Church vs Mosque

Shiraz, a well written article!

I must applause you for entering a place of worship besides from your own religion. I have pondered on many occasions if I am brave enough to go religious place of worship beside my own. Whenever I did feel that I had the courage to enter a church I tended to shy away, avoiding any implications of what they may do to a non-believer of my sort.

Being a Muslim, not staunch, but enough to help me get through on a day to day basis, I always seem to hear from the media that Islam is preached in such ghastly manners, brainwashing Muslim youth to carry racist attacks. Sad to know what priests are educating our youth, though on the other hand, with a growing number of Muslim organisations sprouting, we are seeing peoples thoughts being corrected about Islam. I suppose the same can be said about other religions where two extremes exist, unfortunately you do not hear much about them.

While I was growing up I attended a religious school on the weekend, where, thankfully discussions were not always one sided. Though, later on in my life I would hear, repeatedly, how Muslims were being treated in Palestine, Bosnia, Chechnya, Kashmir and other parts of the world, and how brutally they are being treated. I do feel that pain and anguish they go through. My blood does boil knowing that Muslims are facing a constant holocaust, and all we can do is discuss about the situation and pray to god. And if we did try to help them in anyway, it would seem that we are helping terrorist activity, or we are unknowingly helping terrorist.

Whatever the case, we must not only discuss the pain that our fellow Muslims are being inflicted with, but also discuss about Islam in general that should be able to help us in our lives on a day to day basis. I also believe that we must be able to understand other religions and not treat them as our enemies but learn from them even if it means, as Catfishblue has said that the Holy Prophet broke the rules of Arab norm to bring forth Islam!

It is easier said then done, but then again, as Catfishblue has quite rightly, again, said that we all have gift, and we must embrace it

Shiraz, a well written article!

I must applause you for entering a place of worship besides from your own religion. I have pondered on many occasions if I am brave enough to go religious place of worship beside my own. Whenever I did feel that I had the courage to enter a church I tended to shy away, avoiding any implications of what they may do to a non-believer of my sort.

Being a Muslim, not staunch, but enough to help me get through on a day to day basis, I always seem to hear from the media that Islam is preached in such ghastly manners, brainwashing Muslim youth to carry racist attacks. Sad to know what priests are educating our youth, though on the other hand, with a growing number of Muslim organisations sprouting, we are seeing peoples thoughts being corrected about Islam. I suppose the same can be said about other religions where two extremes exist, unfortunately you do not hear much about them.

While I was growing up I attended a religious school on the weekend, where, thankfully discussions were not always one sided. Though, later on in my life I would hear, repeatedly, how Muslims were being treated in Palestine, Bosnia, Chechnya, Kashmir and other parts of the world, and how brutally they are being treated. I do feel that pain and anguish they go through. My blood does boil knowing that Muslims are facing a constant holocaust, and all we can do is discuss about the situation and pray to god. And if we did try to help them in anyway, it would seem that we are helping terrorist activity, or we are unknowingly helping terrorist.

Whatever the case, we must not only discuss the pain that our fellow Muslims are being inflicted with, but also discuss about Islam in general that should be able to help us in our lives on a day to day basis. I also believe that we must be able to understand other religions and not treat them as our enemies but learn from them even if it means, as Catfishblue has said that the Holy Prophet broke the rules of Arab norm to bring forth Islam!

It is easier said then done, but then again, as Catfishblue has quite rightly, again, said that we all have gift, and we must embrace it

Worshipping Your God Is Good

What I hope most people will see in this is the following:

- Churches make the act of worship easy on your body.

How do they do it? They provide seating (you don`t have to stand up or squat down until your feet and your back hurt or you ankles are twisted out of shape; in other words you are not suffering physically when you are worshipping your god).

Then

- Churches make it easy for you to satiate your soul.

What better way to satiate your soul than to sing of love ? and better still to sing in the companionship of women ! and better still to sing in a language you can understand ! and better still to sing with a musical instrument playing! and better still to have a sip of wine and a little bread (a little snack) in a most reverent manner!

