Careless Consciences

Nice article. We need more and more whistleblowers - we can never have enough of them.
``And Satyendra Dubey’s ghost must continue to haunt us.``
It should and it will.

Farzana, I`m intrigued.
If Mahatma could get away with wearing a dhoti, then Sonia Gandhi could also..
If Mahatma could live in a hut, then it shouldn`t surprise anyone that Sonia Gandhi...
If Mahatma could neglect his children, then Sonia Gandhi.., etc. You get the idea.

Also, what kind of actions are going to be taken against the BJP that would personally affect Vajpayee?

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``Manmohan Singh must get it in his head that he is in charge. And Satyendra Dubey’s ghost must continue to haunt us. Our own inner voices must not be meek witnesses. ``

Great article. Only problem is...from here, where?

IMO, give Dr. Manmohan Singh some time. It has been less than a month. Let him win his confidence vote, pass the Union budget and take a few deep breaths.

Till that time, Sonia Gandhi and AB Vajpayee offer enough scope for criticism.

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Hello Farzana . . . analysis is left to intelligent people . . . but what you may wish to add is that the Venerable Poet & Great Shining Leader is now well over, what, 80 years?

Come on, what or how much more productivity do you expect? Gone is now gone.

After all, fact remains, many in the urban areas that I know of voted Congress on the age factor . . . younger is better than senile.

cheers/Veeresh

Then we have the inner voice which defends the JKLF and the Palestinians - but no concern
for the victims at Marad, killing of Hindu piligrims and tourists in Kashmir,
the persecuted fleeing into India from Bangladesh etc. The same inner voice
who would support jihad against India and Hindus, if it would help.

Hypocrite.

Kee mera marg kay ba’ad uss naa jafa say toubaa
Hia uss zood e pasheman kaa pashemaan hoona!

I gotta hand it out to Ms. Versey for letting AVB off the hook so easily. Inner voices seem to have taken over India. Kutch Naa kahu!!!

After he loses elections mr. ABV indicts Modi. The erstwhile former PM did not hear this inner voice about Modi for years. The respected former PM kept his mum then and condoned the act. Now he indicts Modi and may be his own government in the center that failed to even mildly reprimand Modi.
If Mr. ABV had won these elections, we would never have known his true feeling about Modi.

Now Veeresh and VHP assert that ABV is senile!!!! Would VHP had declared him senile, if the respected former PM had said something about Modi right after the Gujarat riots?

He must be fast deteriorating or is he in a better frame of mind at his vacation resort?
Just two months ago he was fine and PM, now he is senile and vacationing!!!

So now what his inner voices would say about other scandals that took place under his watch? His inner voices must be ready to apply closure to many other things such as Tehelka.com, Petrol pump permits etc etc…

Peripatetic pessimism? What about the communist Left, no honorable mention? I guess those who don`t make mistakes, don`t make anything else either.

To err is human
To blame it on others is politics
To blame it on all is pessi.....

Satire

Farzana,

Lets leave him peaceful at this age...

Here is a translation of a poem by Atalji for you specially:)

`Kshama Yachana`
A Plea for Forgiveness

The main tactic of achieving respectability in Indian politics is to proclaim one-self as the direct inheritor of the wealth of values left by the Founders of Indian Democracy. The stronger the ethical heritage claimed, the greater the credibility that can be gained. How true the projection actually is does not seem to trouble most players on the scene. However, the fact remains that even in this writhing mass of distorted versions, there are some genuine heirs, a few legitimate scions who are custodians of the priceless treasure of principles left to India by Great Indians. And those who are such are the ones who are most agonised over the present abuse of this heritage. Vajpayee begs Mahatma Gandhi`s forgiveness for being `guilty of breaking oath, of defiling Rajghat, of forgetting the real aim and leaving incomplete the journey` that he began. `Jayaprakashji, keep faith, for we shall reknit the broken dreams`, he vows in the end, with all the passion he can command

enjoy!!

May be everyone views from his own limited prism.....

I give him credit for not calling the elections rigged, accepting his defeat gracefully and not taking up the issue with the election commision or the courts.

Having said that, you made some good points.

NHK

I have been out for a month, and while it is good to see our democracy being lauded everywhere, I was terribly upset with Mr. Vajpayee and the CBI verdict in Dubey’s case. The ‘inner voice’ has always been a convenient ruse in Indian politics.

#1 by kaurasach:
You are agreeing with me????

#2 by soysauce:
Come on, you need not be so intrigued…the Mahatma/Sonia reference was not meant to be taken quite so literally.

[Also, what kind of actions are going to be taken against the BJP that would personally affect Vajpayee?]

The most important one would be – should be – to get Modi arrested. ABV’s statements now reveal that he is pre-empting any move that might taint his reputation. His utterances in Goa and as recently as during the election campaign would rightfully indict him too.

Rahul, stuka:

Unfortunately, we have short memories. Who is going to remember Dubey? I have often been accused of rushing to the keyboard…as though it is a terrible thing to do, when you have something to say, when you are agitated, when you feel your words may help in further discussion. I am terribly perturbed that while Dubey’s news got an inside page mention, the PM doing his thing with files was front-paged. Worse, I went through today’s TOI and there was no follow-up on Dubey’s verdict, no edit piece. The PM’s lunch, dinner and work schedule again got front page and news of the planned attack on Modi and the VHP response to Vajpayee were prominently displayed.

The reason I talked about consciences at other levels was precisely because of this. We need to think. And stuka, as individuals we can only raise our feeble voices wherever we can, whenever we can…we may have different voices, so let different people hear them differently…

#5 by Sadna:

I have nothing against Dr. Manmohan Singh. But if the PM sends out tepid signals of his role, then we are in trouble. He is quite unlike Mr. Vajpayee, but if you read the VHP’s comment today, about how they do not believe in one person ruling all the time, you would realise that politics is a devious game of shuffling priorities.

