Careless Consciences

satish: ``#271 by satish on June 29, 2004 6:45am PT
Omar

Thanks for your explanation. Though I`d expect, when you change the base point, for the data for the previous years to change as well, so that you could calculate a growth rate realistically. But presumably it was not done in this case. Well, as long as it is clear thats what was done....

Thanks once more.

Satish``

satish till last reports came in i wasnt working at the ministry of finance, but still bothered to answer you, dude as i pointed out earlier, the rebasing was done because certain services which are available in pakistan these days did not even exist when the national accounts system was put into effect -- that would seem pretty obvious to an economist, i.e. a rebasing would be needed --

#272 by harish_hyd on June 29, 2004 6:45am PT
#269 by satish

Looks as though Omar mian doesn`t have a cogent reply to your question, so he`s referring you to the Finance Ministry`s website. Of all places, the Finance Ministry??? That`s where all the doctoring first starts.

pundit harish jee -- i suppose that would be true for the Indian Finance ministry as well then? ``doesnt have a cogent reply`` ??? hahaha - pundit harish is obviously no need student of economics ....

A bit of news...

A recent report says that external affairs minister, Natwar Singh, has not been discussing important issues with the PM. Is such devolution of power desirable? Does not the image a country portrays of itself to the outside world have an impact on its self-perception? What about the security issues? Are we going to have two centres of power yet again? Wondering...

``FYI Indians too use some rough benchmarks, such as ownership of telephone, car, house, etc. to bring people into the tax net. ``

all these trigger is that a tax return must be filed. so the equivalence is tenuous.

AlephNull:
``Recall that Pakistan is a country where they try to levy import duty on bara markets (selling smuggled goods) based on size of shop/number of rolling shutters, and income tax based on electricity consumption, etc. There may be little meaningful input data to use as a basis for any kind of reliable national economic statistics, never mind doctoring the ‘real’ numbers.``

...good for them! Illegal activities are not exempt from taxation; so how do you estimate a smuggler`s income except through some crude benchmarks. FYI Indians too use some rough benchmarks, such as ownership of telephone, car, house, etc. to bring people into the tax net.

satish #271

{{when you change the base point, for the data for the previous years to change as well, so that you could calculate a growth rate realistically}}

You are letting ‘satyam eva jayate’ go to your head. Your implicit assumption is that figures such as GDP growth rate are actually meant to provide some meaningful objective information for economic planners, businessmen, investors, multilateral lending institutions, etc.

Pakistani government institutions and press mostly appears to operate under the different assumption that objective reality can be manipulated by altering perception. It’s all a big PR exercise. The Pakistan Finance Ministry’s intention is more likely to provide a set of arbitrary numbers to hoodwink the unwary. They habitually finagle their figures – it’s simply on a larger scale this time around. For an account of past jugglery (lowering baselines to infalte growth figures, etc.), see the following from a year ago:

What ‘lies’ beneath

harish_hyd #272

{{the Finance Ministry??? That`s where all the doctoring first starts.}}

Actually it’s not just ‘doctoring’. Recall that Pakistan is a country where they try to levy import duty on bara markets (selling smuggled goods) based on size of shop/number of rolling shutters, and income tax based on electricity consumption, etc. There may be little meaningful input data to use as a basis for any kind of reliable national economic statistics, never mind doctoring the ‘real’ numbers.

Omar

Thanks for your explanation. Though I`d expect, when you change the base point, for the data for the previous years to change as well, so that you could calculate a growth rate realistically. But presumably it was not done in this case. Well, as long as it is clear thats what was done....

Thanks once more.

Satish

#269 by satish

Looks as though Omar mian doesn`t have a cogent reply to your question, so he`s referring you to the Finance Ministry`s website. Of all places, the Finance Ministry??? That`s where all the doctoring first starts.

first of all, satish, perhaps you should know that when country`s quote gdp growth rate figures they normally are speaking in nominal terms and not real terms -- hence the population rate bit can be ignored -- gdp grew by 24 per cent because the finance ministry shifted the basis of the national accounts from 1981 to 1999 -- it said this was necessitated by the fact that certain services which are now an integral part of pakistans economy did not exist way back in 1981 -- the two most obvious ones are cell phones (pakistan has over 4 million, almost as many as the land lines numbers and growing up over 50-6- every year -- and will probably grow more than that because lots of private players entering the field and govt taxes have been halved in this budget) and the other is internet connections -- and by the way satish if this doesnt satisfy you then try the finance ministry`s website at www.finance.gov.pk

