Train to Pakistan 2004 - Broad Ways

veeresh #136
I have seen Bandini broadcast on Zee Cinema more than once. The last scenes were the most memorable in the whole movie, don`t you think? Even Dharmendra would not deny that.

btw, hope your next article is coming soon.

mannyd 134/135 . . . wow, a weekend with Dharmendra? What do you do and from where, is one may ask, that you manage such a weekend?

Yes, Bandhini was the kind of movie which makes you think even decades later. I do recall discussion and debate on the same subject, who should Nutan have gone with at the end of the movie . . . but then, this was early `60s, right, so maybe Dharmendra as the younger lover would have not been acceptable in a commercial film?

A debate on Bandhini in the open media, if you could contact Dharmendra and get him to catalyse it, in this day and age . . . the songs alone would bring the movie back mainstream, I think. I wonder who has the rights for them now? Never seen the movie on television.

+++

Raghu is our son, he travelled with me to Pakistan as part of a promise . . . I covered that in the first chapter. Thank you for reading what I write, makes my day.

mannyd #134
Very interesting! It is hard to believe sometimes that Dharmendra ever acted as a shareef sober type :).

Sadna, Nooralain, Rahul..

Interesting discussion about Dharmaendra`s films. I have seen none of his films except Bandini, Seeta Aur Gita and Sholay. Now that I have some more names. I`ll go rent them.

Recently my wife and I spent a weekend with Dharmandra and His first wife. He is a master entertainer with a great eye for timing. AFter all these decades, he was still talking most about Bandini. Apparently thers was a discussion between the writer and director if Nutan should go with him or Ashok Kumar in the end. Dharamendra happened to eaves drop on the conversation and was incensed to hear the writer win. It was hilarious to hear his emotions in Punjabi.

``If there is one sentiment I believe in, then that is this - India and Pakistan can, as separate countries but with motive forces together, rule the world. ``

I share your sentiment Veeresh, but I am afraid that is what it will remain for the foreseeable future. If you throw in Bengladesh, Burma, Sri Lanka, Nepal, Bhutan, Afghanistan along with India and Pakistan, the whole amalgumate will still have a hard time keeping up with China in the next century.

There comes a time in the affairs of nations....We just failed to catch the tide.

By the way who is Raghuvir?

oh good the editors finally woke up

---

i could talk about movies forever. . . .

mittarji:

i agree with you about bandini and saheb, bibi aur ghulam! :)

veeresh #130: :))

nb/129 - hunh? If Jemina is with Hugh, then you are with who? And Hugh left who, and now Imran is with who?

jang/127 - that was my line. tahmed is busy propping up lesbians or something like that on FV board.

Apropos of nothing whatsoever, but goss nevertheless, Veeresh, is that Jemima is a free woman. You first brought this matter to our attention, so.....

``I like it when interacts at chowk move into information exchanges between people who would otherwise launch into pissing competitions. ``

is that you tahmed? i rather think that an information exchange and a tasteful pissing match are not mutually exclusive.

dharmendra is a hoot in award shows where he shows-up drunk (in a nice way) and talks about how he stitched a new suit in anticipation every year but was never called for the film-fair award. his fight with a tiger in Aankhen (?) was cutting-edge then.

sadna #123 it is the one.and it was somewhere in between that he developed his unique swagger like dance style which is so easy to fall back on when you are drunk and have to dance..like in baraats..
veeresh #124 glad you did not mind..but i hoped u would have said ``et tu dost-mittar??`` :-)
and when you are talking about idealist era and Bandini, you are talking about Bimal Roy more than anyone else.And Nutan.And ``Sujata``, which I like more than Bandini, because of its strong idealistic overtones and I think the best performance ever by Nutan.
nooralain#125 sunny wooden?nahi yaar.you have to go thru his rahul rawail n rajkumar santoshi association(Arjun,Dacait,Ghayal etc.) to realize how much angst he carries under that seemingly wooden exterior.

noorie:
Bandini came at the same time as Guru Dutt`s films. I wouldn`t be surprised if Bimal Roy was one of those bengali film makers from whom GD drew his inspiration. As you probably know, he was a Maharashtrian who assumed a Bengali name, took a bengali wife (Geeta Roy), used SD Burman, etc. As you probably know, I consider Bandini and GD`s Saheb Bibi Ghulam as two of the best, if not the best, B&W films; better than the much touted Mughal-e-Azam and Mother India (colour). And it also had Nutan at her best!

veeresh,

i`ve seen bandini, just recently thanks to the technology of badly recorded videos, and i thought it was an excellent movie. depending on when it was made though, my parents may have been beyond their teens. :) and i would definitely recommend it as well.
`the idealist era`. . this would have preceded the era of guru dutt films would it not? guru dutt movies to me have always been about shattering the ideal.

i don`t know how big a fan following dharmendra has in pakistan. when indian movies were reintroduced to pakistan in our homes via television and vcr`s in the early to mid 70`s, i was between the older generation that admired dilip kumar, raj kapoor and dev anand, and my own which couldn`t quite decide between shashi kapoor, rajesh khanna and the emerging bachchan. never heard much about dharmendra. as a teenager, i, myself, was a huge khanna fan. i suspect that there may have been those who watched the pre-sholay dharmendra in movies like `naya zamana` and `aankhen` and `dost` (i don`t recall seeing anumpama on television), but that he didn`t become very popular until after sholay.

and i haven`t been too impressed with sunny. the few movies i`ve seen him in, he seemed quite wooden as an actor.