PS: Thanks for enquiring about my health on the earlier board…am fine now but, as you can see, deeply agitated about a dead man’s fate in Bihar. One is not supposed to get emotional, but I guess it is too late for me to change.

#7 by arjun_m:

[One MMS doesn`t wash away the sins of the congress....]

Far from it…I think she is merely being a strategist and one can see through it. As for Sajjan Kumar and Tytler, the less said the better. The threesome (H.K.L.Bhagat included) should have been tried together with Kehar Singh… I was shocked to hear that Najma Heptullah has joined the BJP. Not that she did much in the Congress anyway. Such petulance constitutes politics today.

#10 by HP:

I did not let ABV off the hook. The inner voice refrain was meant to be sarcastic. Therefore, we are pretty much on the same page this time…I will not give much attention to the senility argument, for an organisation like the VHP has just decided they want a retirent age for politicians. Do not forget that Modi, Uma Bharti, Praveen Toagdia all fall within the acceptable age bracket, and what have they done? There is danger ahead…

#11 by Satire:

[What about the communist Left, no honorable mention? I guess those who don`t make mistakes, don`t make anything else either.]

To some extent you are right. Also, I have always looked on the Left as an effective Opposition in India and their role has been primarily that of watchdogs. One may or may not agree with their ideology, but they remain the outsiders looking in. A valuable source to keep checks and balances.

Re. pessimism…don’t you feel like that sometimes? It is not a question of blaming it on all, but also oneself. The latter half of the article was examining this…

Hi veeresh:

Hope you are well…you forget that the BJP has many young leaders.

#9 by satyamvada:

[Then we have the inner voice which defends the JKLF and the Palestinians - but no concern for the victims at Marad, killing of Hindu piligrims and tourists in Kashmir,
the persecuted fleeing into India from Bangladesh etc. The same inner voice
who would support jihad against India and Hindus, if it would help.]

Are you not sick of stalking me with the same old thing? If you must know, then the issues you mention are not necessarily due to my inner voice. Why has the JKLF come into being? Who are its leaders? Why is it legitimate in the Valley? Why can no government ignore it? Read what I have to say about Yaseen Malik and what Malik has to say about his position and then talk. About Palestinians, am I the only one who speaks up for them? Look at history. Look at the matter closely. Yes, I have discussed these two often and at length because I think I know a bit more about the subject. I cannot say the same about those fleeing BD. And I have written about Hindu pilgrims, but no one liked the tone I used…I am not here to write what YOU want me to write. Disagree with me, but let us not get into this claptrap about whose suffering is worse.

By the yardstick you use, everyone is a hypocrite when seen from the other side. Let me add here that you tend to transpose my comments with those of the people I comment on. How can that make sense? These are people in authority who can change the face of society and the functioning of governments. They influence how large segments of the population behave and even think. I only express my views for a small number of people to perhaps engage in a dialogue. Is that too difficult for you to understand?
- - -

Digression:
This is a good time to mention it, although I resisted it earlier. Many of those who have problems with my views are free to use this forum to have their say, and have not refrained from doing so. I would therefore appreciate it if my mailbox is not filled with abusive posts. Thank you.

Dear Farzana:
Nice to see you back in full force!
Agree with most of what you say. Have said the same sort of things about ABV myself; but I think that he is now a spent-force and I do feel pity for him the way that he is being ignored by even the two-bits in his own party. You are right about Sonia, her decision was a calculated one - although it will be some time before we know the full story.
I would like to give MMS more time. He is in a very difficult situation. He is not running the coalition; he did not choose his cabinet; whether or not he will be able to govern is yet to be seen. I have my doubts. I think that he should first get elected to Lok Sabha to gain at least some measure of mass legitimacy. And if he cannot govern, he should resign. My gut feeling, though, is that Sonia will not interfere in day-to-day governance. Whether or not she will be able to deal with the Narad Munis is another matter. If she starts listening to them (Narads) MMS should resign; otherwise he will truly become a `khusra`.

Farzana#15
(to satyamvada)
``Yes, I have discussed these two often and at length because I think I know a bit more about the subject. I cannot say the same about those fleeing BD.``

With all due respect, I would suggest that you should try to know more about those fleeing BD, both those for economic reasons and those who are being pushed out because of being of the wrong religion. You should, not only because they are geographically closer to you than the Palestinians but because what happens to them may affect you. I am not saying that it should, but that it could.

[Our own inner voices must not be meek witnesses. ]

Does voting in elections count as acts contrary to being meek witnesses? Or you want to rouse people of India to a revolution?

Farzana,

``Is it any surprise that a group of terrorists were caught when they tried to ‘target’ Modi soon after Vajpayee’s utterances``.

Are you trying to say that these people were some kind of a genuine and indegenuous reaction to Modi`s dubious role in post-Godhra riots? I hope you are not on dope. These were some more ugly samples of Islamo-Fascism led by Hafiz Sayeds and Masood Azhar`s of Pakistan. They kill anyone who comes in their way whether in a real or perceived sense. This is not about Modi or Advani or Rahul Gandhi; they kill even in Pakistan. And people like you serve as apologists for such inhuman and vile vermins by trying to give them legitimacy. If Modi has done some wrong, let the pseudo-secular brigade of Shabana, Surjeet and Malayam file a PIL in some court and seek redressal.