#264 by Faruk on June 26, 2004 5:33pm PT
Re: omar_r_quraishi # 259

“the law is that if u must have a witness then you should have four -- otherwise there are other ways to prove rape, the usual being medical examination of the rapist and the victim and people are sent to jail for that -- the problem is that the does not differentiate between consensual intercourse and actual rape -- now that is unfortunate shri dharma jee but these kind of legalistic anomalies can be found in other third world countries”

The problem is much bigger Omar. With the adoption of zina laws part of the Hadood Ordinances, fornication became a crime against the state and along with adultery, made non-compoundable , non-bailable and punishable by death. Moreover, the legal definition of zina blurs the line between adultery, fornication and rape. For the purpose of the ordinance, zina is defined as ``sexual intercourse without being validly married.`` Zina-bil-jabr, rape, is defined as ``sexual intercourse without being validly married`` when it occurs without consent. Legally this means that if it cannot be proved that sex occurred without consent (rape), the sex itself becomes a crime against the state. Zina laws allow for greater control of women within state sanctioned interpretations of the sacred books of Islam.

You are offended by people who point out these abominable laws. It would be a lot better for you and Pakistan if you directed your energies to changing these laws.

Regards,

Faruk

errr why should i ``direct my energies`` anywhere faruk ???? who got offended, dharma asked a simple enough question and i asked him a simple enough question -- as for the hudood laws not differentiating between consent and force that is precisely what i had said myself faruk


dharma: ``Now a days you can find new found confidence in lower
caste members because they realized power in numbers. Look at lalloo prasad.
yadavs are shudra class just one rung above the harijan. And he is likely to be PM
someday. It is the lower caste people that have power and privileges in india.`` --
acha jee how enlightening -- thank you very much dharma jee


ralphie boy: ``Nooralain gave you a good understanding of how Islam treats rape. The Assistant editor of Dawn told you what he wanted you to know. Now, it is again my thankless lot to supplement the account. If I wanted to be politically correct, I would keep quiet. But I have no reputation to protect. So here you are, my friend.
Islam, and by extension the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, truly recognizes a woman`s rape only if the rapist raped the woman in the presence, or at least knowledge, of 4 MUSLIM men. These Muslims have not only to be present, they must also have good eyesight, so they actually witness the man penetrate the woman. At night, it probably means that these good four Muslims need to be carrying torches and lights, and are able to shine those lights at the right spot at the right time.
That implies if I was a Pakistani, or if you were a Pakistani, and Muslim men barged into our houses at night and raped our sisters and mothers, Muslims will not recognize that as rape irrespective of what we might have ourselves witnessed. Similarly, and I hope this never happens, if Nooralain visits her much beloved country and if 4 Muslim men gang-raped her at a desolate place, Muslims will not recognize that as rape unless all four of them agree to testify against one another and bring in one additional pious Muslim to stamp his Islamic authority.
Now you may wonder how come Islam and Mohammad, who knew everything worth knowing, couldn`t conceive of medical examinations in this day and age. He must have. For he made the provision that if the raped woman attempts to bring medical proofs, she must establish that she did not consent to being raped. If she cannot establish that, then Islam prescribes that she herself be punished for the Islamic crime of fornication. You see, everything in Islam is logical. Muslim men need steel-clad protection against wrongful accusation even if thousands of raped woman have to suffer the consequence.
Let`s all love Islam and Pakistan where Muslims can live according to their genius. According to a 2001 report, one Pakistani woman is raped every two hours. Discounting those numbers, let`s say one Pakistani woman is raped every four hours.
Ralph, the Bigot ``

ralph, the

---

worker at

---

company, has said something which should be commented on -- ralphie boy -- i wouldnt necessarily call you a bigot but probably someone who doesnt read or comprehend too well -- in my earlier post i have already pointed out that despite the hudood laws there are still other options to try rapists -- and reading the following, seems things in india and pakistan are both bad for rape victims -- if you are a rape victim im pretty sure its bad for you, even if you happen to be in a country like sweden or norway which have probably much more victim-friendly laws -- so lets not pretend or try to imply that pakistan is the only place where things are so bad -- they seem pretty bad in your own backyard too ralphie boy -- that IS the point ralphie boy --

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THE OTHER HALF

Crime and confusion

KALPANA SHARMA




AFP

Can we afford to turn our backs on such issues?