I think Dharmendra the actor has always been a class act. His early movies, Bandini and Phool aur Pathar are highly recommended here to a generation of interactors whose parents were probably born or may have been pre-teens, around the time these movies hit the screen. This would be best called the ``idealist`` era. The music from Bandini, my personal b&w favourite classic, is still fresh today.

Subsequently he moved into action and/or comedy which is also something I like.

Now he is an elected MP, from Bikaner, and reports on his campaign style suggest that he has not lost his touch.

To answer rahul/120, I like it when interacts at chowk move into information exchanges between people who would otherwise launch into pissing competitions.

Does Dharmedra have a big fan following in Pakistan? I am told his son, Sunny Deol, does.

OK, I haven`t seen Satyakam, I will. I suspect the character played by Dharmendra dies in the end? Then there was Aankhen with Mala Sinha singing `milti hai zindagi main mohabbat..` And how about Blackmail? And that song with Rekha in another movie `arey rafta rafta dekho aankh meri laDi hai`. He was best when he wasn`t only yelling in a torn shirt, but showing some soulful restraint as well :).

Good to know there was a connection in this somewhere with Veeresh :).

#105 by kaurasach on June 21, 2004 9:34am PT

[Just a thought, are Rekha and Sri Devi beautiful without the make up and lights?]

Its not about makeup, color, or lights, or we wouldn`t have Kajol, Bipasha Basu, and Sheetal Mallar rule our imaginations. Ever heard of the word `dusky beauty`?

rahul,

well at least we`re not throwing racist slurs and making anti-sikh jokes as the one jang did in #115. and chowk article response boards are all about digression. i`m sure veeru paaji will not mind our slight digression. :)

guys since we turned this board into Dharmendra Unplugged, I wonder what the other Veeru paaji (Veeresh) will have to say about this?

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do any of us ever read the little blurb on top of the box:

We encourage all to participate in discussions. All we ask you to be is civil. If your post includes words or masked references that are offensive, crude, repugnant, or obscene, your post will be duly deleted. We thank you for your participation.

no, i don`t think so. and our posts don`t get duly deleted either. too bad some of us can`t see what is offensive and repugnant. . .

I too liked Dharmendra`s pre-sholay films - the ones I mostly saw. I think that he was the favourite of Rishikesh Mukerjee in those days. Yes, Satyakam and Anupama were really good, with that haunting Hemant Kumar song - Ya dil ki suno duniya walo, ya mujh ko yunhi chup rehne do.

OK here is a mathematical anti-sikh slur

what are Surds? Irrational (numbers).

and the songs in anupama are great as well. :).

but truly dharmendra was boss in both those movies. and in the ones he had cameos in like khamoshi and guddi. :) and now i`m wanting to see all these movies all over again!

#70 by sadna

Dharam is harrasing poor dogs in bikaner? I am sure Maneka Gandhi will raise objections in parliament.

sadna #119
oh yeah i like that a lot too..
there is a beautiful cameo by shashikala too in Anupama rite?
but no nothing beats satyakam for me.his idealism is so casual as if it is the most natural thing to do ..just like riding a bicycle, which he does a lot in this movie.

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rahul_capri #109
And how about Anupama. In the end, the hero has lost his job, quarreled with heroine`s father and has to return to his village because his ventures have failed and yet he is victorious. The movie was extremely well written, that goes without saying, but Dharmendra holds it all together.

#108 nooralain that is the one.
To my mind, the best Dharmendra movie ever made.
And then there is Khamoshi, in which he is never shown fully.

rahul capri. . .

i didn`t mention quite a few movies. is satyakam the one with sharmila tagore? is it the one where dharmendra is seen as a `misfit` because of his commitment to the truth and his conscience? i`ve seen that movie more than once, and like it very much.

as for -``Hector kutte mai tera khoon pi jaoonga!!`` LOL

kaurasach #105
My statement was made in jest, unlike yours`. I have absolutely no interest in whether certain Tamilian women conform to certain Punjabi men`s standards of beauty.

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nooralain,sadna
You guys are Dharmendra fans?And you did not mention Satyakam? Shame on you.
By the way, I saw Troy recently and thought that it was basically a remake of Mughale Azam in Punjabi with a lot of Punjab da puttars thrown in.Veeru Paji or sunny paji would have fit in very well in the role of Achiles.Imagine-``Hector kutte mai tera khoon pi jaoonga!!``

#66 by jang on June 18, 2004 2:32pm PT

[is it because she is fair and madrassis must have a fair maiden on the screen (needless to say that fair maidens are far and few south of deccan)?]

For every Simran, there is a Rekha, Hema Malini, or Sridevi. Remember, these ladies ruled Bollywood for several years, long before Simran or Khushboo were even conceived.

Not here to score points. Just want to correct you. On this North-South thing going on here, my personal opinion is I like attractive girls, whether they`re Kashmiri, Punjabi, Tamilian or Malayali is besides the point. Just imagine how drab life would be if I as a Tamilian had only Tamil girls to ogle at ;-)

veeresh ji: ``And yes, hellhound/82 using the ignore button is something I learnt while bringing up the babies . . .`` -- so u do admit you`re a grandfather, albeit of the rabidly anti pakistan variety??

