Careless Consciences
Farzana Versey June 15, 2004
#261 Posted by dharma on June 26, 2004 9:59:13 am
#258 by omar_r_quraishi
dharma: I have a question, could you help me? Is rape legal in india if done by someone from the high caste against a low caste woman, esp if done in a wheat field? I heard that from someone and you know I could not believe it. He said if you dont do it in a crowd of 3 or more it is perfectly legal.
Dharma could you shed some light on this please? Is this true dharma???
omar ji, indian laws dont depend on your caste. With the feuadal way of life
a distant memory in most parts of India, being higher caste does not carry
the privilege it used to. Now a days you can find new found confidence in lower
caste members because they realized power in numbers. Look at lalloo prasad.
yadavs are shudra class just one rung above the harijan. And he is likely to be PM
someday. It is the lower caste people that have power and privileges in india.
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#260 Posted by Ralph on June 26, 2004 9:09:11 am
Dharma
Nooralain gave you a good understanding of how Islam treats rape. The Assistant editor of Dawn told you what he wanted you to know. Now, it is again my thankless lot to supplement the account. If I wanted to be politically correct, I would keep quiet. But I have no reputation to protect. So here you are, my friend.
Islam, and by extension the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, truly recognizes a woman`s rape only if the rapist raped the woman in the presence, or at least knowledge, of 4 MUSLIM men. These Muslims have not only to be present, they must also have good eyesight, so they actually witness the man penetrate the woman. At night, it probably means that these good four Muslims need to be carrying torches and lights, and are able to shine those lights at the right spot at the right time.
That implies if I was a Pakistani, or if you were a Pakistani, and Muslim men barged into our houses at night and raped our sisters and mothers, Muslims will not recognize that as rape irrespective of what we might have ourselves witnessed. Similarly, and I hope this never happens, if Nooralain visits her much beloved country and if 4 Muslim men gang-raped her at a desolate place, Muslims will not recognize that as rape unless all four of them agree to testify against one another and bring in one additional pious Muslim to stamp his Islamic authority.
Now you may wonder how come Islam and Mohammad, who knew everything worth knowing, couldn`t conceive of medical examinations in this day and age. He must have. For he made the provision that if the raped woman attempts to bring medical proofs, she must establish that she did not consent to being raped. If she cannot establish that, then Islam prescribes that she herself be punished for the Islamic crime of fornication. You see, everything in Islam is logical. Muslim men need steel-clad protection against wrongful accusation even if thousands of raped woman have to suffer the consequence.
Let`s all love Islam and Pakistan where Muslims can live according to their genius. According to a 2001 report, one Pakistani woman is raped every two hours. Discounting those numbers, let`s say one Pakistani woman is raped every four hours.
Ralph, the Bigot
Nooralain gave you a good understanding of how Islam treats rape. The Assistant editor of Dawn told you what he wanted you to know. Now, it is again my thankless lot to supplement the account. If I wanted to be politically correct, I would keep quiet. But I have no reputation to protect. So here you are, my friend.
Islam, and by extension the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, truly recognizes a woman`s rape only if the rapist raped the woman in the presence, or at least knowledge, of 4 MUSLIM men. These Muslims have not only to be present, they must also have good eyesight, so they actually witness the man penetrate the woman. At night, it probably means that these good four Muslims need to be carrying torches and lights, and are able to shine those lights at the right spot at the right time.
That implies if I was a Pakistani, or if you were a Pakistani, and Muslim men barged into our houses at night and raped our sisters and mothers, Muslims will not recognize that as rape irrespective of what we might have ourselves witnessed. Similarly, and I hope this never happens, if Nooralain visits her much beloved country and if 4 Muslim men gang-raped her at a desolate place, Muslims will not recognize that as rape unless all four of them agree to testify against one another and bring in one additional pious Muslim to stamp his Islamic authority.
Now you may wonder how come Islam and Mohammad, who knew everything worth knowing, couldn`t conceive of medical examinations in this day and age. He must have. For he made the provision that if the raped woman attempts to bring medical proofs, she must establish that she did not consent to being raped. If she cannot establish that, then Islam prescribes that she herself be punished for the Islamic crime of fornication. You see, everything in Islam is logical. Muslim men need steel-clad protection against wrongful accusation even if thousands of raped woman have to suffer the consequence.
Let`s all love Islam and Pakistan where Muslims can live according to their genius. According to a 2001 report, one Pakistani woman is raped every two hours. Discounting those numbers, let`s say one Pakistani woman is raped every four hours.
Ralph, the Bigot
#259 Posted by omar_r_quraishi on June 26, 2004 7:38:14 am
nikki: ``on BLATANTLY ANTI-INDIA forums such as this one, to the authorities in india``
hahahahhaha
dharma: I have a question, could you help me? Is rape legal in india if done by someone from the high caste against a low caste woman, esp if done in a wheat field? I heard that from someone and you know I could not believe it. He said if you dont do it in a crowd of 3 or more it is perfectly legal.
