques, as the only place we prefer for prayer, and soul searching and submission to Allah? Did it occur to you, some of us may have not been molested or subjected to inferior treatment in mosques, but on the contrary, our experiences have been generally very good? Did, you even try to think from our point of view? You assert and re-assert your one sided view again and again and again, with not even a slight acknowledgement to another’s point of view. It seems from your interacts that you just do not want to look beyond, exactly the same way, you believe that some of Us, Muslims don’t want to look beyond.

You wrote:

“The point is not how much money you can spend on a house of worship. What matters is how clean it is. You can spend millions and then the people who visit it can stink of urine , what will you do about that? Force all of them to take a shower on a day that is not Friday ? Or perhaps you may want to force all to wear some under arm deodorant ? “

It seems to me that you have unfortunately been most unfortunate in your experiences in a mosque and I deeply sympathize with you. But, what bewilders me is the attitude that you are exhibiting. Keeping, Pakistan in view, a country marked by poverty, let us assume that a group of people have built a small mosque. When they hear the sound for prayer, they may be, picking up bricks, building a house, digging a well, they could be doing some plumbing , they could be on the roads searching for a job in the sweltering heat, they could be mechanics repairing cars etc. In essence, all the relatively poor people, sweating but trying to earn a living. Let us assume that during their work, they hear the call for prayer. What do you suggest they do? With no public baths in sight in Pakistan, should they go, miles way to their home to take a bath first? What if no bathing facilities are available in the mosque and all they can do, is perform their required and refreshing wudu? What do you suggest then? Of course, they should use deodorants then? Most of them, don’t even have money to eat a proper meal, but they should definitely, save money to buy a deodorant. How practical can you be?

Al-HamdulliAllah, being a female in Karachi, most of the mosques I have gone too are Clean and DO NOT stink. For instance, the Abu Bakr Mosque in Defence has a separate section for females. Similarly, during Ramadhan, the females in my house go to a nearby Montessori cum mosque for children, with a lush carpet, which does not stink. After, our Taraveeh prayers, we drink coffee and eat cookies with other respected ladies, whilst hearing a small 15 minute dars by a most elegant lady. Until now, (and it has been three years) I have never heard her incite us against non Muslims or to kill them. We are told about family values, kind treatment to servants and poor and relatives, respect for elders and parents, etc. it may seem surprising to you, but the females actively contribute money for government hospitals, orphans and most importantly, to help free the unfairly imprisoned females in Karachi Jail. Trust me, A.Shiraz,I have obtained the sense of well being and deep faith and satisfaction and happiness and i too have skipped home , coming out from my Taraveeh prayers in Karachi and after praying in Haram and Masjid-e-Nabvi and I do not have to search for it elsewhere. I have seen immense help and sharing amongst males and females in mosques. I have seen Indonesian Muslims helping a Pakistani women find her spouse in Haram. I have shared water with Lebanese females in Masjid-e-Nabvi. I have been firmly held by total strangers to not let me fall amongst the throngs of crowds in the Roza’a’Mubarak in Masjid-e-Nabvi. I have seen many females developing strong friendships with other females during taraveeh prayers in the mosques of Karachi.

Happiness and satisfaction can be found anywhere; the only requirement is sincerity and deep faith. Being a Muslim, Al-HamduliAllah, I have been able to find that within a mosque. It is most unfortunate that you have had a different negative experience, but you should not hold your experience as a hard and fast one for other Muslims as well.

You also pointed out the following;

“They provide seating (you don`t have to stand up or squat down until your feet and your back hurt or you ankles are twisted out of shape; in other words you are not suffering physically when you are worshipping your god).”

At first I thought that you ONLY had a problem with mosques. However, it is now clear, that you are also against the very prayer itself. Let me guide you towards the health benefits of offering the Muslim prayer:

{ ps. if kneeling is a problem, get a chair... }

Muslim Prayer and Yoga

**The Muslim prayer has five positions, and they all (as well as the recitations we make while performing the prayer) have a corresponding relationship with our spiritual and mental well being, according to modern scientific research. The benefits of performing specific movements and recitations each day come from the correct rendition of the position or action itself, the length of time the position is held, and from careful and correct recitation techniques.**

**Each of the five prayer positions has a corresponding yoga position, and the positions together “activate” all seven “chakras” (energy fields) in the body. The idea of activating a chakra may sound linguistically strange, but it is easier to understand once one translates that word into more familiar language.**

**The Takbir and Al Qiyyam together are very similar to the Mountain Pose in yoga, which has been found to improve posture, balance, and self-awareness. This position also normalizes blood pressure and breathing, thus providing many benefits to asthma and heart patients. **

**The placement of the hands on the chest during the Qiyyam position are said to activate the solar plexus “chakra,” or nerve pathway, which directs our awareness of self in the world and controls the health of the muscular system, skin, intestines, liver, pancreas, gallbladder and eyes. When the hands are held open for du’a, they activate the heart “chakra,” said to be the center of the feelings of love, harmony, and peace, and to control love and compassion. It also governs the health of the heart, lungs, thymus, immune system, and circulatory system. **

