Careless Consciences

Frarzana, instead of defending the indefensible, would you please help the helpless? This girl Israt doesn`t look like she was a terrorist, though I will be happy to be proved wrong. Even if she was going about with a terrorist, that`s no excuse for not trying to avoid her in a shootout. I mean this seriously-aren`t you going to do something about it?

Folks,

Look at FV`s comment #108, she ends up referring to a ``we`` the muslims.
So she pretends to speak for all muslims in India :)
that is pretty arrogant .... She of course tprobably hinks that she is the descendent of
Iranians ...

To counter the fundamentalism and bigotry of people like FV it is important
that truth about Islamic history in India be told. Like Dost-Mitter has pointed
out, one also needs to distinguish between the ideology of Islam and the Muslim
individuals.

Luckily as the economic power of India increses and the economic power of SaudiArabia
goes down, India will be in a better position to better absorb and integrate muslims
into society. Hopefully a Hinduised Islam which admires DaraShikoh and detests
the bigotry of Aurangzeb will come into existence.

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Gujjubania, the girl was an idiot, but there`s no proof she was more than that. She has the right to sleep with as many people as she wants-that does not mean she should have been killed. People fall in love and do all sorts of stupid things. Was she an immediate danger to the public? Should I have to tell a (supposedly) 17 year-old that? What I`m asking Farzana is why she will defend those non-kashmiri militants in Kashmir and not a young girl who got caught . I`m not complaining about the others-even if this was an extra-judical faked encounter, don`t know if it was-if they were terrorists, things have reached a point where I don`t care how they died. This is terrible for me to admit, because I have always believed in innocent till proved otherwise, but it is a sign of our times.Civil liberties are falling by the wayside, in our minds, then in public.

#116 by sadna:

I thought you’d get it…the dig at Mallus giving the fish curry to MMS was said purely in jest and not to undermine either the PM or Mallus…
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#128 by gujjubania:

Here we go again…apologising to me is not the point. You make incendiary comments about a whole section of people and the so-called adults here get all excited. Please do not let what you yourself call an anonymous forum make you decide on how the ‘other guys’ think. There are kinds and kinds of people within groups. Since you mentioned Zafar, he and I do not agree on all issues, at least when he interacted here. (Am not aware of what happens at Sulekha or any other website.) While stereotypes are inevitable, try and judge people by how you see them ‘personally’. So, if you do not like what I say, come out with it, but do not bring in 160 million Muslims. For when you do, I will speak up for them. It then does become a WE issue.

PS: I wish you would choose your chachas and mamus with care:)
PPS: Next time you make these incendiary comments and then come all sweet and nice, do not expect the same treatment…I just have chocolate in my mouth right now, so…
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#129 by nb:

[Frarzana, instead of defending the indefensible, would you please help the helpless? This girl Israt doesn`t look like she was a terrorist, though I will be happy to be proved wrong. Even if she was going about with a terrorist, that`s no excuse for not trying to avoid her in a shootout. I mean this seriously-aren`t you going to do something about it?]

Before anything was written about it, I had already indicated, “Resignations and dismissals make martyrs of people; they do not bring justice to the fore. Is it any surprise that a group of terrorists were caught when they tried to ‘target’ Modi soon after Vajpayee’s utterances?” Do you imagine that in a place where someone can loudly declare, “Who the hell is Satyendra Dubey?” my taking up for the “helpless” would make any sense?

You are right that people ought to be seen as innocent till proved guilty, but then where is the proof of so many heinous crimes committed by Establishment individuals? In Ishrat’s case, there may be every reason to believe she is innocent, but in a general sense I will not say that a simple collegian, 19 years old, cannot be a part of such activities. When I am personally convinced that there is absolutely no basis to her involvement (like I am more or less certain that the whole Modi-martyrdom is being buffered), then I will say something about it.

Re. defending the indefensible, I am afraid our yardsticks may differ. Though you are wrong about this: “she will defend those non-kashmiri militants in Kashmir”. An indigenous movement I talk about is about local Kashmiris. Would appreciate it if we did not get into this discussion here again…I have had my say on the relevant and one non-relevant to the subject board.

Hi veeresh:

Much as I like the name Dhurandhar Bhatavdekar, I am not too sure it will sit well on me. It is quite a weighty name and I may fail to live up to it. But if at all you wanted to give me this idea of using a pseudonym, you should have done it in an email…ab yeh public hai sab jaanti hai…

I liked your post on another board:
[#23 by veeresh on June 18, 2004 8:02am PT
What`s a modern Muslim?
Well, one solitary example could be the middle-aged lady with a burqa and head-covering . . . piloting the train at Sentosa in Singaore . . . full of Arab tourists with their women in Western clothes.]

