Lesbians vs. Gays vs. Hinduism vs. Modernity?

It is nothing but the perenial impotence and shrunken masculinity of Hindu males, that is making their women turn towards each other for which they cannot get otherwise. At least someone is benefitting from ``modernization``. So quite whinning, relax and let `em enjoy. It is something that bhagvan made, ok.

Interesting article, Farzana.

``But if we wish to take this recent example, we will realise that Hindu culture is completely insensitive to anything close to modernity.``

I think this is a rather blanket statement. Is the Sena brand of hindutva synonymous with Hindu culture? I am not sure that`s accurate. I bristle at those who say that the taliban style of Islam is synonymous with Islamic culture. The Sena is anti-modern and anti-anything that people choose that fall outside their narrow view of Hinduism. I don`t think that is the same as Hindu culture being opposed to modernity.

In India, I always thought, lesbianism was this secret that always existed but was tolerated. I remember it being discussed in whispers, especially when it involved someone we knew. However, gay men could get beaten up. The very suspicion of a man being gay could land him in a world of hurt. I remember this guy on a bus being beaten up to within an inch of his life because I guess he touched someone...gasp! another guy. I still remember the anger, fear and hatred on the faces of those beating him. This also happens in some cases when a girl who is molested appeals for help but this was something else.

I wonder why. I think what lesbians do is not really considered `real sex.` Hence, the reason hetero guys have the two women fantasy. It`s really seen as foreplay, tittilating and, therefore, not real sex. So, as long as women keep their lesbianism under wraps, they can indulge in it and be okay. And men had better keep their love for the same sex secret or end up being beaten up or killed.

It`s weird isn`t it, that in a country where men roam arm in arm and are physically so close, there remains this phobia about gay men. It`s only in the murky area of same sex sexuality that I personally think, women are somewhat safer in India than are men. So, while there has been a `Fire,` and now a `Girlfriend,` there has never really been a film about unambiguously gay characters. I shudder to think of the Sena reaction when/if that happens.

I think, however, most of the article comes off as being rather mixed up. What is the real premise? It also seems to sometimes a compilation of various truisms about gay and lesbian people. I have to confess that terms like ``the limp wristed kind,`` and ``the gay cult,`` troubled me.

`` If the intention of the gay community is to turn its back on organised religion, which makes it a victim, then why can it not seek a path outside of the ambit of such religions?``

That`s a really interesting question, isn`t it? Why do any of us choose to have something central to our lives legitimize our choices in life? Perhaps, religion and personal spirituality fulfils people so much that they cannot conceive that something that feels so right to them would deny them their integral lifestyle. Perhaps, it is the same reason I cling to my Muslim roots despite all the problems I have with the religion. It is comfortable. It is home. It is tradition.

This problem is clearly not faced just by gay or Muslim people. Senator John Kerry is struggling with this as he supports abortion and has been told he can not get communion because of that.

Homosexuality has always existed and it always will. Heck, there are homosexual animals in nature. Whether countries accept gay people or religions endorse them, they will remain. Yes, homosexuality will always be there. THe only difference (the modernity) is that gay people are now vocal about their rights. They are asserting their difference and their sameness. They are making clear that their sexuality is just one aspect of their being, just as being hetero is one aspect of ours. Yes, they do have to be politicized and open about it because that is the only path to acceptance or at least to live and let live. I think, to me, that is the modern path of homosexuality. To emerge from the shadows and gain their rightful place in society while openly asserting their sexuality.

Once (if) that happens the actual act of sex will return to the bedroom where it belongs with its cousin, hetero sex. Well that, or it will be exploited like hetero sex is, to sell cars and makeup and soft drinks and dreams and glamor. Now, that would be true equality.

Hi Farzana.
Not sure what the fuss is about. Or how this is about Hinduism and modernity.
Haven`t seen the film, but I understand that gay people don`t like their portrayal in it. Karan Razdan is not one of my fave people because of the way he treated his wife-but then I heard only one side of the story, I`m sure you heard both. My grandmother`s accepting of my gay friends, both male and female-when they`ve visited India, they`ve visited her. Some of her `gang` from the Ramakrishna Mission met them too. Last year, Parliament voted almost unanimously, I think to keep homosexuality illegal. I am happy to report that no split along religious lines was evident.

FV,

Here`s a damning indictment of `girlfriend` for being a waste of time and worse. Wondering how many so-called `moral guardians` and `journalists` Razdan paid to publicize this trash...