**Muslim researchers have shown that when Muslims recite the Qur’an, old thoughts, feelings, fears and guilt are released or healed, and blood pressure and stress levels are reduced. Virtually all of the sounds of the Arabic language are uttered while reciting Qur’an, creating a balance in all affected areas of the body. **

**Some specific sounds, in fact, correspond to major organs in the body. In his research and creation of eurhythmy, Rudolph Steiner (founder of the Waldorf Schools), , found that vibrations made when pronouncing the long vowels, `A`, `E` and `U,` stimulated the heart, lungs, and the thyroid, pineal, pituitary, and adrenal glands during laboratory tests.
The position of Ruku is very similar to the Forward Bend Position in yoga. Ruku stretches the muscles of the lower back, thighs, legs and calves, and allows blood to be pumped down into the upper torso. It tones the muscles of the stomach, abdomen, and kidneys. Forming a right angle allows the stomach muscles to develop, and prevents flabbiness in the mid-section. **

**This position also promotes a greater flow of blood into the upper regions of body – particularly to the head, eyes, ears, nose, brain, and lungs – allowing mental toxins to be released. Over time, this improves brain function and ones personality, and is an excellent stance to maintain the proper position of the fetus in pregnant women.**

**The Sujud is said to activate the “crown chakra,” which is related to a person’s spiritual connection with the universe around them and their enthusiasm for spiritual pursuits. This nerve pathway is also correlated to the health of the brain, nervous system, and pineal gland. Its healthy function balances ones interior and exterior energies. **

**In Sujud, we also bend; thus activating the “base chakra,” which controls basic human survival instincts and provides essential grounding. This helps to develop levelheaded and positive thinking along with a highly motivated view of life, and maintains the health of the lymph and skeletal systems, the prostate, bladder, and the adrenal glands. We also bend the “sacral chakra” during Sujud, thus benefiting and toning the reproductive organs.**

**The position of Al Qaadah, (or Julus) is similar to the Thunderbolt Pose in yoga, which firms the toes, knees, thighs, and legs. It is said to be good for those prone to excessive sleep, and those who like to keep long hours. Furthermore, this position assists in speedy digestion, aids the detoxification of the liver, and stimulates peristaltic action in the large intestine.**

**Last, but not least, the “throat chakra” is activated by turning the head towards first the right and then the left shoulder in the closing of the prayer. This nerve path is linked to the throat, neck, arms, hands, bronchials, and hearing – effecting individual creativity and communication. **

**It is believed that a person who activates all seven nerve pathways at least once a day can remain well balanced emotionally, physically and spiritually. Since this is the goal of all sincere Muslims, we all should strive to attain the perfection of stance, recitation, and breathing recommended in the Hadith while performing our prayers – the very same techniques of perfection taught in popular yoga, Tai Chi, and many other exercise classes. **

Some More Advantages of the Muslim Prayer:

Psychological advantage:

**This is a great psychological advantage and it gives relief to the person concerned as life is full of worries and in this position he gets at least a transient refuge from the agonizing problems. **

**When a person goes to the position of Sajda(Prostration), his whole body is in active motion. This position can be considered as a mini dive as the musalli (one who offers prayer) goes to rest his forehead on the ground while his hands are placed at the sides. This brings most of the body muscles if not all in active motion and serves to give them some exercise. The hands are then specifically stretched out and thence the forearm as well as arm muscles are supposed to bear the weight in the Sajda(Prostration) position. It gives good exercise to the muscles of the upper limb. The Prophet (peace be upon him) in a hadith advised not to put the forearms flatly on the ground but to keep them elevated above ground and this is better for the forearm and arm muscles. **

**Sajda(Prostration) is a unique position as this is the only position in which brain (or head) becomes lower than the heart and hence for the first time the blood gushes towards the brain with full force whereas in all other positions (even when lying) brain is above the heart when it has to work against gravity to send blood to the brain. In the position of Sajda(Prostration) due to the increased blood supply the brain receive more nourishment and it has good effect upon memory, vision, hearing, concentration, psyche and all other cognitive abilities. **


**People who offer their prayers regularly have more will power and can cope with the difficulties of life in a much better manner. **

**They have less incidence of headaches, psychological problems and other defects of cognitive function. In the unique position of Sajda(Prostration) the neck muscles get best exercise. They have to bear the load when the forehead lies at the ground hence the neck muscles become stronger. One can note the tense pressure at the neck muscles in the position of Sajda(Prostration) specially the active motion of the neck and the facial muscles when the head is being lifted. (e.g. one inch above the ground) and it will be noticed that they are in a very active motion. **

**More strong cervical muscles mean the cervical vertebra will be better protected. Strength of cervical muscles is important as the head rests upon cervical vertebra supported by cervical musculature. In fact head performs rotator movements over the cervical vertebra. In any accident cervical neck examination is especially important to the physicians because of its extraordinary importance. It is uncommon that a person who offers his prayers regularly will get the usual neck myalgias or cervical spondylosis as the neck muscles particularly become very strong due to the 34 sajdas(Prostrations) offered daily in five prayers.

