Origins of Hijab

sadna:

your criticism of my point noted. :) as for zahra boosting herself by putting others down, it has nothing to do with this article, but rather her valid, and often arrogant opinions that she has expressed personally to some of us pakistanis on how unintelligent we are in other arenas. did not mean to and will not drag you into that. :)

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gill sahib,

............ i know you are trying to be a mature person and a nice guy when offer up this advice to the riff raff`` ``Don`t be judgmental about others` faith and beliefs`` .............. but don`t you think it is disingeneous and dishonest not to call a spade a spade when you see it come crashing down on yor head ............ why do we have to be respectful of an obviously silly thing like faith ?............. are we supposed to be respectful of idiots who might choose to walk around naked on the streets carrying a copy of the wsj rolled up under their arm just because it is their faith?............ no? ....... then why should we tolerate a silly woman trying to make some kind of a personal ( although i think it is more political ) statement by wrapping her head in an ominous headjob ?..............

.............. you know what really bothers me? ......... it is this darn notion that we have that somehow religious practices and idiosyncracies are to be tolerated even though they might border on the bizzare and ridiculous ............. don`t tell me that we are not allowed to laugh at elephant nosed gods, or circumcised body parts, or little boys who claim their mothers are virgins ............ get real!............it is time to put god back in heaven so that we can get on with the business of living .............

atif`s argument is correct. ZahraJ will go in her grave and guys who are beheading her friends will go in theirs. Zahraj will have to answer for her deeds and they will answer for theirs.

atif1#103
[that your argument held no logic, rationale, intelligence, intellect, thought, philosophy, cognition, or for that matter any characteristic that people typically associate with a sane argument.]

...zor kiss per hua sane argument ..dont expect that from zahraj... she is jungle ka badshah...anda day ya bachchaa...;)

#104
Yes, it is a valid argument. Rural N. India has a very large number of Hindu women who cover their heads and wear modest `Hindu` clothing aka saris. If someone was campaigning for said Hindu clothing, and I pointed out that rape and other crimes happen to those Hindu women inspite of it, would I boosting myself and putting other people down ?

It is not as if men are not bashed in other guises on chowk, I remember one Stephen Hawking being the pretext last time. It is amazing to be in the wrong on the other side of the argument as well.

oh atif, but it did. zahra khatoon`s argument is a `valid` argument after all. when she says

Ironically, crimes happen where women are wrapped. Rapes take place where women wear dupattas/shawls/chadors. Debauchery and lies are preached and religiously practiced in countries claiming to have roots based on the principles of Islam. If you review the lay of the land, it`s like reading a comic strip. In my view, wherever men are weak, unbalanced and insecure, women will have to bear the brunt.

how unintelligent are we indeed not to infer that zahra khatoon is interpreting a text ironically. and not only that. . that we are unintelligent for not reading between the lines. it must be comforting to know just how superior and intelligent a woman is, who boosts herself by putting others down.

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atif1:

My remarks although addressed to you are quite general; they apply as much to you as to Zaraj, or any body else. If you personally felt hurt, I apologise. My point is that we can interact and make our point(s) without being discourteous.

The discussion has drifted away from the central theme of my article and I choose to stay away from it. I wish you well and in your own respective ways, all of you are a group of great guys.

Mohammad Gill

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atif1 #95
``ZahraJ writes ``Rapes take place where women wear dupattas/shawls/chadors. Debauchery and lies are preached and religiously practiced in countries claiming to have roots based on the principles of Islam.``

Zahraj - FYI, rapes take place even where women DO NOT wear dupattas/shawls/chadors. ``

Precisely. The dupatta, shawl or chador does not necessarily make women safer just as in countries claiming to have roots in principles of Islam, there are still debuchery and lies just like every where else.

One can not argue that the use of hijab/dupatta/chador/shawl results in women being safer than where they are not required to wear these. How long does it take to pull off a hijab or dupatta anyway.

Zahra`s point is quite valid and it is not clear why you are asking her to stop being a Muslim simply because her point is valid.

And, my observations continue...

[The religious injunctions need to be reinterpretted to suit the modern conditions. And reinterpretation of Quran, particularly on the issues which relate to the women, should be done by the Muslim women scholars. They should not be terrified into silence.]

Out of curiosity, I would like to ask the following question:

Q. When the muslims could not follow their own holy book which carries the crux of how to lead life as a sane human being and are busy in the horrifying practices of beheading fellow human beings, killing in the mosques, disregarding and disrespecting the other sects within their own religion, tearing apart their oppositions since that is a challenge to their insecure selves ... do you think they will go out of their way to hug the new provisions in the shariah provided by Mernessi and other women scholars ? Who will follow those revisions?

Lastly, please refer brother Atif to the women`s club working towards reinterpreting the existing shariah. I am sure being a passionate muslim male he will contribute to the best of his capabilities. In fact, his contribution may make some difference. Just like the jehadi boys were brainwashed in their early teens and dumped in the war fields, I am sure brother atif can be utilized in his pre-teen years for some good cause.

Regards.

gill saheb,

interesting how you should attempt to silence atif, but not address the blanket statement that zahra sahiba has made. crimes happen everywhere, where women are, be they covered or not covered. i should think that more intelligent people would challenge what zahra sahiba has said, but then again one cannot always see beyond their own prejudices and biases, or beyond their own inflated notions of superiority.

signed,
a woman who bears the brunt in the west as well.

Zahraj:

What I tried to suggest was that educated women like you should identify the `issues of women` which need fighting for. Then you should research the history of such issues and enlighten other women about those issues. Education and enlightenment is part of the struggle. Do not wait, get going.

atif1:

May I suggest you to cool down. Don`t be judgmental about others` faith and beliefs. Don`t call a person non-Muslim if she/he believes she/he is a Muslim. This is the tragedy in the Muslim world. All of them are itching to pass fatwas. Take time to express your views calmly and let others present their views calmly. Everyone doesn`t have to agree with you; likewise, you have the right to hold a different opinion from others.

Wishing you well,

Mohammad Gill

Freethinker: A few other thoughts:

1. [But it`s a battle of the Muslim women and they should fight it. They should not leave it for the men to fight it for them. ]

Lack of participation on the said subject does not imply that women rely on a man`s judgment or reasoning. Also, just because a man happens to wear the label of muslimness on his forehead does not imply that he is capable of handling the nuances of some life-threatening matters like hijaab :)

2. [The field again was dominated by the males who laid down what the women should do and shouldn`t do.]

Who cares what a man prescribes for a woman? I don`t. I won`t.

3. [The religious injunctions need to be reinterpretted to suit the modern conditions. And reinterpretation of Quran, particularly on the issues which relate to the women, should be done by the Muslim women scholars.]

And, who is going to lead the effort? Have the muslims ever agreed upon the resolution of an issue as a group? There are 100s and 1000s of inconsistencies. Not that inconsistencies do not exist in other religions, beliefs and faiths, but since the topic of discussion is looking into hijab from the muslim angle therefore it`s important to realize the implications of such recommendations. Does it mean that one should sit and wait till the end? No. I am only suggesting that it`s important to view the lay of the land in its entirety before jumping into any such initiatives.

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