I have walked out of churches feeling light as a feather. I have not felt borne down by the plight of the Taliban or the plight of Arafat and the Hamas. I have never left a church feeling like `Life is a test! and I have to kill, kill, kill` !

I have left Churches with song in my heart and mouth, I have left it with a great feeling; at times its better than music concerts and therapy sessions and acting classes.

Secularism And Religion
Most people have been astonished and asked: ``So you are secular and you go to Churches``. I say to them, being secular does NOT mean being an atheist. Being secular means being able to respect and appreciate all religions (UNLESS its a religion that demands child sacrifice and abuse of women and abuse of children).

Paid Clergy
Some of you have been concluded ``We need to have paid clergy``. You are wrong! The Catholics tried it and it hasn`t worked. Omar stipulated it centuries ago but it hasn`t work and it will not work. Creating a clerical class will oppress you even more as you go to your places of worship only to justify their existence and if you don`t go they will abuse you for being bad and they will attack your lifestyle and your difficulties.

What I learned from the Protestant Churches is this: religion was created for people, so people may be nobler, gentler, kinder and better. A religion FOR the people does NOT include making people so guilty and unhappy that they lash themselves or flagellate themselves. It means SERVING the people. The best clergy I have seen are some of the Christian Protestant Pastors who go around tending to their flock, encouraging it, loving it and protecting it.

These men and women are scholars and philanthropists who are so organized and so thorough in their lives that they live double lives. Atleast that is what I suspect but I could be wrong.

Invitations

Thank you for the invitations to the temples and synagogues. I would be honored to visit.

The essense of Reformation

I suspect the essense of reformation is introspection and criticizing ones own self and finding only the best in others. It means refraining from criticizing others because one does not know the other better than one knows oneself. I think Pakistanis can do this. I think we can beat Turkey in this race for development and progress.

Hmmmmmmmmm..........

... yes the positive Side to it is.... the rekindling of curiousity about other

religions...and comming out of the tunnel vision....of religion.


The whole debate so far is quiet fantastic...... I have already read it twice....

Arthur
Of the three “revealed” religions, Islam, Christianity, Judaism only Islam hasn’t gone through the laundry mat of reformation. Muslim countries aren’t one monolith on one end of spectrum there is turkey and Malaysia, and in the other end there is Afghanistan and Somalia. I was in turkey last year I was pleasantly surprised by the tolerance and liberal attitude of Turkish people, bars, nightclubs, bikini clad girls on beaches and beardless mullahs in mosques.

Christianity isn’t one monolith either, on one end of spectrum you have North America and Europe, and on the other end you have Rwanda, Philippines. Christianity and Islam are world religions, Christianity more so than Islam, in Europe religion is spent force.

English language and culture will rule the world!

I was in Holland couple of years back, in Amsterdam airport all the adverts were in English, I was amazed the Dutch people even amongst themselves spoke in English, I think this process will be replicated the world over and it will be a sad day for minority languages.

I truley enjoyed the artical. I think it is a very honourable act that a muslim man is willing to attend church for the sake of quenching his curiosity- gaining a new perspective. change is only possible when you transcend the barriors put forth against you. new paradigms of philosophy have been attained by deconstruction generated through curiosity. after all, the Holy Prophet broke the rules of arab norm to bring forth Islam.

it is an amazing gift which i believe all of us must embrace.

A Great Hope Rises From Pakistan

My dear friends, countrymen and ladies,

I am most unkind to you and I sense that I may have offended some of you.

Why do I write things that appear caustic to you? Why do I criticize Islam so?

I do it for the following reasons :

1- you are an untarnished and beautiful people who love truth
2- you are a confident and secure people who can take criticism.

I would say point number 1 applies to you because you are not like the Catholics or the Socialists or the Cynics or Anarchists. They don`t believe in good things and virtue and kindness. You do know that there is a right and wrong and if you follow your heart you will find that one day Pakistanis will be beating down the doors of Protestant Churches to be closer to God.

