Muslims Vs. Modernity

The whole percept of this write up is utterly wrong. Countries and nations make progress or go backwards. Countries modernize and nations adopt new cultures (modernization). Religious groups don’t do any such thing.

Where do Muslims fit in? They are neither a country nor a nation. Muslim is a religious group spread over many countries and many nations. Some of those countries and nations are making progress economically and moving towards modernization. Many are stuck as their economic progress is halted for different reasons.

Lumping different nations as Muslims is inaccurate. When you do that, you actually end up serving the cause of Islamists or the Muslim fundamentalist as that group is driving this debate beyond the confines of a nation and a country’s borders by emphasizing its roots as Islamic or Muslim and not as Pakistani or Sudanese etc.

Islam is part of Arab culture as it embodies Arab or rather Bedouin way of life. Islam is not Pakistani culture. It is a religion adopted by Pakistanis or some Indians in the Indian sub continent.

Muslims in Pakistan or in India or in Bangladesh derive their cultural values and way of life from the land and that is India. There is a fundamental difference between how Arabs look at Islam and how Indians/Pakistani/Bangladeshi work with Islam.
When Pakistani/Indians/Bangladeshi embrace modernization, they will do that based on their own culture, society and economic progress and not part of a pseudo Muslim nation and culture that is being advanced by the fundamentalist to counter the west influences as pointed out by the author.

When Atta goes to a bar before flying the plane, he is merely deviating from his culture. In his mind, he’s not doing anything anti or pro religion. Following the tenets of Islam is part of the culture that he grew up in because Islamic tenets are also his cultural tenets.

Atta was never on a religious mission. He was on a mission to revenge the Arab humiliation and more importantly to violently protest the US support of Israel and the house of Saud.
OBL’s emphasis of Islam is part of his call to retake the political power that has been usurped by the house of Saud. When OBL talks of Islam, he is talking about the revival of his culture. Islam is his culture and not just a religion.

When terrorists behead prisoners, they invoke Arab ancient punishments that were adopted by Islam. The Saudi Govt beheads people as part of its legal system, which is called Islamic.

Beheading was never a part of Indian legal system or even the culture, so it never shows up in Pakistani legal system and by and large Pakistanis abhor it.

Muslim way of life is alien to non Arab countries and nations. That is why Muslim fundamentalists emphasis Islam as culture or call it a way of life by superimposing it on local cultures, they introduce Islamic way of life, that is essentially Bedouin way of life and that includes forms of Hijab, encouraging Arabic style clothing, carrying beads, uttering Arabic words on several occasions, and referring to times of the day based on religious activity. They also introduce Arabic punishments including beheading etc. Daniel Pearls beheading in Pakistan was introduced as Islamic punishment.

Islamist strength is in creating a façade of a Muslim nation so they can pretend to represent a larger group of people. The west falls for it, because it finds it convenient. People of different nations with Muslim population should be able to distinguish between their own culture and the Islamic/Muslim culture which is essentially Arab and contradicts their own national cultures.
Followers of a religion just remain what they are; followers of a religion. Countries and Nations adopt new values and make progress. Pakistanis may or may not adopt western ideas and they will not do it as a part of a religious group.

Lumping nations together by their common religion is playing in the hands of the religious fanatics.

#49 by plats8

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How could anything in a constant state of war provide stability ?
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The Taliban were initially welcomed by the masses especially in southern Afghanistan. It was assumed that they would also win over the hearts of Tajiks, Hazaras and Uzbeks and establish a unified central govt.

They failed to do so, and the war for unification of Afghanistan... became an ethnic and sectarian war. As a result, Afghanistan didn`t enjoy stability. But Pakistan did. As long as Taliban were in control, the Pak-Afghan border was quiet.

Oh man hamidm you are hilarious and your ``interacts`` are masterpieces displaying great comedic prowess. Write a book! publish something share yourself with the world because we need hope and we want to prevail and your ideas have to be heard.