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film review of `Girlfriend` by liberal Outlook magazine

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Sometimes even a film critic`s job requires spunk and spirit. How else can you watch Girlfriend but with patience, fortitude and a sense of humour? In the beginning, the film`s suitably asinine for some unintentional laughs. At a time when Bollywood is trying hard not to believe in ``suspension of disbelief``, the film tries to pass off Mauritius for Bombay/Goa. Its characters do little more than drinking, dancing and screaming. There are some bona fide gems pretending to be dialogues: ``Main ek mard ke jism mein kaid aurat hoon....``, ``Ek ladka ladkon se pyaar nahin karta, ladki se karta hai....`` The protracted lesson on alphabets and numerals is absolutely priceless—our grievously affected, ``normal`` heroine Sapna (Amrita) and her irredeemably nitwit boyfriend (Ashish) keep saying 1-2-3-4 for l-o-v-e. How you wish they could grow up, learn mathematics and count ahead!

No wonder even laughing at the film becomes a bore chore. Sapna is dumb enough not to realise that her touchy-feely housemate Tanya (Isha) wants more than friendship, her excuse for what the two do between the sheets in the night: ``Raat mein main behosh ho jati hoon``. And then things take an ominous turn when even something as heinous as child sexual abuse becomes a joke: the trauma of the victim trivialised by an inane reference to a chocolate. The film keeps peddling all the clichés possible about a lesbian—that she is manly, wears trousers and leather jackets, likes to keep her hair short, rides mobikes, is a kickboxing expert, bashes up guys in night-clubs. She is a DIY guy who knows how to fix leaking taps.
Such is the attention to these details that the big-built, buxom Isha is made to look flat-chested even as the slight Amrita goes overly curvaceous. Having established the stereotypes, the film goes further. A lesbian has to be a man-hating psycho with a disturbed childhood behind her, the prototype of a Zakhmi Aurat seeking revenge. Since she is a deviant she can`t belong to the society and so will have to die. Wonder why Shiv Sena is carping so much about it when the film actually upholds their own opinion about homosexuality? In fact, the lesbian isn`t even a Hindu here but a Christian. So are the protests a ploy to get more heads into the halls and manage a mention in The Guardian? It`s the film buffs who should be protesting.

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URL is http://www.outlookindia.com/showtime.asp?fodname=20040628

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Farzana,

U are a disgrace to the community of `Writers` and its people like you who propagate unevenness in the society by using the word `Hinduism` anywhere and everywhere and also publicize your sick writing!!

So, this analysis pans `Hinduism` for being `anti-modern` because it does not support `buggery` a fact that is proven by Shiv Sena goons tearing posters of a sleazy movie that protrays lesbians as killers and suggests that lesbianism is a result of complexes arising out of molestation in childhood.

Hmmm!! As some film critic rightly pointed out, we should not see the movie; not because it is on homosexuality but because it is a poorly made movie. As someone rightly pointed out, it is not a movie for homosexuality but against it because it shows these people as `abnormal` and paints their sexual inclinations as a result of some psychological disorder.

Razdan appeared in a TV show and claimed that he was being `harrased` because he belonged to a `minority` community :-)

Razdan Sir, in India fools like you are a minority and I`m glad they are.

And Farzana ji,

Is homosexuality modernity? Are you modern?

A quick note:

I am glad to note that most interactors are sticking to the subject under discussion without resorting to terrible crudities that such a topic is amenable to. Thanks also for not picking out THAT one para and going to town about it…I will be here later to respond.

Re. the comment about whether I said some things in reply to Islam vs. modernity…I should think this article has dealt with other aspects besides religion. I admit though that the title was a tongue-in-cheek take…

PS: This is not a review of the film ‘Girlfriend’.

``however, i don`t know about the women - we don`t see too many of them in pakistan`` .............. may be not -- outside........the `Lihaf`

#42 by nazarhayatkhan

“As for the sodomy in legalized environment like marriage, Quran seems to find no problem with it ``women are your Khaeti (soil), till them as you like`` - Most Mullas agree with it –“

Not so fast my friend! Here is something for you to think about. Sodomy is not approved by the prophet.

Prophet Mohammad said: He who goes to magicians, have sex with their wives in periods or in their anus, denies the Shariah of Allah. -Tirmidhi and Masnad Imam Hanbal.
Prophet Mohammad said: Condemned are those men who have sex with their wives in their anus. -Abu-Dawood/Ibn-e-Maja.

