Muslims Vs. Modernity

Nice write

yes dear mr solitude -- i want to know that as a reader and probably because my background in journalism has something to do with that -- as for you saying: ``

``This is what I mean by blaming or castigating the messenger as opposed to seeing the ideas behind and judging the article based on the merit and the ideas presented. I am not the only one who picked this up Mr. Quraishi. This is what I mean by ``dividers`` who chop this country up according to religion and sect and ethnicity and race. I am not going to let you get away with this remark and neither have some of the other respondents. It is nice to hear that your office is air conditioned, you must be a very important person. With all due respect, have a great day sir. `` -- yes sir, you are the only one who seems to have picked this up, because you are the only one ranting about it --

``I am not going to let you get away with this remark and neither have some of the other respondents.`` -- my comment on you being highly complexed about a very simple question is justified by this -- u seem to be attributing motives to me which you have made up in your own mind mr shiraz -- and pray tell me how will you `not let me get away with this` ???
Which other respondent on this board made an issue of this question by the way ?

I think you need to get some issues sorted out mr shiraz -- seriously.........

Regarding #107 by omar_r_quraishi on June 28, 2004 4:56am PT

You used words like ``complexed`` and then claim to have left Karachi? I am amazed.

Ok so you just wanted to know my name (full name) because you are a journalist right?

Is that it? Is that what you tell people after saying this:

`` i think readers should know whether this article was written by a disillusioned muslim who left it or by someone who wasnt a muslim ever .... ``

This is what I mean by blaming or castigating the messenger as opposed to seeing the ideas behind and judging the article based on the merit and the ideas presented. I am not the only one who picked this up Mr. Quraishi. This is what I mean by ``dividers`` who chop this country up according to religion and sect and ethnicity and race. I am not going to let you get away with this remark and neither have some of the other respondents.

It is nice to hear that your office is air conditioned, you must be a very important person. With all due respect, have a great day sir.

solitude sahib you`re funny hahaha -- dont know who is letting the heat get to them and who is being sanctimonious here -- and dont worry for my well being because my office is quite well airconditioned -- my question remains unanswered -- you seem to be so complexed about this issue that it would be futile to follow this any further -- as a journalist and an editor (and by extension as a reader) i would always want to know at least the full name of the person who writes a piece -- esp when i have seen a familiar name on some other stuff that might have gone by my eye --

#105 by omar_r_quraishi on June 26, 2004 0:42am PT

Please read your question. You qualified your question with ``so we may know if this is a disillusioned Muslim``?

What does this have anything to do with quality (or veracity) of the ideas presented. These are not my ideas anyway. I claim no originality nor credit for this but I do find them appealing and thought it would interest the rest of you.

I am not the only one who thought this was an inappropriate question. As most agree at best it was a stupid question.

Now Mr. Quraishi temper your sanctimonious rage, avoid the Karachi heat getting to your head and aggravating your disposition. We are in civilized society here and I have already apologized for calling you a pathetic person for invoking my religion through my name. I think you are wrong in invoking or referring to my religion through the use of my name and I have already explained what A stands for. Now is your life so boring that you must get worked up over this any further? If you must you may but you don`t have to you know.

solitude janab -- plz get THIS -- i asked u a PRETTY SIMPLE question -- as in what does the first letter in your name stand for ?? - i think that is pretty simple isnt it -- could you perhaps have given me a straight forward yes or `choose not to answer` response?


``To conclude the brand of DIVIDERS or men who attack us Pakistanis on basis of religion or sect are cruel and unjust. The people of Pakistan and the Islamic world are realizing that the men who invoke allegiances based on religious bias are men of violence and discord and barbarism. The people of the west are realizing that they are capable of similar evils and are seeing in us a reflection of their past. The question is are you on the side of a modern reformed secular Pakistan?`` -- ????? no janab, the question was what does the A in your first name stand for ????

Mr. Qureishi I go with my instincts.

If my instincts were right you were questioning my motivations for writing this piece by referring to my religion and my anglicized name.

A personal attack against one NOT based on the ideas one present are abhorrent to any sensible human. So if you imply my disloyalty or ulterior motives based on my name or my alleged ``disillusionment`` it is wrong of you to do so.


However I am fallible and we are beseiged DESPITE the numbers that gather to the side of reform! We are on the side of modernity and the course adopted by those who love liberty and we prevail.

