Muslims Vs. Modernity

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Two words: presumptious generalization!!!

... why are people so obsessed by islam - part III

......... well i was going to write about the misogyny inherent in islam and the rather insipid and joyless sex that results from this horrible attitude, but romair`s last post reminded me of yet another pet peeve ......... it is the tendency of muslims to wet their pants over perceived reaffirmation from the white establishment that they all seek to destroy .......... so now some paki fellow is running for office in the socialist republic of canada - so what ? .......... how does this prove that muslims are well on the path to modernity?......... to me it simply demonstrates the fairness of the system that the white man has established in canada over the last two hundred odd years ........ unlike the khilafat that most muslims pine for, this system does not require the members of the shoora to take an oath of allegience to an arab diety ............ but now this system is in grave danger because soon the muslims (aided by their elected official) will be demanding all kinds of special priveleges - family laws, public beheadings, the right to treat their women like chattel, the right to walk around toronto in nightgowns, arabic classes in public schools, six breaks a day for namaz, etc. etc.............. the poor canadians are in for a rude awakening ............

............. anyway, it never ceases to amaze me how excited muslims get when they see a white man share their nightmare ......... karen armstrong, bernard shaw, murad hoffmann (who?).......... they claim that neil armstrong converted to islam because he heard the azan when he landed on the moon - never mind that the poor fellow has denied it many times .......... they get all excited because michael jackson converted to the true faith - never mind that he is not really white and a pedophile to boot !.............

............. we will talk about sex in part - IV ......... promise


p.s. it seems romair has dropped imran khan and is now supporting a fellow ``businessman`` in canada ......... the man is unstoppable !

I have uploaded the latest version to the following address :

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Secularize_Pakistan

See the messages or the files section. The site contains the latest version of Muslims Vs. Modernity Version 2 (a little more elaborate). It also contains the article Muslims Vs. State. I wish I had more time but I don`t do this full time or even part time.

Mr. HamidM, I am honored to have you write in the interacts of my article even though your posts eclipse my own words :)

Fahadist, have you tried Math lately ? It is founded like all sciences and business and human knowledge on ``generalizations``, models and simplifications.

To all our Indian friends. I am impressed. This is what a secular country makes of its citizens? then I am amazed. I have always envied the ability of indians to make leaders that can astound the rest of the world but particularly the west. Your responses are clear and cut straight through the arguments of the Islamists and the Islamist apologists. I am so close to Islam that I cannot sometimes answer their sophistry. Yet one can rely on the objective third party that is rational. Thanks.

Romair, my father was a fighter pilot for the PAF. Did you know that?

atif1, my friend - a secular (``worldly``) view is for anyone who know how to love. I am impressed by your critical analysis of the FOB but I think you are afraid or upset with the west. This is the baggage of all minorities. You are intelligent though and you can wade through it if you embrace things rather than react to them.


Ralph - the similarities between communism and Islam are many :) I am glad you brought that one up.

As for the graph. It is not detailed enough. If people are interested I can put in the details that will answer many of your questions. You see ``Westernization`` is not the pinnacle just like ``Islamization`` is not the abyss. There are things more evil than Islam (some less evil than an Islamic fundamentalist along the submission continuum)

Similarly there are things better than westernization along the freedom continuum. I wish to put all the countries of the world on it because I think it will amuse and entertain the people and help them see the position of societies along various scales of modernity vs. westernization. I know I find studying these graphs very entertaining.


To all those who are upset. I wish I could apologize to you or hug you or show you the tears in my eyes. What I write sometimes hurts me as I write it and I ask myself often ``Wouldn`t it be easier to ignore it and pretend that everything is ok?`` but I do it with the hope that even if the words don`t come out right, even if it seems terrible you will know that I LOVE YOU nonetheless. I do it because I hope you can say ``Shiraz, you are not afraid of these things, maybe I could try them too ... `` Courage! Courage! I say these words because I know Pakistanis are secure and confident enough to embrace the good!

I am just like you and I am only telling you what I hear and read and understand to be true. I am open. I am not set in my ways. I don`t have anyone whispering in my ears. I am all alone and I am awaiting patiently. I do not have a faith or a belief or a religion like the Jews, Christians, Hindus etc. I am still the same Shiraz. I was what you are now today, I am you!

Tell all of us all you have to say please just be kind towards me and be gentle because I feel a lot. Give me a rational, convincing argument and I will change. Uptil now I have not heard anything new or anything that could change my mind.

All of us are listening and when you cry and shout and complain and abuse us we can only hear one thing ``We can`t really provide an argument in defence of the evil within Islam``. When we criticize Islam we are not criticizing Muslims who are peaceful and don`t follow the abhorrent tenets of Islam. We are criticizing the fundamentalist interpretations.

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Arjun,

The apologists of Islam change their stories and are nothing more than two faced liars. For these reasons they have lost my trust and the trust of the world to the point everyone laughs when they parrot ``Islam is peaceful!``

Thanks for bringing this up. Now the Pakistani governments and their western-eduicated apologists can go on tv and say ``Its not our fault ! The Taliban were created by the US`` !