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veeresh: ``Barring a couple of urban centres, fact remains that most of Pakistan seems to be stuck in some sort of time warp. That`s the honest truth, and the big reason for this situation in Pakistan is that painting India as an enemy is the easiest way for their establishment to divert the attention of their own deprived people. (Establishment means the combination of military, mullah, media, feudal, informer and others)`` --

wah wah shri veeresh jee kya 100 per cent drivel bolee hai aap nay -- acha btw shrink kay appointment ka kya hua??? kub hai? un jaldee say dikha hee dalein ?? we in pakistan will pray for u -- btw copies of your comments are being sent to vinod mehta veeresh jee -- :) hhahaaha -- dont worry jee, just kidding jee -- i think everyone can see for themselves how `accurate` your walkabout visit to pakistan was jee --

veeresh jee, nikki jee, harish jee, gujju jee, shrimati sadna jee et. al -- aap kay desh mein yeh bhi hota hai -- kitna afsos na jee ...


BJP stands by Modi

NEW DELHI, June 20: India`s opposition Hindu nationalists on Sunday shot down renewed calls to dismiss Gujarat`s hardline leader, who is accused of abetting anti-Muslim violence in the western state.

``There is no proposal to change the leadership of Gujarat at this juncture,`` Venkaiah Naidu, president of the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), told reporters after a meeting of top party leaders in New Delhi.

Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi had come under fresh scrutiny after police said they gunned down four Muslims, including a 19-year-old woman, last Tuesday because they allegedly plotted to assassinate the state leader.

India`s ruling Congress party has suggested that the shootout was a set-up to build sympathy for Modi and demanded an impartial probe. Former prime minister Atal Behari Vajpayee, breaking with his party`s longstanding backing of Modi, said last week that a BJP national meeting set to start on Tuesday in Mumbai would consider replacing the Gujarat leader.

Vajpayee also said for the first time that anti-Muslim riots in Gujarat, which left 2,000 people dead in 2002, contributed to the BJP`s upset election defeat in April-May elections.

But Vajpayee`s remarks led hardliners to rally around Modi, who had been facing calls for his resignation even from some BJP lawmakers in Gujarat. Vajpayee took part in Sunday`s BJP meeting, which was seen as an attempt to clear up intra-party disputes instead of airing them publicly at the Mumbai convention. -AFP

nikki,

Punjabis grow wherever they are planted. It is difficult to find such entrepreneurial spirit in any other people (not only in India but throughout the world). The joke in U.P. is ``aloo aur sardar duniya mein har jagah paaye jaate hain`` (Surds and punjus are used interchangeably). Definitely, they are very emotional.

I don`t believe in the crap of Punjus or North-West people being some `martial` race. This is in vogue since British days; `phirangs` loved to propagate this myth for their own benefit. Initially, they recruited people from Bengal. But, they found that they were too closely knit in the existing power structures (hence labelled ‘quarrelsome’ and ‘unreliable’). Revolts were frequent and politicization of forces high. OTOH, North-West was governed as a principality from Delhi; people were less intertwined in the power structures and had less at stake in the Delhi `durbaar`. The concepts of martial, materialistic, and spiritual ET used in conjunction with race is one of those old tired clichés that have been discredited beyond redemption. What better way to start the analysis than Indian army - the Mahaar regiment, the Madras regiment and Bihar regiment are all staffed from people who are not `martial` races. The mighty Mauryas, Guptas, Chauhans and Mughals were not from NW (Mughals being Turkicized Mongols).

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[.how are we giving away our ages??]

noori...
you don`t want entire chowk population to know about your and sadna`s ages... do you?...

HP/68 and others . . . just by way of input, I think, increasingly, as the world we can see changes on our sub-Continent (internet, open; television and other media, open subject to mind bending; air travel, open with document restrictions, sea travel, almost imposible, land travel, close to impossible) . . . increasingly, within the lovely masses, it is tradition and not loyalty that counts.

History is a lie anyway, rapidly evolving to try to suit King of the Day.

So, who has loyalties to anything other than Mother`s cooking?

Think about it.

And yes, hellhound/82 using the ignore button is something I learnt while bringing up the babies . . .

sadna:

it was my pleasure. :)


khamkhwa:

haan tau bol. . .how are we giving away our ages??? jaldi jaldi (mimicking you). and your age vaisay ka vaisay hi hai. bilkul nanha sa bachcha. . .*releasing fist and flicking fingers a la kajol in k3g* !!!!

nooralain #85
I looked it up, that movie is Dost, have not seen it though.

I keep telling anyone who will listen that Dharmendra has been around much longer than big B and has succeeded as hero in the entire gamut of genres from purely romantic, to social-themed, to old-fashioned adventure, to way-out costume drama, to genuine comedy, to modern action. Thank you for listening :).

khamkhwa #87
Living in an almost entirely nonHindi region of India, I saw these movies on TV only after Indian TV went national in the mid-late 80s. The local cinemas had long before decided to safeguard local movie industry and show only those Hindi movies which were absolutely superhits.

intekhaab...

khamkhwa:

lagta hai ke agar mujhe panga kisi se lena ho tau tum se hi lena paRega!!! and i don`t know ghalib as well as you do. so there!

noori and sadna...

you two are giving away your ages ...like ghalib said..

shairoN ke intekhaan ne ruswa kiya mujhe...;)

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sadna #84.

i agree with you on preferring the older movies of Dharmender. really like anupama and chupke chupke. . .did you like `naya zamana`? that was pre Big B also wasn`t it? and that movie that has that song, `gaaDi bula rahi hai. . .` is it dost, or dosti or something like that? :)

My #70 was just jousting for madrasis. And lets hear no more on that topic or I will bring up Rekha as well :).

