Origins of Hijab

T ahmed.

again useless rhetorics.

If you think Gill has used those verses out of context, do let us know. Instead of telling us how ``you have been there and done that``.

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sadna#59:
``The point was that a perceived violation of boundaries of individual or group autonomy does lead to overt assertions of identity as response, as happened with increased appearance of turbans after 1984 and increased appearance of Muslim-specific dress in India after 9/11 (which is what I heard).``

Wasn`t there a backlash against the sikhs and isn`t there now a backlash against the muslims? It is probably less pronounced in India since hijab, burqas and beards are well-entrenched in the public mind as benign symbols of religious as against political identity. The Indian cinema has been promoting the stereotypes of kind and gentle bearded Kareem Chacha and the pious, kindly burqa clad hameeda chachi for ever. It is not the same here!

dost-mittar #56
``Your reference to southern baptist is not quite relevant. Their objection was to religious symbols; people lighting their houses were not considered to be a threat to anyone. In fact, the same people also object to Halloween as pagan worship. Moreover, they are themselves somewhat marginal and do not represent the mainstream.``

Their objection was not to religious symbols, it was to Hindus remaining Hindus and not converting to Christianity - that was what the pamphlet was about(it was reported on in the NY Times too, later).

I would not call them marginal, Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton are both Southern Baptists of some color(Clinton condemned the pamphlet and Carter has parted ways with the main Southern Baptists over the role of women in ministry). Moreover, these people are likely to command more organisation, more membership and more funding than any Hindu group in the US does, I will bet.

The point was that a perceived violation of boundaries of individual or group autonomy does lead to overt assertions of identity as response, as happened with increased appearance of turbans after 1984 and increased appearance of Muslim-specific dress in India after 9/11 (which is what I heard).

Romair#55:
``You seem addicted to the word, ``dar-ul-harb.`` :-) ``

This is what reading quran and hadis can do to one. :). And it is a very succinct and precise term which needs no elaboration.

More seriously, I think that this is the concept that drives the likes of Mohammad Atta and other followers of OBL. They are not even practising muslims in many cases but are fired with the zeal of political islam.

I have been to both Bangladesh and Pakistan. My observation was that Bangladeshi muslims are more devoted to their religion in terms of religious piety than Pakistanis. Yet, Pakistan is more troubled by jihadis than Bangladeshi. A possible explanation is that Pakistanis are more interested in political than religious islam.

...But you are right! Not too many muslims wake up every morning thinking of the ways in which they will try to expand dar-ul-islam. And I may have given that impression with the frquent use of that term.

If people want to make a political statement with their hijab or turban (or with anything else) what is wrong with that? And what kind of radar do individuals possess, who can pick out who is making a political statement and who is not making one?

Are they bothering anyone, by making such a statement?

I don`t have any friends who wear hijab, but I do have Sikh friends and colleagues who wear turbans and who do not wear them. I never really bothered about why they do or don`t wear it. Maybe they wear it to make a political statement. Maybe to make a religious statement. Maybe a cultural statement. Or maybe just because they were brought up that way.

What the hell business of it is of mine, as long as they don`t harm me? Which they haven`t, so far?

When one starts commenting on the intentions (which are obviously unknown) of certain actions of others, which are causing no harm to one`s own self, one crosses the line, and becomes a bigot. I am truly amazed at the biases and prejudices and pre-judgements individuals indulge in on this site........

I will start complaining, if a hijaban or a turbaned Sikh use the cloths of their hijabs or turbans to choke me. Until then, live and let live. Let people make any statement they want. It is the spice of life. As long as one is secure in one`s own personality and doesn`t have any complexes, one will not be affected by such statements. If one is not secure in one`s own skin, one will always feel threatened or annoyed by those who do things differently (for whatever reasons)......

digit:
``As a member of a first-generation community, can you please tell me what`s wrong with an `in-your-face` attitude? And I am asking this as in-your-face as possible :-)``

Simply put, it invites an in-your-face backlash. Yesterday, a muslim organisation in Ottawa published the results of its survey which showed that 75% of the muslims think that they are under suveillence. I think that this partly reflects the paranoia of the muslim community, but is also a reflection of the subtle hostility they encounter in their daily lives. I am now retired but still go for a beer with my old colleagues on Fridays. The resentment of these people is quite evident, despite all the sweet talk we hear on TV from the politicians of all stripes. The resentment is greater among the qubecois (we usually go to a pub in Hull) as they have this notion of social contract which expects a higher degree of adjustment on the part of the immigrant.
If this is the situation in the `civil` civil service town, one can imagine the situation in blue collar surroundings.
A couple of years ago, I had argued with tahmed on the opposite side; namely he was opposed to hijab and I supported it.The situation has changed since then.

sadna:
As I pointed out in my post to dullabhati/kaurasach, there is a difference between religious/cultural identities and political identities. When a high school girl born in Canada wears jeans and skirts and switches to hijab when she goes to university, it is not an assertion of religious but that of political import.