The apologists of Islam are shameless, lack sincerity or any sense of truth or justice - they just care about overcoming by hooks or by crooks and sometimes they don`t even know the gaping holes in their beliefs and arguments but they try DESPERATELY to uphold something that oppresses all: Islam.

thats why I said presumptious generalization. Ur assumption of all that is bad is islamic and all that is good is western is just a bit to exagurated and very common in the generalization of ``progressive`` people whose favourite pastime is religion bashing. Blaming islam for every ill is just looking for a scape goat. some how the other I dont see Taliban resposnible for the rampant curruption in Pakistan.

My point: If this is Ur basis for stating that religion and progres cannot co-exist then I do not agree with Ur argument as it is based on presumptious generalization

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good question romair #42 -- i suppose they are all afraid of it -- veeresh jee what is a modern hindu ? pray tell ????

a. shiraz -- what does the `a` stand for? if im not mistaken does it stand for arthur or artur ??? could you please clarify?? i think we once got an email from you on dr younas`s case -- r u that very person -- i think readers should know whether this article was written by a disillusioned muslim who left it or by someone who wasnt a muslim ever ....

re: Going down the drain: Paki style
Since we are on the topic of modernity in Islamic countries, it would interest people to know that there is something in Islam that makes it difficult to adjust to modernity. Call it: dogma, clash between belief system and western education that is a must for advancement now-a days but the dilemma exists among the muslims in Islamic countries: should we give up our religion to become better educated or should we just remain ``maulvis``?

I thought that Bangladesh had every reason to be proud of its existence and its culture. It broke away from Pak on the language issue but has found it very difficult to come to terms with modernity. A giant country in the neighbourhood (India) stares at its face every time it looks up. In the last several years, this Bhooka-Nanga desh has now become an active partner with Al-qaida elements.
http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries/bangladesh/

But that is not all. Apparently, Islmic credentials can be established only by killing the minorities. Does not the Qoran say: kill the non-believers?
So, after going thr` an ethnic cleaning itself where its people were killed and raped by the Paki Army, it seems to be indulging the same type of ethnic cleansing with the hindu minorities.
http://www.mukto-mona.com/human_rights/ethnic_clensing_Bangladesh.

Bhooka Nanga Desh (or call it Bangladesh if you will) has no future. It is at conflict with itself. This is a classic case of Islam clashing with modernity. Heck, Bhooka Nanga Desh even has some kind of democrazy. But that does not matter as even its PM actively supports hardcore elements who kill the minorities. It won`t sell gas to India because its hardcore elements are not friendly to India. This has seen an efflux of MNC Oil companies who can profit only if gas is sold to the huge Indian market (let us face it. Bhooka Nanga Desh has little to offer). And, with the new trade agreement (MFA) going into force, this nation of losers will also lose its textile quota, facing huge layoffs among the poor textile workers. But heck, that should not bother them. They think Islam is more important than feeding the poor, who are all dying anyway of hunger.
Sridhar

re: # 57

``the rest of the world, barring a small minority, does not debate it 24 hours a day, however. It just wants to learn it, or about it....``

Not the rest of the world. Just the western world. It is intrigued about Islam after 9/11. There is a surge of interest to find out why some of the adherents of this religion of more than 1 billion people are trying to spread terror around the world. And, what is it in that religion that encourages this?
This is the western way of life. Everything is debated, researched and brought under the microscope in order to understand it. Islam poses a threat to western way of life and this is a legitimate way of trying to understand Islam.
How can any muslim logically explain why an American was beheaded by some islamic thugs in Saudi Arabia? There is no logic behind this act. It is plain brutality. Yet, we do not see a great outpouring of grief or condemnation of the perpetrators of this crime from the muslim community. Why? This is what West is intrigued about and has made a study of Islam an obsession.
On a similar note, when USA started to lose a lot of blue collared jobs to India, there was a hue and cry in the media here (if u have been listening to Lou Dobbs on CNN, u would not have missed it). There was a lot of debate as to why this was happening. Then, recently, when Infosys opened its internship program to US students, a lot of universities jumped on the bandwagon and are sending its students to study in the Infosys Campus and learn what makes it take away jobs (almost 200 students from Harvard, and other Ivy League have joined this program- a 2 month stint in the Infosys campus).
This is another kind of jehad by India and China, a bloodless and technologically driven one, about which Thomas Friedman has written many columns. Which is preferable? I think u know the answer already.
Sridhar

re:#63 by Romair
``Speaking of Muslims vs. Modernity, Pakistan may be about to get its first candidate elected into the Federal Assemblies,...``
Idiot.
How is Pak involved in this guy`s election? As a Paki, u may feel proud but i am convinced that he is being elected because of his good credentials and his good work in office and not because he is a Paki (which is actually not such a great qualification now-a days).
Here is his biography from the www.electwajid.com site:

``Wajid Khan`s life documents an exceptional record of leadership and success in business and public service. As an entrepreneur, he has created hundreds of jobs for Ontarians. His door is always open for those seeking help or support, no matter their creed, faith, or point of origin.