Farzana, I`m mildly bewildered as to what you want to say, but I do agree with the last, that the ghost of Satyadev Dubey must haunt us all.
I thought you seemed a little down and out, but I hope you are better now.
I don`t think Vajpayee is senile. It`s just that nothing holds him back now, and he`s probably annoyed at being made to hold the elections earlier than he wanted, so he`s lashing out.

Farzana/15, quite well thank you . . . agreed, the BJP had its share of young leaders too . . . but on a perception basis, the Congress seems to have fielded a younger lot . . . that`s just one of the parameters . . .

As for apologies, IMHO the whole bunch of ``them`` owe the rest of ``us`` an apology, but since they were and are our duly elected represenatives, we owe it to ourselves to let them try to do their best or worst.

Incidentally, have you picked up the grapevine that the Modi conspirators in Gujarat were nabbed and ``disposed off`` basis inputs from our neighbours? Now that`s something for a few on this website to mull over . . . I personally like this kind of co-ordination, if its sustainable.

Farzana #14
Glad to know you are fine.
Re Satyendra Dubey, even if his murder was indeed robbery or is being covered up as robbery, there are still 2 aspects remaining, over which the government needs to continue to be confronted:

1. The National Highway Authority corruption outlined in his letter
2. The fact that PMO gave out his identity though he had requested otherwise

There are still these causes to be fought in his name, though those really responsible for his tragic death might go unpunished. So far the media and various IIT-connected organisations have made a big noise and they need to continue making a big noise.

Also wanted to comment on this
``What is the PM of the country doing looking at resumes to select secretaries to the government? ``

Isn`t this a healthy trend being set by Dr Singh. Instead of choosing all his bureacrats solely on based those who made the effort to curry political favor with him or Congress in the past years, he is giving a larger pool of bureacrats a fair chance based on their experience, interest and talents.

btw, there was this article about how 4 of his topmost officials whom he chose from past association are Mallus. After getting only one ministerial berth, at last some Mallus in high places :).

FV #14
``Unfortunately, we have short memories. Who is going to remember Dubey?``
Has anyone forgotten Safdar Hashmi?
Thats where people like you come in to play.
stuka #4
Quoting from Dushyant Kumar
``aaj ye diivaar pardo.n kii tarah hilane lagii
shart lekin thii ki buniyaad hilnii chaahiye``

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If anything it is the likes of FV who are the biggest bigots and supporters of the
islamic terrorists.

Her heart bleeds for the palestinians - but does not care to know about butchery
of Hindus in Bangladesh !! This is because of your support for the ``Ummah``

You want to exercise the freedoms that India offers to undermine India by
supporting the JKLF and jihad against India,
Why dont you move to Palestine to help your ummah brethren ?

FV writes:
``but let us not get into this claptrap about whose suffering is worse. ``
Of course you would not be interested in this because people of your ilk are
the perpetrators of the most genocidal actions. You are a parasite
living off the freedom that India offers. Of course you will claim your rights
(as does every terrorist also) without the corresponding responsibilities, honesty
and integrity.

People like you are beneath contempt.

there`s no accounting for intelligence with some of you stalkers is there?

arjun_m, satyamvada I take it that your articles on Bamiyan Buddhas and Bangladeshi Hindus respectively have been rejected by chowk?

Inner Conscience or Outer. Where Is It?

There has been a lot of discussion of conscience.

In these discussions, one conscience has been completely missing. Unless this conscience shows up at the table, other consciences are little more than politically correct nothings.

This conscience should ask: What is so deeply wrong with Muslims or Islam that led to the barbaric burning of close to 60 people in Godhra? Why do they think they should get away with such massacres even in countries in which they are a minority? What steps should Muslims take or what changes should be made in Islam that such acts are not repeated?

If any non Muslim sees a ghost of this conscience, share the news with us. It will do everyone a lot of good.

Dost-Mittar # 17

It is impossible to take part in such discussions without getting to the heart of the matter. The heart of the matter is that those fleeing BD hold no interest for FV, Palestinians do.

Her stand on those Sikhs and Hindus who fled Kashmir is also well-known. They, walked away, she has written, in order to defame their Muslim brothers. Kashmiriyat, it seems, was not important for them. In this whole game of defaming Muslims and Islam, Jagmohan supposedly played the key role. He provided free tickets, and Sikhs and Hindus made good use of those tickets.

Ralph #27
The issues you have raised are correct.
But something I fail to understand is why should FV be criticised on the issues she is not raising?
Criticise her on the issues that she is raising and then raise issues that you feel passionately about,yourself.
``The heart of the matter is that those fleeing BD hold no interest for FV, Palestinians do.``
The heart of the matter is not FVs POV,the heart of the matter is the issues she has raised.
She may be a potential suicide bomber in her real life, for all I care.

Ralph:
``It is impossible to take part in such discussions without getting to the heart of the matter. The heart of the matter is that those fleeing BD hold no interest for FV, Palestinians do.``

I will believe it when FV says so!

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rahul

Further, it occurred to me, that you and I can`t really raise issues of Muslim conscience. Those of us who point such things out know what we have to put up with from Islamists and all kinds of pseudo-Islamists. More politically-correct or people with weaker backbones simply give up.

So here is the rub. FV goes to town doing hai-hai about everyone else`s conscience, but is completely silent about her own. In fact, the Muslim response is to attack you the moment you open your mouth. Quite a heads-I-win, tails-you-lose position of selective conscience keeping by the Islamic community.

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rahul_capri # 30

That is a mistake. Acts of omission are often more potent than acts of commission, particularly when one is in the know.

About FV, she has not even neglected the issue of Kashmiri refugees of Sikh and Hindu faith. She has taken an active and clear stand.

Dost Mittar

Ref: post#16

Quote:

`` He is not running the coalition; he did not choose his cabinet;

Pray on what is based the second (bold part) statement?