Waisey, I have always been the odd person out because unlike most everyone, I have always preferred Dharmendra to the big B. Not Dharmendra in the big B days, but the pre-big B Shola aur Shabnam, Anupama, Aankhen and Chupke Chupke days.

Veeresh jee:

i like the ignore button!

HP
You never hesitate to throw a fire cracker amongst the monkeys, do you? :D

ahmedzai,
I am not into ethinic fights or clashes I am against it , but some facts should be `sorted out and presented there should be someone to reply hp and I decided to reply this time`
as Punjabis are concerned they are as good Pakistanis as Urdu speakings,Baluchis and Phatans are -- the poor Punjabi is still bullyed by Zamindars and Chaudrys , the poor Sindi is tortured by a Wadera -- ( I know some of them , the servents of Wareda`s (landlord) can often not speak you all know why? there tounge are cut by the land lords so they don`t tell outsiders there domestic secrets and family life. So, what I mean is we should all realize the facts and remember one thing ` our real enemies are extremists and black sheeps like hp`

HP, labyrinth and Maryam:

I have read some responses. After reading HP`s post # 68, one can unfortunately but very safely hurl the same allegations on you as you did on Veeresh in your earlier post.

The current Government of Pakistan draws its support from PML, MQM and former PPP stalwarts (many people claim that MMA should also be included in this list as the `B` team). It goes to prove that all ethnicities are adequately represented and are striving to make Pakistan economically, socially and militarily a strong country of 140 million people.

As humans, we will be much better off avoiding posting ethno-centered hate posts and subsequently replying to the hate material.

#68 by HP on June 18, 2004 3:13pm PT

YOU HAVE SHOWN YOUR TRUE COLOUR -something I which was bound to happen --
as far as Pakistan is concern - you could not even imagine what it means to us -- Its best to ignore your comments --
secondly as my family is concerned -- I will tell you something
my great grandfather was a Judge in British India
my grandfather is a rtd. Lt.Gen and has been a Core Commander
my father and mother are noth PHd`s .. from a reputed university in US and now
running theer own business and teaching `biotech in Karachi`
families doesn`t matter -- its `what we do matters, and what people of urdu speaking families / memon speaking/ are still giving and had been giving to Pakistan is what matters not to you but to us -- I know hundreds of families who migarted frmo India just for the love of Pakistan --they were richiest of the peopel -- something you won`t understand -- as for being `landless` are concerned .. come to Karachi and Hyderabad `we own it now `

Gujjubani/76, well, I would like to answer your question in some detail, and in return, may I request you to rationalise some of your interacts here?

You need to consider that some level of equalisation of inertia levels is essential between neighbours. I mean, USA could not have been what it is without a Canada to the North of it, right?

As on date, my feedback impressions of Pakistan have been toned down somewhat, this is still only a written presentation, and the typical squeaks have begun reaching levels slightly higher. I am waiting to see what people will say when the movie version by a friend hits the circuit . . . as I keep telling people, the big difference to start with is to see the stark variation in live shots taken between Amritsar-Attari and Lahore-Wagah . . . if we can keep the almost 57 year old and loud wails of the ``Hai Mera/Saadaa Lahore`` types from blocking out all other sensory perceptions.

Barring a couple of urban centres, fact remains that most of Pakistan seems to be stuck in some sort of time warp. That`s the honest truth, and the big reason for this situation in Pakistan is that painting India as an enemy is the easiest way for their establishment to divert the attention of their own deprived people. (Establishment means the combination of military, mullah, media, feudal, informer and others)

So, towards trying to change that, since Pakistan now seems to have a multiple group of enemies none of whom are India, we in India need to work on better relationships with Pakistan. And the one big ticket there is simply economic. Cheaper 2-wheelers from India (at one-third the current price), cheaper buses (half), kick-starting local small enterprises. Win-win for all, except Mr. Fat Cat living off the feudal system in Pakistan.

Now when we state this, one loud minority screams about being patronised. But guess what, there is this silent majority in Pakistan too, and they quite like the idea of a better standard of living, if possible, and damn where it came from.

That`s my picture.

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nb/73 - well, ``rule the world`` means I don`t want to be apologetic as a people anymore. I also don`t want to be arrogant, either. I just want us to know that we are capable and content, as a people.

That`s how I define ``rule the world``.

I mean, let me put it this way, the UK-Ireland conflict, the Basque separatists, the USA-Cuba stand-off, the Innuit as a world people from 4 countries, the division of spoils from the Antarctic, the issues behind freedom of the Seas as controlled by the dominant Navies of the world . . . these have been around and are dangerous for the rest of the world too, right? So why is it that we as Indians & Pakistanis don`t get involved in being part of reconciliation for them?

``Rule the world`` means somehow India and Pakistan have to resolve issues themselves.

Veeresh, just a thought-what do you want to rule the world for? I`d be quite happy for India to just be left in peace.

HP/50 . . . no sir, your feelings are not correct.

Chowk Staff - post 58 was not by me.

jang #66
Let us know why a nice Punjabi boy er stud er father of stud like Dharmender had to go and marry a beautiful madrasi like Hema Malini?

btw did you know why the dogs of Bikaner are anemic? Because their MP Shri Dharmender keeps shouting, `kuttey mein thera khoon pi jaaonga`

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Chowk Editors re #59
please wake up. This is altogether disgraceful.

