Careless Consciences

satish: ``#271 by satish on June 29, 2004 6:45am PT
Omar

Thanks for your explanation. Though I`d expect, when you change the base point, for the data for the previous years to change as well, so that you could calculate a growth rate realistically. But presumably it was not done in this case. Well, as long as it is clear thats what was done....

Thanks once more.

Satish``

satish till last reports came in i wasnt working at the ministry of finance, but still bothered to answer you, dude as i pointed out earlier, the rebasing was done because certain services which are available in pakistan these days did not even exist when the national accounts system was put into effect -- that would seem pretty obvious to an economist, i.e. a rebasing would be needed --

#272 by harish_hyd on June 29, 2004 6:45am PT
#269 by satish

Looks as though Omar mian doesn`t have a cogent reply to your question, so he`s referring you to the Finance Ministry`s website. Of all places, the Finance Ministry??? That`s where all the doctoring first starts.

pundit harish jee -- i suppose that would be true for the Indian Finance ministry as well then? ``doesnt have a cogent reply`` ??? hahaha - pundit harish is obviously no need student of economics ....

A bit of news...

A recent report says that external affairs minister, Natwar Singh, has not been discussing important issues with the PM. Is such devolution of power desirable? Does not the image a country portrays of itself to the outside world have an impact on its self-perception? What about the security issues? Are we going to have two centres of power yet again? Wondering...

``FYI Indians too use some rough benchmarks, such as ownership of telephone, car, house, etc. to bring people into the tax net. ``

all these trigger is that a tax return must be filed. so the equivalence is tenuous.

AlephNull:
``Recall that Pakistan is a country where they try to levy import duty on bara markets (selling smuggled goods) based on size of shop/number of rolling shutters, and income tax based on electricity consumption, etc. There may be little meaningful input data to use as a basis for any kind of reliable national economic statistics, never mind doctoring the ‘real’ numbers.``

...good for them! Illegal activities are not exempt from taxation; so how do you estimate a smuggler`s income except through some crude benchmarks. FYI Indians too use some rough benchmarks, such as ownership of telephone, car, house, etc. to bring people into the tax net.

satish #271

{{when you change the base point, for the data for the previous years to change as well, so that you could calculate a growth rate realistically}}

You are letting ‘satyam eva jayate’ go to your head. Your implicit assumption is that figures such as GDP growth rate are actually meant to provide some meaningful objective information for economic planners, businessmen, investors, multilateral lending institutions, etc.

Pakistani government institutions and press mostly appears to operate under the different assumption that objective reality can be manipulated by altering perception. It’s all a big PR exercise. The Pakistan Finance Ministry’s intention is more likely to provide a set of arbitrary numbers to hoodwink the unwary. They habitually finagle their figures – it’s simply on a larger scale this time around. For an account of past jugglery (lowering baselines to infalte growth figures, etc.), see the following from a year ago:

What ‘lies’ beneath

harish_hyd #272

{{the Finance Ministry??? That`s where all the doctoring first starts.}}

Actually it’s not just ‘doctoring’. Recall that Pakistan is a country where they try to levy import duty on bara markets (selling smuggled goods) based on size of shop/number of rolling shutters, and income tax based on electricity consumption, etc. There may be little meaningful input data to use as a basis for any kind of reliable national economic statistics, never mind doctoring the ‘real’ numbers.

Omar

Thanks for your explanation. Though I`d expect, when you change the base point, for the data for the previous years to change as well, so that you could calculate a growth rate realistically. But presumably it was not done in this case. Well, as long as it is clear thats what was done....

Thanks once more.

Satish

#269 by satish

Looks as though Omar mian doesn`t have a cogent reply to your question, so he`s referring you to the Finance Ministry`s website. Of all places, the Finance Ministry??? That`s where all the doctoring first starts.

first of all, satish, perhaps you should know that when country`s quote gdp growth rate figures they normally are speaking in nominal terms and not real terms -- hence the population rate bit can be ignored -- gdp grew by 24 per cent because the finance ministry shifted the basis of the national accounts from 1981 to 1999 -- it said this was necessitated by the fact that certain services which are now an integral part of pakistans economy did not exist way back in 1981 -- the two most obvious ones are cell phones (pakistan has over 4 million, almost as many as the land lines numbers and growing up over 50-6- every year -- and will probably grow more than that because lots of private players entering the field and govt taxes have been halved in this budget) and the other is internet connections -- and by the way satish if this doesnt satisfy you then try the finance ministry`s website at www.finance.gov.pk

#264 by Faruk on June 26, 2004 5:33pm PT
Re: omar_r_quraishi # 259

“the law is that if u must have a witness then you should have four -- otherwise there are other ways to prove rape, the usual being medical examination of the rapist and the victim and people are sent to jail for that -- the problem is that the does not differentiate between consensual intercourse and actual rape -- now that is unfortunate shri dharma jee but these kind of legalistic anomalies can be found in other third world countries”

The problem is much bigger Omar. With the adoption of zina laws part of the Hadood Ordinances, fornication became a crime against the state and along with adultery, made non-compoundable , non-bailable and punishable by death. Moreover, the legal definition of zina blurs the line between adultery, fornication and rape. For the purpose of the ordinance, zina is defined as ``sexual intercourse without being validly married.`` Zina-bil-jabr, rape, is defined as ``sexual intercourse without being validly married`` when it occurs without consent. Legally this means that if it cannot be proved that sex occurred without consent (rape), the sex itself becomes a crime against the state. Zina laws allow for greater control of women within state sanctioned interpretations of the sacred books of Islam.

You are offended by people who point out these abominable laws. It would be a lot better for you and Pakistan if you directed your energies to changing these laws.

Regards,

Faruk

errr why should i ``direct my energies`` anywhere faruk ???? who got offended, dharma asked a simple enough question and i asked him a simple enough question -- as for the hudood laws not differentiating between consent and force that is precisely what i had said myself faruk


dharma: ``Now a days you can find new found confidence in lower
caste members because they realized power in numbers. Look at lalloo prasad.
yadavs are shudra class just one rung above the harijan. And he is likely to be PM
someday. It is the lower caste people that have power and privileges in india.`` --
acha jee how enlightening -- thank you very much dharma jee


ralphie boy: ``Nooralain gave you a good understanding of how Islam treats rape. The Assistant editor of Dawn told you what he wanted you to know. Now, it is again my thankless lot to supplement the account. If I wanted to be politically correct, I would keep quiet. But I have no reputation to protect. So here you are, my friend.
Islam, and by extension the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, truly recognizes a woman`s rape only if the rapist raped the woman in the presence, or at least knowledge, of 4 MUSLIM men. These Muslims have not only to be present, they must also have good eyesight, so they actually witness the man penetrate the woman. At night, it probably means that these good four Muslims need to be carrying torches and lights, and are able to shine those lights at the right spot at the right time.
That implies if I was a Pakistani, or if you were a Pakistani, and Muslim men barged into our houses at night and raped our sisters and mothers, Muslims will not recognize that as rape irrespective of what we might have ourselves witnessed. Similarly, and I hope this never happens, if Nooralain visits her much beloved country and if 4 Muslim men gang-raped her at a desolate place, Muslims will not recognize that as rape unless all four of them agree to testify against one another and bring in one additional pious Muslim to stamp his Islamic authority.
Now you may wonder how come Islam and Mohammad, who knew everything worth knowing, couldn`t conceive of medical examinations in this day and age. He must have. For he made the provision that if the raped woman attempts to bring medical proofs, she must establish that she did not consent to being raped. If she cannot establish that, then Islam prescribes that she herself be punished for the Islamic crime of fornication. You see, everything in Islam is logical. Muslim men need steel-clad protection against wrongful accusation even if thousands of raped woman have to suffer the consequence.
Let`s all love Islam and Pakistan where Muslims can live according to their genius. According to a 2001 report, one Pakistani woman is raped every two hours. Discounting those numbers, let`s say one Pakistani woman is raped every four hours.
Ralph, the Bigot ``

ralph, the

---

worker at

---

company, has said something which should be commented on -- ralphie boy -- i wouldnt necessarily call you a bigot but probably someone who doesnt read or comprehend too well -- in my earlier post i have already pointed out that despite the hudood laws there are still other options to try rapists -- and reading the following, seems things in india and pakistan are both bad for rape victims -- if you are a rape victim im pretty sure its bad for you, even if you happen to be in a country like sweden or norway which have probably much more victim-friendly laws -- so lets not pretend or try to imply that pakistan is the only place where things are so bad -- they seem pretty bad in your own backyard too ralphie boy -- that IS the point ralphie boy --

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THE OTHER HALF

Crime and confusion

KALPANA SHARMA




AFP

Can we afford to turn our backs on such issues?