Dharma could you shed some light on this please? Is this true dharma???
hahahahhaha
dharma: I have a question, could you help me? Is rape legal in india if done by someone from the high caste against a low caste woman, esp if done in a wheat field? I heard that from someone and you know I could not believe it. He said if you dont do it in a crowd of 3 or more it is perfectly legal.
Dharma could you shed some light on this please? Is this true dharma???
#258 Posted by omar_r_quraishi on June 26, 2004 7:38:14 am
dharma: ``Well by definition they dont consider it a rape if 4 men did not witness it. So rape
as is usually defined in most countries is legal in pakistan. What pakistan defines
as `rape` Most people call it gangrape for if 4 men witnessed it and did not do anything
they might as well have participated in it for all the good that did.`` -
- no dharma jee -- the law is that if u must have a witness then you should have four -- otherwise there are other ways to prove rape, the usual being medical examination of the rapist and the victim and people are sent to jail for that -- the problem is that the does not differentiate between consensual intercourse and actual rape -- now that is unfortunate shri dharma jee but these kind of legalistic anomalies can be found in other third world countries --
as is usually defined in most countries is legal in pakistan. What pakistan defines
as `rape` Most people call it gangrape for if 4 men witnessed it and did not do anything
they might as well have participated in it for all the good that did.`` -
- no dharma jee -- the law is that if u must have a witness then you should have four -- otherwise there are other ways to prove rape, the usual being medical examination of the rapist and the victim and people are sent to jail for that -- the problem is that the does not differentiate between consensual intercourse and actual rape -- now that is unfortunate shri dharma jee but these kind of legalistic anomalies can be found in other third world countries --
#257 Posted by arjun_m on June 26, 2004 7:38:13 am
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#256 Posted by dharma on June 26, 2004 12:16:30 am
noorlain writes:
in order for a woman to make a case that she was raped, it is required that 4 men (of good repute) have witnessed the horrific event. please note 4 men. .not women, and men of good repute at that.
Well by definition they dont consider it a rape if 4 men did not witness it. So rape
as is usually defined in most countries is legal in pakistan. What pakistan defines
as `rape` Most people call it gangrape for if 4 men witnessed it and did not do anything
they might as well have participated in it for all the good that did.
in order for a woman to make a case that she was raped, it is required that 4 men (of good repute) have witnessed the horrific event. please note 4 men. .not women, and men of good repute at that.
Well by definition they dont consider it a rape if 4 men did not witness it. So rape
as is usually defined in most countries is legal in pakistan. What pakistan defines
as `rape` Most people call it gangrape for if 4 men witnessed it and did not do anything
they might as well have participated in it for all the good that did.
#255 Posted by Ashutosh_Gandhi on June 25, 2004 8:01:27 pm
Antar awaaz also could mean gut feeling and not inner voice. Inner voice means conscience and thats different from gut feeling. While sure you would like to pick on that statement by ABV but its wrong.
According to many indians there is no difference between Hindutva or Bhartiyata. It has always been the policy of BJP not to appease any particular caste or religion. Trying to court minorities during the election was not wrong neither was it against Hindutva. If one looks at HIndutva after taking off their green glasses then one could espouse it to patriotism or nationalism. I highly doubt people will be against it but its always possible to find exceptions.
No indians is ignoring ills in their back yard. Some people are trying to prove your thoughts nothing to be more than anti-Hindu as you believe that killing of Hindus in Kashmir, Godhra, Marad and Bangladesh is perfectly okay while killing of Muslims in Gujarat, Palestian are genocide.
Indians always welcomed ABV ideas of talking with Hurriyat or Pakistan even though these people supported killings of innocent in Kashmirs. Similarly Indians welcome MMS calling for talks with Hurriyat.
Having said its enough in Marathi by ABV could be joke. Probably it is. I hope ABV has right to joke as FV has enjoys the rights given by Indian Constitution.
According to many indians there is no difference between Hindutva or Bhartiyata. It has always been the policy of BJP not to appease any particular caste or religion. Trying to court minorities during the election was not wrong neither was it against Hindutva. If one looks at HIndutva after taking off their green glasses then one could espouse it to patriotism or nationalism. I highly doubt people will be against it but its always possible to find exceptions.
No indians is ignoring ills in their back yard. Some people are trying to prove your thoughts nothing to be more than anti-Hindu as you believe that killing of Hindus in Kashmir, Godhra, Marad and Bangladesh is perfectly okay while killing of Muslims in Gujarat, Palestian are genocide.