........ why are people so obsessed about islam - part II

.......... since romair asked this question, it got me thinking ......... for most people the answer is simple - because it is an insidious ideology that seeks to destroy civilization and replace it with barbarism .......... but that is not my reason - my pet peeves are rather personal and even quite petty, some might say .......... i talked about the clocks, but never really got into the calender that has caused me quite a bit of anguish over the past few years .......... it is extremely embarassing when you can`t tell your boss when exactly you want a day off so that you an go kill a sheep, or when you can`t tell the dean at your daughter`s school, who is trying to bend over backwards to accomodate the five muslim students, when exactly you want him to declare test and homework free days ............ but that is not as bad as islamic interior decoration ..........

..........oh yes, interior decoration ........it seems that islamic aestheitcs demand that in addition to putting plastic flowers in vases on every table in the house, you are required to put up some mandatory islamic art as close to the ceiling as possible .............these include the gold on black ninetynine names of the diety, gold on black names of the messenger and his nephew and grandsons (for shias only), various surahs from the koran asking him to smite the heathens and grant al-qaeda final victory, an arabic incantation blessing food in the kitchen ............ the only place exempted is the toilet which is considered napak and therefore unfit for islamic art ............ now, i know this is not as grotesque as a statue of a naked man being crucified while his mother looks on with angles fluttering around her, but it is still pretty bad ............

......... i started thinking about it when an old friend was a recent house guest after many years .............on his previous visit he had brough me a marvellous piece of islamic art from saudi arabia and was quite upset when he couldn`t find it anywhere in the house ............ he offered to pray for my soul and was even more upset when i had to consult mrs hamidm to point him towards mecca ............. i was upset when i found out that he had given up drinking .... so i drank to his health, he prayed for my soul .......... i think i heard him in the middle of the night looking in the basement for his precious art .........or maybe he was secretly praying tahajjud like the early converts in mecca .............

......... in part III i will talk about my biggest peeve with islam - joyless sex ............

A suggestion to Chowk Staff:

I think discussing anything in the replies section is fine. But perhaps it would be a good idea to simply create separate permanent sections, where people can debate the issues, which they seem obsessed with, without printing articles on those issues, again and again, on the main page. I say this with all seriousness.

This section could include, titles related to Islam vs. West, India vs. Pakistan, Secularism vs. Shariah, BJP vs. Congress, etc. Individuals could present their views (and take out their frustrations in this section).

Perhaps you could preserve your main page for articles that point to something unique and interesting and informative. A personal journey. A trip through Pakistan or India. Science and Tech. in Pakistan or India. Economic analysis of the South Asian auto industry. Poetry. Write up on famous novelists. Sports etc......

I have been reading articles like this one, for years on Chowk. And have yet to have seen them be appreciated by anyone who doesn`t already agree with them, to begin with. Good articles, new thought, etc. should have the ability to convince those who don`t agree with it. Or at least make them think. Or introduce them to something they were unaware of, before. Not to start more mudslinging matches.........

dost-mittar #53: ``The chowkies are obsessed about islam because the world at large is obsessed with islam.``

The rest of the world became obsessed with Islam, after 9/11. Various people on Chowk, and many writers in Pakistan have been obsessed with it long before. And only some Chowkies are obsessed with it. Not all. There is, thus, something unique about those specific Chowkies (and writers in Pakistan).

And the rest of the world is obsessed with finding out what Islam is. I was seriously considering of studying it furthur at Univ. of Toronto. I went to apply for an academic program, after-work classes, and discovered that not a single seat was left. They had all been taken. The rest of the world, barring a small minority, does not debate it 24 hours a day, however. It just wants to learn it, or about it.

That is the difference.

Writers in Pakistan and many on Chowk, already know what Islam is. Yet they obsess with it. Many present it as the ultimate solution. And the other group present it as the ultimate problem. And then the take shots at how idiotic the other group is. You can take a look at the replies of many individuals, invariably, most of them will be on Islam. Hamidm comments on Islam as much as Naqshbandi. NHK comments on Islam, as much or more than Urstruly. etc. - albeit from opposite directions. Khaled Ahmad of Friday Times writes about Islam, almost exclusively as much as Qazi Hussain - albeit from opposite directions.

And they have been doing this, long before 9/11.

Personally, I don`t think Islam is the solution. Nor is it the problem. It is a religion that is out there. Those who like it, should follow it. Those who don`t should not. Simple. In term of international affairs, far more innocent Mulsims have and are being killed by individuals of other major faiths, than vice-versa. The statistics are their for anyone to see.