HOW would you, as an Indian woman who has been raped, respond if a senior police official told you, ``Except for a few violent rape cases where brutal force is used, most other cases involve some degree of consensual sex.`` Horrified, appalled, amazed, incredulous? Probably all of these if you realised that this is an exact quote from a senior police officer in Mumbai, Mr. Y.P. Singh, speaking to the Times of India. Where are the statistics to prove Mr. Singh`s point? How has he concluded that ``most`` rape cases involve a degree of consensual sex? What country, or rather planet, is he talking about?

At a time when the graph of violence against women continues to climb, it is tragic that both law enforcers, like Mr. Singh, and lawyers and some sections of the media are determined to undermine the few rights that women victims of violence have won. Predictably, rape is once again in the news not because women continue to be raped in this country but because of one high profile incident — what has come to be known as the WSF (World Social Forum) rape case.

The Times of India in Mumbai ran a story as its page one lead on January 20, 2004, with the headline ``WSF reels as SA judge is held for raping delegate``. The story was replete with unanswered questions. It also violated a basic norm that all respectable newspapers are supposed to follow by mentioning the name of the alleged rape victim. What is more, the headline was misleading as the alleged incident took place in a hotel in South Mumbai while the WSF was being held in a distant northern suburb of the city. Furthermore, the majority of the over 75,000 people at the venue of the WSF had not even heard of this incident, leave alone ``reeled`` from the news. It just happened that both the alleged rapist and the alleged victim were registered as delegates to the WSF.

The case itself was not straightforward. This should have been evident to anyone reporting on the story where the alleged victim apparently went to the room of the alleged rapist at 3.15 a.m. after spending most of the evening with him and others at a nightclub. The alleged rapist is a well-known South African judge. On being charged with rape by his fellow countrywoman, he was remanded to police custody. Subsequently, the alleged victim withdrew her complaint and the judge was released on bail. Both have returned to South Africa and no one quite knows what will happen to the case at this end. We also do not know whether we will ever really know whether the judge was framed, whether he did force himself on the woman, whether the woman had cold feet after willingly going to the judge`s room? These are only some of the many unanswered questions.

That apart, this strange case has yielded a host of statements and articles that seem to suggest that in rape cases, men are the victims. The article quoting Mr. Singh, for instance, bears the headline: ``Rape laws loaded against men, say police and lawyers``. It quotes several leading criminal lawyers claiming that women have misused rape laws to target men and even that they have cried ``rape`` when they are caught in the act.

What is significant is how other ``routine`` rape cases are usually ignored by the very media that made such a big deal out of this one and ran numerous articles on the issue, most of them resulting in confusion in the minds of readers about the real position in law and the facts on the ground about women and rape.

The real story is that the majority of women who are raped are still afraid to report the rape. Those who do, end up being even more traumatised, particularly if they happen to be poor women. If they are lucky enough to find people who will take up their case, then perhaps they can see hope at the end of the tunnel. But even then, as we know from cases like the gang rape of Bhanwari Devi in Rajasthan, there is little hope for justice.

Women`s groups and others concerned with ensuring that the law is not loaded against rape victims have fought for provisions such as the previous sexual conduct of the victim not being brought up during a rape trial. The experience with implementing the existing rape laws has also resulted in provisions that put the onus on the accused to prove his innocence. How does all this add up to the law being ``loaded`` against men? The record of rape cases speaks for itself. There are very few convictions compared to the number of cases.

The job of the media is to inform people about the facts, not to confuse them with statements that cannot be supported by facts. Opinions such as the ones voiced by male police officers and lawyers following the ``WSF rape case`` are not just misinformed but are dangerous because they will encourage men to believe that even as women shout ``no`` they actually mean ``yes``. If the police, who are supposed to implement the law and come to the aid of rape victims, actually endorse views such as those of Mr. Singh, then there is little hope for the victims of violent rape.



E-mail the writer:ksharma@thehindu.co

Re: Omar #234

Thanks for the economic data. Pakistan seems to be doing well economically. Congratulations!

I could not, however, understand the mathematics behind one point. According to the data, Pakistan GDP grew by 6.4% last year. Now, as the population grew by about 2.5-3%, the per capita income should have grown by 106.4/102.5 ~ 4%. The data claims it grew by 12%. What gives? Am I missing something here? On the other hand, if per capita GDP grew by 24% in last two years, then with a 5% increase in population, the economy should have grown by about 15% per year. I dont see any record of that.

Could you please try to explain this discrepancy?

dharma,

i`m not exactly certain how you involved farzana in the gross violations of basic human rights in saudi arabia and pakistan because i`ve stopped reading what continue to be personal attacks. but i was trying nevertheless to understand what you are saying. i am not clear on why farzana has to be vocal about an ordinance, a law that does not apply to her country. farzana is indian, remember? not pakistani. and if she does not speak out against the treatment of women in saudi arabia? in pakistan, does that automatically make her an apologist for those who commit such atrocities? what have you been stuck on all this time?

Well my logic is simple. this is a forum for discussing indo-pak issues. And logically
we should focus on the biggest problems first before attacking simpler ones. While
there are most glaring examples of human rights violations in pakistan, why are
we focusing on human rights violations in kashmir. When i say kashmiris are pampered
they are asking for rights which noone in the world have. Even if majority of californians
want to separate from US, i am sure it is close to impossible. That too on a flimsy basis
like religion. And farzana focuses on issues that are above and beyond the basic rights
while keeping quite on the violation of basic rights. I never saw her condemn pakis
and saudis on any issues while codemning hindus for sneezing loud. That is double
standards that i despise. Be consistent, logical. Maybe she is consistent and logical
with some inner person. Maybe she is a closet mullah. In that case bring it out
without fear like urstruly. I respect that. Dont pretend to be something you are not.

Nooralain

Perish the thought indeed that you be put to any harm. That`s the reason I deliberately mentioned our sisters and mothers first.

I don`t know if Islam makes men more likely to rape certain types of women or not. I was discussing what happens legally when a woman is raped.

Ralph,

the statistics you`ve provided about women being sexually assaulted do not apply to pakistan alone, nor do they apply to muslim countries alone. . .and i`m not defending pakistan when i say that. i`m saying that you needn`t say that as if that is the only place where it happens.

and since you seem to know what would happen to me if i was to be gang-raped, yes perish the thought indeed, i thought i`d provide you with this bit of information as well to add to your `knowledge` given that i am a non-muslim. it is from the book women of pakistan: two steps forward, one step back in their introduction i believe. . .and this refers to the hudood ordinance.

while the ordinance raises numerous questions, our concern here is those affecting women specifically. firstly, by prescribing that there must be four muslim male adults as eyewitnesses, it excludes the testimony of women altogether for hadd. even from the quranic specifications this can be faulted for the words of the Qur`an say `four believers from amongst you` and does not specify the gender of the witnesses. the use of the male gender in this instance is the same as used for addressing an audience of both sexes in the Qur`an. either one has to concede that witnesses can be both male or female or accept the untenable and absurd position that 80 per cent of the injunctions of the Qur`an exempt women. furthermore the evidence of non-muslims is not acceptable unless the victims or the accused are also non-muslims. inversely, muslims cannot testify against non-muslims.. . .

dharma,

i`m not exactly certain how you involved farzana in the gross violations of basic human rights in saudi arabia and pakistan because i`ve stopped reading what continue to be personal attacks. but i was trying nevertheless to understand what you are saying. i am not clear on why farzana has to be vocal about an ordinance, a law that does not apply to her country. farzana is indian, remember? not pakistani. and if she does not speak out against the treatment of women in saudi arabia? in pakistan, does that automatically make her an apologist for those who commit such atrocities? what have you been stuck on all this time?

