Lesbians vs. Gays vs. Hinduism vs. Modernity?

Hello Romair/83, you are correct. Secular people also need to support the hollow earth theory (inside hemisphere). To do this, they shall need to manufacture a huge big private sector transporter fit enough to carry all the non-secularists and send them to outer space to keep an eye on the rest of them. Once they are up there anyway, they might as well keep them over there itself.

Please dress warm, and keep your certificates, in triplicate, handy.

By the way, what are your views on Rapture?

How can someone be secular and not support gay marraige?

This is something I have not been able to figure out. Marriage is 100% religious phenomenon. Yet it is one of the most heavily legislated issue in all secular countries. It relates to tax benefits, social security, etc.; not to mention social status, electoral politics, etc.

The state specifically and openly legislates on a religious issue, in case of marriage.

In a secular system, the state and religion are separate. That means no religious rule should have a place in state legislation. Either every couple should get equal state previlages or no one should get state previlages. This implies that male-male, male-female, brother-sister, cousin-cousin, etc. unions all need to be considered equal by the state. Similarly, a person should be allowed to marry as many other persons of the same or different gender, as he/she wants, as long as it is done with consent.

This is the true separation of state and religion.

I think the next coming decades will be interesting for the secularism and state vs. religion debate. Marriage is currently the social foundation stone of all societies - be they secular or religious. Yet secularism, and specifically gay marriage is going to open up a legalistic floodgate on what is and is not allowed in a society. It will turn the current moral definitions of a society on its head. This will result in some secular societies, like Western Europe completely throwing religion out the door. And some secular societies, like USA, clinging on to it furthur.

I have heard that there are already parties that are preparing to open up polygomy in the legal level, after they see a positive decision on gay marriage. After all, polygamy should be legal in a secular state, if it is done with consent. If one can have ten mistresses in such a state, then why cannot one have ten wives? Why should the state care, if it is secular?

Anyone who claims to support secularism has to fight for gay marriage rights (and for all other kinds of marriage rights)- be they in USA, Pakistan or India. I would be interested in finding out the stance of all our friends who wear their secularism on their sleeves, on the issue of gay marriage. I am afraid if they do not support it, then they have quite the double standard, i.e. they also are bent on bringing religion into politics, while simultaneously arguing for the opposite.......hypocrisy in my opinion......

#76 Stuka, as usual, a very astute and mature comment from you. Thank you for not letting me change my view of your formidable intelligence.

HP, for someone who claims to interact with so many gay people what is the root of your intolerance. And no, I am not, a sitting on the sidelines idealogue. I have plenty of daily interactions with gay people.

Yes, most regular gay people live every day lives and don`t dance in the gay pride parade. But then most straight people don`t inflate big balloons and march in brass bands every day either. But they both have the right to do their own version of a parade.

There is a difference between demeaning comments and gay bashing. Beating a young man to death and leaving him tied in the fields of Laramie, WY, is not the same as someone harrassing a straight person. It is not just a matter of degrees.

Yes, gays are fighting against bigotry but they are also asking for the same rights all of us take for granted. And, marriage, in its legal form with *all* its attendant rights and privileges (all 800+ of them) is a basic right being denied to them.

They are no better than anyone else but they are also no worse. That`s it.

Anyway, no one has ever changed their minds about this issue. You either believe all human beings deserve some rights regardless of their gender, the color of their skin, their countries of origin or their sexuality or they don`t. I am not trying to change anyone`s mind here, just stating my opinion. So, this is the last from me on this topic.

It would be immodest of me to opine on the subject of [male] homosexuality from a South Asian perspective let alone pretend to be an international expert and talk about it as a global phenomenon. Female homosexuality is far beyond my [limited] expertise.

Nevertheless, as far as Pakistan is concerned, I am entitled to put across my first hand observations. And according to my humble opinion Pakistani homosexuals can be sorted into five major subsets.

1. Genetic ones, those who are by nature homosexuals
2. Those who are practising it because of necessity. Military garrisons, prisons, boarding schools, madrassas with testosterone-propped young lads without any pussal outlet to get rid of their overflowing body fluids. Find solace in “bhai-chara”
3. Non-voluntary. Those who are being misused and sexually exploited in environments type mentioned in No. 2.
4. Got into it due to reasons given in 2 & 3 and then develop a taste for it.
5. So-called adventurers. People ``exploring`` themselves, testing limits and in some cases trying to be liberal, modern and/or following fashion [as in the West].

