Lesbians vs. Gays vs. Hinduism vs. Modernity?
Farzana Versey June 21, 2004
#164 Posted by jang on June 25, 2004 7:50:47 am
Yeah, and dont anyone say bad-stuff about Michael. Just Beat it ok, he is a Lover! He built the never-never land and all those laundas just want his money and the DA of Malibu is a racist, ( this i dont get since Michael is a born-again white). And the AP cops will not be able to accept-pursue an FIR for the same reason Mumbai Cops cannot sell confisticated Bhai property in Byculla.
Incidently Ferzana, there are also a lot of new Muslim Peers/Babas advertising on the Satellite Channels in the US. Are they also big bussiness in India or Gulf or something?
Incidently Ferzana, there are also a lot of new Muslim Peers/Babas advertising on the Satellite Channels in the US. Are they also big bussiness in India or Gulf or something?
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#163 Posted by scott on June 25, 2004 7:50:47 am
Whats wrong with Gay Godmen? Where do I sign up? Boy you guys are running scared. Tell me is it our fangs or our multiple heads that scare you? Or just the thought of us getting a head? We live, we breath and we die just the same as you. Our lives are not spent in thinking just about sex all the time. We work, have jobs and want to succeed as as much as the girl in the next cubicle. Most of us have very strong views on child abuse - do you think they are all done by gay men and Catholic priests? There is in my mind nothing more beautiful in the world than a child`s laughter.
So tell me what scares you most about us? That your husbands and brothers will abandon you for a brother in arm? Famlies will collapse?
The world will go on. Hetrosexual people will meet, marry, divorce and have kids (not necessarily in that order) and in the midst of this if some sex people meet and truely love each other what makes you think that your world will collapse? If I want to adopt some orphaned child and provide him/her with a future what makes you think only pedophila is on cards? Dad and Dad can love their kids as much as Mums and Dad or Mums and Stepdads or Dad and his new Partner.
Sorry for the outburst - feel much better now - don`t evne remembered what triggered it.
So tell me what scares you most about us? That your husbands and brothers will abandon you for a brother in arm? Famlies will collapse?
The world will go on. Hetrosexual people will meet, marry, divorce and have kids (not necessarily in that order) and in the midst of this if some sex people meet and truely love each other what makes you think that your world will collapse? If I want to adopt some orphaned child and provide him/her with a future what makes you think only pedophila is on cards? Dad and Dad can love their kids as much as Mums and Dad or Mums and Stepdads or Dad and his new Partner.
Sorry for the outburst - feel much better now - don`t evne remembered what triggered it.
#162 Posted by FarzanaVersey on June 25, 2004 7:50:31 am
Ref my post 160 below, the first sentence in the third para should read, ``It might be of interest that the person questioning me has made several allegations against me...``
#161 Posted by Saminasha on June 25, 2004 7:34:32 am
Jang and other people who are afraid to to think outside their prejudices-ignore the following poem and continue to live in your fantasy worlds in which you think you will be welcomed into God`s heaven.
All humane and fearless intellectuals, I was reminded of Mark Doty`s poem:
Adonis Theater
It must have seemed the apex of dreams,
The movie palace on Eighth Avenue
With its tiered chrome ticket-booth,
Tibetan, the phantom blonde head
Of the cashier floating
In its moon window. They’d undone each other
All over the neighborhood, raising
These blunt pastiches of anywhere
We couldn’t go: a pagoda, a future,
A Nepal. The avenue fed into the entry
With its glass case of radiant stars,
Their eyes dreamy and blown
Just beyond human proportions to prepare us
For how enormous they would become inside,
After the fantastic ballroom of the lobby,
When the uniformed usher would show the way
To seats reserved for us in heaven.
I don’t know when it closed,
Or if it ever shut down entirely,
But sometime-the forties?-
They stopped repainting the frescoes,
And when the plaster fell they merely
Swept it away, and allowed
The gaps in the garlands of fruit
That decked the ceiling above the second balcony.