No, I will not ask questions like whether you are privy to what/how it has been done. Not at all. Your own word would be good enough for me if you say, you know for fact that Shree Manmohan Singh, Prime Minister of India, has not chosen his own cabinet.



Oh, I must say I do have a follow up question, in the event of your responding. However, that question would have nothing to do with your word. Once you say you know, that would be sufficient.

By the way, I am not challenging or being sarcastic .....

Celina Jaitley, soon after winning the Miss Universe title, had said at a felicitation ceremony, “Last night I had no idea what the title would bring for me. But when I was at the Mumbai airport, a victim of the (Gujarat) earthquake, with both legs broken, came up to me somehow, and said, ‘You are Miss India. What can you do for me?’ I could barely hold back my tears and it was then that I realised the awesome responsibility that lay ahead of me.”


ouch. all this when a true sympathiser is available in person to all qualified victims in Taj Cofee shop.

Dost Mittar

Ref: post#16

Quote:

`` He is not running the coalition; he did not choose his cabinet;

Pray on what is based the second (bold part) statement?

No, I will not ask questions like whether you are privy to what/how it has been done. Not at all. Your own word would be good enough for me if you say, you know for fact that Shree Manmohan Singh, Prime Minister of India, has not chosen his own cabinet.



Oh, I must say I do have a follow up question, in the event of your responding.

By the way, I am not challenging or being sarcastic .....

arjun_m, Ralph-
As I told you before, I really am not interested in FVs POV. Besides, I am new to chowk so I have not read her older articles, specifically the one you are referring to. Perhaps you would have protested on what she had said then, and rightly so. Blast her on that board, I would join you.
This does not take away from the fact that she can make valid points from time to time.
Ralph,
``That is a mistake. Acts of omission are often more potent than acts of commission, particularly when one is in the know. ``
I am not concerned about FVs karma either, neither should you be.
``Further, it occurred to me, that you and I can`t really raise issues of Muslim conscience.``
I questioned the attitude of muslims towards the sanctity of Quran on the board ``The Secularity of India`` .
Go and take a look. Noone , I repeat not a single person, abused me.
I will not deny that I expected some sort of abuse when I posted. But it was my misconception.Perhaps it was because my attitude was not of irreverence and hatred but of analysis.The issue that I am a Hindu raising this issue did not bother me, nor it did anybody else on chowk. If again the discussion veers towards this topic, I will raise this issue again. If i feel more passionately, I may write an article too about it.
``While commenting on a FV article, don`t you think her positions based on her own posts is relevant?``
If she posts something here that you feel objectionable ,attack her. But if you are always going to talk about something that has left an indelible image of FV in your mind, you are getting into the way of a constructive discussion that can be had on the valid points that she
has made. There has to be some distinguishing line between people and ideas.

Looking at my report card my father scolded me once ...... `` You Idiot! You cannot justify your worse marks by pointing to someone else`s worse marks ``. Since then, my shudra background did not influence my report cards.

As a person of Backward caste and free from the ``prejudices`` attributed to Hindu religion zealots, I used to have open mind about my relationship with my fellow muslim citizens. We lived in Afzal gunj and Gowlipura areas of Hyderabad during my adolescent years. After closely witnessing the actions of muslims through my teenage years I started questioning their collective ``Conscience`` ( Hint: Extremely violent religious riots and the subsequent actions of Muslim community leaders such as Sallahuddin Owaisi and Amanullah Khan). I am sorry to say that I am yet to get a satisfying answer on their ``Conscience``.

arjun

There was a beautiful and very moving post from Farzana about the minorities in Kashmir. She had asked that if Kashmiriyat was important to them (Sikhs and Hindus), why didn`t they stay on, or return to Kashmir?

If its not too much trouble, see if you can let her enlighten all of us once again. Thanks in anticipation.

Thanks, Arjun # 35. There is no greater enemy of darkness than objective, factual information. Now, it will be fun to see the usual desperate attempts at laughable and ludicrous `contextualization.`

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rahul_capri # 38

With due reverence, I find your arguments extremely simplistic and unconvincing. But since I do not spend time arguing with those who do not pose a threat to humanity, we would agree to disagree.

This is something very new here ....Seems like real time posting....

Is this really the case? Just testing .....

This is something very new here ....Seems like real time posting.....

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Ralph
``With due reverence, I find your arguments extremely simplistic and unconvincing. ``
Yes, i do tend tend to keep things simple. Tunnel vision. Works for me.
``But since I do not spend time arguing with those who do not pose a threat to humanity, we would agree to disagree.``
That was funny. Yes, we should agree to disagree .We are ending up wasting more time and energy than I intended to save.
Arjun, that link is not working.Could you post it again,please?
Kaurasach
``The background is very important.`` Depends on how you take it. Her so called ``agenda,intent and thought process`` wont affect me if i choose not to become obsessed with them.As for the facts and opinions that she puts across the table,I trust myself enough to evaluate them without any context.

gawd, nikki is so out there and lost beyond space, one doesn`t know whether to bring him back, or just leave him there.

nikki,

You really are out there...but you speak the truth about South Indians. And North Indians for that matter...I myself am a Northie, and I`ll vouche for you on this one point. We`re one whacked people.

However, given the way you speak, I highly doubt you`re a southie. Boy, I say boy...you got to much of the shit in the brains to be from the south, if you know what I mean...pay attention to me when Ah`m talkin to ya son...

