Muslims Vs. Modernity

Romair #42
``Bhai sahib, if you don`t like Islam (or any other religion for that matter), just leave it. Join another religion. Or become an athiest. Move out of Islamic societies, into non-Islamic ones, and have a good time. Enjoy yourselves.``
Something like saying, if you dont like your family, leave it.
You are typifying the mullah view of Islam.Islam won`t change, you can quit if you like.
``Why not just stop obsessing with the Arab-looking Pakistanis, leaving them to their own ways, and enjoy the Lakers game or a Red Wings game or a Leafs game?``
We still do that, but we also worry when there is carnage in Karachi or Gujarat .

The graphical showpiece here reminds me of Tawaseen but that was different. Much more appropriate and coinciding with spirit of the message.

# 42 Romair

``Bhai sahib, if you don`t like Islam (or any other religion for that matter), just leave it. Join another religion. Or become an athiest. Move out of Islamic societies, into non-Islamic ones, and have a good time. Enjoy yourselves.``

Will his co-religionists then let him live? Are there any laws in Muslim countries which allow that? Or are you advocating leaving the country along with the religion?

- Avkrishna

Dear #41 by HisExcellency on June 18, 2004 3:13pm PT

Thanks for your questions and the questions of all others. The most pressing question that everyone is asking is how is Nazi Germany more Islamic than Pakistan?

I have submitted a clearer version to editors@chowk.com and it answers all of your questions and gives you much much more. Write to them and ask them to publish the edited version.

Please pardon me if I am not addressing your most pressing questions right away but if they don`t update the article then you can email me directly with questions.

Why are people (including many on this site) so obsessed with Islam?

There are certain inviduals, who just debate Islam, twenty-four hours a day. What is the cause of this obsession? One sees it in Pakistani newspapers, as well. Pick up the Friday Times, and there will be writers, who will just debate Islam. How the Taliban are going to take over, and they are the last bastion of defense against them. They will never review poetry or economics or science. They will always review books on religion, and tell everyone how idiotic the writers are.

Bad weather in Pakistan. Cause of problem, Islam. Low economic growth. Cause of problem, Islam. Mother-in-law has diarohhea. Cause of problem, Islam. I can never figure out such individuals.

Bhai sahib, if you don`t like Islam (or any other religion for that matter), just leave it. Join another religion. Or become an athiest. Move out of Islamic societies, into non-Islamic ones, and have a good time. Enjoy yourselves.

After doing the above, don`t bother the people who are not willing to follow you. Let them live with their Islam and their five prayers and their desire to wear Arabian thobs. Why does it bother you? If they want Islam and a 5% rate or growth, rather than no Islam and a 7% rate of growth, so what?

Unfortunately, there are too many people, who don`t have the courage to leave Islam, even if they hate it. Nor do they have any interest in not obsessing with it. I think the mullahs and such individuals need each other to survive. If they mullah were to disappear today, what would such individuals comment about? And if such individuals were to disappear, what would the mullah comment about?

The more I meet such individuals (who, instead of leaving Islam, are obsessed with it), the more I am starting to see a trend. Their anger is due more to personal events in their lives. They supported the Jamaat-i-Islami and now regret it. Or they supported Zia and are now out of favor. Or they had an ustaad or a relative who used religion to terrorize them.

Such problems should be diagnosed outside the domain of religion. One should either blame one`s self (for joining Zia or JI) or blame the individual who used any religion to terrorize. I really don`t think taking one`s frustration out on any religion is going to solve any problem...For example if people in Pakistan want to copy Arabs, what is yellling and screaming from the USA going to do.

Why not just stop obsessing with the Arab-looking Pakistanis, leaving them to their own ways, and enjoy the Lakers game or a Red Wings game or a Leafs game?

Why so obsessed?

re: A. Shiraz

There are also a few problems with your 2-dimensional chart.

1) The Y-axis is labeled ``Westernization`` (top, center) and ``Islamization`` (bottom, center). Essentially you are contrasting Westernization with Islamization. But Islam is spreading like wildfire in the West itself through immigration, conversions and high birth rates. There are millions of Musims in Europe and US. So Islam is not exactly an anti-thesis to Westernization.

Secondly, you just represent Islam on the Y-axis and forget about Judaism, Hinduism and Christianity. If your intention was to compare religions, then you should have compared Islam with Christianity, or Islam with Hinduism, or Islam with Judaism.... instead of comparing Islam with Westernization.

But if your intention was to compare Secularism with Theocracy, then you should have compared Westernization with Theocracy (or Religious Nationalism).... instead of comparing it with Islam.

2) Nazi Germany ranks higher than Pakistan on the Islamization scale! How can a country with 100% Christian population, be more Islamized than a country with 95% Muslim population (Pakistan) or even 12% Muslim population (India)?

3) China is an athiest country yet you have placed it below Sweden and USA in westernization. What exactly do you mean by Westernization? Do you mean democracy? Do you mean secularism?