The group of women NHK saab alluded to <>primarily started doing it for the sake of their respective husbands, who in turn, normally, belong to group 2. And then stuck over there either voluntarily or have had no option.

* Bechari bhabian & Begum Sahiban* [No offence to my fellow fauji brothers]

Without any prejudice against any ethnic group, in Afghanistan & NWFP male sexuality is quite widespread. To an extent that some people over there very seriously believe that sex with women is for the sake of reproduction, with young guys for pleasure and enjoyment. “Ashna” is a well known term and concept in some of the areas.

Interestingly, all over Pakistan, it is perfectly OK to be an active homo, but NOT being a passive one. In simple words to be the one who is using his male wand is not frowned upon but the one who get f***ed. Strange standards!!

PS.
One of the reasons for the rise of Taliban was their dislike for this practice.

What was once considered at worse a form of sexual perversion, and at beast sexual dysfunction we have moved to talk of `community` and `rights`. I missed something along the way...

What is it about challenging the traditional family, having an identity solely based on sexual activity, etc. that implies `community-hood` and the right to rights? No, this is not about establishing an `opressed community`, but about establishing a stick to beat tradition with.

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Jawahara #75
good writing! unlike the article above...

#75 by Jawahara
“How many gay people do you interact with every day?”

Many! My business partner is gay! Lives in Miami beach, I live on the west coast and I talk to him at least five times every day. Whenever we travel for business, we go to gay bars in different cities. I used to frequent Tracks in SW Wash, DC. When I lived in DC, -with my wife- as we liked the atmosphere there. My best friend’s sister is gay and her partner hates me for calling god a he. Need more? So I know what I am talking about more then many ideologues who have not been to gay bars and have no knowledge of the gay lifestyle in the US.

Most of the regular people in the gay community don’t act like drag queens in the gay pride parades. They are regular people who live a normal life. Then we have exhibitionist that spoil it for everybody. After making so much noise about the gay marriage only about a couple of hundred actually got married. There are no lines in SFA now. That was all stunting for political mileage and for publicity. So now some politicians can polish off more vote and skim some more from the SIMPLE folks of the Christian right.

When this proposed amendment goes before the senate in July, we will see some loud noisey parades and money making by both -anti or pro gay marriage- politicians. The whole thing is a scam and only gullible fall for it. Some have clearly bought the whole thing hook, line, and sinker.

“How many straight bashings are there”
Plenty!!! Try some gay bars. An asian - with no inclination for making passes, would get you plenty of stares and often some really demeaning comments.
Did you even know that in the gay community, some hate Asians because Asians are perceived to be anti-gay?

“The gay movement in the US is what it is, getting rights for themselves”

Most gays are fighting against bigotry in the society.

They already have rights like all hetros have. US citizen’s rights are enshrined in the Bill of rights and the constitution. They can do whatever they want in privacy and now in public whatever and whenever they desire. What do they need special rights for?

Are they better than everybody else because they do it the wrong way?

(almost 99% of my friends and young relatives, male and female have been sexually molested in India),

HAHAHA, what a load of bull. Maybe that`s why all your friends turned gay...heh heh.

HP #72

``Isn’t that the real problem? How do you move on when “they” are always in your face with “their” demands and rights. In the US, gays are a tiny whiney minority. Truly, it would be really easy to just ignore them but would they let anybody ignore them first?``

How are *they* always in your face? How many gay people do you interact with every day? Do a content analysis of news stories. Percentage wise, how many gay stories are there versus those aimed at heteros?

For me, I find self righteous, homophobic bigots offensive. I would like to wish them away but they have the right to express their opinion. What they don`t have a right to do is to incite violence, hurt or kill people. I also hate the damn feel-good-about-my-town-parades with floats and syrupy sentiment equally offensive. I wish I could ban all of them, especially that damned Macy`s parade. I find all of it annoying and stupid. And there are a lot more of those than one gay pride parade. You dont have to go to the parade. I don`t go to any of the parades I find offensive.

Btw, how many gay people have killed heteros for the *only* reason that they are straight? How many straight bashings are there? On the other hand, we all know of the gay people killed for being gay.


