Muslims Vs. Modernity

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I can`t help agreeing with Vertex. Take for eg., Canada free nation and westernized, but who would want to live there? given the economic situation.

I think that in order to be a sane logical human being, you dont have to take sides with any one idea or philosphy. Being anti-fundamentalist does not necessarily make one Westernized. And Western culture appears the center of freedom, but is it really? Every individual has to think for his/herself, it is blind following that leads to extremism (on either side of the continuum). Only a fool would believe that Western culture is perfect.

And freedom comes with cost and many people don`t understand that. Western European culture of today reflects the learning experience they had with the world wars. Do not forget that they are just as much of warmongers as anyone else. It is the nature of the beast. One of the major reasons Saudia has become center of warmongers is because they have too much money obtained too easily and have too much time to cook up fundamentalist ideas and fund such activities.

The best way out of extremism is moderation and understanding of basic human nature. It seems that the author lacks both.

BTW Shiraz, where did you get the graph? And what data do you have to back up such conceptual illustraions? Or is it an arbitrary notion of yours?

don`t know what islam is for itself and don`t need to know. carlos worked with/for the PLO, didn`t he? blackseptember etc. ?

You have your causation mixed up.

Moderntiy is founded on a strong economic and technological base. Any ideology based on modernity (only two, really: communism/soclialsm and democracy/capitalism) uses their advancements in this particular area as the penultimate guage of success.

Take away $$$, and you`ll have people lining up to go to repressive places like China for a job. Economic and technological realities are used as the beadrock for idelolgical vapour. Everywhere.

So, this article`s obfuscation doesn`t say anything in the end. If Muslims want to go forward, well...the way forward is clear.

``. He is now seeking the refuge of a civilization that progressed in the absence of his beloved philosophy. All that he believed since his childhood, all the indoctrination that he received since his diaper years is proved wrong.``

Bzzzzt. Wrong. And the correct answer is: even for those who do have a strong ideological bent, everyone has a limit to which they`ll adhere to an ideology. West is smart to keep a close eye on economy, and ensuring their technological superiroity. The idea that you`d stay in the west, or any other ``free`` nation even if it was economically a basket case is laughable. You`d be with me lining up gettin into other places where the money is, be it China or Suadi.

HE # 10, Arjun # 18

No system that is real will ever be described as Islamic. So Islam is always kept above any serious questioning. It`s a great game Islamists play :)

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.......... there is no hope


... .........here we go again ! .......... all the usual suspects are coming out of their caves to claim that ``islam has been hijacked``, that the muslims are not following ``true islam``, that islam is a religion of ``peace and moderation``, blah, blah,blah ! ................ utter nonsense and gibberish !

................ tha fact of the matter is that all muslims, good and bad, ragard the book as the final word on anything and everything; they firmly believe in a tribal form of government based on nepotism - as established by the four pious relatives of the prohet; they continue to believe that they are superior to the wretched dhimmis; their heros are brigands like khalid bin walid, tariq bin zayad, muhammad bin qasim, mohammad ghazni and mahmud ghori.............. they are mired in their gory past, angry and hopeless, humiliated and suicidal, and there is no chance that they will westernize/modernize without changing their core beliefs .............. oh yes, they might adopt trappings of modernization like driving cars instead of riding camels, but their sickness will not allow them to let their women drive the cars - unless it is for a suicide bombing !

................ here is a list of things that a modern muslim has to do to become civilized/westernized :

1. stop feeling sorry for yourself and stop blaming the west, the hindoos, the jews, the cia and everyone else for your miserable state .........

2. stop living in the past - it is done and over with ........... the mongols had an empire and so did the romans .......... and, in any case, we are the victims of arab colonialism, not the beneficiaries, and it is just as well that the bedouins have been reduced to chasing after camels and blowing themselves up !

3. stop the nonsensical practice of praying five times a day - it is too much..........even a fool can tell that it was military drill designed to brainwash the early recruits and make sure their iman-dulled minds didn`t wander off to worldly things

4. stop emulating the arabs - they might have invented islam but they don`t own it ........... over the last ten fifteen years there has been an alraming trend in the rest of the muslim world to copy the bedouins in dress, language, mannerisms and stupidity ............ women are running around in abayas and whatnot; men are going around with tasbeehs in hand, spouting off arabic phrases like jazakallah and inshallah; kids are being taught arabic in school........... the rest of the world is putting on pants and building opera houses while the muslims are donning nightgowns and building yet more mosques!

5. give up on the silly notion that the koran is the infallible word of god - now that is a tall order! ............. this notion is the basis of all evil .......... how can you argue with god? how can you change anything if that which you seek to change claims perfection and you believe in it?.................it is truly hopeless and, therefore, i must stop here ..............


p.s. ..........it is truly hopeless because the disease is highly contagious............ a couple of weeks ago i was in pakistan and talking to my daughter on the phone... she asked me when i was coming back ... ``wednesday, inshallah``, i replied ............ there was a stunned silence at the other end followed by a scream, `` dad, did you say inshallah!..... mother, abu just said inshallah``............ needless to say i was ashamed and apologized to my young impressionable daughter for bringing god into my travel plans!

What`s a modern Muslim?

Well, one solitary example could be the middle-aged lady with a burqa and head-covering . . . piloting the train at Sentosa in Singaore . . . full of Arab tourists with their women in Western clothes.

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I thought your petition on secularization of pakistan was a gem for it`s clarity! I can understand the concept of ``modernity`` with reference to your petition- but I believe most of the readers are confused to understand it`s segregation from ``westernization``.

ahh and Arjun again -- someone who really shows Indians real face -- they all hate us --thanks to Mughals :0)
about Muslims and Islam is concerned , we don`t realize one thing its that Islam is often mixed with cultres ie, Arabic Culture and Pashtoon Culture

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like offering 5 time namaz in Pashtoon Cultre is `tribal cultre` -- while at the same time its part of cultre to indulge in `homosexuality, wheer being a top is alright`

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one example .

My apologies to those who found this confusing.

This was the first draft and I typed this while riding a bus (imagine doing this in a bus in karachi- that is the productivity of freedom where women may SAFELY sit amongst the men). I never thought this would be accepted or even published before my other submissions.

Is there another venue where I could have submitted this? For those who feel they understood my premise but thought it was poorly made constructed or written please feel free to give me a few pointers on making my points clearer (in terms of constructing it).

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``It would be like claiming that Salman Rushdie, a victim of Islam, reflects the greatness of Islam and Islam’s hand in making great writers. It would be like claiming that the victims of Islam like Avicenna and Averroes reflect the greatness of the Quran. It would be like taking credit for what Islam is not, never has been and never can be.``

Islamists make similar claims every day, everywhere. Whether their distorted minds really believe in such fancies or whether they utter such nonsense only to keep the faith will be interesting to find out. I guess Islamists like Ansari really believe in the myths of Islam, Islamists like catch_out mouth them inanely because they can`t think any better, and Islamists like hobbyty and Romair construct them strategically.

Hamidm2 # 14

Welcome back. With your crystal clarity.

NHK