4) Taliban and 7th Century Arabia rank the highest in Islamization (on your chart).
But these societies had very little in common. The Muslim State established by Prophet Muhammad at Medina promulgated an elaborate constitution called the Charter of Medina containing 43 fundamental rights, 23 of which were granted to Jews of Medina. Moreover, a Jewish elder was appointed as the Minister of Jewish Affairs and took all decisions regarding them. The same Charter was extended to all of Arabia when Mecca fell to the Muslims after the Treaty of Hudaibiya.

After the fall of Mecca, a general amnesty was announced for all who surrendered or took refuge in the Kaaba. Even during the wars fought between Muslims and infidels, the Prophet allowed the prisoners of war to win their freedom if they could teach 10 Muslims how to read and write.

In contrast, the Taliban didn`t respect the rights of Hindus or even fellow Muslims. Prisoners of war were invariably executed. Instead of promoting education, they were closing down schools. And moreover, they never created any constitution or Charter to define the rights of citizens and the powers of the state.

5) You placed 7th Century Arabia in the lower left corner. I can understand that 7h Century Arabia was not exactly modern. But it wasn`t barbaric either. Laws were introduced to ban the slaughter of newborn girls. Unlike pre-Islamic Arabia, 7th Century Arabia didn`t suffer from continuous internecine and tribal wars. Fear of death penalty had reduced the number of murders and rape incidents.

Most Western historians also believe that Islam brought peace to the Arabian peninsula and unified the warring Bedouin tribes.

6) Why are Japan, Malayasia and Indonesia missing from this chart? Since these states have successfully managed to combine modernity and Islam (or Shintoism), it seems you have decided not to include them. These states would easily fall into the lower right corner of the chart.

Either you have some preconceived notions about Islam... or your are really confused about the meaning of the terms ``modernization``, ``barbarism``, ``westernization``, and ``islamization``.

#26 by Ralph

There are of course many Muslims, especially the Wahhabi zealots who cry foul whenever anybody raises questions about their edicts. But if this article was about such Wahhabi zealots such as Taliban and Saudis, then this article should have been labelled Wahhabis vs. Modernity. I have no problem with that title.

But when the author uses the title Muslims vs. Modernity, it is only reasonable to expect him to study the various fiqhs (persuasions) in Islam before delivering a verdict. When you judge something before analyzing it completely, you are pre-judging it. Hence the term, pre-judice.

There are dozens of Muslim states in the world, each with a different implementation of Islamic law. The Malayasian and Indonesian models are much different from the wahhabi model implemented by Saudi Arabia. There is also the Sufi model followed in Tunisia and Morrocco. And then of course there is the Shia model followed in Iran and the composite model of Pakistan.

The Taliban model was not really a model. They were in a perpetual state of war, and never established a central court system, a parliament or a constitution. They claimed to be Wahhabi, yet they didn`t even implement the Wahhabi fiqh properly. Therefore Taliban system was neither Islamic nor even a system. Apart from Islamophobic propagandists, few Muslims refer to the Taliban system as a reference model.

PS: The only reason Pakistan supported Taliban was that they provided stability and enjoyed the support of Pakistani Pashtuns. They were never considered the role-models or mentors by the overwhelming majority of Pakistanis.

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urstruly #31
``I think it is little late now to give us sermons on niceties like modernity and westernization.`` I agree with you here. Iraq was nothing but one big hate crime.
Lets talk about evolution reform renaissance then.Dont you feel the need to think about Islam, in light of the problems we have in our own backyard, in India and in Pakistan?
We cant blame it all on USA.
In light of that we need to think seriously about the points hamidm and others has raised.

arjun_m#34
Funny and sad site. I liked the camels too.

apprently to protest western ``fathers-day`` the saudi guys beheaded the New Jersey father in response to his son`s appeal.

http://us.rediff.com/news/2004/jun/18saudi.htm

#31 by Urstruly

`` It is time that we should start telling these crusaders to take their modernization and westernization and all other -izations and shove it. As a matter of fact a global resistance is already doing that. ``

I appreciate your sincere efforts in escaping all this awful ``modernization`` in western countries by moving back to whatever the mud world ( or should I say ``third`` world or the ``turd`` world ) you came from. And when you are back there, would you please tell your brethen standing outside western embassies to shove their western visas back in to the compound walls of the respective embassies.

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As always I defer to HamidM, not only because I suspect he has two very attractive daughters my age but also because he is hilarious and has somehow survived the assault of the Islamists.

Everyone could learn from Sir Hamid.

Yeah, but Hamid is still really funny...

I think it is little late now to give us sermons on niceties like modernity and westernization. These issues were raised by West to find an excuse to invade Muslim lands. They had to demonize the `enemy` somehow. I think they were content that case had been made when they started invading Muslim lands two years ago. And since then they have attacked and destroyed two Muslim countries into stone age wastelands and killed a well over a hundered thousand Muslim men, women, and children. Hundereds of thousands other Muslims are being incarcerated in concentration camps, jails, and detention centers all around the globe. Half of the countries in Middle East are under their direct occupation with the presence of world`s most lethal war machine and rest of the countries are weakened by their intrigue and state terrorism. It is little late for sermons now. It is time that we should start telling these crusaders to take their modernization and westernization and all other -izations and shove it. As a matter of fact a global resistance is already doing that.