I agree with you, it has not reach the level of a common issue in the South Asia. I would not call it a problem though. That would be insensitive.

i keep telling myself i am going to ignore the responses and respond to farzana, ignore the responses and respond to farzana *slaps forehead*, and yet. . .

and yet i am intrigued by einsteinwallah`s `women are natural lesbians` remark. all this time there has been no reason for me to be in the closet? or under a `lihaaf`? i keep trying to tell my ammi that i am a `natural` lesbian, but somehow that`s just too unnatural for her ears. when i go and see her, after i`ve dyed my hair blue and gotten that nosering i`ve wanted all my life, i will tell her that women are natural lesbians, and the trio. .hair, nosering, lesbian might just drive her over the edge!
women are natural lesbians. . .and that is why some of us are stupid enough to ruin our lives over men. . not because we`re denying ourselves to other women, but because some of us can`t live without the men we want to be with. . .imagine that.

vaisay how do women only threads (few and far between) on unplugged show that women are natural lesbians? is it the smooches, or the intimacy that we can`t seem to share with the men because they`re too much into gaaliyan and taaliyan? or is it our demeanor and the way some of us talk about men or to men? again, i think it`s great. all these avenues that have never been open to me before. perhaps the women on unplugged had no clue either.
and now i feel so liberated i can walk up to my best friend and sing `you make me feel, you make me feel, you make me feel like a natural lesbian. .` (with apologies to carole and aretha)

enough himaqat for now. now i`ve forgotten what i was going to say to farzana *slaps forehead*

Better if the Divine keeps out of the bed sheets with operative word of ``Mutual Consent between adults``.

This is genetic & natural - only the percentage of genes differ. We see everyday the ``masculine`` woman & the ``effiminate men``.

Havn`t we all had the same sex inclination in some stage in our teens including the desire for interaction with private parts.

The Mulla/Pundit/Padree crowd living in the most moralistic environment fall prey to it even more often (ref Hamidm2`s rejoinder) - as a rebellion - or as its forbiddenness makes it more pleasurable.

As for the sodomy in legalized environment like marriage, Quran seems to find no problem with it ``women are your Khaeti (soil), till them as you like`` - Most Mullas agree with it - Imam Khomeini having openly accepted it. Some women actually enjoy it more than the normal intercourse.

It is said that the Iranian girl friends offer themselves for sodomy, as a compromise, because normal intercourse could get them pregnant.

As Dost-Mitter said, society is more to blame than the Scriptures.

Also, it is not the biggest problem of South Asia.

NHK

Personally, I think this whole thing is to be viewed dispassionately if possible. If you get passionate, then good luck to all three of you in the privacy of your bedroom, or on the rocks, wherever.

Some motor vehicles have a bias control for brakes and/or motive power. You can adjust the brakes and/or power to give more or less on front, in the rear, sometimes on one side, this is like ABS or traction control. Sometimes hard, sometimes soft.

Likewise with heteros/homos, I think the Master Blaster in the Sky, controlling the bias switch, notches around with the bias control in favour of homos or heteros when population or gender ratio gets skewed. But, nobody is perfect, sometimes S/He Up In The Sky makes a mistake too.

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Lesbians are all behind us. Let’s talk about the new fad.

“Sounds strange but don`t blame me.
I work in a strip mall a few blocks from two different high schools.
Several times a day high school girls are coming through with PACIFIERS in their mouths! Several had them hanging from ribbons from their necks or a button hole on their shirt.
I talked to a couple of people I work with and they say it is all the rage now with these girls.
My girlfriend says it lets them be sexy.
Perhaps I am just getting old. What do you think?”

You can buy it here.

Dear Farzana:
I was expecting a review of a film from you - but of `Dev` which I intend to see and not `Girl Friend` which I don`t. Not because of the theme as such, but because, according to the reviews, it`s a frivolous and titilating film that merely exploits female sex. The film has been roundly criticised by a lesbian activist, Anjoli something for these reasons.

But what has hindu religion or even hinutva got to do with it? My knowledge of hindu scriptures is quite limited but I am not aware of their taking any position for or against homosexuality; the only restriction on sex seems to be this great emphasis on brahmcharya during bal-ashram. [unless Golwalkar issued a fatwa on this issue in his book!].

The agitation is simply an agitation of a conservative society which wants to keep all its taboos in the closets. It extends to all religions - just like preference for male child, honour killings, etc. Incidentally, Morarji turned your state (it was Bombay then!) into a dry place long before Zia thought of it in our neighbouring country, as it was not accepted by the conservative society. Now that the societal mores have changed, liquors flows freely. If the social mores change, the same will happen wrt homosexuality, regardless of what shiv-sainiks want. Indeed, they must have already gone radical transformation for the censors to have allowed this film; I am certain it would not have been passed during Nehru`s period when Hindutva and Shiv Sainiks were not even distant thunders.

And finally, are you sure that the shiv sainiks have not been paid by the producers of the film to generate free publicity for the film? It was on the BBC international news along with a provocative clip.

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Call me bigoted, call me old-fashioned, call me narrow-minded but I just can`t stand the sight of two guys kissing each other. I recently had the occasion to see two guys making out during a party and I must say it turned my stomach, I mean it literally had a physical effect on me, I though I was going to be sick. So I don`t give a rat`s ass about being politically correct or otherwise. I do NOT want to see that again.

Irfan.