#64 by labyrinth1 on June 18, 2004 2:32pm PT
reply to maryamm


No! I am not against Mohajir or Urdu speaking at all. Actually I don’t think they matter in my life very much.
Btw, Can you tell me why Mohajir live in Pakistan and dream of India all the time and then call themselves true Pakistani and sometime the only true Pakistani in Pakistan?

And look at your brothers and sisters in India, They live in India but think of Pakistan all the time. I am confused as to where your loyalties are?
Me Jealous of landless people. I just take pity at you. Roots, loyalty is not mohajir’s middle name.
Keep dreaming that you are Pakistani first. You are actually nothing first and Indian second. Your parents came to Pakistan because they could not compete with anybody.
After that fake and bogus education from Aligarh university, who would have hired them in India any way.

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reply to maryamm ....I am proud to be Pakistani as Pakistan has given us `dignity and pride and a new world to progress` I have been to India and seen what the muslims of India still thinks about India in UP and Delhi -- Pakistan is still a `heaven` but about HP`s remarks he`s one of those `persons who seems to be against Muhajirs aka Urdusepakings if not certainly looks as us rather `jelously and thanks to you and people like you MQM is popular` -- I still think people of Karachi vote for MQM as a alternative because most of them dont have any option they dont want Jamat-e-Islami to come into power.
As regards for MQM`s opinions are concerned `they are better then other`s atleast we represent middle class and are proud to be most educated and moderate of all Pakistanis`

I always thought the degree of quarrelsomeness depended on the humidity of the climate. So Tamilians and Keralites are hotheaded, Kannadigas and SOME Maharashtrians are relatively peaceful. Dunno about N. Indians, though I am one.

why does a nice punjabi girl like simran act in madrassi films? is it because she is fair and madrassis must have a fair maiden on the screen (needless to say that fair maidens are far and few south of deccan)?

stuka, pls yaar, dont spoil the fun.

``I think this debate about Punjabee versus Madrasi is just disgusting.
Sridhar ``

I agree. Heck, when I come across debates on North versus South, I end up arguing for South Indians in the sense that they have achieved literacy levels and economic growth comparable to south east Asia.

OTOH, it is ridiculous to compare Punjab to UP, Bihar etc coz per capita income in Punjab is one of the highest whereas in the Bimaru states it is lowest. It is certainly not Punjab or Haryana that ascts as a drag on Indian economic growth.

Abey Sridhar

Didn`t you read my note that my post was meant for Nikki specifically??? Did u read his/her post about Punjus????

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skept:
``why would anyone want to annihilate shias particularly other than someone who`s mentally retarded? `` well i guess if the mentally retarded arent shia, then they can live! or no, since the shia mentally retarded have no way of ``uplifting`` their community, perhaps they can live

But religion has EVERYTHING to do with it...when you say maybe Sunnism has nothing to do with it, I guess youre unaware of the likes of Sipah Sahaba, LashkareJhangvi and their sister organizations that are essentially Wahabbi Sunni organizations. Once again, I dont think people like you or moderate Sunnis should be lumped up with these bigots, but to deny the fact that these killers are killing in the name of religion is hypocritical dont you think? These organizations have actually accepted their role in the killing of shias, moreover the people arrested last week for shia killings in Karachi also belonged to these ``banned`` outfits.
This has not happened overnight. This goes back to Zia`s time and the state has much to do with it. But when people like Jamali say ``these killers arent muslims`` something youre echoing, its just sad..

``Faithism``...i dont know..i dont think you can give academic names to these things. This is wrong and its prosecution, and its killing. yes it is very much like racism and yet so much more

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re:#40 by stuka
``Actually the people who do belong in cages are these Madrasis. when they stuff their black faces with rice using their hands, I am reminded of Langoors actually.``
Next time i stuff my hand with rice, i will save some from you.
And, BTW, did not all of human race evolve from Langoors? I thought you knew that. Your behavior does confirm my suspicions though.
Sridhar

Stuka #40:

``..I am reminded of Langoors actually. ``

That was totally uncalled for. What have the Langoors ever done to you?

#47 by hellbound on June 18, 2004 10:20am PT
”Foot in the mouth disease:”

My feeling is that Veeresh tends to make up stuff on the fly. I seriously doubt that he met any body more than a couple of Cab drivers while in Pakistan. He may have met a few Pakistanis on ships. He lacks the simple ability to analyze and understand the background of the people he meets.

He is a typical newspaperman that are found aplenty in Pakistan and India. This genre mostly is not well educated and is highly opinionated. Their know-it-all attitude makes them contradict themselves repeatedly.

I also think he posts after a couple of simla pegs in hot Delhi nights. In his drunken stupor in the evenings, he forgets what he wrote in the morning.


Niki!!
Stay the course!!

I have some more gems about Punjabis. Will post them soon.

re:#39 by harish_hyd
Agree with u entirely.
One thing people easily forget. Imagine how many thousands of Punjabee refugees invaded Delhi soon after partition. My gradfather, who lived in Delhi then, would say that the refugees had one policy at that time: beg, borrow or steal. Being an innovative and hard working people, they did not take time to settle down (compare this with the Pundits from Kashmir or the Tibetan refugees in India or even the Bangladeshis scattered around the country).

One incident my grandpa narrated is etched in my memory. There was this refugee outside his house. He wanted some water to drink. As my grandpa went to fetch water, the refugee walked away with a new sewing machine that grandpa had bought and which was in full view. Soon, the refugee could be seen stiching clothes for others and making a living in the neighbourhood! That sums up the Punjabi enterprise in nutshell. When my grandpa learnt about it, he just felt happy that the sewing machine was being put to good use!

