Lesbians vs. Gays vs. Hinduism vs. Modernity?

fz #46 which para. is that one, my dear? (Just in case i decide to go to town with it)

karachiwala, good for you. Your post highlighted the fact that sex (with who and how) is not as important as who the person is. Just as my only identity is not that I am hetero, so are gay people more than with who and how they have sex. Hope you are happy in your marrige. Kudos to your parents as well for being so wonderful.

Labyrinth, good questionnaire but I am too lazy to answer all of it. So, here`s my take.
I think for me, bottom line, I don`t care if it is an orientation or a choice. I think it is probably a behavior hardwired into a person`s brain but even if it is not, if s/he is having sex with another consenting adult, what do I care how they are doing it. We choose to do things all the time. How do we as hetero people have sex or relate to people or our interests, they are all choices we make. And perhaps orientation and choice is linked anyway. What makes me choose to do the things I do? Is it because it`s something that comes to me from the inside (orientation) or because of the world I live in (pure choice). There is no pure choice I think. Why do some women like bald men? Why do some men like women with short or long hair? All the cominations and permutations out there. So some men like men and some women like women. So?

Really, if people have a problem with gay people. Don`t have sex with them. Ignore them. Move on. I don`t like people who do plenty of things. That doesn`t mean they should be deprived of their rights. I don`t like people who eat with their mouth open, who condemn others using the crutch of religion, who tell me what women should and should not do, who tell me what marriage should be like. I do what I do to Tv programming I don`t like. Shut them out and turn them off.

If my child was gay I would truly not have a problem with it. My only concern would be his/her physical safety (from the loose cannon bigots running around) and emotional well-being. My husband and I have talked about this at length. I want my child to be happy, successful and fulfilled. The gender s/he is attracted to is not my problem.

I thnk gay marriage is long overdue. Damn it they should have to face the same legal and other problems the rest of us breeders do. Seriously, by the time our kids grow up they will look at a world where gay marriage was illegal with as much dismay and surprise as we look upon the white/black marriage issue. It was telling, therefore, that Massachusetts used that archaic law as a defence against gays from other states marrying within our state. Shameful, really.

That`s it for now. A good, juicy discussion worthy article after a while. Thanks FV

This was wonderful, FV. And impressions, I do not think she is ``out of her mind.``

some questions I found on chowk.com
1. Even though current research indicates that sexual orientation is fixed and unchangeable, some still insist that homosexuals could change if they wanted to. o Could you change your sexual orientation on demand?
o Would you want to? Why or why not?

2. Many people assume that homosexuality is a choice, and that gay people have made the decision to be gay. o If you assume that homosexuality is a matter of choice, do you assume that heterosexuality is a matter of choice also?
o When did you choose your sexual orientation?

3. Suppose for a minute that sexual orientation is a simple matter of choice (which it does not appear to be): o Does that mean that gays and lesbians are less deserving of civil rights protection?
Before you answer, consider the following:
Religious affiliation is a choice in our country, yet our government provides protection from discrimination on the basis of this personal decision.

4. Currently, our government does not provide gays and lesbians with the benefits of marriage, or protection from discrimination in employment and housing. o Should gays and lesbians pay taxes to a government that fails to provide them with basic civil rights protection?
o Why should gays and lesbians pay into funds that provide special rights and benefits for heterosexuals and their partners, but does little to benefit homosexuals and their loved ones?

5. Would you turn down a life saving organ donation, if the donor was gay or lesbian?

6. Does it seem fair that a heterosexual couple married for one hour has more legal rights and responsibilities toward each other than a same-sex couple that has been together for 25 years?

7. If your child were gay:
o Would you love him/her any less?
o Would you want your child to grow up and live in a society that refused to accept him/her, and grant him/her equal rights?
o Would you want people to make assumptions about your child based on stereotypes and myths, or would you want people to judge your child based on logic, fact and personal merit?
o Would you believe your child was less deserving of basic civil rights, the freedom to spend his/her life with the person they love, and the benefits of legal marriage?

8. If your neighbor or co-worker were gay:
o How would his/her sexual orientation affect you?
o Would granting him/her equal rights, infringe upon your rights? How?