Your reference to southern baptist is not quite relevant. Their objection was to religious symbols; people lighting their houses were not considered to be a threat to anyone. In fact, the same people also object to Halloween as pagan worship. Moreover, they are themselves somewhat marginal and do not represent the mainstream

dost-mittar #23: ``hijab has become a threat to the society from a religious belief which treats the host society as dar-ul-harb. ``

You seem addicted to the word, ``dar-ul-harb.`` :-)

I have been a Muslim all my life, and have hung around with Muslims most of my life. Yet I have never heard them use this word. The only place where I have seen it is in writings of a tiny group of Muslim writers. Even Maulana Fazl etc. rarely, if ever (perhaps never) use this term. Yet you use it all the time........ And so many Indians on this site, use it all the time. Why do you think that is? Why do you see dar-al-harb everywhere.

P.S. Hoping for something different than the generic, ``I only see it because the Muslims see it`` type of an answer. Since, you seem to use it more than the hundreds to thousands of Muslims I may have run across in my life.

The Rediff Election Special / Amberish K Diwanji in Godhra

In Godhra, Muslims don`t matter

April 20, 2004


In Godhra, the marginalisation of the Muslim is complete.

The BJP does not care for them. ``They are not going to vote for us, so why
bother?`` asks Dr Chandrakant Pandya, who sat in the party`s city office while
its candidate Bharat Solanki was out campaigning in the villages.

Pandya was the first, and last, person to allow me to use his real name. All the
others that I met in the city over the next four hours insisted that I not
mention their names. And the photographer who accompanied me to Godhra remained
unemployed: no one -- Hindu or Muslim -- wanted his photograph taken, while we
did not want to shoot political workers!

Back to the Muslims. The BJP does not give a damn and says so openly.

But the Congress is also unwilling to touch the Muslims with a barge pole, and
says so too. In fact, a Congress leader in the city, manning the party`s
electoral office, proudly said there were no Muslims either in his office or
involved in the campaign. ``They have no choice but to vote for us, so why do we
need to bother with them?``

The Congressman did give me his name, but then requested that I not mention it.
I suspect that even the name he gave me was a false one.

The Congress and its candidate Rajendrasinh Patel are busy wooing the Hindus.
They have deliberately kept all Muslims out of the campaign, or even any
official position in the party. The aim is clearly to appear to be a party of
the Hindus, for the Hindus and, most important, by the Hindus. Even mild
interaction with Muslims could spoil this cultivated image.

A Hindu (in this city the only identity that matters is the community) who owns
a handcart selling plastic toys at an important road crossing insisted the city
is peaceful now. ``It is all the politicians who come from outside and create
trouble,`` he said.

The vendor said the campaigning has been low key, a sentiment others shared.
``Everyone is tired,`` he said, ``because during every election, communal tensions
rise.``

After the Sabarmati Express compartment was burnt on February 27, 2002, just
outside Godhra station, the city itself remained peaceful even as communal
frenzy and carnage tore through central and eastern Gujarat. But Godhra`s peace
was deceptive: there were riots last year during the Ganesh Chaturthi
festival.

A Muslim sitting in a small restaurant along with his friends near the notorious
Signal Falia area (the men who torched the train carriage allegedly hailed from
this quarter) insisted that no Muslim had pelted stones on the Ganesh
processions as alleged by the police. ``Are we mad to do such things?`` he
asked.

``The politicians do it to create trouble. Hindus and Muslims live in peace. We
trade with them. In fact, one of the partners of this shop that you are
standing in is a Hindu. If Hindus were enemies, would I work with them?``

But it proves a case of the man protesting too much. Muslims and Hindus do
trade, but beyond this token dealing there is no interaction at all between the
communities.

In Godhra, Mohammed Ali Jinnah`s words seem so prophetic today: Hindus and
Muslims are separate peoples forced to share a common space. And they do so by
living in different localities, which are referred to, rather unimaginatively,
as `Hindustan` and `Pakistan.`

The Muslim shopkeeper admitted that perhaps this is not the best way to live,
but then pointed out that it is because the Muslims are not in the Hindu areas
that perhaps no one was killed, a sentiment Hindus agree with. But living
separately means the two communities are just that: two different communities.

The Muslims are also extremely resentful of the daily humiliations they suffer.
``Our boys are just picked up at random by the police and accused of being one
of the hundreds who participated in torching the train. When a lawyer went to
defend some of them, he too was booked and jailed,`` said the Muslim shopkeeper
who outwardly appeared calm.

This is the biggest grouse of the Muslim community in Godhra today: that young
men are just picked up at random whenever the police feel like it. The police
station in this area, just outside Godhra railway station and running parallel
to the tracks, is buzzing with policemen.

Those arrested for their alleged involvement in torching the train are booked
under the Prevention of Terrorism Act; this means they can be locked up for up
to a year without trial or being brought before a magistrate. And with local
Muslim leaders out of action, it is difficult to get them out of jail.

Years ago, a social scientist studying communal riots had made a wry
observation: Muslim areas have police stations; Hindu areas have schools.