I have seen refugees in my neighbourhood prosper slowly but surely. Many of my Punjabi friends (one of them visited my parents recently in Madras) have moved into business and are doing well. You will not find punjabees complain about govt not doing much. They just do not depend so much on the govt (unlike the Biharis, Bengalis or even Madrassis).
And, when was the last time u saw a Punjabi beg in the streets in India?

Today, majority of students getting into medicine, engineering in Delhi are punjabees. The younger generation are just outperforming Madrasis, and everyone else.
I think this debate about Punjabee versus Madrasi is just disgusting.
Sridhar

re:#32 by satyamvada
I think u are right!
It dawned on me too. Too late. I have given a befitting reply that should make this Nikki moron come to his/her senses.
Sridhar

re:#27 by nikki7777
What is the matter? Afraid to come into the open? Do u even know who your father is or is that a 777 (one less 7 there, for, i guess he would be less moronic than you are).
Sridhar

re:#19 by nb
You may want to get one thing clear. There is a difference between Indian Punjabis and their Paki counterparts. The latter, i concede, are a scum.
Sridhar

Nikki: I am a racist. HAHA!! Rich, coming from you. Are you going to burn yourself alive when Jayalalitha loses the next election???

more power to nikki...

HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA;)

Foot in the mouth disease:

Consider the following as a classic case for Foot in the Mouth disease case study:

{Some of my best friends, in those days, were Pakistani seafarers. (Why they simply could not play 3-pattee or flash well is an endearing mystery to this day, though.)

HP/01 - on 3-pattee and Pakistanis, the one reason that I can think of is that the Pakistani shippie was, often, still getting the hang of booze, so after a while, started mis-judging the odds with low cards or kept going blind when others had strong ``open`` hands.

HP/1 and labrytnth1/18 . . . actually the Pakistanis I knew at sea in the `80s were of all sorts, and included standard issue Pakistanis, Goan Catholic Pakistanis, Parsee Pakistanis and Pakistanis who thought they were Arabs till we were all not allowed to go ashore in Dammam regardless after which they too became standard issue Pakistanis. Regardless, we Indians won a lot in 3-pattee, and after some time we stopped playing because it was not fair, and in any case there was a war going on outside.}

Ijaz and Omar:

The key to reading the above pearls of wisdom by Veeresh is to look for key words, like ``fair` (being an Indian virtue), `win` (any comments on this virtue will get Stuka all worked up so I will refrain from doing that), ``misjudging`` (reference to the Pakistani mindset), cultured (booze being the barometer), and the best part is the reference to a multi-cultural Pakistanis getting a taste of their own medicine when they got sobbered up after being denied a passage to Dammam.

Now consider this:

teen pattee or flush was in vogue in the early and mid-seventies...aunties used to play this when we were barely three foot tall. In mid-seventies, flush or teen pattee was the most favored game in most of the boarding schools, including, Pataro (sp) (which produced most of the merchant marines), Hassan Abdal, Lawerence College, and so on and so forth. Kid in these colleges used to play flush with chaar anna boot when the salary of a gazzetted officer was merely 400 or 500 rupees a month. I wonder what kind of ppl sailed with Veeresh sahib?

To Veeresh sahib:

I have checked with two merchant marines, Tahir Anwar and Amjad Rashid (both have consented to BE QUOTED, your contemparies) and they vehemently deny your claim of Pakistanis inability to play flush or their inability to handle liquor!

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Foot in the mouth disease:

Consider the following as a classic case for Foot in the Mouth disease case study:

{Some of my best friends, in those days, were Pakistani seafarers. (Why they simply could not play 3-pattee or flash well is an endearing mystery to this day, though.)

HP/01 - on 3-pattee and Pakistanis, the one reason that I can think of is that the Pakistani shippie was, often, still getting the hang of booze, so after a while, started mis-judging the odds with low cards or kept going blind when others had strong ``open`` hands.

HP/1 and labrytnth1/18 . . . actually the Pakistanis I knew at sea in the `80s were of all sorts, and included standard issue Pakistanis, Goan Catholic Pakistanis, Parsee Pakistanis and Pakistanis who thought they were Arabs till we were all not allowed to go ashore in Dammam regardless after which they too became standard issue Pakistanis. Regardless, we Indians won a lot in 3-pattee, and after some time we stopped playing because it was not fair, and in any case there was a war going on outside.}

Ijaz and Omar:

The key to reading the above pearls of wisdom by Veeresh is to look for key words, like ``fair` (being an Indian virtue), `win` (any comments on this virtue will get Stuka all worked up so I will refrain from doing that), ``misjudging`` (reference to the Pakistani mindset), cultured (booze being the barometer), and the best part is the reference to a multi-cultural Pakistanis getting a taste of their own medicine when they got sobbered up after being denied a passage to Dammam.

Now consider this:

teen pattee or flush was in vogue in the early and mid-seventies...aunties used to play this when we were barely three foot tall. In mid-seventies, flush or teen pattee was the most favored game in most of the boarding schools, including, Pataro (sp) (which produced most of the merchant marines), Hassan Abdal, Lawerence College, and so on and so forth. Kid in these colleges used to play flush with chaar anna boot when the salary of a gazzetted officer was merely 400 or 500 rupees a month. I wonder what kind of ppl sailed with Veeresh sahib?