Re: omar_r_quraishi # 259

“the law is that if u must have a witness then you should have four -- otherwise there are other ways to prove rape, the usual being medical examination of the rapist and the victim and people are sent to jail for that -- the problem is that the does not differentiate between consensual intercourse and actual rape -- now that is unfortunate shri dharma jee but these kind of legalistic anomalies can be found in other third world countries”

The problem is much bigger Omar. With the adoption of zina laws part of the Hadood Ordinances, fornication became a crime against the state and along with adultery, made non-compoundable , non-bailable and punishable by death. Moreover, the legal definition of zina blurs the line between adultery, fornication and rape. For the purpose of the ordinance, zina is defined as ``sexual intercourse without being validly married.`` Zina-bil-jabr, rape, is defined as ``sexual intercourse without being validly married`` when it occurs without consent. Legally this means that if it cannot be proved that sex occurred without consent (rape), the sex itself becomes a crime against the state. Zina laws allow for greater control of women within state sanctioned interpretations of the sacred books of Islam.

You are offended by people who point out these abominable laws. It would be a lot better for you and Pakistan if you directed your energies to changing these laws.

Regards,

Faruk

#260 by Ralph
ralph, thanks for your clarifications. I wonder why farzana is keeping quiet
when such gross violations of basic human rights occur in pakistan and saudi arabia,
where as giving her full support to some esoteric rights like ``right to your own country``.
When people dont have right to sunlight and basic dignity why think about own countries.
Everyone would like own countries. I want one too. but lets talk about basic freedoms
first and then go there where everyone is thier own country.

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#258 by omar_r_quraishi
dharma: I have a question, could you help me? Is rape legal in india if done by someone from the high caste against a low caste woman, esp if done in a wheat field? I heard that from someone and you know I could not believe it. He said if you dont do it in a crowd of 3 or more it is perfectly legal.

Dharma could you shed some light on this please? Is this true dharma???


omar ji, indian laws dont depend on your caste. With the feuadal way of life
a distant memory in most parts of India, being higher caste does not carry
the privilege it used to. Now a days you can find new found confidence in lower
caste members because they realized power in numbers. Look at lalloo prasad.
yadavs are shudra class just one rung above the harijan. And he is likely to be PM
someday. It is the lower caste people that have power and privileges in india.

Dharma

Nooralain gave you a good understanding of how Islam treats rape. The Assistant editor of Dawn told you what he wanted you to know. Now, it is again my thankless lot to supplement the account. If I wanted to be politically correct, I would keep quiet. But I have no reputation to protect. So here you are, my friend.

Islam, and by extension the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, truly recognizes a woman`s rape only if the rapist raped the woman in the presence, or at least knowledge, of 4 MUSLIM men. These Muslims have not only to be present, they must also have good eyesight, so they actually witness the man penetrate the woman. At night, it probably means that these good four Muslims need to be carrying torches and lights, and are able to shine those lights at the right spot at the right time.

That implies if I was a Pakistani, or if you were a Pakistani, and Muslim men barged into our houses at night and raped our sisters and mothers, Muslims will not recognize that as rape irrespective of what we might have ourselves witnessed. Similarly, and I hope this never happens, if Nooralain visits her much beloved country and if 4 Muslim men gang-raped her at a desolate place, Muslims will not recognize that as rape unless all four of them agree to testify against one another and bring in one additional pious Muslim to stamp his Islamic authority.

Now you may wonder how come Islam and Mohammad, who knew everything worth knowing, couldn`t conceive of medical examinations in this day and age. He must have. For he made the provision that if the raped woman attempts to bring medical proofs, she must establish that she did not consent to being raped. If she cannot establish that, then Islam prescribes that she herself be punished for the Islamic crime of fornication. You see, everything in Islam is logical. Muslim men need steel-clad protection against wrongful accusation even if thousands of raped woman have to suffer the consequence.


Let`s all love Islam and Pakistan where Muslims can live according to their genius. According to a 2001 report, one Pakistani woman is raped every two hours. Discounting those numbers, let`s say one Pakistani woman is raped every four hours.

Ralph, the Bigot

nikki: ``on BLATANTLY ANTI-INDIA forums such as this one, to the authorities in india``

---

hahahahhaha


dharma: I have a question, could you help me? Is rape legal in india if done by someone from the high caste against a low caste woman, esp if done in a wheat field? I heard that from someone and you know I could not believe it. He said if you dont do it in a crowd of 3 or more it is perfectly legal.

Dharma could you shed some light on this please? Is this true dharma???

dharma: ``Well by definition they dont consider it a rape if 4 men did not witness it. So rape
as is usually defined in most countries is legal in pakistan. What pakistan defines
as `rape` Most people call it gangrape for if 4 men witnessed it and did not do anything
they might as well have participated in it for all the good that did.`` -

- no dharma jee -- the law is that if u must have a witness then you should have four -- otherwise there are other ways to prove rape, the usual being medical examination of the rapist and the victim and people are sent to jail for that -- the problem is that the does not differentiate between consensual intercourse and actual rape -- now that is unfortunate shri dharma jee but these kind of legalistic anomalies can be found in other third world countries --

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noorlain writes:
in order for a woman to make a case that she was raped, it is required that 4 men (of good repute) have witnessed the horrific event. please note 4 men. .not women, and men of good repute at that.

Well by definition they dont consider it a rape if 4 men did not witness it. So rape
as is usually defined in most countries is legal in pakistan. What pakistan defines
as `rape` Most people call it gangrape for if 4 men witnessed it and did not do anything
they might as well have participated in it for all the good that did.

Antar awaaz also could mean gut feeling and not inner voice. Inner voice means conscience and thats different from gut feeling. While sure you would like to pick on that statement by ABV but its wrong.
According to many indians there is no difference between Hindutva or Bhartiyata. It has always been the policy of BJP not to appease any particular caste or religion. Trying to court minorities during the election was not wrong neither was it against Hindutva. If one looks at HIndutva after taking off their green glasses then one could espouse it to patriotism or nationalism. I highly doubt people will be against it but its always possible to find exceptions.
No indians is ignoring ills in their back yard. Some people are trying to prove your thoughts nothing to be more than anti-Hindu as you believe that killing of Hindus in Kashmir, Godhra, Marad and Bangladesh is perfectly okay while killing of Muslims in Gujarat, Palestian are genocide.
Indians always welcomed ABV ideas of talking with Hurriyat or Pakistan even though these people supported killings of innocent in Kashmirs. Similarly Indians welcome MMS calling for talks with Hurriyat.
Having said its enough in Marathi by ABV could be joke. Probably it is. I hope ABV has right to joke as FV has enjoys the rights given by Indian Constitution.