I say 2 applies to you because you are weaned on good soil and air and water and you are healthy and have clear and straightforward minds. Therefore you think most rationally and truthfully and have a deep desire in your noble and pure hearts for whatever is virtuous. I know it and I can read it in your words.

Some of you have spoken of Ijtihad or revising Islam. Let me say this : no matter what you do truth will triumph. If you revise and change you will find yourself indistinguishable from the Protestant Christians of North Western Europe. If you do not revise or change your religion you will find yourselves driven to extinction by the cruelty of your own deeds.

The wise , the intelligent and men and women with foresight will not wait until the entire community catches up, revises and changes or perishes. They are already going to Churches and synagogues and temples and seeing what else is out there. They are actively finding their happiness and exercizing their liberties. You have the right to be innocent, don`t let religions like Islam take that away from you. Go and participate in the marketplace of ideas and see that things CAN BE BETTER!

You already speak in English and call each other Sir and Madam :) You are well on your way to becoming gentlemen and ladies and leading the rest of your people. You do need courage though and the ability to give praise where it is due and give credit to the rightful.

Go forth and westernize for there is great virtue in westernization!

Women and Their Companionship Is A Virtue

``Shiraz, seems like Church’s are potentially good pickup points. Thanks for informing us!! Just one thing, could you please let us know where your mom goes?? Doesn’t sound good if someone of us try to pick her up… `` #16 by imran on September 7, 2004 3:56pm PT

My mother looks like Queen Elizabeth the second.



She looks like an English woman and a beautiful English woman at that.

I have three sisters. Two of my sisters are medical students and the third one is majoring in history at Smith while she competes in swimming contests. They are all just as lovely.

My family has been to Greek Orthodox services and visited Baptist Churches also. I would not mind if you approach my sisters and my mother as long as you do it as a gentleman. In the end my siblings and my mother make the final decision. This is something I learnt from the English people and their traditions of chivalry: which is that you respect women in every way and give them the right to honor you with their presance and love.

Everyone loves attention and flattery unless its unwanted and uncouth. No woman likes violent men who treat them like (bud) ``organs`` bought during Nikah (literally means ``right to use that organ``). Women who do like violence and abuse need medical attention.


Everyone loves compliments and kind words. I like it when gay men compliment me even though I may not be interested in them. So if you are kind and gentle and noble in your dealings towards women go ahead accost them! The companionship of women is a virtue and to deal with them in a noble and honorable and virtuous manner is a most European and English custom.

However even though the article refers to a woman at a church I would say this. The author did not mean to portray the Church as a place where you may pick up women although there is nothing wrong with it. You will find virtuous women at Churches. There is nothing wrong if you approach them in a gentlemanly fashion, courtesy them and are polite and respectful towards them.

The character in the article refers to the human side of the church goer. Desire for women is not immoral. Desire for women does not die in a Church. In a mosque the desire may be twisted to homosexuality because there are no women around. Is it any wonder the Pathans are such devout Muslims who go to pray 5+ times a day.

If anything women are a most civilizing influence on most men. I am sure the veiled and trodden wives of Bin Ladin can do little to civilize him but most American and European and even moderate Pakistani women have a most soothing influence on men. In an Islamic world of extremists our women are incapable of being a moderating influence because we suppress and oppress them brutally. Give them a chance and they will fill your world with song and poetry.

Try it because the soul of men is in ferment often because it cannot find that love. I hope my dear fellows that all of you find love and happiness and all of you find virtuous and noble women.

A very cleverly written essay. though i have to admit i dont agree with a lot of the one sided commentary, Shiraz does raise some serious questions as to the entire point of worship.

I first went to a church a couple of years ago, it was a Baptist church, there were nearly all african american - there was singing, there was shouting, there was healing and there was a lot of fainting.....countless hallelujas, the whole thing seemed quite bizarre. Yet I appreciated their `prayers` because it was heart felt and full of raw emotions.