This discussion has again got into the same hole it invariably does. It happened on my `Murder on Helm Street` board and went on and on...

rahul_capri:

I know they are trying hard to get you to see my `real` side...considering they do it all the time, there is only a real me all the time. However, as you well know, there is nothing hidden, and and as far as I concerned, nothing even sought to be hidden. If you are interested in what the others are pointing out to you, then you just click on my writer name (not interactor name) and you will see the list of articles...most of the titles are self-evident and might reveal what a vile creature I am.

If you are further interested in the issue of my views on militancy and Bamiyan statues, there was a long-drawn out discussion on the `Murder...` board. http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00003304&channel=civic%20center&start=0&end=9&chapter=1&page=1.

Since I do not want a repeat performance here and most certainly do not wish to get into arguments, and yet not be cavalier towards a person who might be interested, my posts 160-164,397,485,497 reveal my thoughts.

More later...

why aren`t Pakistanis interacting at this board.

nikki7777, you accuse northies of hate, but you sound too full of hate yourself man. take it easy. old man vajpayee has some explaining to do clearly. he claims the high moral ground everytime, but his partymen go on the rampage thriving on the politics of hate and divide. think about it. even today when the whole country realises that the economy can not bear the rising oil prices, the bjp is putting up a charade for the cause of cheap media publicity. politics is about policies...vajpayee needs to clarify his.
as for your vitriolic and vituperative diatribes, people like need to learn that the courtesy of allowing people their opinions and influencing them through healthy debate is what culture is all about. South india is rich with culture, learn some of that dewd.

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#30, #38, #50 by rahul_capri

Don`t get me wrong, but understanding the writer`s background *is* rather important because it helps one understand the underlying motivation, biases and prejudices behind what he/she writes.

nikki boy its seems im not the only one who thinks you`re a moron :)

gujjubania,
who gave you the right to decide who lives in India?The India you refer to as yours belongs as much to Muslims, Sikhs, Christians and every other minority as ``````US`````` hindu`s. i grew up in a devout hindu family where i was taught that the message of God is love, not hate. i guess you never read any scripture. all you seem to have read is the mindless political propoganda of self serving politicians who claim to represent your interests.
any indian who goes against the constitution of india is a criminal. are you? because our constitution holds the rights of every citizen of this country equal. let our generation reject this partisan division of people on the basis of caste, religion and class. look at countries like malaysia that have devloped rapidly purely because there is extreme intolerance to communalosm, irrespective of who the perpetrator of the crime is.
lets change the world. we have the power to do it.

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some questions for those who attack farzana ad nauseam:

1) do you actually read her articles? or do you just read whatever suits you between the lines?

2) if you do read her articles, are you capable of comprehending what it is she is talking about? i was under the impression there were intelligent folk here at chowk, but the most ridiculous responses come from `educated professionals.`

3) is there pluralism in india, or is there not? this whole naara of secular and democratic baffles me personally. if there is pluralism in india then for goodness sakes, is dissent not possible? or are you all like indian `bots`? you don`t like what farzana has to write, you feel you have the right and the obligation to disagree with that (rather cursorily and sickeningly, i add), but farzana writes and some of you tell her to pack up her bags and exit india? which brings up a whole other set of questions:

a) who does india truly belong to? or rather who truly belongs in india?

b) why is a person, or persons who bemoan the massacre of sikhs, and one of its proponents being in the cabinet now suggesting that india be cleansed of its `160 muslims` by their going to pakistan? wouldn`t a democratic banda living in a democratic country encourage its thriving muslim population to stay? and you question farzana`s hypocrisy??

c) what is the point in continually trying to prove how much better you are than your `pathetic` neighbors across the border, and tout your democracy and poohpooh on pakistan`s autocracy and dictatorship, when some of you make ridiculous statements such as `leave my country.` how does that make you any better than certain pakistanis who bludgeon a christian man to death and tell him to go to amreeka because he just happens to be christian. (and that did happen, a few years back)

these questions are coming to you from an outsider. and i understand that some of you have little to no tolerance for outsiders, but as an outsider, a musafir, wherever i go, i cannot help but wonder what this is all about. what makes a `patriot`? what makes one person`s opinion so dangerous, or so wrong that people rush to impugn things on her personal life? to make assumptions that don`t exist? to act badly in this movie called `being farzana versey`, and all pretending to know what`s going on in her mind. which leads me to my final question. how the hell are you such clairvoyants that you would know what is going on in her mind? would that the great rabb grant me such clairvoyancy when it comes to everyone and i would be mistress of the universe and all i survey.

farzana is an indian. she is NOT a pakistani. she doesn`t measure what she sees in india by comparing it to what is happening in pakistan, or the plight of anyone and everyone these days in pakistan. and as someone who`s been told time and time again in various ways that i don`t belong here, or there, i find it rather disturbing that this immature ad nauseam attack continues. and she has her own shortcomings. try not to project and fling your shortcomings on to her. (pun not intended?!)