Wajid works hard to resolve conflict - both here in Canada and abroad. Whether by working with human rights committees, numerous business organizations, dozens of cultural associations - or by sitting on policy executives dedicated to refining Canada`s role in international conflict resolution, Wajid Khan believes in the integration and involvement of all Canadians, both old and new, as we build a better Canada.

As a homeowner, husband and a father, Wajid understands the interests and needs of Canadian families today. A strong supporter of amateur sport, community youth activities and municipal projects, Wajid contributes to the welfare and prosperity of Canadians at every level.``
Any mention of his paki roots? NO.
I rest my case.
Sridhar

re: modernity versus Islam
People who are concentrating on Pak have missed talking about another country that is fast becoming a center of islamic terrorism.
I am talking about Bangladesh.
There is no reason why this country should ever have become a refuge for the terrorists. It itself went through a harrowing experience during its inception. The people who killed, raped or sodomised them were there own compatriots. Bangladesh seems to have forgotten all this and has now joined the Al-qaida with a new vigor that comes from being a new entrant to the ``evil club``. Its answer to its problems with India is: to be more belligerant, to join forces with ex-rapists in Pak and shun modernity.
So, here is a classic case of clash of Islam and modernity. Bangladesh has some kind of democrazy (better than Pak one would hope) but that has not resulted in any kind of moderation. It has only 2 national parties: one pro-India and the other, by default, is anti-India. Since being anti-India gets votes for this party, you can see this party indulge not just in anti-India rhetorics but indulge in ethnic killing of its hindu minorities. Islamists in that country seem to associate hindu minorities with India just as some in India make the mistake of associating its muslim minorities with Pak. It forgets easlity that those hindus are its own citizens and that fundamentalism will ultimately hurt Bangladesh more than anybody else. No country will invest there if that country has the image of being a terrorist haven.

Modernity should have come to Bangladesh but it did not. It shares a lot of common heritage with India. Even its national anthem was writtten by Tagore. Still, it does not try to find a common friendly ground with India. Here then is a classic case of Islam denying modernity to a nation.
Sridhar

hamidm:
``but now this system is in grave danger because soon the muslims (aided by their elected official) will be demanding all kinds of special priveleges - family laws, public beheadings, the right to treat their women like chattel, the right to walk around toronto in nightgowns, arabic classes in public schools, six breaks a day for namaz, etc. etc.............. the poor canadians are in for a rude awakening ............ ``

Well folks, this is already happening. The Ontario govt. has agreed to allow muslims to settle their disputes according to sharia outside the Ontario judicial system. The muslims successfully used a precedent under which some obscure jewish sect is allowed to use its own arbitration system according to ancient jewish law.

But if I were a muslim, I would stoutly oppose this move by Ontario. Once a couple of cases come to the public light of mothers denied adequate support or custody of their children based on sharia, there will be the same kind of backlash against muslims that happened in India after the Shah Bano case. The saving grace is that the Ontario govt. has made it clear that the Ontario law supercedes any sharia awards. [so was the Indian Supreme Court which found out that it was no longer supreme when people come out in force on the streets]

dos-mittar,

You read the Post/Citizen too much. :-)

Fear mongering aside, it is both well known, and a very common argument on the part of those who support these arbitration committees that the law of the land will reign supreme. This is not a `saving grace`, but understood to be a part of the design. Ismalis, Christians, aboriginals, and Jewish groups (not just `obscure` ones) have such comities.

The real issue isn`t Sharia, since any judgment of the arbitration panel must be in accordance with the law (there is only one law). The real issue is the competency of those who are running the arbitration panels, and those of us in the community are thinking along these lines despite the willful ignorance of those outside who would wish to obfuscate the nature of these arbitration comities. Either get rid of these across the board, or allow their use across the board. Personally, I would be very skeptical about the quality of the arbitration, so I wouldn`t go to one of these tribunals.

Your point about this potentially becoming an `image` problem...perhaps, but then there`s nothing that can make the Lowell Green types happy. In fact, given the hysteria these types have tried to stir up, it is better for the community to challenge it head on than to roll over and play dead.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1086819009712&call_pageid=970599109774&col=Columnist969907621513

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1087078813623&call_pageid=970599109774&col=Columnist969907621513

digit#79:

I cancelled my subscription to the Post and Citizen two years ago because Izzy Asper (and his son) dismissed the publisher who refused to let them dictate editorials to him. I have recently started getting Citizen again and I do pay attention to the relevant sections of it.

There is nothing wrong with arbitration/meditation/conciliation in resolving personal disputes. They are both less costly for the parities, less stressful and do not accentuate hostility. But when they are to be decided according to sharia, you and I both know the kind of problems it can lead to. As regards the awards being in conformity with the Ontario law, this can only happen if they are not in conformity with the sharia laws, in which case they will simply be an arbitration panel and not a muslim panel. I am glad that people like you are involved in this issue - hopefully the govt. will realise the implications of this ill-considered idea and cancel the whole thing.