In Islam - the reason there is no singing and dancing and all the rest is quite simple and it does make sense. What separates human beings from animals - it is our intellect, and this is what we apply to our prayers, not emotion.

I have often envied the christian churches as one can leave there on an emotional high without the controversies that surround many of our mosques. Most imams have tunnel vision and cannot relate to the masses, unless they talk about Israel or the war on Islam. Alot of times its in Arabic, a language many Muslims do not understand.
I went to a mosque just yesterday after quite a while, and as soon as the prayers were over, woman outside had lined themselves up to beg...two men who had prayed side by side with me, approached me upon the completion of the prayer to shake my hand, i accepted, happy to meet any `muslim brother.` two seconds later they would whisper in my ear asking for money.

Yet to blame Islam would be naive and ignorant...

Arthur:
Just a few days back I was thinking: whatever happened to bro Arthur, no islamophobic article in more than a month. How is that possible....

``My own story dwarfs in comparison to my cousin’s who was abducted by an Arab Muslim from the holiest of mosques and later left to die in the deserts. ``
K, from what I remember in the last article you were anducted by some pseudo-islamic mullah and now its your cousin. Wat kinda F upped family do you have? Seriously you guys should get some special police protection thingy.

And on top of that you have started going to church, next thing we know some priest wants to get into your pants. Be careful ok!

Hey next time try worshipping in a strip joint, I can gurantee you alot more spiritual satisfaction. Guess what: the hotty next to you will even take off that red dress and you can even buy her an extra glass of wine!

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Its difficult to compare a church with a mosque...its like comparing apples and oranges. Nonetheless an interesting piece of writing, keep up the good work!

hot girls and singing!!!!
are you sure it was a church and not a club?
But seriously whats the deal I thought you secular types were not in to organized religion and now your new ``hobby`` is attending churhes on sunday. FANTASTIC!!!!!

Apologies for using ``They`` Instead of ``There`` in post 44

I cannot comment on how prevalent is muta amongst the shias in Pakistan. I can say that the muslims of Pakistan and India regardless of sect have a strong tendency to follow traditional norms. For instance, interethnic, intertribal, and interclass marriages are often frowned upon and some have led to high profile murder or stigmitazation of the couples. This happens regardless of sect. Therefore, I would quite cautiously say that since the shia are not a majority in the subcontinental muslim areas, they haven`t had the opportunity to experiment with an islamic government based on the shia school of thought. and therefore the institution of muta might not be as prevalent as it is in Iran.

In answer to your second question, let me first clarify that the vast majority of muslims in Pakistan favor a secular form of government that respects Islamic traditions and norms. The religious-based parties and their mandate are clearly in the minority. This is regardless of sect so placing shias in that category alone is not accurate. Number 2, majority rule over a minority always inspires fear of intimidation and exploitation of the minority by the majority. This is the very same reason, the sunnis and kurds of Iraq vehemently oppose a shia-religiously oriented form of government in that country. For instance, during the 80s when General Zia gave sunni extremists a free hand to prosper and multiply with the aim of using them against the soviets, Pakistan and Karachi in particular saw the advent and proliferation of sectarian violence primarily aimed at the shia minority (ie, Anjuman-e-Sipah Sahaba, which is now known as SSP). Therefore, there lies this fear that a sunni-mandate shall force shias to either compromise on their beliefs or face persecution.

A case in point during 1980 the shias laid siege to Islamabad in protest over the zakat ordinance as it went against shia jurisprudence for the Zakat collected to be distributed by a nonshia. General Zia had been adamant about this and it took this massive million man march to bring him to the conclusion that irritating this minority would bring havoc to the nation.