apologies for the interruption.
n~

rajsinghi:
```` He is not running the coalition; he did not choose his cabinet;

Pray on what is based the second (bold part) statement? ``

I am not privy to any info. not in public domain. My statement is based on several reportsd that have come out in the Indian media. The division of cabinet slots, according to these reports, was based on discussions among Sonia, Laloo, Karunanidhi, Surjeet, etc.

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Farzana, you have said some shocking things in the past, but you haven`t here. Why on earth, though, are you trying to avoid what you said? I hope you`re embarassed, it was just wrong about the Kashmiri Pandits creating problems for themselves. They are human beings too, you know.

hmm, omar, and how many people think you`re a genius (besides your mum, and ok, your wife)? just wondering.

Gujjubania

Post#57


Quote:

`` Bibiji..I know India sucks. Isiliye tho kahta hoon ki aap pakistan chale jao. Take your people with you - all 160 million of them ( a la Moses) .``


This is really going over the top...

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I was just wondering what this discussion (of Muslism should leave India) might have been like if there were no presence of Pakistanis or Muslims here at this forum.

Urstruly:
You have a point. While I do not visit many websites, some comments I hear during my visits to India are frightening.

#69

it would be just as frightening and abhorrent as it is with the presence of pakistanis and muslims here.

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arjun:

you must have been on a break from work! : )

you said: i.e. only people who agree with her writings or have a generally positive opinion about it are intelligent...the rest of us are unworthy....you`re like people who said I should like ``Eyes wide shut`` because it was made by Stanley Kubrik and if I didn`t, it`s cause I wasn`t intelligent enough...

my response: your criticism is noted, but the point is not that you shouldn`t disagree with her writings, but that some of the posters go for the personal attack rather than to argue farzana`s assertions with facts. and i`m sure you`ve done this as well (as have i, no doubt) so you should know.

you said: One person asks her to pack her bags and somehow that characterization extends to everyone who disagrees with her writings? quite a leap....

my response: unless gujjubania is the nick for some other posters here, this has been suggested by more than one person. like you, i read farzana`s articles as well. : )

you said:To the people who live there...It belongs to farzana and gujjubania....gb saying he owns India and farzana should pack her bags is the same as Pakiland saying it owns Indian Kashmir and asking the Indian army to leave...It`s just empty rhetoric and doesn`t amount to a hill of beans...

my response: ahhhhhhh. is that what it is? *ponders*

you said: democracy means the banda has a right to demand whatever he wants......democracy doesn`t mean you don`t have people running red lights...

my response: ah! so democracy now means that some of us can demand that our compatriots leave if they dissent. . .now i am more confused than ever.

you said: It makes gujjubania as bad as the person who threatened the christian, not the rest of us...(as an aside, how do you kill a man and then ask him to go to america?)...

my response: (the man was being told to go to america as he was being beaten. . not after he was killed.)

thank you for not doubting the sincerity of my emotions. as for getting a grip, i have been resisting medication for a long time now. have you been doing the same? :)

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#68 by kaurasach

`` It is like here in USA, one hears a lot against the `Great Satan``. But Pakis and muslims from other countries want to run to and live in the hell of Great Satan. I guess the `heaven` they abandon must be worse than the `hell` they crave. ``

Simply the best description of muslim immigrant ``Conscience``.

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This article has tackled one issue properly i.e. of Satyendra Dubey. His death was tragic whatever the reason maybe. Even though his murder might not relate to the highway project but still it needs to be investigated how his name was leaked within the Prime Ministers Office.
FV is trying to read too much between the lines of ABVs statements. In the recent election BJP lost quite a number of seats in Gujarat. It might be that ABV was trying raise an issue wheter the lost was due to Modis governing style or not. It seems now Modi and Godhra has become synonyms. So whenever anyone talks about Modi it must be related to Godhra. FV is deeply affected by murder of nearly 2K Muslims.
I dont understand her statement that India is a country of middlemen. I dont know how she came up with that view neither she explains that in her article.
FV was saying in one of her response that she is not prejudice. But I think everyone has some kind of a prejudice. Its human to have that emotions. But from her views about Kashmiri hindus, Bangladeshi hindus, Hindus from marad she seems to be a bigot than just prejudical.
I dont agree to view of Gujjubania but people have to understand that the constitution gives every indian to right to express their view. Be it Togadia, FV or JKLF. They have right to freedom of speech.

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bleach must be selling heavily on the market.

nikki: your so-called nationalism is err. . nauseating. india will no doubt survive, come what may. but will you. .thaat eees the question. enjoy while you can. :))

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FV writes:
``...most of the titles are self-evident and might reveal what a vile creature I am``.

Huh... now you start sulking ?
You are just a creature who is willing to undermine and abuse the very
system that supports you.

You would love to hive India off , all in the name of Freedom, of course !!
JKLF are great freedom fighters, Arafat is a great freedom fighter - but Gandhi,
the man was a manipulative $%!?......such is your drivel.

It is good if people like you write articles. If more Indians also read what
is printed in the urdu press (both in India and in the land of the pure) then they
will know the kind of enemies that India has within and without.

nooralain #73
``ah! so democracy now means that some of us can demand that our compatriots leave if they dissent. . .now i am more confused than ever. ``
nooralain-
Yes, the freedom of speech should have no exceptions.
(Though there are a few in the constitution,for e.g. you are not allowed to give hateful speeches at times when religious passions are inflamed.)
Its through freedom of speech that you project,deploy and test your ideas,be it as a religious ethnic social group or as an individual,however bizarre they may be.
Its through freedom of speech and interaction that individuals and groups forge their identity in the society and in the nation state.
If we decide to give someone(individual or institution)the right to decide what is correct and what is not,if we decide to give currency to the concept of a moral police, we are venturing on a very tricky path.