The unique position of Sajda(Prostration) also has positive effects upon the back muscles as while going into Sajda and getting up from it the back muscle contract actively and they become stronger. Probably it is because of this reason that a person who is regular in prayers will (rarely) get backache. **

---

Respected, author, I do hope that I have not offended you, in any way. You have my truest sympathy with regards to the most unfortunate experiences you had in certain mosques. However, I again would like to point out, that the experiences of other Muslims may be different and more positive than yours. I think you are an intelligent and brave man who will try to understand what I have tried to express. In fact I am sure that you will , because you too are one of us. i.e. (quoting you)

“1- you are an untarnished and beautiful people who love truth “
“2- you are a confident and secure people who can take criticism.”


Kind regards and Best of Luck.

``music is not haram ``#92 by URUS on September 10, 2004 2:47pm PT

I guess this means that we are going to see a musical instrument in a Mosque anytime now?

None have witnessed a musical instrument in a mosque for the past 1400 years but who knows, it might happen, right?

``nasha of anything is haram ``

Are you sure? I am certain there will be some Muslim who will disagree with you there.

After all Islam is willing to prostitute itself into drinking bhang and there are people who delude themselves and others into believing that such behavior is Islamic and actually ask me to consider such Mosques as alternatives. The strange thing is these Muslims act as if this Bhang drinking Islam is the ``norm`` and the mosques which don`t serve Bhang as ``extremist`` and ``very rare``.

So if there is a ``Sufi mosque`` then why not a special mosque for those of us who feel that ``true`` Islam considers music to be ``not haram``?

I ran into a ``Gay Mosque`` recently , these guys even have a website! so those of us who want to find arguments to defend this faith can now say ``Islam is not homophobic`` ...

What will we have next? perhaps a mosque that upholds the oft repeated punchline ``Islam is for peace``?

Sarcasm aside, consider this: honesty.

If you dishonestly recast Islam in a western light and then try to pass it off as Islam you delude yourself and other innocent people and prolong the conflict between the religions.

If you like something about the west: for example their music, embarce music rather than try to twist your own religion into a western mold. Ofcourse the ``sellers`` of Islam will do everything and anything to market their religion but you only have to open your eyes to see that these are not ``reformers`` or ``revisionists`` or those who do ``ijtihad`` but these are slick oil salespeople who merely want more converts to brainwash and control because their consumer base is dying and sick or leaving in hordes.

There are some cultures that value freedom, love, equality and justice. There are other cultures that scorn freedom, love, equality and justice. Islam belongs to a culture that does NOT value freedom (Islam means submission), does NOT stand for love (its shirk to love), nor equality (just look at your mosques segregated by gender) nor does Islam stand for justice (half witness anyone?).

Why force everyone to believe it to be otherwise?

You are prolonging your miseries and the miseries of the dwellers of this earth. The intelligent and the brave will see it and see what else is out there and embrace the best of whatever is out there WITHOUT trying to recast or lie or market their religion as something OTHER than what it really is.

When you try to twist Islam out of shape you anger the fanatics who then come after the ``westerners`` and you guys with a greater vengeance. Why not leave the fundamentalists to their fate and their religion and join the rest of us? Wouldn`t that be easier than forcing everyone to be like everyone else? Islam is simply incompatible with the west!

a very immature piece of literature,
you prompted a response because of the religions involved

i think more than anything else
``thark`` is a very big aspect to your personality

don`t you get to see girls elsewhere?
you have to do it when you`re worshiping?

music is not haram
nasha of anything is haram
and when beats make you go crazy
and advocate drinking and promiscuity
thats when it is haram

each person`s relationship with god is unique
if the enclosure of a mosque does not agree with you
how about a cave or a circle drawn in the sand?

think, before you speak Mr. Shiraz
the rabbit hole goes alot deeper

``In your earlier posts in this thread you have spoken on chivalry and being a gentleman which was quite nice, especially coming from a desi. However you just tarnished your image by saying this about Faiza... ``Really I don`t even find that woman attractive.`` ``#90 by doublec on September 10, 2004 12:20pm PT


Main Entry: chiv·al·rous
Pronunciation: `shi-v&l-r&s
Function: adjective
1 : VALIANT
3 a : marked by honor, generosity, and courtesy b : marked by gracious courtesy and high-minded consideration especially to women

I said it in the spirit of not giving her or anyone the wrong idea. It is more courteous to speak the truth than to lead someone on, in my book. So I would rather just tell them how I truly feel about them. I think that is being gentlemanly in my book.