To Veeresh sahib:

I have checked with two merchant marines, Tahir Anwar and Amjad Rashid (both have consented to BE QUOTED, your contemparies) and they vehemently deny your claim of Pakistanis inability to play flush or their inability to handle liquor!

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I find this Punjab-Madras debate laughable. Reminds me of the graduation days where the most common conversation topic is derision of each other`s states.

Anyways, since we are in this silly exercise, my 2 cents:

I think both Punjabis and Tams are a drag on India and here`s why:

Punjabis are loud mouthed, aggressive while Tams are snobbish and look down upon other regions

Punjabi made their cuisine synonymous with North Indian food (what the hell happened to the other regions) while Tams try to do the same to South Indian fool (though off late the other cuisines in South are giving Tams a run for their money)

Both Punjab and TamilNadu at different points of time want to seperate from India.

Both are lower riparian states but behave as if they own those rivers

Both supported British during 1857 war of Independence.


Cheers,
Avkrishna

P.S: Veeresh, I should say your other articles are better than this one. Nevertheless, it`s a great pleasure reading your travelogues. Waiting for the next one.

NHK/13, you are right Sir, and I am aware of some very interesting developments on co-existence lately, just hope the usual vested interests don`t damage the process again.

Rahulmal/16 . . . the evening at the opera and Islamabad Club kind of matched what my Pakistani friends used to talk about, Pakistan in the `80s or so, before Zia`s initiatives and the USA/USSR excursions. I was trying to place a connect here on the relationship between the changing world stage, the changing Pakistani stage and the opera stage. On technicalities of opera, never mind, this was actually a very solid classic rock musical with about the best acoustics I have heard in our part of the world lately. I was lucky enough to discuss this with the technical guys there, and hope to carry a separate article on that someday . . . obviously Bose Corp is popular in Pakistan too, but then I am going get hit on the head variously if I speak about a Bengali engineer based out of Massachussets?

takhta-ginee/17 . . . canoodling was on in the lawns between the Islamabad Club auditorium and the Club Road fence. Canoodling is very much alive and doing well in India too, which city do you wish to know about?

HP/1 and labrytnth1/18 . . . actually the Pakistanis I knew at sea in the `80s were of all sorts, and included standard issue Pakistanis, Goan Catholic Pakistanis, Parsee Pakistanis and Pakistanis who thought they were Arabs till we were all not allowed to go ashore in Dammam regardless after which they too became standard issue Pakistanis. Regardless, we Indians won a lot in 3-pattee, and after some time we stopped playing because it was not fair, and in any case there was a war going on outside.

My previous post was meant specifically for Nikki. Other South Indians pls ignore the post.

Dost Mittar:

`` Right away, I would grant you that we panjabis are a very emotional people and embrace each other as easily as we cut throats.``

HAHAHA...THIS IS RICH. A Punjabi explaining to a Tambi that we are emotional people.

We are not the ones who commit suicide when some stupid leader fails to win an election or dies. How many of the Tamils burned themselves when MGR died. I have never heard of Punjabis opening temples and praying for film stars. But the Madrasis sure do it. They have temples for Khushboo.

As far as barbarism is concerned, I think the LTTE is far more barbaric then anything out of northwestern India or Pakistan.

Actually the people who do belong in cages are these Madrasis. when they stuff their black faces with rice using their hands, I am reminded of Langoors actually.

As a Tamilian with Punju friends both Hindu and Sikh, I have a very different opinion of Punjabis as opposed to Nikki. Agreed, what happened in Punjab in the 80s and early 90s was not something that can be easily forgotten, but the fact remains that Punjabis are as Indian as anyone else and as patriotic, if not more, as the rest of us. They *are* the lifeline of the Indian Army. So many have made the supreme sacrifice for the country that one loses count. There is a moving slideshow on Capt. Vikram Batra (incidentally a Punjabi), the lion of Kargil on rediff.com. Those who have some spare time may please go through it. And who can forget the legendary Bana Singh, (the only living Paramvir Chakra winner before the Kargil war) who spearheaded India`s counterattack in the Siachen Glacier, and consquently India`s domination of the icy heights. Nikki would do well if he stops thinking on regional lines.

Stukay:

This is what you wrote:

{HAHA. Good one dude. Tthere was a Pakistani Lt Gen Talat Masood who made the case that the reason Pakistan was in much worse shape then India was because the Punjabis were the majority there whereas they were diluted in India by other ethnic groups.}

Lt. Genearl Retired Talat Masood is considered to be an ``expert`` analyst on matter related to defense and national security, and appears regularly in pirnt and visual media in that capacity.

Does it make any sense now? If not, then so be it! :)-

Dear Punjus from either side of border,

A question in the lighter vein - what do Punjus have with bottle? I`ve seen people from all other regions drink to their satisfaction and other`s consternation, but none gained the kind of reputation that you guys have :-)

Is there something in the ``sohni dharti`` that encourages these binges?

o kaya hee baataan nay veeresh ji.

jay ik wari aaye ho tay phair vi aanday raho.

dhair saari mohabataan day naal,

mubashir

OK, time for responses . . . and right off the bat, please, there is no derision in my articles or posting . . . one does not viciously taunt neighbours but yes, one does exchange notes as well as go through a fair bit of truth . . . and in this case the neighbours are people who are PLUS only.

So. Also, I am going to ignore the Punjabi taunting going on, because.

HP/01 - on 3-pattee and Pakistanis, the one reason that I can think of is that the Pakistani shippie was, often, still getting the hang of booze, so after a while, started mis-judging the odds with low cards or kept going blind when others had strong ``open`` hands.