9. Currently, gay and lesbian couples are denied the benefits of a legal marriage, while heterosexual couples continue to reap the benefits of a legal union. o Who has special rights now?
o Would granting gays and lesbians the right to marry interfere with anyone else`s right to marry? How?
o How would it affect the benefits heterosexual couples currently enjoy?
o Would granting gays the right to marry affect your marriage? How?


10. Why do so many people consider AIDS/HIV to be a gay disease when: o The World Health Organization reports that heterosexual contact is responsible for over 70% of all AIDS/HIV cases world wide?
o According to CDC statistics (July, 1997) heterosexual sex is the fastest growing mode of transmission for HIV in the United States - growing at a rate of 15 to 20 percent a year, compared to 5 percent for intravenous drug users and 5 percent for male homosexuals.

This passage by Dr. Zafar Khan (within the 5 stars) demonstrates the position Islam takes with regards to Homosexuality. However, emphasis should be given to the Quranic Verses .

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*****Homosexuality is not allowed in Islam. There are various verses in Quran where Allah clearly says about Homosexuality.

We also (sent) Lut: he said to his people: ``Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you?”For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.`` - Holy Quran 7:80-81

The Quran forbids any sexual relationship other than in a marriage between a man and a woman. Many homosexual men and women claim that they are born with their sexual preferences and that they have no choice. Although this point is very much in dispute in the medical world, it has no support in the Quran. Even then, irrespective of the nature of homosexuality, this matter would not affect the laws spelled out clearly in the Quran .

We know that this life is a test. Every one of us has his/her own test. For example someone may be born blind, but that person is expected to live his/her life according to God’s law. Others are born poor, short, tall, weak, missing fingers, having big nose...etc but all of them are expected to follow God’s law. Some men or women may never marry in their life, or spend part of their life without a spouse. As per the Quran they still have to live a chaste life and avoid any sexual contacts outside a marriage. They have to suppress their sexual feelings to follow God’s law. It is a major test and not an easy one for many. Only those who submit to God will do everything they can to follow His law. They know that their salvation and eternal happiness rests in doing so.

Since God condemns homosexuality, then we have to believe that a man or a woman with homosexual feelings is expected to behave like any other human being and follows God’s laws if he/she truly believes in them. He/she shall resist his/her feelings, maintains abstinence, use all available resources of help including medical, social and behavioral therapies to overcome their behavior and feelings. They should pray to God to help them getting over it and submit to God’s law that sees homosexuality as gross sin. Only those who steadfastly persevere in obeying God’s law will they pass their test and confirm their submission to God.

For a person who asks, ``why me?`` We know God is the Most Merciful and Just (16:90) and He will give each one of us a fair test and a fair chance. He assigns the tests to suite each one of us and we believe that He will never burden any soul beyond its means (23:2).

And We have explained to man in this Qur`an every kind of similitude: yet the grater part of men refuse (to receive it) except with ingratitude! - Holy Quran 17:89

We have explained in detail in this Qur`an for the benefit of mankind every kind of similitude: but man is in most things contentious. - Holy Quran 18:54

We have put forth for men in this Qur`an every kind of Parable in order that they may receive admonition. - Holy Quran 39:27

The spouses that God have made from among ourselves are those that aid in producing children. Since the spouses in homosexual relationship would not produce children they are not the spouses God made from among ourselves.

And Allah has made for you mates (and companions) of your own nature. And made for you out of them sons and daughters and grandchildren and provided for you sustenance of the best: will they then believe in vain things and be ungrateful for Allah’s favors? - Holy Quran 16:72

With regard to dealing with homosexuals, the basic rule governing this would be 60:8 & 9.
Allah forbids you not with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just. Allah only forbids you with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith and drive you out of your homes and support (others) in driving you out from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances) that do wrong. - Holy Quran 60:8-9
*****

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Every human I personally believe has the tendency to be attracted to the same sex once in their lifetime, but then the question is if the person goes beyond and considers it as a possibility as well. The real test is to curb such desires and concentrate on the path prescribed by Islam.