FV said:
Well after this article appeared, Mr. Vajpayee on 24th talked about his inner voice in clear terms! For those who made a hue-and-cry about my motives for questioning what was questionable, there have now been articles and editorials about ABV crying wolf, always talking about leaving, sulking etc etc...and to imagine that such a ``tall leader`` is now telling us that a lot of what he said was a joke?? And you people blame me!
So Mr. ABV cannot make a joke that was spoken in Marathi.
Also, your statement marked in bold clearly shows your hatred toward people who dont have similar ideas as you. Having disagreement is different than hate. I hope you find peace with yourself as hate is not going to get you anywhere.

dharma,

rape is not `legal` in pakistan, or i should hope anywhere else in the world. it is definitely not legal in private. but the word `legal` has been a rather iffy one in pakistan.

according to the law as it still stands right now. . .a law that women`s and `human rights` groups have been fighting for years. . .in order for a woman to make a case that she was raped, it is required that 4 men (of good repute) have witnessed the horrific event. please note 4 men. .not women, and men of good repute at that. given that this does not take place, there are women who have been found guilty of adultery, rather than robbed of their `izzat`.

there have been cases where this has been the exception, where the law has been in the favor of the woman, but justice has been hard to come by because the perpetrators and the family of said perpetrators want to make a `compromise` with money, rather than punishing the man. as if money can make up for the shame and suffering the woman goes through.

i thought it best that a `paki` try to shed some light on this issue for you. hope this helps, and you might add it to your wealth of negative thoughts, impressions you may have of us `pakis`. thanks.

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typical FV behavior on display here on chowk now..

first stoke the fire with all kinds of communal spins.

then take the backseat for a few days and enjoy chowkies slog it out here with each other.

come back and play the victim with the well rehearsed `` i am indian...i follow the law... i have the right to differ and to point out issues.. blah blah..``

we have seen all this before, havent we?

and dost mittar saheb. we talked about arvind and francis. where do you place farzana, she is a neutral observer, isnt she?

dharma, satyamvada:
I went throught the article again and still did not see anything in support of slavery in the islamic societies.

farzana writes:
``If one wants to split hairs, then it is also possible to see those who weep for the ills in S. Arabia while ignoring what happens in their own backyard as hypocrites too. But then one does not want to split hairs... ``
So by your logic pakis should not care about kashmiri muslims, palestinians, chechenyans, and others as they have their handsful with internal problems. I would look forward
for you taking this stand in your interactions on chowk. Otherwise you would be a
proven hypocrite. Pleas advise the pakis to stick to their internal problems.

Question to chowkies:
Is rape legal in pakistan if done in private? I heard that from someone and I could
not believe it. He said if you dont do it in a crowd of 4 or more it is perfectly legal.
Can anyone shed some light on this? thanks.

No, all those who do not have issues with you do not feel sorry for you!!! (you`d have 1.2 billion minus several thousand people feeling sorry for you-bit much for anyone). It was Omar who talked about how people here were treating you, and he did sound sorry for you. As I said, you can look after yourself...you may be a number of things, but never weak. :)

A few points...

1. PM Manmohan Singh has categorically stated (today`s TOI) that he will hold talks with the Hurriyat and other groups regarding the J& K issue.

Will he be termed unpatriotic? Is he selling off his country by doing so?

2. I live in India and its Constitution applies to me. I have certain rights and certain duties...I make use of the first and try to fulfill the other to the best of my ability. I do not live off its freedom; I use it to bring up issues that i think need to be brought out in the open, just as those who do not agree with me do so...if anything I should be seen to stand out as an example, not as a sore thumb. The fact that some misguided individuals believe otherwise makes me wonder whether they are as progressive and liberal as they claim to be.

3. If one wants to split hairs, then it is also possible to see those who weep for the ills in S. Arabia while ignoring what happens in their own backyard as hypocrites too. But then one does not want to split hairs...

4. nb: Does the fact that an individual does not have issues with me naturally translate into that person feeling sorry for me? (I find it terrible to imagine anyone feeling sorry for me.)Omar has never interacted on my board before nor I on his...but from your initial interactions with him, it is obvious that you have. Both of you do not project your personal grouses on me. I think we should let this rest. At least there are more people who do seem to have issues with me, anyway.

...continued from my previous post

`evaluate` the impact of riots from the number of lives lost on the street.

It is not about religion anymore- but about neo-fascism in the garb of religiousity which demands worldly benefits from the omnipotent because temporal power is supposed to be promised by the omnipotent to its followers.

Internal rivalry marks 3-day meet
- By Our Special Correspondent

Mumbai, June 24: Internal bickering within the Bharatiya Janata Party and the lack of discipline among party workers, coupled with the tension between Gujarat chief minister Narendra Modi and Mr Keshubhai Patel, dominated the proceedings of the three-day national executive meeting which was actually called to evaluate the party’s defeat in the 14th Lok Sabha elections.

The BJP will conduct party elections by August-end. It will draw lessons from the Lok Sabha elections and move forward during the Assembly, a draft of its ``Task Ahead`` stated. While the party will ``go back to basics and embrace Hindutva, it will also make simultaneous efforts at befriending the minority community.``

At a press conference on Thursday, party president Venkaiah Naidu, however, described the meet as ``highly successful, mood changing and focusing on the future.``

He said that the party will face the electorate with a twin commitment of nationalism and development. ``That will be our agenda and bifocal vision of a resurgent India.``

Mr Naidu said that the BJP and the Jan Sangh were cadre-based parties which were transiting into a mass base. He warned party workers against groupism. He said, ``The worker will then remain loyal to an individual and not the party. Groupism is like an infection which should be arrested before it transforms into a contagious disease. This makes the organisation fragile and renders it incapable of facing the mandate cohesively.`` The party will take deterrent and demonstrative action against erring workers, including the higher echelons.

The ``Task Ahead`` draft also said, ``For these corrective measures to succeed, personal conduct and style of functioning should be a part of the BJP ideology.`` Referring to the recent rift between Mr Modi and Mr Patel, the draft said, ``The rapidly gathering impression is that acts of indiscipline will be condoned and that even serious cases of anti-piracy activities will be overlooked. Absence of communication within the party and lack of an effective grievance redressal cell forced party workers to breach the discipline. ``One of the manifestations of indiscipline is the tendency to use the media to air one’s grievances. Wittingly or unwittingly, some people in the party share organisational matters with the media. This causes considerable damage to the party’s image and internal cohesion,`` the draft said.

On its ``Task Ahead,`` the BJP will expand, consolidate and revive the party back to glory, Mr Naidu said. The party will spot young talent and groom their leadership qualities by giving them responsibilities in local self-government bodies. Efforts will be made to include women and youth. The BJP also decided to shed its defensive attitude on its ideology and launch an offensive against political forces which oppose Hindutva.

Well after this article appeared, Mr. Vajpayee on 24th talked about his inner voice in clear terms! For those who made a hue-and-cry about my motives for questioning what was questionable, there have now been articles and editorials about ABV crying wolf, always talking about leaving, sulking etc etc...and to imagine that such a ``tall leader`` is now telling us that a lot of what he said was a joke?? And you people blame me!

Here are two articles for those who care...

http://www.asianage.com/
June 25, 2004

Vajpayee: It was only a joke
- By Our Special Correspondent

Mumbai, June 24: Former Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee on Thursday retracted his threat not to lead the BJP in the next elections and blamed his ``love for the Marathi language`` for the confusion.

In his 45-minute address on the concluding day of the three-day BJP national executive meeting at plush Hotel Renaissance in Mumbai on Thursday, Mr Vajpayee said, ``Kuch cheheron pe kal tak chamak thi. Jo aaj nahin hai. Shayad mera Marathi ka prem iska karan hai. (The brightness on the faces of the party workers, which had glowed till yesterday, has suddenly diminished today. It could be because of my love for Marathi).``

And as a measure to rectify the misunderstanding, Mr Vajpayee has decided to tour whole of Maharashtra and participate in election campaign during the Assembly elections in September.

On Wednesday, Mr Vajpayee had told a party workers’ meet at the Shanmukhananda Hall, ``No more`` and ``It is more than enough,`` when the party workers shouted slogans like, ``Ab ki bari, Atal Behari.`` Mr Vajpayee had replied in Marathi and said, ``Ata ekahi bari nako, pushkad zaley,`` with an obvious reference to repeated brickbats he had faced after the elections and that he had had enough.