Unfortunately, too many people have tried to build their whole careers around it, as newer versions of Qazi Hussains and Fazl Rahmans, and Salman Rushdies and Irshad Manjis.

``You know very well that it is not easy for anyone to leave his religion of birth for a variety of reasons, let alone islam which imposes ultimate penalties for anyone contemplating such a move.``

I don`t agree with this. If today I did not have faith in my religion, and considered it, ``the handiwork of a clever man who used God to do his bidding by putting words in His mouth that suited him from time to time,`` I would leave the religion. I am dead serious. What is the point of following something, on a daily basis, that is just a creation of a human being? But after leaving it, I would stop obsessing it, and would obsess with something else.

What would anyone do to me, especially if I live in a non-Muslim society? Would they kill me? No. Nothing would be done. The reason people don`t leave is because they are dead scared of leaving, due to personal emotional reasons. The question of, ``What if it isn`t a man-made religion,`` keep haunting them. Yet they don`t like the religion either. So they remain in a frustrated stated, more due to their own cowardness, and lack of convictions, one way or the other.

What is even more interesting are the few Muslims who have left the religion, yet remained obsessed with the religion. What is their intention? If I decide I want to have absolutely nothing to do with Canada, and denounce it, and leave it. Why should I then discuss it debate it, built my whole Chowk career on it.

Perhaps, because, they know if they comment on anything else, no one will listen to them. It is quite difficult to write good poetry, write good analysis or economies, or present new scientific theories. But any Tom, Dick and Harry can write on (which is different from about) religion or politics. It is thus big business. And the Qazi Hussains and the Salman Rushdies are milking it for all that they can. Neither one of these groups would be as well known, if they had not linked themselves to Islam, in a controversial manner.

I admire the Jews, the way they handle their money, politics and media. I think we should learn from Mahatir`s statements. The thing that I admire most about the jews is the fact that they came up with a simple word ``anti-semitism``!
Can you imagine what this word can do?
- The power of a word, you can kill innocent prople, destroy homes, deny basic human rights and still if someone raises a finger, you can get away by calling the person ``anti-semitic``

So what do we muslims need in this day and age?
Other than modern education and better public image (to teach people like Mr. Shiraz that Islam does NOT oppress women and freedom of thought) is a WORD. A word like anti-semitism which we can use when people like Shiraz go on a muslim bashing spree.

The most amusing part of the article was the supplementary graph given for the readers to better understand the ``complex theory`` being presented. The author considers USA and Israel as the epitome of modernisation. Examining recent history:

Is the war against Iraq barbaric or Modern, militarily wise: Yes very modern but intellectually its a Barbaric act. Bush is no greater of a warrior than Nek Mohammed.

Is it the oppression against Palestanian that makes Israel to fall on the right side of the graph?

Just 40 years ago if you were a black citizen in US you were treated as a 2nd class citizen, whereas Islam ruled against it some 1400 years ago. 40 years is a very short time in a country`s history. Is that you basis for Modernisation?

The VIetnam war, hundreds of thousands killed on both sides, just because USA decides to kill the spread of communism, is that Modern or Barbaric, you tell me?

Why do you hate us (muslims) so much?

Urstruly,

Ummmmm, don`t look now but Afghanistan was already a stoneage wasteland before the Americans invaded. Between the Mujahideen and the Taliban, Afghanistan was being turned into a place that was pretty barbaric even by our unexacting standards.

BTW, Urstruly, I assume you were in favor of the Afghan Communist Party rule in Afghanistan? After all, the real reason why the Mujahideen opposed the Party was because of its social policies. You know, things like compulsory female education, land reform, no more bribes being paid to the tribal maliks, the abolition of wakfs and turning the land over to the tillers? Or were you horrified at the unIslamic nature of these activities?

..... why are people so obsessed with islam.........

