Church vs Mosque

Athar Shiraz,

In your earlier posts in this thread you have spoken on chivalry and being a gentleman which was quite nice, especially coming from a desi. However you just tarnished your image by saying this about Faiza... ``Really I don`t even find that woman attractive.``

MQM

I already have a bad raputation at this forum and this does not bother me very much. So don`t worry about it.

Once again you do not make sense with your example. If a man has to have $1000 to support a woman (who sets this standard by the way?) but he meets a woman who is willing to sleep with him and live with him at $500 then what prevents this couple from getting into a marriage with Nikah? lust? shirking responsibility? what? this argument is ridiculous. You have to give up one of the two mutually exclusive ideas. One, muta`a is not allowed to a MAN (what has woman done to deserve this) who can afford a permanenet marriage; two, woman can demand a compensation to her heart`s content. These are two impossible objectives.

Urstruly:

Thank you for that analysis of history of jurisprudence. Are there any practical exmaples you know of based on ijtihad (or fatwas)? I would assume that you`d have to have an entire array of ijtihad or fatwas as 95% of the Muslims were those who lived outside of the desert out-posts of Arabia.

It seems though that the entire structure for keeping pace with changes was highly fragmented.

A question in reference to colonial impact: can we say that because of no recognized institutional mechanism - ie clerical class- it was easier for colonial powers to enslave the people? Thus another side-effect of no clergy? Despite the negative colonial influences, the Shias continue to practice ijtihad. The only reason I see them able to do so is because they have an institutionalized clergy. Shia Imams are respected even at local levels. Those leading sunni in prayer are often butt-end of jokes.

I`m not passing a judgement on anyone. But do you think- keeping in mind the array of changes: social, political, scientific, economic etc. - the majority of Muslims (nearly all of whom remained illiterate until this century) lost out cause there was no centralized authority they could look up to?


Solitude:

Yes it probably will end up that way for Muslims as well. As you know the reformation was aided by the printing press and thus access to knowledge - which eventually gives credence to common sense. The will of the people determined the direction of religion, what was acceptable and what had become irrelevant.

Common sense my dear friend.

Is it not possible that the man has enough money, but just not enough to support a wife?

``What is there to customize when someone has nothing to customize?`` This statement basically defines the world into the haves and the have nots? What kind of classification is this? There are millions of people with money who can only afford for themselves or not even that. ``Under muta, as I had mentioned in a previous post, the requirements and contributions are customizable, flexible unlike permanent marriage.`` For instance, the requirement is $1000.00 per month to maintain a wife. A man can only provide half of that, in a permanent marriage you cannot marry the woman unless you have the $1000.00. In the temporary marriage say you have $500, it can be stipulated that you will contribute that much and the woman can if she wants say she will contribute so and so. What happened to your logic? Please explain yourself.

And then when you talk about inheritence, you again jump to conclusions without thinking before what you are saying.

Inheritence means everything even a penny, your argument is totally ridiculous. Even that penny will go in inheritence according to sharia. Furthermore, say the man improves later economically becomes the richest man in the world? How can you say that there is no possibility of this? According to you, he will die broke lol. Wishfull thinking eh.

Please think before you respond, this is a public forum, and what you write seriously impacts your reputation and your critiquing capability.

MQM # 73

In your point# 2 you write:

``One cannot pursue muta if they have the means for permanent marriage. Let me remind you that permanent marriage has certain constraints, 1. Financial and household obligation on the husband for the wife and kids 2. The payment of mahr (dowry) by the groom to the bride 3. Fullfillment of tamkeen by the wife (providing sexual and reproductive access to the husband) 4. Following the commands of the husband with regard to Islamic law.``

But then in the very next point# 3 you write:

``Under muta, as I had mentioned in a previous post, the requirements and contributions are customizable, flexible unlike permanent marriage. The woman has a right to stipulate what she wants, and so does the man. Is there any woman in her right mind who would not choose to stipulate expenses, maintenance, etc? Furthermore, according to sharia, children born in Muta inherit the fight of inheritence, and are the responsibility of the father.

I think you are again contradicting yourself in the same breath. In one breath you say that Muta`a is only permissible to those who cannot fulfil the financial obligations of a regular marriage and in the second breath you are saying that ``requirements and contributions are customizable``. What is there to customize when someone has nothing to customize? How can a women, persumably of right mind, as per your contention, would ``stipulate expenses, maintenance`` etc when there is nothing to stipulate. MQM, you cannot have the cake and eat it too. And what is this stuff with inheritence. Where would the inheritence come in for a man who did not have means to marry a woman?