I got this bit in a fwd…

Barbara Walters of 20/20 (USA) did a story on gender roles in Kabul
several years before the Afghan conflict. She noted that women customarily
walked about 5 paces behind their husbands. She returned to Kabul recently and
observed that women still walk behind their husbands, but now seem to walk
even further back and are happy with the old custom.

Ms. Walters approached one of the Afghani women and asked, ``Why do you now
seem happy with an old custom that you used to try and change?``

``Land mines,`` said the woman.

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gujju: ``Maybe I call you a traitor etc. etc. , maybe I lash out at you , (and at everybody`s favorite target at sulekha - Zafar) calling you unpatriotic , in the hope I can be rubbished and told - `shut the f.. up , I`m as Indian as you are...``` --
dude u r one sorry ass loser -- i think india could definitely do without the likes of u gujju --

gujju: ``It is a fact that majority of hindus see Indian muslims as anti-national people pining for the land of the pure. For obvious reasons - reasons I have stated in my many rantings here. I personally have no idea what Indian muslims think like , because I never really have interacted much with them beyond a point. I do play cricket/football every other day with a bunch of muslim students from Bihar/UP , but thats about it. Its only on the internet , safe in the anonymity of it all , that we get to know `what the other guy thinks` , or discuss stuff like hindu , muslim etc. So the people I interact with , tell me stories about how muslims in Hyderabad fire crackers when Pakistan beats India , wave pakistani flags etc. - and that sort of annoys me a little , and I lash out.. `

-- dude you`re no different from the seemingly ordinary/average white american teenage kid living in jersey who prob has never interacted with any indians but hates their guts and wouldnt mind swinging a baseball bat at them or two -- doesnt matter if u say u wouldnt do that against muslims but man you`re thoughts and what u say is dangerous -- dude you`re a closet racist -- and dont tell me that you`re not coz u just said in your post that the anoymity of the net and this site allows u to say whatever u want about muslims -- so deep down you hate their f

---

ing guts dont u gujju -- or have the courage to say all this with your real name ... i think you`re too much of a complexed coward to do that ......

Farzana, then if the establishment commits crimes for which there is no proof, it must also be given the benefit of doubt. I am happy to disgree with you about local kashmiris, because in any case, they`re outnumbered everywhere.

farzana: ``#108 by FarzanaVersey on June 18, 2004 2:11am PT
In this article there is not one word about Muslims, NOT ONE WORD. Yet, Indian Muslims have become the subject here.``

-- well the reason for that FV is that chowk is infested with pathological paki-haters, esp this board -- and prob since u r a muslim too and writing about such things , they cant handle it -- i hope all the pakistani interactors here, esp the ones who try and be unnecessarily accommodating of these paki bashers go through the trouble of reading all the posts on this board, esp by such wise men of chowk as nikki7777, ralphie boy, shri veeresh jee, gujjubaniam, rsridhar and co.

coolaljee: ``#87 by CoolAL on June 17, 2004 4:17pm PT
Nikki & Kaurasach

Bravo!!!! Well done guys. Please do continue slinging mud at each other this is making BOTH of you look very good right now.

I will let you in on a secret. The more both of you engage in and argue mindlessly like you are doing now, the stupider you both look. As opposed to someone ``winning`` this one, you guys are BOTH losing ground here -- rapidly. People will start ignoring your posts out of boredom. You don`t want that to happen to you now do you?

Can I make a suggestion? I want both of you to focus on ``Paki Bashing`` :-) That is infinitely more fun I assure you. All you have to do is write two sentences and provide a link that paints the Pakis in a poor light -- fortunately for us, that is a ``target rich environment`` right now --and Omar`s hyper inflated ego will do the rest...it is so easy... then sit back, relax and watch him implode....best entertainment on the web.

Watch and learn from Arjun -- who has made this into an art form.... ``

actually reading this and thinking that arjun_M had made this into an ``art form`` was not only entertaining but validated what i have been saying -- calling u guys paki-bashers -- i think my work is done now cool-lul-jee hahaha

veeresh: ``Just a thought ji. I mean, look at the flak I get for being a Hindu Indian daring to write about Pakistan?-- shri veeresh jee its not because you`re hindu or indian but because what u write is generally crap and highly misleading :)

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I do not like to see an Indian woman being shot dead by the Indian state. Nor do I like to see an Indian woman being made the dupe of a neighbouring state Pakistan.