Kaurasuch/02 - this episode is more like the interval. Yes, as it goes on, it gets, how do we put it, more realistic?

DM/06 - how does one figure out they are snoops? Well, (a) they were visibly out of place and over the years one gets the inner tip-offs, and (b) there was a Pakistani who was with the Indian journos who indicated and (c) read the next episode/s please!

Jang/07 - the actress who played Carlotta is the daughter of the Sri Lankan High Commissioner to Pakistan. Yes, the Sri lankan presence in the Merchant Navy was and is quite high. Natural sailors with a great ability to produce documentation as required . . .

nikki7777/08 - I have great respect for Tamilians and thus have never been able to figure out how such an otherwise erudite and intelligent race can get stuck with a political system which swings wildly, goes to war on water and language with neighbouring states and, most of all, can not see the mote in its own eyes. Interim, to quote your words, would you choose to give us a short brief on ```` hate, religious bigotry, violence, narrow mindedness and communalism ```` in context with the Tamil situation across the Palk Straits?

Dost-Mitter # 29

Interesting...

(the partition was the result primarily of the three gujeratis - Gandhi, Jinnah and Patel - and an allahabadi Nehru not being able to work out a reasonable compromise between them;
- a south indian, Rajaji, was the first to agree to the partition proposal;)

Khizer hayat`s (from Sargodha) Unionist Party and good old traditional Pathans like Bacha Khan opposed it - the vernacular Urdu media have hounded them since - and even after 56 years, some stigma remains.

The Ulema-e-Hind also opposed it which is now in the shape of MMA. The clever Mullas have not only adopted the cause but given it their very own interpratation.

Punjabis can only be accused of a little short on supply of high culture like the UP/CP wallas. Or not being mentally as sharp as the South Indians.

But they never had to strive as hard like the rest. Plenty of river water and fertile lands got them into the easy mode of Hookas and plenty of lazing around.

They are also simpletons and tend to easily become tools of others - the British pumped them up with titles like the `Warrior` or `Martial Race` and got them slaughtered in the Second world War.

Neatly followed by 65, 71 & Kargil.

#27 by nikki7777

I did not know you will take up the cudgel so fast.

I am with you a 100%.

We south Pakistani (sindhi and Baloch)and South Indians can live peacefully if these punjoos are removed from the middle.
We have had enough of this breed in Pakistan. They are good for nothing. They can’t even fight right. Always get beat.
If we put them away, we can have a united India in no time.

Folks,

WARNING: nikki777 is a troll

Notice how he brought in sikhs/kashmiris to bash.

Any Indian would be foolish to fall for it.

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I noticed that Nikki007 have turned secular.
FEw weeks ago she started by attacking sikhs only.....now she is attacking all Punjabis. wow. what an evolution.

Dear Nikki7777:
I did not want to get into this controversy. Right away, I would grant you that we panjabis are a very emotional people and embrace each other as easily as we cut throats. We are also somewhat of `daggas` (mules) who let other exploit our emotions and lit the fires which make us burn while they enjoy the spectacle. However, others are not blameless. Let me remind you that:
- the riots in India started in Bengal`s Calcutta and were the result of the call of a direct action by a gujerati;
-the partition was the result primarily of the three gujeratis - Gandhi, Jinnah and Patel - and an allahabadi Nehru not being able to work out a reasonable compromise between them;
- a south indian, Rajaji, was the first to agree to the partition proposal;
-the decision to divide panjab was also taken by non-panjabis;
-as stuka pointed out, the wars were not started by panjabis;
-and as far as the regional mess in india is concerned; it all started with a telgu named Romulu undertaking a suicidal fast to divide people along linguistic lines; followed by gujeratis, marathis and others; panjab was the last to be divided on that basis;
-the language fights were started by the hindiwallahs and tamilwallahs; the tamilians went to the extent of immolating themselves to avoid the implementation of the linguistic provisions of the constitution (and we thank you for that!); and
-the first secessionist movement started in the south.

Even at chowk, panjabis are by and large the least hateful posters on the Indian side. On the pakistani side, they are the overwhelming majority of the posters and so are also the majority of hateful posters.

I am sure that you can come up with some examples to prove your point as well. My point is that there is no point in indulging in the blame game. Indians can be proud that they have been able to develop a pan indian identity. You can now get idli and dosa almost everywhere in panjab and you can also find panjabi dhabas all over india including in the south. Let`s celebrate what we have accomplished instead of fighting useless battles. Thanks!

Veeresh,
A beautifully written piece.Though the information in the prologue was a bit too much to digest for me in the first read(:-)), I really enjoyed the opera ka scene n then the ``have u been entered `` joke, (though thoda overkill kar diya aapne usme). The description was very vivid and your enthusiasm of travelling was evident in every line.

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`` The country boat costs 3 rupees. (6 cents). Live ducks in bags travel free, unless they quack, in which case a levy of 50 paise per beak applies, added to the bill. ``

I liked this sentence best, though don`t know what it is doing in this narrative.

As for the rest, I am more interested in what is the next article. I am curious too about people who mysteriously do not sleep on pavements.

I can think of another possible reason, that Pakistan`s undocumented economy is stronger than Pakistan`s documented economy indicates.

If so, hopefully the Army will realise it can take out an even bigger share of the national cake if the economy is bigger, not just with high finance jugglery and Army domination of business interests, but by making a larger number of people productive within the documented economy`s ambit.