The point is that if everybody is given the right of expression and dissent,no matter how they project their identity, the consensus that comes out of such a process would be more just and equitable than otherwise.
The only drawback I see is that bigots, who almost always are on the fringe, seem to bring out the worst in the liberal and progressive people too.
All I can say is that we should always be careful, on chowk, and elsewhere.Hate a person enough and you be like them very soon.

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Nikki & Kaurasach

Bravo!!!! Well done guys. Please do continue slinging mud at each other this is making BOTH of you look very good right now.

I will let you in on a secret. The more both of you engage in and argue mindlessly like you are doing now, the stupider you both look. As opposed to someone ``winning`` this one, you guys are BOTH losing ground here -- rapidly. People will start ignoring your posts out of boredom. You don`t want that to happen to you now do you?

Can I make a suggestion? I want both of you to focus on ``Paki Bashing`` :-) That is infinitely more fun I assure you. All you have to do is write two sentences and provide a link that paints the Pakis in a poor light -- fortunately for us, that is a ``target rich environment`` right now --and Omar`s hyper inflated ego will do the rest...it is so easy... then sit back, relax and watch him implode....best entertainment on the web.

Watch and learn from Arjun -- who has made this into an art form....

oh, for heaven`s sake.
Nikki is just annoyed because punjabis get all excited about other Punjabis in Pakistan. It`s not the end of the world. Only one thing can happen from eating too many stuffed parathas, and I woul prefer not to go into that. He`s harmless.

FV Wrote:
`` I am absolutely certain that is not the answer. The Indian Muslims stayed here despite being offered some kind of Utopia. They felt and feel an allegiance; you could call it roots, you could call it confusion, you could call it a choice, but it was most certainly not opportunism. Therefore, all they expect is to be treated as equal citizens and I do feel they should be as responsible citizens as anyone else...but there are shirkers from all communities present. ``

This is nothing but unadultratred crap !. The overwhelming number of muslims
voted for the partition. That many stayed back is more a reflection of their inability
to move for various reasons.
Infact there were people like Maulana Azad (who is presented as a great Indian patriot)
and other mullahs (who are presently the MMA party in Pakistan) who did not want
Partition.
Unfortunately, in India, we are only told that many Muslims opposed partition - but
we are not told why ?
The reason was that the Mullahs felt that if a partition was made then it would be hard
for them to make India a dar-ul-islam. That is the reason why they did not want
partition - not because of any special love for India !!

But then such facts are uncomfortable. What I do find impressive about
FV is her ability to play the part of a victim and blame others.

Also look how she implies that even though Muslims voted to stay in India they
are not being treated failry. Thus putting the whole blame on others !!
There is no introspection, no thought of why there is not much importance paid
to education, no constructive thinking at all - instead blame someone else
and always be the victim.
(Note: This is exactly what most of the Arab world and Pakis also do.)

Of course, all Indians should have the same rights, responsibilities and opportunities.
One should not sit around waiting for things to be handed out on a platter. One tries
to get an education and tries to make the best out of any opportunity.
But then, we would not need the professional whiners.

Dost Mittar

Post#63

Thanks for the reply.

I did say, there is/would be a follow up question. :)

Now, is there any democracy, including US where an elected President/PM/head of govt can have cabinet completely of his/her own choice/desire? Or is it being said that push, shoves, lobbies do not take place in other administratons when forming a cabinet, and those lobbies/interests are not obliged/taken care of? Well, degree may vary but overall basics are not that different.

Recall, almost similar things were said during N Rao`s tenure too.

what.. madrass regiment is a fighting unit? i thought madrassis are all in EME fixing carburators! did not know.

anyways, the south-north stuff is most entertaining.

Q: why did the mallyali cross the road?
Ans: Tsimbhly

i just luv stereotypes, specially the poignant (read mean).
please everyone participate in the melee..much more fun than discussing this article.

anyways, there seems to be a reversal in migration trends. no more going to Delhi and settling in Minto Road hostels or RK puram while working for govt of india for southies. now its the panjabis flooding to south, stopping in the way in pune or nagpur for an MCA degree.

so now southies are seeing panjabis in their home turf kind of for the first time.

Rahul_Capri

Post#85

Quote:

`` Yes, the freedom of speech should have no exceptions. (Though there are a few in the constitution,for e.g. you are not allowed to give hateful speeches at times when religious passions are inflamed.) ``

I think, there is a verdict or statement of a US Supreme Court Justice which goes like, ``You/one cannot shout fire in a crowded cinema hall``. This was one of the cases/examples to show freedom of speech is cannot be abused or certain limitations are very much there, by one of the Chief Justices, IIRC

Above is merely to inform than anything else.

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People have no problem when Pakistanis declare that Indian Muslims consider Pakistan to be their last hope and that Indian Muslims share Pakistan`s POV on J&K. People have a problem only if an Indian says it. Why? Make up your minds which it is, please.

gujjubania makes such gratuitously rude and racist remarks because he is rude and racist, but also because he has absolutely no arguments left. The economy has not tanked yet as he predicted, meanwhile BJP has not been able to completely reconcile with defeat and define for itself its future path. So as a person who thought that BJP was indispensible , he is frustrated out of his mind.

Instead of making braindead suggestions about mass migrations, gujjubania should concentrate on thinking of how BJP can be a strong and constructive opposition, because that is what India desperately needs from BJP.

Other people here will feel less riled up if they only took the trouble to stick to the topic at hand.

+++

There was a beautiful and very moving post from Farzana about the minorities in Kashmir. She had asked that if ``Kashmiriyat was important to them (Sikhs and Hindus), why didn`t they stay on, or return to Kashmir?``

+++

what kind of bs is this?? do you really mean it? how can you expect to go back to a place where the majority has decided to ethenically cleanse the land off minorities, where orders are barked out of mosques for you leave or to face death?? one just hopes you were one of those who had to flee their homes and were forced to live in tents.