.........i don`t know ........most people say it is because it is killing us?......... but personally i am against the ``new`` islam because it confuses the heck out of me ........ before we rediscovered islam during the reign of hazrat zia-ul-haq, it was easy to tell time ........ we had clocks and watches and when we were invited to someone`s house for dinner they told us to show up at seven or eight or nine .......... we usually got there an hour late but, generally speaking, there was a finite measure for time even though it was loosely followed ............. then along came islam - people started saying things like `` dinner will be served after maghrib`` ............. now when the heck is that?......... after five in the summer and after nine in the winter ?............but five is too early and nine is too late ......... it would be fine if we could drink between five an nine, but it seems that most muslims are averse to any form of entertainment other than watching videos of white people being beheaded on tv ............. in any case, i am confused by things like ``let`s meet between zuhr and asr`` or even worse, ``let`s have breakfast after fajr``............ there is also a secret sect that meets between ``tahajjud and fajr``.......... you didn`t know there was a sixth prayer, did you?..........

......... but modern clocks are still being used by the faithful - except they have been adapted to make them utterly usless........ during the early nineties the chinese in taiwan invented this clever islamic clock, in the shape of golden bait-ul-muqaddis, which wailed the azaan five times a day .......... all good muslims rushed out and bought one and the chinese made a lot of money ........ then came the age of computers and now the ummah can load a program that uses the pc`s internal clock to run their lives ......... it is a clever little program that starts with a tilawat ten minutes before the actual aazan - subhanallah! ........ who says the muslims are against modernity?......... we know when to pray, who cares about dinner

As a non-believer, when I read qur`an, it seemed to me to be the handiwork of a clever man who used God to do his bidding by putting words in His mouth that suited him from time to time. But then, it is no different from other religions where people have created all sort of myths to suit their ends. As a religious faith, I do not see anything in islam against modernity. The five pillars of islam are kalima, namaz, roza, zakat and haj. As long as muslims stick to them, they cause no problem to themselves or, what is more important to me as a non-mulsim, to others. I would indeed speculate that the reason why one does not see the kind of grinding misery in the middle east or even Pakistan that one sees in a country like India is probably due to the empahsis on zakat and philanthropy in islam.

The problem arises when one brings in the political islam into the picture. The five pillars make no mention of dar-ul-harb, blasphemy, umma, jihad, sharia or even the immutability of quran. So, the reform movement in islam, if it is to succeed, has to emphasise the separation of political islam from the faith as represented by the five pillars. Can it be done?

Romair:
The chowkies are obsessed about islam because the world at large is obsessed with islam. You know very well that it is not easy for anyone to leave his religion of birth for a variety of reasons, let alone islam which imposes ultimate penalties for anyone contemplating such a move.

On a lighter vein, I know that many good muslims coming to Canada claim to be an ahmedi to qualify for a refugee status, I wonder when they will start claiming to be murteeds for the same purpose:-).

14-hamidm 2

I entirely agree with you. We will have to give a new iterpretation to Quran to put an end to this modern `Munafiqat`; peoples parading as liberals but playing to the tune of the exteremist mullah. Take the example of Bhutto. He paraded as a liberal and even a sociaist, but he succumbed to the mullah and turned the very constitution of Pakistan into a `Fatwa` without any qualm of conscience. Then comes Musharraf with all his clamour to be taken as Kamal Atta-turk but sccumbing to the mulla by withdrawing his proposed amendment in the law of blasphemy and making a show of himself as a ritualistic muslim on media to be in their good books. What a pity!
In fact for a thousand years muslims have ceased to be honest, stopped thinking and started to follow the line of least resistense, i.e., the line of `Munafiqat`, a God- forsaken people.

re: #42 by Romair
``Why are people (including many on this site) so obsessed with Islam? ``
Heard the latest news? An American beheaded by Islamist terrorist. There is your answer.
Sridhar

HisExcellency #41,

``They were in a perpetual state of war, and never established a central court system, a parliament or a constitution. ....

PS: The only reason Pakistan supported Taliban was that they provided stability...``

How could anything in a constant state of war provide stability ? The reason Pakistan
supported the Taliban was unenlightened self-interest, or lack of strategic vision if you
will.

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Hamidm is not just funny but lso great! I think he is one of the few people here who realise that there is more truth in traditions than in history.

The Indian sub-continent has traditionally shown that only the benign and the forgiving survive and move forward, be they kings or priests. This will happen again, too.

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