If I misunderstood your motivations then I would apologize but since you have not yet clarified your position I am thinking MAYBE I was right in castigating you. Since instead you have implied that I would be nicer to you if I was submitting this piece to Dawn (you being an assistant editor of the paper) I am thinking for implying obeisance for profit or press should be enough reason why I should not apologize to you.

Nonetheless I view myself as someone who should not stoop to counter personal attacks (implied, perceived or otherwise) with the same. Therefore I will apologize because I ought not to have stooped to such harshness either way. If I misundertood your motivations and I will assume that I did misunderstand you then I apologize for my harshness and my personal attacks.

To conclude the brand of DIVIDERS or men who attack us Pakistanis on basis of religion or sect are cruel and unjust. The people of Pakistan and the Islamic world are realizing that the men who invoke allegiances based on religious bias are men of violence and discord and barbarism. The people of the west are realizing that they are capable of similar evils and are seeing in us a reflection of their past. The question is are you on the side of a modern reformed secular Pakistan?

#101 is not my post.

My post was this:
omar_r_quraishi #98
Thanks, but that is good news as far as I am concerned. Here is finally some tangible benefit of having a Cong. govt at the center - that clear information is demanded from the Gujarat govt.

dost-mittar,

As a member of a first-generation community, can you please tell me what`s wrong with an `in-your-face` attitude? And I am asking this in an in-your-face manner as possible :-)

A discussion that was between I think Vertex and another about exactly this issue on the previous Hijab board was quite informative. Needless to say, I think he was spot-on. The crux of his argument was that in-your-face expressions of `otherness` is part and parcel of this culture, so that alone is an insufficient reason to question the Hijab.

This leads, of course, to your `dar-ul-harb` statement, which is rather uncalled for. The implication being of course that the Hijab is in fact an expression of political hostility, rather than assertion of identity or the perceived fulfillment of religious obligation. There is a world of difference, the difference only being bridged by projected sentiment which is more an act of hostility towards the Muslim community rather than one emanating from it. Such sentiment should not be pandered to.

There is hypocrisy at work (which I am not accusing you of, btw) when those who suggest that the Hijab will somehow lead to ghettoization yet express a sentiment that those who wear it at work, etc. are being condemnable social miscreants. Here, by not being ghettoized, they are being offensive, and the only solution is to have them either ``conform`` (or rather, to placate) or to ghettoize. It`s no doubt a nice position to occupy for those who wish to be antagonistic...

#99 by bongdongs

there must be some mistake. i think the ``govt`` is too busy right now with Iraq/Abu Gharib etc.

#98

Goverment ribs army on WANA operations

By our correspondent

ISLAMABAD, June 22: The Pakistani goverment has painly told the Army to provide a comprehensive report with quality proof...
... army chief Gen Musharaff has been asked to appear before a joint parliamentary committee investigating the allegations of rape and torture during WANA operations. Gen Musharaff will cut short his visit to China to appear before the committee on Friday. Speculation is rife in Islamabad that Gen Musharaff may be asked by the government to retire prematurely due to his bungling of WANA operations.

#82 by solitude on June 21, 2004 6:41pm PT
#73 by omar_r_quraishi on June 21, 2004 6:44am PT

Regarding my name, Is it Arthur Shiraz or Athar Shiraz.

Mr. Quraishi since in most likelihood you have not stepped out of karachi I would like to inform you that the anglicized version of Athar is to ease communication with my American friends. I know of a lot of Xiao from China who use the name Steve because Xiao is harder to pronounce and a lot of Pervaiz`s who go with Peter or Pete and a lot of Jews who have Anglican names and Hebrew names (Yaqub call themselves Jacob).

Does that clear up your insinuations ? I am an open book. I lay no claim to being a Mullah. I do lay claim to kinship with the Muslims of the world because I was one before and I know how they feel and the Muslims know how I feel and they can relate to me quite well thank you (quite a lot of them).

What have you got next ? Will you next question my motivations as a Pakistani like your kind isolates and persecutes Ahmedi Pakistanis because of their religion? Will you next accuse me of being ethnically different (as in the case of Urdu Speaking people scorning the Punjabis as Paindoos and the rest of Pakistan looking down upon the Pathans as Niswar Choos?) What is next will you then question my credibility based on the color of my skin ?