HOW would you, as an Indian woman who has been raped, respond if a senior police official told you, ``Except for a few violent rape cases where brutal force is used, most other cases involve some degree of consensual sex.`` Horrified, appalled, amazed, incredulous? Probably all of these if you realised that this is an exact quote from a senior police officer in Mumbai, Mr. Y.P. Singh, speaking to the Times of India. Where are the statistics to prove Mr. Singh`s point? How has he concluded that ``most`` rape cases involve a degree of consensual sex? What country, or rather planet, is he talking about?

At a time when the graph of violence against women continues to climb, it is tragic that both law enforcers, like Mr. Singh, and lawyers and some sections of the media are determined to undermine the few rights that women victims of violence have won. Predictably, rape is once again in the news not because women continue to be raped in this country but because of one high profile incident — what has come to be known as the WSF (World Social Forum) rape case.

The Times of India in Mumbai ran a story as its page one lead on January 20, 2004, with the headline ``WSF reels as SA judge is held for raping delegate``. The story was replete with unanswered questions. It also violated a basic norm that all respectable newspapers are supposed to follow by mentioning the name of the alleged rape victim. What is more, the headline was misleading as the alleged incident took place in a hotel in South Mumbai while the WSF was being held in a distant northern suburb of the city. Furthermore, the majority of the over 75,000 people at the venue of the WSF had not even heard of this incident, leave alone ``reeled`` from the news. It just happened that both the alleged rapist and the alleged victim were registered as delegates to the WSF.

The case itself was not straightforward. This should have been evident to anyone reporting on the story where the alleged victim apparently went to the room of the alleged rapist at 3.15 a.m. after spending most of the evening with him and others at a nightclub. The alleged rapist is a well-known South African judge. On being charged with rape by his fellow countrywoman, he was remanded to police custody. Subsequently, the alleged victim withdrew her complaint and the judge was released on bail. Both have returned to South Africa and no one quite knows what will happen to the case at this end. We also do not know whether we will ever really know whether the judge was framed, whether he did force himself on the woman, whether the woman had cold feet after willingly going to the judge`s room? These are only some of the many unanswered questions.

That apart, this strange case has yielded a host of statements and articles that seem to suggest that in rape cases, men are the victims. The article quoting Mr. Singh, for instance, bears the headline: ``Rape laws loaded against men, say police and lawyers``. It quotes several leading criminal lawyers claiming that women have misused rape laws to target men and even that they have cried ``rape`` when they are caught in the act.

What is significant is how other ``routine`` rape cases are usually ignored by the very media that made such a big deal out of this one and ran numerous articles on the issue, most of them resulting in confusion in the minds of readers about the real position in law and the facts on the ground about women and rape.

The real story is that the majority of women who are raped are still afraid to report the rape. Those who do, end up being even more traumatised, particularly if they happen to be poor women. If they are lucky enough to find people who will take up their case, then perhaps they can see hope at the end of the tunnel. But even then, as we know from cases like the gang rape of Bhanwari Devi in Rajasthan, there is little hope for justice.

Women`s groups and others concerned with ensuring that the law is not loaded against rape victims have fought for provisions such as the previous sexual conduct of the victim not being brought up during a rape trial. The experience with implementing the existing rape laws has also resulted in provisions that put the onus on the accused to prove his innocence. How does all this add up to the law being ``loaded`` against men? The record of rape cases speaks for itself. There are very few convictions compared to the number of cases.

The job of the media is to inform people about the facts, not to confuse them with statements that cannot be supported by facts. Opinions such as the ones voiced by male police officers and lawyers following the ``WSF rape case`` are not just misinformed but are dangerous because they will encourage men to believe that even as women shout ``no`` they actually mean ``yes``. If the police, who are supposed to implement the law and come to the aid of rape victims, actually endorse views such as those of Mr. Singh, then there is little hope for the victims of violent rape.



E-mail the writer:ksharma@thehindu.co

Re: Omar #234

Thanks for the economic data. Pakistan seems to be doing well economically. Congratulations!

I could not, however, understand the mathematics behind one point. According to the data, Pakistan GDP grew by 6.4% last year. Now, as the population grew by about 2.5-3%, the per capita income should have grown by 106.4/102.5 ~ 4%. The data claims it grew by 12%. What gives? Am I missing something here? On the other hand, if per capita GDP grew by 24% in last two years, then with a 5% increase in population, the economy should have grown by about 15% per year. I dont see any record of that.

Could you please try to explain this discrepancy?

dharma,

i`m not exactly certain how you involved farzana in the gross violations of basic human rights in saudi arabia and pakistan because i`ve stopped reading what continue to be personal attacks. but i was trying nevertheless to understand what you are saying. i am not clear on why farzana has to be vocal about an ordinance, a law that does not apply to her country. farzana is indian, remember? not pakistani. and if she does not speak out against the treatment of women in saudi arabia? in pakistan, does that automatically make her an apologist for those who commit such atrocities? what have you been stuck on all this time?