Mr Vajpayee also earned the ire of the RSS when he blamed Gujarat chief minister Narendra Modi for the defeat in the Lok Sabha elections in Manali. The Sangh Parivar, which had distanced itself from Mr Modi due to his autocratic method of working, suddenly came to his defence.

On Thursday, Mr Vajpayee clarified that he had uttered those words in humour. He told BJP activists: ``I was naturally not expected to say that I am ready and let us conduct the elections. I was the Prime Minister for six years and will never ignore my responsibilities.``

Mr Vajpayee repeated the adage that words which once slip from the mouth can never be retracted. Sometimes humour also gives way to mischief, he said, and added, ``I will have to work more aggressively henceforth.``

Angered by the anti-Vajpayee and anti-BJP statements by the VHP leaders, the BJP hit back on Thursday and asked the Sangh Parivar outfit not to intervene in its affairs.

``We do not agree at all with whatever statements have been issued by the VHP leaders against the BJP,`` party chief M. Venkaiah Naidu said at the end of three-day party national executive. ``The VHP should leave the BJP’s matters to the BJP,`` he said. Party spokesperson Mukhtar Abbas Naqvi said the former Prime Minister remained the BJP’s ``tallest leader.``

The VHP had criticised Mr Vajpayee’s remarks late on Wednesday night and said that he should ``take political sanyas if he sincerely wants to.`` The VHP said Mr Vajpayee’s remarks reflected a ``defeatist attitude`` which did not suit a leader.

``If his statement has come as a result of helplessness due to election defeat and sadness due to criticism, it reflects a defeatist attitude which does not suit a leader,`` VHP’s senior vice-president Giriraj Kishore had told agencies from Lucknow.

If he sincerely wants to take sanyas he should do it. ``Renunciation is a great thing to do,`` Mr Kishore said.

VHP international general secretary Praveen Togadia said in Surat that the six-year-rule of the Vajpayee government has ``exposed the hypocrisy among the leaders who practised it.``

``The Hindu society knows who stands where. They have seen the real face (of the BJP leaders),``Mr Togadia said.

The RSS, however, said Mr Vajpayee continued to be the ``beloved leader`` of the BJP cadres. Describing Mr Vajpayee as an elderly statesman, editor of RSS mouthpiece Panchajanya Tarun Vijay said, ``He will always remain an inspiration to us.``

Mr Vijay said the former Prime Minister has been saying it is enough and that he would like to retire ``but the people and the party workers never allowed him to do so and they will never allow to do so.``

``He is our beloved leader,`` Mr Vijay said adding, ``BJP has got a civilisational role to play in Indian politics. It is not a group of power-hungry leaders who would have different fluctuating programmes just to grab power.``

RSS spokesman Ram Madhav refused to comment on the issue, saying he was ``not aware of the developments.`` Asked whether the RSS would intervene if Mr Vajpayee chose to retire, he said there was no such need as the matter was related to the BJP.

During his speech on Thursday, Mr Vajpayee also told party workers that he knew that the BJP would lose seats in the 14th Lok Sabha. ``Meri antar awaz mujhe keh rahi thi. (My inner voice told me so). I had also told Mr Lal Krishna Advani that the party was likely to lose some seats, when he had come to meet me in Lucknow. But these results were totally unexpected.``

He admitted that the BJP was not able to impress the poor people of the country with its telecom revolution and highways. He said, ``We will have to resort to the popular language of bijli, sadak aur paani.``

Making a dig at the Congress-led United Progressive Alliance, Mr Vajpayee said, ``It is an alliance that already has birthmarks and the internal differences have started to surface. Whereas our party has to fulfil a dream and efforts should be made to realise it.``

On Hindutva, Mr Vajpayee said, ``Mujhe Bharatiyata aur Hindutva mein koi antar nazar nahin aata (I do not distinguish between Bharatiyata and Hindutva).``

#233 by dost-mittar on June 24, 2004 3:53am PT
I am surprised- all this number game of how many were killed by police bullets only shows a huge escalation of riotings and how even the police who were to initially provide protection to these rioters had to fire so many round in order to keep `their` rioters `under control` (by that I imply rioting with minimum loss of lives)!!!

Riots happen because they are planned for- arms do not appear suddenly- it is only the subsequent `escalation` of the riots that is un-planned- quite like throwing a burning stick on a stack of hay.
In order to start the riots and then keep them going the RSS goons spread rumours about muslim atrocities, incite ordinary hindus to avenge these and the past ones, distribute the arms and assure them of political protection and non-interference from the police- and then they watch the mayhem!! Ofcourse, they also `educate` ordinary folks with sterotypical thinking and inflamatory discourses so that at the time of riot they respond to their invitation to butchery!
This anatomy of riots is well documented in India- yet we appear to

Dost-mittat #240
She supported the slavery implicity when she tried to equate and justify
legal exploitation of women in saudi arabia with illegal/criminal exploitation
of the same in other countries. Isnt it rather careless/hypocritical of her to
make light of the predicament of saudi women. Her careless remarks, brushing
it off saying there are lot of other problems is so shallow. It is like saying
1) raping of women should be made legal because it is so difficult to implement anyway,
or 2) rapes occur in all countries even if they have laws against it so why bother,
or 3)make your country crime free and then advise us about making rape illegal.
that is her line of thinking - almost makes her apologist for the saudis.

As usual dost-mitter is upto his dhimmi behavior.

FV is a b*igot of the worst kind. She is the most communal minded and supports
the breakup of India (of course all under the name of freedom), supports the JKLF,
an apologist for terrorists & killing of Hindus,
She is for the ummah and loves the palestinians and the Arafat, on the
other hand even the Mahatma is to be trodded upon.

FV (like many of her religious compatriots) lives off the freedom of India but
has nothing to say about her co-religionists abusing others.

dharma#239
``I despise hypocrites like farzana who while enjoying the freedoms of a kafir country, support the slavery in islamic socities``

Could you please tell where FV has supported the slavery of islamic society? Nor do I recall her complaining about Indian laws; it is their implementation that she generally talks about. And in this article, she didn`t even do that, not even about the Indian laws against homosexuals.

farana does not reply when I challenge her to show one law in India that
discriminates against you because you are a woman. No civilized country
would have laws different for men and women.

from economist june 18 2004:

``From kindergarten to university to the few professions they are permitted to pursue, as well as in restaurants and banks and in other public places, the female half of Saudi Arabia`s population is kept strictly apart. Women are not allowed to drive a car, sail a boat or fly a plane, or to appear outdoors with hair, wrists or ankles exposed, or to travel without permission from a male guardian. A wife who angers her husband risks being “hanged”; that is, suspended in legal limbo, often penniless and trapped indoors, until such time as he deigns to grant a divorce. And then she will lose custody of her children.``

My heart weeps for these women whose life is not theirs to live as they chose. Their only
fault is being born as women in saudi arabia. Why are pakis more sympathetic to Kashmiris
who have same rights as any other indians than to these women who are obviosuly
second class citizens? For me it is obvious. These women dont even have basic
rights to even sunlight forget about their own country. And the muslim men
in kashmir have no problem with equal rights - they just want to make it inequal
by making it like saudi arabia. And pakis sympathise with that! What hypocrites.
I despise hypocrites like farzana who while enjoying the freedoms of a kafir country, support the slavery in islamic socities.