You are a pathetic specimen sir and you are damaging our own people by such insinuations when you have no arguments to present. Its INDECENT and parochial and utterly evil that once again you try to squelch the voice of reform and once on basis of a name and once again you stigmatize the critic by branding them as the ``other``. That is just low and my fellow country men and women know that.

tch tch solitude jee, i asked u a simpe enough question -- what the A in your name stands for and u have given me a lecture in i dont know what -- and actually i have stepped out of karachi quite a few times -- and i think if u r artur shiraz then you have submitted your stuff to dawn before -- i wonder if you would be so abusive if you had been asked for your full name then ....

hey arjun, sadna et al, even your central govt in delhi doesnt buy this story now --

Delhi ribs Gujarat on `encounter`


By Jawed Naqvi

NEW DELHI, June 22: The Indian government has plainly told the Gujarat establishment to give quality proof that there were Pakistani men among the four people killed in an alleged encounter in the state recently , indicating a toughened stand against communally-inspired rhetoric.

The Indian Express reported on Tuesday that the government was clearly unimpressed by the Gujarat police`s ``evidence`` supporting the Pakistani identity of two alleged Lashkar-i-Toiba men shot last Tuesday.

New Delhi has asked the state police to furnish a more detailed report with sufficient evidence before the matter can be taken up with Pakistan. The report was sought after the Gujarat police approached the Ministry of External Affairs to ask the Pakistan High Commission to claim the bodies of Jishan Johar and Amjadali Akbarali Rana, the two alleged Pakistani members of Lashkar-i-Toiba.

The two men were among the four persons shot dead by the Gujarat police on a deserted stretch of the Himmatnagar highway. Ishrat Jahan, a 19-year-old college student from Mumbra in Thane, and Javed Ghulam Mohammed Sheikh of Pune were the other two killed.

Civil rights activists have accused the rightwing Hindutva government of staging a fake encounter for political mileage. The issue has caused ripples even within the state`s ruling Bharatiya Janata Party as its former Gujarat chief minister Keshubhai Patel declared that the state was experiencing a mini-emergency.

Mr Patel has stayed away from a high-level meeting of the party in Mumbai. ``I am unhappy about the prevailing situation in the state. There is a sort of mini-emergency where MLAs are afraid to express their feelings,`` Mr Patel, who has ``skipped`` the BJP national executive meeting that began in Mumbai on Tuesday morning citing ``knee pain``, said at his residence in Ahmedabad.

#82 -- solitude jee -- arent we being a bit touchy about a simple enough question???

re: mullah and modernity: the case of Imran Khan
Anybody read the latest news? The flashy playboy of yesteryears, the one who has fathered a nameless child living somewhere in USA is, hold your breath guys, divorcing his wife.

This was a high profile marriage: he in his 40s, she in her 20s; he, a famous cricketer with good looks, she a young chic with good money. Many pakis bemoaned the fact that he was marrying outside his religion. Some rejoiced that he was converting a jew into the islamic fold. ``One less jew in this world`` was the common refrain in Pak in those days.

Imran Khan always lived a western lifestyle when he was outside Pakistan. Often, he was known to frequent night clubs and with his good looks, he had no problem with high profile socialite chics. It surprised me that he actually married someone and settled down in life.
I thought this was a case of ``sow choohey khaakey billee haj ko chalee``.

Now, Imran Khan himself has given the most incredible reason for his divorce: that his wife could not adjust to the conditions in Pakistan!
Is this guy a moron or what? Which modern woman would adjust to conditions in Pak society, where so many restrictions are placed. I thought, being a person of western education and outlook, this guy would give same freedom to his wife that he himself enjoyed once. Looks like, that was not the case. So, 7 years and 2 kids later, this woman is now walking away to freedom. Good for her.
Imran seems to harbor a mullah mind. He is perhaps a ``closet mullah:, one who wears his western garbs when it suits him. Back in Pak, being a conservative can get him votes. So, he speaks and acts like a mullah in his own country. I also noticed, not without amusement, how much of a hardliner he was when it came to India. This guy, above anybody else, should be friendly towards India. But no. That will not serve his political fortunes.

Here then is a modern man caught up in the confusing debate: is Islam compatible with modernity? Imran Khan has just proved that it is not.
Sridhar