Your ignorant, biased, and clearly crappy response does not warrant a response by me :)

So take care and peace out.

PS Thanks for letting the world know of your utter ignorance, haha.

the article is nonsense and you are holding the glass of beer like a goddam sissy - your privacy though, should have been respected and ofcourse a good day in pakistan will be when you are allowed to say your usual crap without any fear of being lynched.

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``Solitude: The state or quality of being alone or remote from others `` #81 by Jibbe on September 9, 2004 10:03pm PT

I was under the impression that solitude was a good kind of dissociation from negative people for example you may search for solitude in places like so:



I thought it was a voluntary aloofness akin to the one enjoyed by philosophers and Kings. I used solitude as a nick name to encourage Pakistanis to break away from the peer pressure / familial pressure and societal pressure they suffer from. It was also inspired by Marquez and his 100 years of Solitude.

Thanks for pointing it out, I guess its time for a nick name change. I consider myself quite social as you can probably tell from the picture. I just don`t enjoy myself around a certain brand of Pakistanis (most likely your kind).

Mr. Jibbe, you are not very nice in your post and you make assertions and once again confine yourself to personal attacks. I implore you, please stick to arguing what is presented infront of you : the comparison between churches and mosques. If you can`t do that don`t attack people, go into their personal history or make them feel bad. This is not the ``Truck Stand`` (or Truck Adda) this is a place for civil discourse. I can talk about my own personal history and make myself vulnerable in front of all because I hope to glean morals from them and to inform people.

As for those who find me attractive, thank you! It takes a beautiful people to see beauty in others. Thanks all for your wonderful emails of support.

About Pakistani Women

I take back what I said about Pakistani Muslim women, I think Pakistani Muslim women have been VERY kind towards me! I think the fault is in me. I have been unable to see their love or their beauty and instead I pretend like they don`t like me or they are weird. So they may be just a little overwhelmed by their families and a little neurotic, but who isn`t? I think I try to convince myself that such women don`t like me because really deep down inside I would like to be with a blonde, but who wouldn`t?

Instead of admitting that I would rather be with a blonde Swede than a beautiful Pakistani woman I pretend like Pakistani women don`t find me attractive. Pakistani girls have been very tolerant and very indulgent of me :) Thank you!

In the end I have faith that love can conquer all.

Now back to how much mosques stink! and how the stench arises from the fact that our women are not allowed to spruce it up or put some febreeze in them.

(for those who haven`t heard of febreeze it is supposed to neutralize the stale mouthed smell emanating from the male worshippers which the Prophet referred to as ``like perfume for Allah``; yes maybe for Allah but everone else doesn`t think its prefume...)

Athar Shiraz

Re: solitude/aka Shiraz # 75 & 76

Solitude: The state or quality of being alone or remote from others.

I cant help but feel sorry for this character. Not only is he just plain weird, but hes freaking obsessed with bashing Islam - nothing wrong with that. But then this joker comes out and says ``OH PLEASE STOP SHOWING MY PICTURES - PLEASE DONT CALL ME BAD NAMES, PLEASE PLEASE, IVE ALREADY GONE THROUGH ENOUGH STUFF IN MY LIFE. DONT MAKE IT WORSE. LETS TALK ABOUT THE FACTS.``

Unfortunately its hard to discuss issues with Mr. Shiraz due to the fact that he has tunnel vision. Whats the point? I mean, Shiraz, its quite obvious to most of us is that by posting articles in chowk you are more intent on raising controversy and bashing peoples faith then to discuss and analyse any situation. Though I agree with some of what you have to say....youre just self deluded. Just because you didnt get laid enough, were sexually molested as a kid (read his other essays), got beat to a pulp by your dad (I cant blame him really) - these are tough tough things. Since you live in New York, why dont you visit a couple of places : 1. The barber (judging by your picture its been a long time - by the way, what hair gel do you use - its done wonders for the spikes!) and 2. a good psychiatrist - this is a long term commitment - you will probably need more than just a session.

SOLITUDE SAYS THAT MOST PEOPLE Agree with HIM. I just cant pictutre it, can we have an impromptu vote.........