In Godhra, this was how it happened. The government-run school in the Muslim
area was shut down. The reason given was that there are not enough students.
But as the Muslim shopkeeper said, ``Keep the school open and students will
come.`` Now students have to trudge far to private schools. Given the grinding
poverty so very evident, many will drop out before they matriculate; few, if
any, will go beyond that.

Muslims see no scope of getting government jobs; and the factories in and around
Godhra, which lies in the industrial belt of Gujarat, are slowly shutting down.
They run petty businesses, where margins are paltry. Others work as truck
drivers and cleaners, or operate garages.

Many young Muslims in this area are involved in the transport business, but no
one actually owns a truck; they just can`t afford to buy one. So they rent
trucks from the owners, which only reduces their earnings.

I met a Hindu shopkeeper who runs a shop adjoining the Muslim locality. He
declared in front of a small crowd that had gathered that many of his customers
are Muslims, and then loudly proclaimed that Hindu-Muslim relations are fine
and that it is only the media that keeps seeing divisions in the city. He said
people vote on the basis of performance and the Congress might have a chance.

After 30 minutes of discussing sundry issues of little relevance, most of the
others in the shop had left. That was when he visibly relaxed and let his guard
down.

``I will only vote for the BJP,`` he told me conspiratorially. ``I can`t risk the
Congress returning to power because then the Muslims will get the upper hand
and make life hell for us.``

The shopkeeper admitted he had never had any problems with Muslims. ``In fact,
whenever things get difficult, it is the Muslims who come and tell me to shut
my shop; they don`t let it be damaged as they know me.``

He even admitted he quite dislikes the BJP, especially local MLA Haresh Bhatt.
``That man is terrible,`` he said. ``I was in difficulty last year and he just
won`t help any of us. But even then I will vote for the BJP.``

His explanation revealed sharp business logic. ``Look, the BJP will form the
government at the Centre. So it is better to vote for Solanki than Patel, who
will end up in the Opposition.``

Asked if he faced any trouble, he laughed and seconded what the Muslims had said
earlier. ``Today, no Muslim dare do anything. The police now simply pick up
anyone even thinking of creating trouble and lock him up on the charge that he
was a conspirator in the Godhra massacre.``

Two years on, the Godhra incident continues to cast a long shadow over the city
and its people. The election is of little importance to the people here. It
will make no difference to their lives.

there is a natural process of enticement among the sexes as nature (god) defined. its basic birds and bees. just like it would be wrong to remove color or perfume of flowers to ensure that wasps are not atracted, it is wrong to interfere too much in natural selection processes among the sexes. a large jijab is undue interference which may cause devastating ecological damage.

on the other hand a nice hijab as a fashion accessory (remebmber the stuff about freedom to express oneself) would be dandy.

Some ideas.

1. zari border hijab.
2. thong hijab.
3. lace-border.
4. see-thru
5. hijab with a cellphone earpiece
6. hijab with holders for soda/beer cans with a straw for drinking

all `in your face` attitudes are not necessarily controversial/frowned upon. hijab is associated with islam and if islam/its practitioners had made generally positive contributions to the contemporary world, hijab may actually have become respectable/non-issue for non-muslims as well.

the practitioners of islam as a society (exceptions apart), in modern times, have not presented the world with any praiseworthy thoughts/deeds...in fact, quite the opposite has happened. hence the aversion to hijab/jilbab, etc.

ankit #236
``jus wanted to add that it is convenient to say that what teesta seetalvad professes is not secularism. ``

Not sure what you mean, but I will point out that it is convenient for Hindutva-vadis too, who inspite of many years in power have not stopped holding others responsible for their their own blatant biases and biased actions.

SaimaShah:

Thanks for your feedback. I appreciate and value your views regarding the `very sensitive` issue of hijab. wishing you well,

Mohammad Gill

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dost-mittar #various
The year the Southern Baptists distributed pamphlets on occasion of Diwali, calling Diwali a `a festival of darkness` because `devilworshipping ignorant Hindus` celebrated it, that was the exact same year we made it a point to put up a bright lighted sign outside, spelling out `Happy Diwali` to the general public.

Sometimes individuals feel that boundaries have to be drawn which others can not violate. A hijab as setting up a personal boundary need not be a bad thing. However, if it is a part of a wider agenda, like an across-the-board insistence of a community on glorified isolation, then boundaries like hijab are not a good thing. It all depends.

Hiding face behind hijab for the sake of avoiding lustfully gazing men is no longer valid in the western societies where more and more Muslim women are turning to hijab, more for in-your-face political statement than avoiding to be lustfully looked upon. The standards of beauty, sensuality, sexuality and lust have moved away from face to other body parts in the west, at least. Yamila Diaz-Rahi would still be lustfully looked upon by men in her two tiny piece swimsuit wether face covered with hijab or not. My hunch is that like obese anti-abortion activists by the roadside every Sunday, the bodies behind most of hijaban converts are such that they do not induce lust even without hijab, except may be for Urdu poets who restrict describing beauty and lust to the facial parts. So the reason to wear hijab on the first place is no longer valid.