Never suggested you had an issue with Farzana, Omar. That`s the point.

ankit #236
``jus wanted to add that it is convenient to say that what teesta seetalvad professes is not secularism. ``

Not sure what you mean, but I will point out that it is convenient for Hindutva-vadis too, who inspite of many years in power have not stopped holding others responsible for their their own blatant biases and biased actions.

sadna
fair enough.

jus wanted to add that it is convenient to say that what teesta seetalvad professes is not secularism. after all people like her significantly affect public opinion and the mainstream media offers them platform.

dm sahab

i read arvind lavkare`s article. it has its own spin, trying to get the gujrat govt off the hook and then trying to implicate congress. nevertheless, it is asking the right questions. if the secualr establishment acts in a partisan manner, almost like a political party, its credibility will go the same way as the politicians.

already we are not surprised if politicians do scandals, murder or rape. the media is still believed to be honest. i hope the time does not come when we refuse to read indian newspapers` columns and just watch bbc to know what is going on in the country.

gujju i said it before and ill say it again, you`re a moron -- utter and complete moron -- this is from the finance minister`s budget speech this year moron -- since you`re such an internet afficianado wonder how u missed this in dawn recently --

``REBASING OF NATIONAL ACCOUNTS: A major event of the year was rebasing of national accounts from the year 1980-81 to 1999-2000 that resulted overall size of the economy to go up from $70 billion to $95 billion. He explained that there was no impact on growth rate due to the change of base year.

As a result of rebasing, the official data now covered a new range of products and economic activities such as courier services, travel agencies, mobile telephone, etc.``

and (read the last paragraph carefully gujju [moron] bania --

Executive summary of Economic Survey 2003-04

ISLAMABAD, June 11: Following is the executive summary of the Economic Survey 2003-04, released here on Friday.

Growth and Investment

The resurgent Pakistani economy has shown an impressive growth trajectory for the second year in a row with real GDP growing by 6.4 per cent during the current fiscal year against 5.1 per cent last year.

This higher growth is underpinned by a buoyant industrial sector, which grew by a record 13.1 per cent, and a services sector which grew by 5.2 per cent. The agriculture sector has marginally under-paced real GDP growth by growing at 2.6 per cent against 4.1 per cent last year.

However, this growth does not truly reflect the contribution of agriculture towards real GDP growth as higher prices of agricultural produce during the current year have fueled economic activity.

The growth performance was quite impressive and mainly emanated from the industrial sector reflecting an enhanced productive, as well as, job creating capacity of the economy.

The distinct feature of the growth patterns had more to do with the relative strength of domestic factors in different areas rather than the impact of global developments. On the internal front, fiscal stimulus and monetary easing have supported the growth of domestic demand.

The driving force behind the initial phase of the recovery was the strong domestic demand for industrial goods and services. The real GDP at factor cost was originally targeted at 5.3 per cent in 2003-04, with agriculture and manufacturing growing by 4.2 per cent and 6.8 per cent, respectively.

The real GDP at factor cost grew by 6.4 per cent which is supported by 2.6 per cent, 13.4 per cent and 5.2 per cent growth rates in agriculture, manufacturing and services, respectively.

GNP at factor cost exhibited a deceleration in growth from 7.9 per cent in 2002-03 to 5.2 per cent in 2003-04 mainly due to a decline of 30.5 per cent in net factor income from abroad.

The agriculture sector grew by 2.6 per cent in 2003-04 which is lower than actual growth of 4.1 per cent last year and a target of 4.2 per cent. Major crops, accounting for 34 per cent of agricultural value added, grew by 2.8 per cent against a 6.9 per cent rise in value addition for last year and a target of 5.5 per cent for 2003-04.

Minor crops, which contribute 12 per cent of value addition in agriculture, grew by 1.7 per cent in 2003-04 against a growth target of 3.5 per cent and a slight increase of 0.4 per cent last year.

The Livestock sub-sector, which accounts for almost one half of overall value addition in the agricultural sector (49 per cent), has witnessed a modest growth of 2.6 per cent in 2003-04 against a target of three per cent and an actual achievement of 2.8 per cent last year.

The growth performance of the overall manufacturing sector was spearheaded by unprecedented growth in the large-scale manufacturing sector which grew by 17.1 per cent against the target of 8.8 per cent and last year`s actual rate of 7.2 per cent.

The large-scale manufacturing sector, accounting for 68 per cent of overall manufacturing, recorded an impressive and broad based growth and helped overall manufacturing grow by 13.4 per cent, against a target of 7.8 per cent and last year`s growth of 6.9 per cent.

Small-scale manufacturing continued to grow at an estimated 7.5 per cent rate in 2003-04. The Construction sector grew by 7.9 per cent against 3.1 per cent last year and a yearly target of 5.4 per cent.

The Electricity and gas distribution sector registered a massive increase of 22.5 per cent against a decline of 2.6 per cent last year and a yearly target of 5.3 per cent. The services sector grew by 5.2 per cent against 5.3 per cent last year.

The wholesale & retail trade and transport, storage & communication sub-sectors grew by eight per cent and 3.9 per cent, respectively against 5.9 per cent and four per cent last year.

The largest contribution to the real GDP growth rate of 6.4 per cent came from the commodity producing sector (3.6 percentage points). Within this sector, the industrial sector alone contributed three percentage points with a major share coming from the manufacturing sector (2.2).

The services sector contributed 2.8 percentage points or 43 per cent to real GDP growth. As far as the composition of GDP is concerned, the industrial sector improved its share from 22.6 per cent to 24.5 per cent whereas; agriculture declined from 26.2 per cent to 23.3 per cent between 1999-2000 and 2003-04. Due to tremendous growth in the recent past the share of the manufacturing sector has increased from 14.8 per cent in 1999-2000 to 17.5 per cent in 2003-04.

A sharp acceleration in per capita income was witnessed during the last two years in dollar terms mainly because of a stable exchange rate and higher real GDP growth. Against an annual average rate of 1.4 per cent in the 1990s, per capita income grew at an average rate of 13.9 per cent per annum during the last two years (2002-04) and 12.0 per cent during 2003-04.

The per capita income in dollar terms increased from $526 in 1999-2000 to $652 in 2003-04 - an increase of 24.0 per cent in the last four years. Total investment picked up sharply to 18.1 per cent of GDP in 2003-04 against 16.7 per cent last year.

farzana -- dont know what the hell NB is talking about but i have no issue with u --

LO AND BEHOLD YE PAKI BASHERS.... even your central govt in delhi doesnt buy this story now --

Delhi ribs Gujarat on `encounter`


By Jawed Naqvi

NEW DELHI, June 22: The Indian government has plainly told the Gujarat establishment to give quality proof that there were Pakistani men among the four people killed in an alleged encounter in the state recently , indicating a toughened stand against communally-inspired rhetoric.

The Indian Express reported on Tuesday that the government was clearly unimpressed by the Gujarat police`s ``evidence`` supporting the Pakistani identity of two alleged Lashkar-i-Toiba men shot last Tuesday.

New Delhi has asked the state police to furnish a more detailed report with sufficient evidence before the matter can be taken up with Pakistan. The report was sought after the Gujarat police approached the Ministry of External Affairs to ask the Pakistan High Commission to claim the bodies of Jishan Johar and Amjadali Akbarali Rana, the two alleged Pakistani members of Lashkar-i-Toiba.

The two men were among the four persons shot dead by the Gujarat police on a deserted stretch of the Himmatnagar highway. Ishrat Jahan, a 19-year-old college student from Mumbra in Thane, and Javed Ghulam Mohammed Sheikh of Pune were the other two killed.

Civil rights activists have accused the rightwing Hindutva government of staging a fake encounter for political mileage. The issue has caused ripples even within the state`s ruling Bharatiya Janata Party as its former Gujarat chief minister Keshubhai Patel declared that the state was experiencing a mini-emergency.