I say this cowboy is out of touch - anyone agree?

solitude mian,

........ i think you are very attreactive and if i was a girl i would love to cuddle with you.... so there!

urstruly,

.... so you are blaming the dismal condition of the muslims on the british instead of on islam ? ...... you remind me of the diehard communists who kept on blaming the capitalists, the bourgeois, the revisionists, the petty bourgeois, and their mothers-in-law even as they were being swept onto the dust heap of history ........... like the muslims they never questioned the wisdom of their prophet marx and the pious caliphs lenin and stalin ...........

MQMpower,

.......... you should be ashamed of yourself - promoting prostitution in the guise of religion !................ ``there is a clear distinction between permanent and temporary marriage, and the latter has been provided not as an escape but as a rescue option``......... astagfirullah!

.......... nevertheless, muta is an ingenious loophole and we have to commend the pious men who came up with this wonderful piece of islamic legislation which makes life so much easier for the working woman ............ then ummah is grateful to these selfless women for running a wonderful ``rescue`` misson ........ but do they really have to shut down for the entire ten days of muharram ?..........

......... and what is this i hear about being at least a day`s camel ride away from home before you can qualify for this option?......... i understand that the momins are renting mail-boxes in gujranwala which is exactly a day`s camel ride from heera mandi in lahore ....... is this legal ?.......... arn`t they violating the spirit of the law by not actually moving to gujranwala with their permanent wives ? ............. maybe urstruly, with his vast knowledge of islamic jurisprudence, can answer this perplexing question ...........

My Friend Arthur,
Have courage, these ppl are making you feel bad abt the way God has made you. Remember the beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder. I am sure that you do not care about ppl who are only interested in the physical looks. I am sure that the ppl you mentioned look beyond ur not-so-pretty face.

Please have faith and do not lose your courage. If God has made you ugly then it is OK. You should have courage to stand up for yourself. Do not let these people make you feel bad about your appearance. There are still enough fat-ugly-McDonaldsEating-white chicks left in the US of A that will find you attractive. Never lose your faith.

...and yeah btw NY isn`t really a country. Have courage my friend have courage. Yeah you shouldn`t go for the paki girls....angoor khate haiN!

On the Question Of Pictures

Everytime I say something they don`t like they put up that picture and I am just embarrassed but what else can I do?

The picture was taken at a public gathering and I referred Faiza to that picture because I thought it odd and ironic that she had forgotten who I was considering she took the picture with her digital camera. I contacted her for strictly professional reasons and I didn`t have any other motives. I say that as a man who is fairly open about his likes and dislikes. Really I don`t even find that woman attractive.

However this character has twisted this whole thing into something so weird I can`t even begin to fathom its weirdness. But we are in the people`s court and I know the people are on my side :) I can tell from their responses. This behavior will backfire on them just like 9/11 ...

Anyways the point is that such behaviour is making me uncomfortable and I have said it repeatedly but there is no end to this infantile behaviour. What do you hope to gain from this?

Athar Shiraz

About My Looks : Commenting on my Picture And Posting It

I know Pakistanis don`t consider me attractive and for this reason I avoid their company

I am considered attractive by the people of this country (USA) Amongst other people of other countries who find me attractive are people from Italy, Japan, Illinois, New York, England, India, Israel, Netherlands, Finland and Germany and Guyana (atleast I think all the women I have encountered from these countries find me attractive and have given me some very substantial and positive feedback and proof in the form of many wonderful and happy moments).

My opinion of my own appearance is fairly low (considering I grew up amongst Pakistanis) and I have tried to convince others to see me the way Pakistanis see me, but the aforementioned people insist that to them I am fairly attractive (they used words that were much stronger but I shan`t mention because I think those words to be exagerations).

Admittedly I have a very low average when it comes to women from Pakistan (actually there was just one girl who was interested in everything but intercourse; the strange thing about her was that she would bounce up and down on my painfully attentive member and bend it against herself, only adding to the pain ... weird!)

Admittedly I was just with her for carnal reasons but I was cured immediately of those reasons when she started harrassing me about marriage, this is when I was like 21 years old and I suspect she was older.

I used to be upset about this behavior of Pakistani Muslim women but I have grown to appreciate this blessing in disguise.

So really who cares about what you think about my looks! I mean, I am never going back to Pakistan and I am never marrying a Muslim or Pakistani woman anyways.

Just do us all a favor and see if you can rebut what I have proposed, capisce?

Athar Shiraz