Indians always welcomed ABV ideas of talking with Hurriyat or Pakistan even though these people supported killings of innocent in Kashmirs. Similarly Indians welcome MMS calling for talks with Hurriyat.
Having said its enough in Marathi by ABV could be joke. Probably it is. I hope ABV has right to joke as FV has enjoys the rights given by Indian Constitution.
#254 Posted by Ashutosh_Gandhi on June 25, 2004 8:01:27 pm
FV said:
Well after this article appeared, Mr. Vajpayee on 24th talked about his inner voice in clear terms! For those who made a hue-and-cry about my motives for questioning what was questionable, there have now been articles and editorials about ABV crying wolf, always talking about leaving, sulking etc etc...and to imagine that such a ``tall leader`` is now telling us that a lot of what he said was a joke?? And you people blame me!
So Mr. ABV cannot make a joke that was spoken in Marathi.
Also, your statement marked in bold clearly shows your hatred toward people who dont have similar ideas as you. Having disagreement is different than hate. I hope you find peace with yourself as hate is not going to get you anywhere.
Well after this article appeared, Mr. Vajpayee on 24th talked about his inner voice in clear terms! For those who made a hue-and-cry about my motives for questioning what was questionable, there have now been articles and editorials about ABV crying wolf, always talking about leaving, sulking etc etc...and to imagine that such a ``tall leader`` is now telling us that a lot of what he said was a joke?? And you people blame me!
So Mr. ABV cannot make a joke that was spoken in Marathi.
Also, your statement marked in bold clearly shows your hatred toward people who dont have similar ideas as you. Having disagreement is different than hate. I hope you find peace with yourself as hate is not going to get you anywhere.
#253 Posted by nooralain on June 25, 2004 5:06:26 pm
dharma,
rape is not `legal` in pakistan, or i should hope anywhere else in the world. it is definitely not legal in private. but the word `legal` has been a rather iffy one in pakistan.
according to the law as it still stands right now. . .a law that women`s and `human rights` groups have been fighting for years. . .in order for a woman to make a case that she was raped, it is required that 4 men (of good repute) have witnessed the horrific event. please note 4 men. .not women, and men of good repute at that. given that this does not take place, there are women who have been found guilty of adultery, rather than robbed of their `izzat`.
there have been cases where this has been the exception, where the law has been in the favor of the woman, but justice has been hard to come by because the perpetrators and the family of said perpetrators want to make a `compromise` with money, rather than punishing the man. as if money can make up for the shame and suffering the woman goes through.
i thought it best that a `paki` try to shed some light on this issue for you. hope this helps, and you might add it to your wealth of negative thoughts, impressions you may have of us `pakis`. thanks.
rape is not `legal` in pakistan, or i should hope anywhere else in the world. it is definitely not legal in private. but the word `legal` has been a rather iffy one in pakistan.
according to the law as it still stands right now. . .a law that women`s and `human rights` groups have been fighting for years. . .in order for a woman to make a case that she was raped, it is required that 4 men (of good repute) have witnessed the horrific event. please note 4 men. .not women, and men of good repute at that. given that this does not take place, there are women who have been found guilty of adultery, rather than robbed of their `izzat`.
there have been cases where this has been the exception, where the law has been in the favor of the woman, but justice has been hard to come by because the perpetrators and the family of said perpetrators want to make a `compromise` with money, rather than punishing the man. as if money can make up for the shame and suffering the woman goes through.
i thought it best that a `paki` try to shed some light on this issue for you. hope this helps, and you might add it to your wealth of negative thoughts, impressions you may have of us `pakis`. thanks.
#252 Posted by nikki7777 on June 25, 2004 3:02:47 pm
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#251 Posted by ankit on June 25, 2004 12:10:14 pm
typical FV behavior on display here on chowk now..
first stoke the fire with all kinds of communal spins.
then take the backseat for a few days and enjoy chowkies slog it out here with each other.
come back and play the victim with the well rehearsed `` i am indian...i follow the law... i have the right to differ and to point out issues.. blah blah..``
we have seen all this before, havent we?
and dost mittar saheb. we talked about arvind and francis. where do you place farzana, she is a neutral observer, isnt she?
first stoke the fire with all kinds of communal spins.
then take the backseat for a few days and enjoy chowkies slog it out here with each other.
come back and play the victim with the well rehearsed `` i am indian...i follow the law... i have the right to differ and to point out issues.. blah blah..``
we have seen all this before, havent we?
and dost mittar saheb. we talked about arvind and francis. where do you place farzana, she is a neutral observer, isnt she?
#250 Posted by dost_mittar on June 25, 2004 12:01:47 pm
dharma, satyamvada:
I went throught the article again and still did not see anything in support of slavery in the islamic societies.
I went throught the article again and still did not see anything in support of slavery in the islamic societies.