Mr Patel has stayed away from a high-level meeting of the party in Mumbai. ``I am unhappy about the prevailing situation in the state. There is a sort of mini-emergency where MLAs are afraid to express their feelings,`` Mr Patel, who has ``skipped`` the BJP national executive meeting that began in Mumbai on Tuesday morning citing ``knee pain``, said at his residence in Ahmedabad.

ankit#230:

``What is the reason that you choose to believe praful bidwai instead of francois gauthier..?``

Could you please tell where I have approved what bidwai said?
When Lavakare introduces Gauthier as a ``Delhi based french journalist`` he is giving the impression that he is quoting a disinterested neutral third party on a domestic issue, which is somewhat misleading. OTOH Bidwai would have introduced the same person as a `rabid hindutva supporter of french origin married to a hindu`.
Problems with Lavakare, Bidwai, et al is not so much in what they say but in what they leave out. I posted that excerpt for a reason. In the same article, Lavakare also quotes from a likely pro-khalistani group based in London re. the Delhi massacres of 84. I am one of those who believe that those riots were even worse than the Gujarat massacres, especially since the culprit was a prime minister rather than a state chief minister, and Sonia Gandhi has gone down quite a few notches in my eyes for choosing Jagdish Tytler for a ministerial berth. But the London report quoted by Lavakare exaggerated the events quite a bit. In the excerpt posted by me, Lavakare quotes some fairly reputable agencies like the minorities commission which seem to exonerate the state govt. My suspicion was that he had quoted selectively and I was wondering that one of the interactors here might know about such distortions. Hence my post.

ankit #230
``why are you prepared to forget one crime when going hammer and tongs on the other..?a``

Since you mention my post, your assumption that I do not raise the other incidents of politicial violence is wrong.

IMO, it is a mistake to unquestioningly term as secularism what public figures or organisations` have pursues as their political choices wrt political violence.

I personally look for equal and not selective outrage about all political violence from all, whether the BJP or RJD or Teesta Setalvad or the Congress party or yet the Communists.

227 to 230

previously on this board, i have asked the same questions as i have in 230 but I have never got any answer.

I just want to add a response to arvind lavakare`s article that is on rediff. i think that is what dm has quoted.

``

i have always maintained what has been stated in this article that nothing compares to what happened in Delhi in 1984. i am NOT justifying the deaths in Gujarat - Godhra or the Subsequent. but its an irony that we have such a shamelessly biased media which sees everything with tinted glasses.

even the recent the Ishrat Jahan case, common the media says, ``Ishrat Innocent - Say Friends``. who are these friends & what is their locus standi? does it amount to a clean chit? what if they had succeed in killing Modi and resulted in another riot killing say 5000 muslims this time. you would still hold Modi responsible for it?

i seriously feel that the Indian media is doing a great disservice to the nation and it is a pity that we cant do anything about it.
``


my sentiments are similar to this poster. just that he put it well.

+++

ankit:
Francois Gauthier may be French but he is hardly an impartial observer. He is known for his glorification of hindus and hindu religion.

+++

we already know that saying anything that glorifies hinduism or hindus is absolutely unbearable to the seculars. that is why mulayam singh who openly talks of concerns of muslims is secular but the moment one talks about concerns of hindus, he/she is branded communal.

more than anything else, the credibility of seculars is what is under question. when teesta seetalvad celebrates the killing of karsevaks in godhra on the grounds that they caused provocation, how is it different from modi invoking newton`s law?? same with the dealings that the media has given to the nominations to the perpetrators of sikh pogroms in this government. why the partial attitude ? is shedding muslim blood communal and shedding of sikh blood secular..? why are you prepared to forget one crime when going hammer and tongs on the other..?

in my opinion, every column that we read in the media has some partial attitude. francois gauthier is no exception. What is the reason that you choose to believe praful bidwai instead of francois gauthier..?

sadna:
I am in full agreement with you.
Still, I posted excerpt from Arvind Lavkare`s article to find out if his stats. were accurate, because I think that they do not seem to accurately reflect the picture as it was coming out from Gujarat at that time.

dost-mittar #223
The ruling party evidently decided to give its cadres free reign on Feb 28, a day on which VHP had pre-announced a bandh/protest.

And since then the Government`s actions and words have been clearly partisan. However inflamed a population is, the government can not take sides so blatantly.

The refusal to punish the guilty within the VHP/BJP, and the hate speech from members of the government before and after directed at Muslims indict the Modi government.

The pointed refusal to help Muslim victims of mob violence, arson and murder with anything but paltry amounts while declaring the Hindu affectees of Godhra as victims of terrorism, deserving of lakhs of rupees in compensation also indicts the Modi government.

No action against police personnel under whose watch violence took place has been reported. There has also been no reported action against Gujarati language newspapers which spread inflammatory false information, instead the English language media is bashed on every occasion.

People who speak up against the propagation of hatred like Mallika Sarabhai are being harassed for speaking up by VHP/BJP members/ supporters.

The Gujarat government has also shown no institutional interest in understanding the event comprehesively, administratively and sociologically and deriving lessons on how to prevent such incidents in future. The government prefers to put the onus for entire episode on the triggering event, the Godhra train burning. BJP/VHP has taken no action to tone down their cadres` free-wheeling anti-minority rhetoric.

In short, the absolute hollowness of the pious `all Indians are Hindus` rhetoric of Sanghis stands totally exposed. That Modi called out the Army on March 1 does not exonerate them.

ankit:
Francois Gauthier may be French but he is hardly an impartial observer. He is known for his glorification of hindus and hindu religion.

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+++

Francois Gautier, a Delhi-based French journalist, wrote that subsequently there were 157 riots and that all of them were started by Muslim groups (India Today, June 24, 2002).

+++

this cannot be correct. muslims dont start the riots at all. after all, they just took it when they were being targetted in gujrat and that is why there were no hindus who were killed in gujrat.


state sposored, pogrom, genocide.. we are readign all kinds of spins. there have been attempts to make it look worse with passage of time. i am sure in a decade or so, we shall be teaching our childred that millions of muslims were killed. secular history, that is.

215 by jang

jang

i know what dealing with a daroga means. but the point is:
dealing of the nasty daroga in bihar is perfectly fine coz he is doing it in a secular manner while these secular guys will jum up and down about what goes on in ahmedabad. that is because they are ready to bear the crap as long as it fits their definition of secular.

I saw this article by a pro-bjp columnist on the Gujarat riots. Could someone please tell how much of is factual?

``Gujarat 2002 riots

Provocation: On the morning of February 27, at Godhra station, 58 Hindu passengers returning from a pilgrimage to Lord Ram`s Ayodhya were scorched alive by a Muslim mob.

Retaliation: While nothing much happened on February 27 itself, a mass vendetta commenced on February 28. For two days thereafter, Hindu groups indulged in arson and loot, raping and killing.

Counter-retaliation: Francois Gautier, a Delhi-based French journalist, wrote that subsequently there were 157 riots and that all of them were started by Muslim groups (India Today, June 24, 2002).

Victims: In the three months following the Godhra massacre, the official figure is 800 dead, of which a quarter were Hindus. Another estimate is 1,050 dead, of which Hindus were 250. Of the 98,000 persons sent to refugee camps, 10,000 were Hindus.