With regards to the effect this has on the family. Males and females are essentially different and the way a male spouse handles a situation is different to the way a woman may perceive a given situation and handles a situation, and there in lies the thin balance. The balance May Not be achieved in case of two female spouses or two male spouses. The male spouse may not actually be Mummy incase of gay relationships and the female spouse may not really be like a Daddy in a lesbian situation.

{{Infact a child may suffer more if, belonging to such a lesbianish setup, ever heard of cat fights.... :) }}

(No intention of hurting Gay or Lesbian Chowkies)

However, Homosexuals deserve as much respect as any other human as we are all created EQUAL in the eyes of Allah in Islam and no one should mistreat them in any way.


[[ By the way, if one has watched the movie, they would realize that the intimacy felt by one girlfriend was not shared by the other. Infact the other, had no such lesbianish inclinations. So I really do not understand what the fuss is all about by Hindu radicals, when the movie is not highlighting such a relationship at all. It focuses, I believe more on obsession and psycho behavior. ]]

jawahara:

good post!

farzana:

when you say that this article has dealt with aspects other than religion, it is rather difficult not to talk about it, when you have put forth the question of why LGBT communities do not separate themselves from religion, and when for some folk culture and religion are somewhat enmeshed together.

``But if we wish to take this recent example, we will realise that Hindu culture is completely insensitive to anything close to modernity. At every point in time, modernity ought to include sensitisation towards marginalised groups.`` (italics mine)

i think my discomfort with this particular statement was expressed by jawahara. this does sound rather like a blanket statement, and an absolutist one at that. Hindu culture as defined by whom? certainly not the shiv saniks. or by some of the posters here who are virulently opposed to or physically sickened by same sex contact.

``There is rarely any talk about Christianity vs. modernity. . . .``

perhaps not all so publicly, but this is something that churches have been grappling with for quite a while now. many churches. as i was reading this, i was thinking of the church i used to go to a decade ago, a church in which certain members including the ministers wanted to change the mission statement to include the LGBT community. it was a struggle, but from what i recall they were successful. there is benjamin matthew williams. . and then there are those within various churches who struggle with remaining in them and opening them up because as jawahara said, ``it is comfortable. it is home. it is tradition.`` and the struggle continues. . .


jang,

thanks for responding back to me.

best,
n~

Re: Farzana

“Why do two young women, hot for each other, make a bunch of men get all excited? Excited enough to tear their posters, to go on a rampage at cinema halls and, when they have finally got off, to sit and talk about Indian culture?”

I would venture to guess that these same men who wax outraged and wax eloquent under a mob siege end up after the poster-tearing spree in the solitude of their bedrooms waxing their own poles. The mere sight of two lipstick lesbians is sufficient drive any man worth his salt to spank his monkey. If hot girl on girl action does not make you slap your dolphin you’re probably gay. Tell you the truth I’d like to have one of the posters myself. The great thing about posters is that you can use them after for cleaning up.

“But if we wish to take this recent example, we will realize that Hindu culture is completely insensitive to anything close to modernity.”

You must be out of your mind. How can you make a statement like that as an epilogue to Row Kavi’s article which has as its central premise the acceptance in Hindu culture of alternate sexuality. BTW, Ashok Row Kavi is without a doubt a modern Indian hero.

“This is the worrying aspect about the gay cult. It seeks to co-opt bisexuals who, if they were indeed inclined towards sodomy, could have perhaps been able to practice it in a heterosexual relationship, as many such couples do. Most ‘pure’ gays have always had a problem with bisexuality; they believe that it is a compromise.”

You haven’t the foggiest, lady. Anal sex amongst heterosexual couples has absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality. In fact a guy may willing to take it up the yin yang from his wife’s strap-on does not necessarily mean that he would offer up his back side to any Tom’s hairy dick.

There is no gay ‘cult’.

Most gays don’t have a problem with bisexuality. Again I refer you to Mr. Row Kavi’s article.


“Is it such insecurity the reason why so much time is wasted in explaining homosexuality in terms of an hormonal imbalance or a natural state of being? Why can’t gays just be happy?”

Your writing betrays an incredible lack of perception and knowledge about the most basic issues surrounding LGBT issues. You are ignorant, insensitive and opinionated. A dangerous mixture.

Sincerely,
Left Impression.