#249 Posted by dharma on June 25, 2004 11:03:39 am
farzana writes:
``If one wants to split hairs, then it is also possible to see those who weep for the ills in S. Arabia while ignoring what happens in their own backyard as hypocrites too. But then one does not want to split hairs... ``
So by your logic pakis should not care about kashmiri muslims, palestinians, chechenyans, and others as they have their handsful with internal problems. I would look forward
for you taking this stand in your interactions on chowk. Otherwise you would be a
proven hypocrite. Pleas advise the pakis to stick to their internal problems.
Question to chowkies:
Is rape legal in pakistan if done in private? I heard that from someone and I could
not believe it. He said if you dont do it in a crowd of 4 or more it is perfectly legal.
Can anyone shed some light on this? thanks.
``If one wants to split hairs, then it is also possible to see those who weep for the ills in S. Arabia while ignoring what happens in their own backyard as hypocrites too. But then one does not want to split hairs... ``
So by your logic pakis should not care about kashmiri muslims, palestinians, chechenyans, and others as they have their handsful with internal problems. I would look forward
for you taking this stand in your interactions on chowk. Otherwise you would be a
proven hypocrite. Pleas advise the pakis to stick to their internal problems.
Question to chowkies:
Is rape legal in pakistan if done in private? I heard that from someone and I could
not believe it. He said if you dont do it in a crowd of 4 or more it is perfectly legal.
Can anyone shed some light on this? thanks.
#248 Posted by nb on June 25, 2004 9:29:29 am
No, all those who do not have issues with you do not feel sorry for you!!! (you`d have 1.2 billion minus several thousand people feeling sorry for you-bit much for anyone). It was Omar who talked about how people here were treating you, and he did sound sorry for you. As I said, you can look after yourself...you may be a number of things, but never weak. :)
#247 Posted by FarzanaVersey on June 25, 2004 6:49:39 am
A few points...
1. PM Manmohan Singh has categorically stated (today`s TOI) that he will hold talks with the Hurriyat and other groups regarding the J& K issue.
Will he be termed unpatriotic? Is he selling off his country by doing so?
2. I live in India and its Constitution applies to me. I have certain rights and certain duties...I make use of the first and try to fulfill the other to the best of my ability. I do not live off its freedom; I use it to bring up issues that i think need to be brought out in the open, just as those who do not agree with me do so...if anything I should be seen to stand out as an example, not as a sore thumb. The fact that some misguided individuals believe otherwise makes me wonder whether they are as progressive and liberal as they claim to be.
3. If one wants to split hairs, then it is also possible to see those who weep for the ills in S. Arabia while ignoring what happens in their own backyard as hypocrites too. But then one does not want to split hairs...
4. nb: Does the fact that an individual does not have issues with me naturally translate into that person feeling sorry for me? (I find it terrible to imagine anyone feeling sorry for me.)Omar has never interacted on my board before nor I on his...but from your initial interactions with him, it is obvious that you have. Both of you do not project your personal grouses on me. I think we should let this rest. At least there are more people who do seem to have issues with me, anyway.
1. PM Manmohan Singh has categorically stated (today`s TOI) that he will hold talks with the Hurriyat and other groups regarding the J& K issue.
Will he be termed unpatriotic? Is he selling off his country by doing so?
2. I live in India and its Constitution applies to me. I have certain rights and certain duties...I make use of the first and try to fulfill the other to the best of my ability. I do not live off its freedom; I use it to bring up issues that i think need to be brought out in the open, just as those who do not agree with me do so...if anything I should be seen to stand out as an example, not as a sore thumb. The fact that some misguided individuals believe otherwise makes me wonder whether they are as progressive and liberal as they claim to be.
3. If one wants to split hairs, then it is also possible to see those who weep for the ills in S. Arabia while ignoring what happens in their own backyard as hypocrites too. But then one does not want to split hairs...
4. nb: Does the fact that an individual does not have issues with me naturally translate into that person feeling sorry for me? (I find it terrible to imagine anyone feeling sorry for me.)Omar has never interacted on my board before nor I on his...but from your initial interactions with him, it is obvious that you have. Both of you do not project your personal grouses on me. I think we should let this rest. At least there are more people who do seem to have issues with me, anyway.
#246 Posted by ballukhan on June 25, 2004 6:35:45 am
...continued from my previous post
`evaluate` the impact of riots from the number of lives lost on the street.
It is not about religion anymore- but about neo-fascism in the garb of religiousity which demands worldly benefits from the omnipotent because temporal power is supposed to be promised by the omnipotent to its followers.
`evaluate` the impact of riots from the number of lives lost on the street.
It is not about religion anymore- but about neo-fascism in the garb of religiousity which demands worldly benefits from the omnipotent because temporal power is supposed to be promised by the omnipotent to its followers.
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