Well my logic is simple. this is a forum for discussing indo-pak issues. And logically
we should focus on the biggest problems first before attacking simpler ones. While
there are most glaring examples of human rights violations in pakistan, why are
we focusing on human rights violations in kashmir. When i say kashmiris are pampered
they are asking for rights which noone in the world have. Even if majority of californians
want to separate from US, i am sure it is close to impossible. That too on a flimsy basis
like religion. And farzana focuses on issues that are above and beyond the basic rights
while keeping quite on the violation of basic rights. I never saw her condemn pakis
and saudis on any issues while codemning hindus for sneezing loud. That is double
standards that i despise. Be consistent, logical. Maybe she is consistent and logical
with some inner person. Maybe she is a closet mullah. In that case bring it out
without fear like urstruly. I respect that. Dont pretend to be something you are not.

Nooralain

Perish the thought indeed that you be put to any harm. That`s the reason I deliberately mentioned our sisters and mothers first.

I don`t know if Islam makes men more likely to rape certain types of women or not. I was discussing what happens legally when a woman is raped.

Ralph,

the statistics you`ve provided about women being sexually assaulted do not apply to pakistan alone, nor do they apply to muslim countries alone. . .and i`m not defending pakistan when i say that. i`m saying that you needn`t say that as if that is the only place where it happens.

and since you seem to know what would happen to me if i was to be gang-raped, yes perish the thought indeed, i thought i`d provide you with this bit of information as well to add to your `knowledge` given that i am a non-muslim. it is from the book women of pakistan: two steps forward, one step back in their introduction i believe. . .and this refers to the hudood ordinance.

while the ordinance raises numerous questions, our concern here is those affecting women specifically. firstly, by prescribing that there must be four muslim male adults as eyewitnesses, it excludes the testimony of women altogether for hadd. even from the quranic specifications this can be faulted for the words of the Qur`an say `four believers from amongst you` and does not specify the gender of the witnesses. the use of the male gender in this instance is the same as used for addressing an audience of both sexes in the Qur`an. either one has to concede that witnesses can be both male or female or accept the untenable and absurd position that 80 per cent of the injunctions of the Qur`an exempt women. furthermore the evidence of non-muslims is not acceptable unless the victims or the accused are also non-muslims. inversely, muslims cannot testify against non-muslims.. . .

dharma,

i`m not exactly certain how you involved farzana in the gross violations of basic human rights in saudi arabia and pakistan because i`ve stopped reading what continue to be personal attacks. but i was trying nevertheless to understand what you are saying. i am not clear on why farzana has to be vocal about an ordinance, a law that does not apply to her country. farzana is indian, remember? not pakistani. and if she does not speak out against the treatment of women in saudi arabia? in pakistan, does that automatically make her an apologist for those who commit such atrocities? what have you been stuck on all this time?

Re: omar_r_quraishi # 259

“the law is that if u must have a witness then you should have four -- otherwise there are other ways to prove rape, the usual being medical examination of the rapist and the victim and people are sent to jail for that -- the problem is that the does not differentiate between consensual intercourse and actual rape -- now that is unfortunate shri dharma jee but these kind of legalistic anomalies can be found in other third world countries”

The problem is much bigger Omar. With the adoption of zina laws part of the Hadood Ordinances, fornication became a crime against the state and along with adultery, made non-compoundable , non-bailable and punishable by death. Moreover, the legal definition of zina blurs the line between adultery, fornication and rape. For the purpose of the ordinance, zina is defined as ``sexual intercourse without being validly married.`` Zina-bil-jabr, rape, is defined as ``sexual intercourse without being validly married`` when it occurs without consent. Legally this means that if it cannot be proved that sex occurred without consent (rape), the sex itself becomes a crime against the state. Zina laws allow for greater control of women within state sanctioned interpretations of the sacred books of Islam.

You are offended by people who point out these abominable laws. It would be a lot better for you and Pakistan if you directed your energies to changing these laws.

Regards,

Faruk

#260 by Ralph
ralph, thanks for your clarifications. I wonder why farzana is keeping quiet
when such gross violations of basic human rights occur in pakistan and saudi arabia,
where as giving her full support to some esoteric rights like ``right to your own country``.
When people dont have right to sunlight and basic dignity why think about own countries.
Everyone would like own countries. I want one too. but lets talk about basic freedoms
first and then go there where everyone is thier own country.

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