I have included this excerpt from Khaled Ahmed, Consulting Editor of the Friday Times

Origin of Sectarian Violence
After coming to power, General Zia took over the populist slogan of Nizam-e-Mustafa and imposed shariah on Pakistan. It really meant the imposition of the Sunni Hanafi fiqh or jurisprudence followed by the majority population from which the Shias were excluded. Two early laws under shariah enforced by him, failed miserably: the first, abolition of riba (interest), failed because of the inability of the Islamic scholars to reinterpret Islam for modern conditions; the second, zakat, failed because the Shia jurisprudence, called Fiqh-i-Jaafaria, had a conflicting interpretation of zakat. In 1980, an unprecedented procession of Shias, led by Mufti Jaafar Hussain, laid siege to Islamabad and forced General Zia to exempt the Shia community from the deduction of zakat. The concept of Sunni ushr (poor-due on land) is also rejected by Shia jurisprudence. It appears that, when the anti-Shia movement started in Jhang in the 1980s, General Zia not only ignored it but saw it as his balancing act against the rebellious Shia community. This was worsened by Imam Khomeini`s criticism of General Zia.

The rise of Maulana Haq Nawaz Jhangvi in the stronghold of big Shia landlords in Punjab changed the sectarian scene in Pakistan. There is evidence that General Zia was warned of Jhangvi`s anti-Shia and anti-Iran movement, but he ignored the warning and allowed it to blossom into a full-fledged religious party called Anjuman-i-Sipah-i-Sahaba of Pakistan (ASSP). In small towns, the old Shia-Sunni debate restarted with the fury that had become dampened in the past. The tracts which carried this debate were scurrilous in the extreme and helped the clerics to whip up passions. Meanwhile, in 1986, General Zia allowed a `purge` of Turi Shias in the divided city of Parachinar (capital of Kurram Agency on the border with Afghanistan) at the hands of the Sunni Afghan mujahideen in conjunction with the local Sunni population.

Parachinar was the launching-pad of the Mujahideen attacks into Afghanistan and the Turis were not cooperative. Tehrike-i-Nifaz-i-Fiqha-i-Jaafaria had come into being during the dispute over zakat in 1980. When the Parachinar massacre occurred, the party was led by a Turi leader, Allama Arif-ul-Hussaini, a companion of Imam Khomeini during his exile in Najaf. (He is celebrated as a martyr in Iran with a postage-stamp portrait.) Allama Hussaini was murdered in Peshawar in August 1988, for which the Turis held General Zia responsible. That was also the year of General Zia`s death (within a fortnight of Hussaini`s murder) in an air-crash in Bahawalpur, and for a time there was rumour of Shia involvement in his assassination although no solid evidence supporting this speculation was ever uncovered. The NWFP governor, General Fazle Haq, whom the Turis accused of complicity in the murder of Allama Hussaini, was ambushed and killed in 1991. In 1989, the Afghan mujahideen government-in-exile came into being in Peshawar after the Soviet retreat from Afghanistan. At the behest of Saudi Arabia, the exiled Shia mujahideen of Iran were not included in this government. The Saudis paid over 23 million dollars a week during the 519-member session of the Mujahideen shura as bribe for it.19 In 1990, Maulana Jhangvi was murdered at the climax of his anti-Iran and anti-Shia campaign of extreme insult and denigration.20 The same year, as if in retaliation, an activist of Sipah-i-Sahaba shot the Iranian consul Sadiq Ganji dead in Lahore. The tit-for-tat killings were thus started. Maulana Isar-ul-Qasimi, chief of the Sipah, was gunned down in 1991.