Government action: A five-man fact-finding committee of The Council for International Affairs and Human Rights headed by D S Tewatia, a former chief justice of the Calcutta and Punjab and Haryana high courts, reported that:–

By the afternoon of February 28, it was clear that the communal violence had spread widely and the situation had become so alarming that it was unlikely to be controlled by the police and paramilitary forces. Hence, at 4.30 pm that day, the chief minister announced at a press conference that the state government had decided to call the army to assist the civil administration. And by that evening the Union government had given instructions for the deployment of two brigades in Gujarat.
The Union defence minister flew to Ahmedabad at midnight and had a meeting with the chief minister to discuss deployment of the army. Troops needed to be withdrawn from the country`s border with Pakistan, where they were deployed in full strength in an eyeball-to-eyeball situation.
Within 24 hours, one brigade of the Indian Army had landed in Ahmedabad. In a meeting at 8 am in which the chief minister, defence minister, army generals, and civil officers participated, the formal plan for deployment of the army was approved. Magistrates needed to accompany the army were appointed and by 11 am on March 1 the actual deployment of the army at sensitive points had begun.
The second brigade was deputed to Rajkot and Vadodara on the night of March 1.
Columns allotted to Godhra reached there on the morning of March 2.
The army went back to the barracks on March 10.
What did the Gujarat police do? In the first 48 hours of the violence, they arrested 3,900 persons, of whom two-thirds were Hindus (Sanjoy Banerjee, `Indian Politics in this Age`, Indian Currents, June 2002). By April 5, 9,500 persons had been arrested, of whom two-thirds were Hindus. `The Gujarat police did try to restore law and order.` (Prem Shankar Jha, `Gujarat: A Sober Diary`, Outlook, April 22, 2002.) National Minorities Commission Chairman John Joseph noted, `As on April 6, 126 persons were killed in police firing, of whom 77 were Hindus.` (Kay Benedict, `Bad PR charge on Atal, Modi`, The Telegraph, April 21, 2002.) L K Advani, ex-home minister, publicly stated that the police fired 3,900 rounds of ammunition.

The National Human Rights Commission and the Minorities Commission `accepted the Gujarat government`s contention that it did foresee trouble and took precautionary steps to check it, but was caught by surprise and overwhelmed by the mob fury erupting on February 28.`

The billion-dollar question: So was Gujarat 2002 `state-sponsored` genocide against Muslims? Was it at all genocide or a pogrom against Muslims? Or was it a case of any number of sandbags not enough to stem the Brahmaputra floods?``

url:http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=337962

Farzana, I did think Omar was coming to your rescue because from his point of view, he felt sorry for you.

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#217 by sadna on June 22, 2004 2:32pm PT
``Re Vajpayee. If he wanted to listen to his inner voice, the correct time to have done it was during or in the aftermath of the Gujarat riots. Then it was a matter of life and death and he did not take a stand then. ``

its clear now that Vajpayee used the most recent ``inner-voice`` to tell modi and the gang that he is still the Alpha Male in the party. ABV is a politician, and smart politicians use all available tools at disposal. ABV used his inner voice to establish his position in the party.

farzana writes:

``And just FYI, the social ills that beset women cannot be restricted merely to one community. Look in our own backyard before talking about other societies, imperfect as they are. Read the papers. The inside pages. ``

This is what I knew you would say. Because there is crime in this world,
every damn thing is justfied. For your information, if there is just one law
in India that discriminates against you because you are a woman, I will be the
first one to fight to repeal it! It is simply not justifiable to treat humans differently.
Criminals are always present to break the law no matter what laws you make.
But dont hide behind them and make criminals of everyone!

Re Vajpayee. If he wanted to listen to his inner voice, the correct time to have done it was during or in the aftermath of the Gujarat riots. Then it was a matter of life and death and he did not take a stand then.

If he could not do it then, the only reason he is even bringing up the subject NOW is perhaps a last ditch attempt to salvage some `legacy` points and to assert his POV over those dissenters in the party, who might have gone against his judgement on Modi, on timing of elections and on the theme of the election campaign.


As for dismissing Modi for whatever reason, it might be relevant to point out at least two instances when the Vajpayee-led government has refused to dismiss state governments of its political opponents to appease its allies in government.

In the first instance, the second Vajpayee-led government lost office in March/April 1999 and midterm Lok Sabha elections had to be called because the Vajpayee government refused to dismiss Tamil Nadu`s DMK government of Karunanidhi at the say-so of NDA ally Jayalalitha, who got angry and withdrew support. That was the time when the Vajpayee government was only caretaker government but had to deal with Kargil, remember.


The second instance was when George Fernandes`s Samata party and others wanted the Laloo/Rabri government to be dismissed after many episodes of violence/lawlessness. The BJP leadership finally refused to accede to the demand, though this created trouble in the alliance. It was possible(I don`t remember) that the Congress was in two minds and might have helped NDA in that instance, but still they refused to dismiss that government.

Agreed in the Gujarat case, it is more a change of CM and pushing Modi into background in the party vs not, not dismissal of government and dissolving of assembly, but the examples are still relevant to some extent. It might be worth understanding better what really lies behind BJP`s resistance to dismissal of state governments or change of CM.

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#91

Jang, you are confusing the Madras Regiment with the Madras Sappers. The former is an infantry regiment.

#214 by ankit on June 22, 2004 11:41am PT

heh heh.. ankit, wait till you have to deal with a daroga..and then dont go squaling (aap ko pata hai mera baap kaun hai). i personally am scared of the police BIG time and have no intentions of letting down my guard. you should be too if you have any sense.

the way the self styled seculars are jumping up and down about killing of people, who at the least had dubios links with terrorists and at the worst could have been planning terrorist activities themselves, is really amazing. gangsters, who are less dangerous than terrorists in the sense that they dont cause bomb blasts and kill dozens, are routinely killed in encounters and nobody gives a damn. in fact, it is acknowledged as a way around the law machinery which drags the case for years!

contrast this with the reaction we got when families of security personnel were killed in jammu and the secular cm of jammu and kashmir refused to visit the victims.

nb:

You made a comment to Omar that he was coming to my rescue. I only hope you did not say so because he is a Pakistani, for another Pakistani, Nooralain, was also taking up for me through several posts...From the tenor of Omar`s posts it was obvious he was not...he had issues with some things I said and some people who he has other issues with.

Immediate clarification:

#206, 211:

When I read the statement about getting the whole story from her family, I was surprised because I did not assume the family would come out with the truth. Please see the tenor of my post #203...I have studiously avoided commenting/taking up the Ishrat case, even when I was pointedly asked what I was planning to do about the ``helpless`` one. You may not agree with my views on many/most issues, but do not distort...or, to give the benefit of doubt, let a misunderstanding in communication get in the way of what I meant.

``I am confounded by people’s responses here. Get the whole story from Ishrat’s family? When was the last time we got the real whole story from Chhota Rajan’s family, Dawood’s family or, on another note, Telgi’s family? Or any of the goons?``

Is it not evident that I did not mention any innocent person in this group?

``People were talking about her innocence. Which people? Her neighbours, her classmates, her college principal? This is surprising. For a student who was not a front-ranker nor a participant in extra-curricular activities, how would the principal be in a position to tell? It is clear that most people are afraid of what consequences they might face from certain elements if they said anything negative, if at all they were privy to it. It is easy to make statements like, “She was quiet”, “She was obedient”. The government won’t be after you for it.``

The certain elements they feared obviously meant criminals...which is why I transposed it with the government.

- - -

PS to whoever: I do not need to lie. I have not gone back on several things I could have in the past, but did not. So just quit firing from other people`s shoulders.

Extra-judicial killing is a crime! But how do you deter the terrorists and Jehadists who blatently talk the language of gun- how do you deter those who talk about showing no pity on those whom they consider as apostates?
And why nobody asks this question- What was Ishrat doing at the scene of encounter? Was she kidnapped or she came voluntarily with those Pakistani terrorists? how is it possible for a young girl of 19 to move around with 3 remote acquaitances in a remote city without the consent of her family members? Do you think that the family members had no clue about what she was doing? That is why I insist that it is only the members of her Family who can shed light on the `secrets` that Ishrat was holding on from the rest of the world.
Have we forgotten such satanic conspiracies at Ghatkopar or Coimbatore killed innocent muslims as well?
Why do we pre-judge such sensitive matters and shout down the damning evidences? It would be sheer foolishness if we were to turn a blind eye at all the secret fascist organizations being run by a band of psychoaths who train and motivate their members at hatred and violence towards every body they consider as apostates and heretics.
Yes, we must press for independent enquiry- but at the same time we must stop shedding tears for Pakistani terrorists who wrongly think that they have a right to avenge `our` hurt!!!