sir, when you read FV`s articles, and I have read every one of them, you know she is just a sophisticated jehadi. read her poem after 9/11 looking for root causes, her article on pandits, on how panun kashmir is a ``dangerous concept`` and how kashmir issue needs to be ``addressed``.

after reading all that, her vomits never go to heart.

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Nikki7777:
[this got posted on the wrong board]
Dear Nikki7777:
I did not want to get into this controversy. Right away, I would grant you that we panjabis are a very emotional people and embrace each other as easily as we cut throats. We are also somewhat of `daggas` (mules) who let other exploit our emotions and lit the fires which make us burn while they enjoy the spectacle. However, others are not blameless. Let me remind you that:
- the riots in India started in Bengal`s Calcutta and were the result of the call of a direct action by a gujerati;
-the partition was the result primarily of the three gujeratis - Gandhi, Jinnah and Patel - and an allahabadi Nehru not being able to work out a reasonable compromise between them;
- a south indian, Rajaji, was the first to agree to the partition proposal;
-the decision to divide panjab was also taken by non-panjabis;
-as stuka pointed out, the wars were not started by panjabis;
-and as far as the regional mess in india is concerned; it all started with a telgu named Romulu undertaking a suicidal fast to divide people along linguistic lines; followed by gujeratis, marathis and others; panjab was the last to be divided on that basis;
-the language fights were started by the hindiwallahs and tamilwallahs; the tamilians went to the extent of immolating themselves to avoid the implementation of the linguistic provisions of the constitution (and we thank you for that!); and
-the first secessionist movement started in the south.

Even at chowk, panjabis are by and large the least hateful posters on the Indian side. On the pakistani side, they are the overwhelming majority of the posters and so are also the majority of hateful posters.

I am sure that you can come up with some examples to prove your point as well. My point is that there is no point in indulging in the blame game. Indians can be proud that they have been able to develop a pan indian identity. You can now get idli and dosa almost everywhere in panjab and you can also find panjabi dhabas all over india including in the south. Let`s celebrate what we have accomplished instead of fighting useless battles. Thanks!

re:this article by Farzanabibi
Thomas Friedman in this latest article compares muslim frustration to the humiliation that Germans felt following Treaty of Versailles after first world war. Latter produced the Third Reich. Collective muslim frustration in its inability to take control of its life is producing Talibanism and suicide bombers. Of course, the teachings of jehad in Qoran come in handy.
Farzana bibi may find Thomas Friedman`s columns in NYTimes instructive.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/17/opinion/17FRIE.html

Excerpts:
(While Islamist terrorists in Iraq and Saudi Arabia are using cellphone technology and cars to create bombs, China and India are making themselves the world`s new-car manufacturing centers and are inventing new profit-making uses for Internet-enabled cellphones — none of which involve blowing anything or anyone up.)

(An Arab journalist friend living in London told me that there is today — sadly — an all too pervasive sense in too many quarters of the Arab world of a once-great civilization having been left behind, not unlike Weimar Germany. Because Germany was already a modern state, it created a massive military response to its humiliation: the Third Reich. ``The Arabs can`t,`` he said. ``So they create bin Ladenism instead, which can`t build a state, only demolish one.)

Bibi seems to find fault only in others and come up with non-sensical issues. This time, it is about ``inner voice``. This moronic woman had the balls (metaphorically speaking!) to take on the Mahatma. Now a days, every Indian who can write a few words on the internet thinks he/she has arrived. My Innervoice tells me that this woman needs a break from journalism.
Why does not Farzana bibi write about the increasing fundamentalism among Indian Muslims (IMs)? I used to be proud that IMs are not part of this ``global jehad`` and used to quote the absence of IMs in Guantanama Bay to make my case. All this seems to be changing. Increasingly, IMs are being lured into jehad. Only IMs have to blame for this.

http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=337432

(Ishrat was one of four suspected Lashkar-e-Taiba terrorists shot in the encounter on Tuesday.

Even as Ishrat’s family in Hashmat Park, Mumbra, was interrogated by the police last night, her mother was struggling to come to terms with the picture painted by the authorities about her daughter.)
Farzana bibi epitomises the problem facing the muslims the world over. They know there is a problem but they do not want to talk about it and blame others for the mess! In the last several years of writing on Chowk, this woman has not yet produced one article about her own community.
However, i did see a silver lining. Shabnam Ali, an IM (from Kashmir?) wrote this piece in the Outlook:
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=337202
(I now believe that just as the ordinary people spoke out against Gujarat, because the dastardly deeds were done in their name, it is high-time that we, the ordinary people of J&K, spoke up. In unison. We must speak out, shout, and scream till our voices get hoarse.I saw how almost routinely, for more than two years now, almost on a daily basis, newspapers, TV channels, magazines, have had an unrelenting profusion of Hindu names and faces lamenting what happened to the innocent Muslims of Gujarat.The situation with J&K is undoubtedly not completely analogous, but I feel almost compelledto demand that we, the common people of the valley, have to let our voices be heard, read and registered, that don`t want any bloodshed, that we do not want any killings of anybody in our name.)

When was the last time Farzana bibi spoke out against atrocities by jehadis in the Kashmir valley? She does not miss a chance to criticise Gujarat carnage but as an IM, does her ``Inner voice`` tell her to be critical of atrocities perpetrated by jehadists in the name of her community?

``How I wish people wouldn’t let sleeping consciences lie through their teeth. Mr. Vajpayee still owes an apology to the nation. Sonia Gandhi needs to understand when to lay off. Manmohan Singh must get it in his head that he is in charge.``
And, Farzana bibi, if she has an Inner Voice, must know by now that she stinks as a writer and should give her pen some rest.
Sridhar

Satyamvada #88

{{The overwhelming number of muslims voted for the partition. That many stayed back is more a reflection of their inability to move for various reasons.}}

The franchise under which the 1946 elections (which came to be seen as a referendum for Partition), and preceding ones starting in 1937, were held, was nowhere near universal. I gather from some digging that there were literacy, property and/or income qualifications. These restrictions would have had the effect of boosting the electoral influence of precisely those Muslims who would have the best prospects of personally ‘benefiting’ from the Musl