P.S: Left is a sexual deviant and I do not condone his views. Regards, Right Impression.

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#51 by Jawahara

Great post!!

Urstruly,

In one of your posts you mentioned that you are a `soorvanshi`.

Amazing!! If your forefathers had this impotency problem, how come your family still survives? Or did the generosity of Arabs help the cause?

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An intriguing article!

There is a simple answer to the question why men who find homsexuality between men repulsive are so turned on by lesbian women. The simple answer is ...whats better than 1 cake...2 cakes. Or so the common joke goes. However there is also something in the perceived notion of lesbianiam by these type of men, they find it perverse thus the women might be more receptive, the fact that those women will have nothing to do with men at all does not arise. There is a psuedo belief that two lesbian women are more open to sexual approach then a single straight woman. Complex diagnosis, but something like that.

There was a panaroma programme on BBC recently about some living Hindu God called Saeen Baba who likes Young Boys, specially young White boys. Some of his victims were interviewed and the lurid details of this pervert were put to a BJP minister who became absolutely furious by these facts and started verbally abusing the BBC interviewer on camera. This guy is apparently a mainstream Hindu Religious Leader yet nothing is made of this at all in India.

And I thought that our ``sideline`` Fundamentalists were crazy.

The more I read replies the more it `annoy`s me`
I am gay born and brought up in Karachi in a upper middle class family where forget homosexuality discussing about `sex` was taboo -- I was always in a labyrinth -- but astonishly i grew up as any other kid from the block -- was captain of cricket team , was head prefect was above everyone -- now settled in US with my better half married and been living togather for 9 years with one kid we are the happiest couple on earth ! my family finally agreed on our union and it was the most happiest day of my life. I fought everyone to be honest with teh system for lving the life I want to which is `to me as normal`.
Theres nothing feminish about us nothing at all we got out degrees and settled down in our respected fields and contributing to teh sucess of our families and our country (Pakistan).
As far as `gay poeple in Pakistan` are concerned, what I know is that there si a large community based in Karachi/Islamabad and Lahore which organize private parties and trips openly with about more then 2-3oo people at a same time. There presence is on internet and they got this irc channel called `gaypakistani` -- plus a very intresting website `www.gaypakistani.pixelsndots.com` on which you could see articles on politics/sexuality and love. In Pakistan society is changin fast and if you could notice (thanks to Geo in US) we could see some gay characters on dramas too now -- which is a good change .
So sexuality is something private .. gay people are noit sissy they could be more manly then straight people its that our people look at religioin everytime which says `homosexuality is a biggets sin` which is right -- I had a option wheer I had to be either a good muslim or someone I wanted to be (the way i was more dont maybe genes) and I decided to be someoen I wanted to be for teh sake of my love for the person I met 13 years ago.
I salute parents who accept theer kids the way they are I have seen many examples and many Pakistani couples living in Pakistan and abroad specially in US and UK.

#14 by nooralain on June 21, 2004 3:27pm PT

noorie

Temple carvings dont show boys (or youngsters) in sexual activity. Even homosexual carvings are extremely obscure. Out of thousands of erotic murals and carvings, i recall seeing only one man-man carving. Ancient greeks were very fond of boys apparently and european painters are very fond of cherubs. But you just dont see this in native indian art-forms, not even with greek-influenced gandgara forms. buxom women are all over the place, and offcourse chowkies are particularly well-informed about lingam-yoni stuff.

This is not to say that their is no mention of gender ambiguity in scriptures. Just that homosexuality finds little mention. In MahaBharat, there is mention of cross-dressing by Arjuna as a dance-teacher character (Brihanada) who coached a princess. I dont hoever recall if Arjuna later marries that student of his (someone more knowledgeble?). Kamal-hasan should make a movie on this.

Also, one very important character called Shihkandi is gender-ambiguous. Since Bhishma the warrior has a boon that he cannot be killed by man or a woman, he gets shot by Shikhandi. Their is however no mention of sexual exploits of Shikhandi, just a mention of the chanracter as of ``Napunsak`` gender (third gender).

So, in short, no boy-love, that seems to be an import. And hindu (indian) scriptures are not shy about explicit sexuality.