If people want to get married to whoever, as long as the other partner has given his/he adult consent what`s the problem? Heteros living without marriage have a choice. They can choose to get get married if they want. Gays want the same choice. It`s not like all of them will be running off to the altar. BUt if they want to, they should have the same choice.

Btw, the marriage thing is not to just score some obscure point. Marriage, as a social construct is very different from live-in relationships. There are some 800 or so distinct and legal rights that married couples have which are not enjoyed by live-in couples. So, if a legal marriage in the US, is denied to gays, it is actually denying tax-paying people their civil rights.

About Mardi Gras! How much more or less offensive are gays in the parade than breast-baring, drunken girls? If someone is a prude Mardi Gras would not be a destination at all. It revels in raunchiness, gay or straight.

HP, are you serious or are you just trying to get a rise out of me? There are tons of things in India that are truly shameful. How come I don`t see people being embarrassed about honor killings, dowry burnings, female infanticide and foeticide, religious and sectarian violence, corruption, grinding poverty, sex abuse of kids (almost 99% of my friends and young relatives, male and female have been sexually molested in India), obscene displays of wealth in tasteless weddings...the list is endless. Those are the things that should make us feel ashamed. But no, let`s not ever see or even know about two (or more) people in a consensual relationship. *That* is the straw that will break the camel`s back.

The gay movement in the US is what it is, getting rights for themselves and about time I say. For any real change to occur the issue has to be politicized to change laws, etc. Are you as outraged about the crackpot right that tries to dictate how we ought to live our lives.

At one time blacks were not considered human. It amazes me that the same language and vitriol is coming to the forefront with this issue as did during the era of segregation.

Hetero couples in India, in increasing numbers (especially in the metros) are not living the lives their parents did. They are exploring male/female roles and their own sexuality more openly. Another reason the gay pride parades are often so over the top is the very reason that the parades are held. When you suppress, humiliate and ignore people, when you harrass and hurt them, if they get an opportunity to come out together in full force, they can`t hold themselves back. That Kolkata parade sounds like fun. About time, they had a lively parade there.


That`s it for now.

dullabhatti...

LOL

dullabhatti # 70


ROTFL

#67 by Jawahara
“Really, if people have a problem with gay people. Don`t have sex with them. Ignore them. Move on.”

Isn’t that the real problem? How do you move on when “they” are always in your face with “their” demands and rights. In the US, gays are a tiny whiney minority. Truly, it would be really easy to just ignore them but would they let anybody ignore them first?

A great majority of the US states are already common Law states where couples or live in partners already have rights. Why push the envelope of gay marriages to the tilt, when a good number of hetros are already living without marriage? In fact, the states that have allowed gay marriages already allow live in partner’s rights.

What about Gay pride parades every year except for forcing attention. Even at Mardi grass in new Orleans this year, gays were prominent in parades with their lurid acts like other attention hos.

A good majority of the people don’t care either way whether gays were born that way or turned that way by some obnoxious child abuse excuses.

In the US, most of the pro and anti gay noises are ploys to gain attention for some political operatives to become heftier politically.

I think last year they had a gay parade in Kolkota. The pictures that I saw from that parade were clearly offensive from the Indian standards. Even the hetro couples in India or Pakistan stay within the confines of acceptable social behavior, why was it necessary for gays to take out a parade with acts that were clearly offensive to most of the watchers?

Re: Nass,

OK, good! Why dont you give us your addy and then our people will call Farzana`s people and maybe you kids can make some nookie.

Late.

>``There is rarely any talk about Christianity vs. modernity. . . .``

perhaps not all so publicly (nooralain)

What can one say? To those who are attuned to the intellectual currents in Saudi Arabia only, it will come as a surprise that there is a star out there called the Sun.

I was reading somewhere that God has clearly said somwehere to the effect ``condemned are men who have sex with their wives in the anus``..... so amongst all the millions of problems humans will be facing in next million years God thought it to be important to be told that zanani di bunD nai maar sakday....hey man I am not goint to tell you how to cure fever, common cold, headache, cancer, polio, chicken pox....no hint on how to cure allergies(I am sneezing all morning today:-))..but hey man I tell you don`t have sex with your wife in the anus.

Rabb ji eh kehRi gallaN choN gall si jehRI karni zaroori si...hain?