Since then, the state of Pakistan has had to answer for the killing of more Iranians in Pakistan. Another consular officer was gunned down in Multan and a number of Iranian air force trainees were ambushed in Rawalpindi on inside information received by the killers, thus implying involvement from sectarian officers from within the army. Most commentators in Pakistan are scared of telling the truth. Most inter-sectarian dialogue is fake since its great facade of speech-making is nothing but divine-sounding rationalisation. Almost all Muslim clerics lie when it comes to sectarian deaths. General Zia allowed the Deobandi lashkars to attack Gilgit and put under challenge the historical domination there of Ismaili and Shia communities.21 In 2003, the anti-Shia violence was extended to Balochistan where the Hazara Shia community was targeted in two incidents killing over 50 men. The Pakistan government, speaking through prime minister Mir Zafrullah Jamali and interior minister Faisal Saleh Hayat, claimed that the act of terrorism could have been planned and executed by India through its freshly opened consulates in Afghanistan. It later came to light that the action was coordinated by the banned sectarian organisations, Jaish-e-Muhammad, Sipah Sahaba and Lashkar-i-Jhangvi.22 Jaish-i-Muhammad, as an offshoot of Sipah Sahaba, had carried out the murders of Shia doctors in Karachi in 1998. Its Al Qaeda-backed activist Sheikh Umar executed the kidnapping of Daniel Pearl in 2002.

---

Pakistan as a state according to the majority of Pakistanis cannot function with stability if freedom to practice religion is not provided. In Iran, special rights are granted to the minorities of different faiths there. I`m quite sure the minorities in Iran would prefer a secular form of government over the existing theocratical democracy.

In addition, one must read the history behind the revolution of Iran to determine whether this was a religious revolution, or was it a populace uprising by the people against a despotic ruler led by the religious clergy who later using their influence and popularity drafted a religious form of government.

In terms of Canada, I am not in a position to comment as I am not privy to the situation in that country.

I hope you are not advocating a return to the bloody days scene during that part of the century. In the words of the recently visiting former Prime Minister of Malaysia Dr Mahathir Bin Mohamad he said that secterianism is the Ummah`s curse and that ``Today we see the Sunnis and the Shia, both vehemently maintaining that they are Muslims, but they fight and kill each other because each accuse the other of not being Muslims. Yet the world, the non-Muslims consider both sects as Muslims and do not differentiate between them, condemning both of being guilty of terrorism etc`` I would care to disagree a little bit in saying that for the most part it is the sunnis killing the shias predominantly speaking.

The Iranian governemnt has on numerous occasions called for global muslim unity to face injustices that muslims face across the globe from Palestine, to Kashmir. However, unfortunately, in Pakistan and across the world both sunnis and shias are too busy in getting at each other`s throats than to sit down and work towards progress.


Thanks

Shabber

A. Shiraz/Solitude,

Your article was interesting and i learnt something from it. However it seems that you are angry with your religion or should i say, the way people practice it. It seems that you have more anger towards the people who follow it than the religion itself.

I was once told a story by a priest of my parish which was aimed to calm people who were sad that one of theirs was being persecuted.

The time was around the early 90`s, when in Hyderabad (Sindh) a Christian student who in her Islamiyat exam was supposed to have written something blasphemous against Prophet Mohammed. (I`ll skip the details on why she choose Islamiyat over Civics, a subject non-Muslims could take instead of Islamiyat). The day the teacher reported her to the board of education all hell broke loose. There were demonstrations in the streets of Hyderabad, people were outraged and wanted to kill this girl who was not even 18 years old. This continued for a few days and eventually the girl converted to Islam. As soon as the demonstrators found this out everything came back to normal. No one asked for her head anymore.

The following Sunday i went to Church and was surprised that the priest would speak to us on this topic. (surprised as to why one would like to draw attention to himself) He told us that we should not feel sad and should pray for the girl and for those that were out to get her life. I was surprised as to why he wanted us to pray for those people who were after the girl. He went on to tell us that Islam is still a young religion and that the followers will learn as time goes on. He informed us that we as Christians did the same 400 years ago and were had the same degree of brutality in us. In 400 years Christianity has matured and people have found ways to make sure that religion is not used by individuals for personal gains. (even though they are some who still do it)

So, my friend, as long as they are people like yourself, Jibran B. and many others who question their religion there is hope that one day the followers of Islam will mature and will find way to weed out people to use religion for their own gain.