The screen shrunk to a soiled blank
Where these smaller films began to unreel,
Glorifying not the face but the body
Or rather, bodies, ecstatic
And undifferentiated as one film ends
And the next begins its brief and awkward exposition
Before it reaches the essential
Matter of flesh. No one pays much attention
To the screen. The viewers wander
In the steady generous light washing back
Up the long aisles towards the booth.
Perhaps we’re hurt by becoming
Beautiful in the dark, whether we watch
Douglas Fairbanks escaping from a dreamed,
Suavely oriental city-think of those leaps
From the parapet, how he almost flies
From the grasp of whatever would limit him-
Or the banal athletics of two or more men who were
And probably remain strangers. Perhaps
There’s something cruel in the design
Of the exquisitely plaster box
Built to frame the exotic
And call it desirable. When the show’s over
Its is, whether it’s the last frame
Of Baghdad or the impossibly extended
Come shot. And the solitary viewers,
The voyeurs and the married men go home,
Released from the swinging chrome doors
With their splendid reliefs
Of the implements of artistry,
Released into the streets as though washed
In something, marked with some temporary tattoo
That will wear away on the train ride home,
Before anyone has time to punish them for it.
Something passing, even through the blood,
Momentarily, has broken into flower
In the palace of limitless desire-
How could one ever be done with a god?
All its illusion conspires,
As it always has, to show us one another
In this light, whether we look to
Or away from the screen.
--Mark Doty
From Turtle, Swan, & Bethlehem in Broad Daylight
All humane and fearless intellectuals, I was reminded of Mark Doty`s poem:
Adonis Theater
It must have seemed the apex of dreams,
The movie palace on Eighth Avenue
With its tiered chrome ticket-booth,
Tibetan, the phantom blonde head
Of the cashier floating
In its moon window. They’d undone each other
All over the neighborhood, raising
These blunt pastiches of anywhere
We couldn’t go: a pagoda, a future,
A Nepal. The avenue fed into the entry
With its glass case of radiant stars,
Their eyes dreamy and blown
Just beyond human proportions to prepare us
For how enormous they would become inside,
After the fantastic ballroom of the lobby,
When the uniformed usher would show the way
To seats reserved for us in heaven.
I don’t know when it closed,
Or if it ever shut down entirely,
But sometime-the forties?-
They stopped repainting the frescoes,
And when the plaster fell they merely
Swept it away, and allowed
The gaps in the garlands of fruit
That decked the ceiling above the second balcony.
The screen shrunk to a soiled blank
Where these smaller films began to unreel,
Glorifying not the face but the body
Or rather, bodies, ecstatic
And undifferentiated as one film ends
And the next begins its brief and awkward exposition
Before it reaches the essential
Matter of flesh. No one pays much attention
To the screen. The viewers wander
In the steady generous light washing back
Up the long aisles towards the booth.
Perhaps we’re hurt by becoming
Beautiful in the dark, whether we watch
Douglas Fairbanks escaping from a dreamed,
Suavely oriental city-think of those leaps
From the parapet, how he almost flies
From the grasp of whatever would limit him-
Or the banal athletics of two or more men who were
And probably remain strangers. Perhaps
There’s something cruel in the design
Of the exquisitely plaster box
Built to frame the exotic
And call it desirable. When the show’s over
Its is, whether it’s the last frame
Of Baghdad or the impossibly extended
Come shot. And the solitary viewers,
The voyeurs and the married men go home,
Released from the swinging chrome doors
With their splendid reliefs
Of the implements of artistry,
Released into the streets as though washed
In something, marked with some temporary tattoo
That will wear away on the train ride home,
Before anyone has time to punish them for it.
Something passing, even through the blood,
Momentarily, has broken into flower
In the palace of limitless desire-
How could one ever be done with a god?
All its illusion conspires,
As it always has, to show us one another
In this light, whether we look to
Or away from the screen.
--Mark Doty
From Turtle, Swan, & Bethlehem in Broad Daylight
#160 Posted by FarzanaVersey on June 25, 2004 7:24:50 am
As expected the issue has become one godman...blind belief garbed as admiration indeed. And now only because people already know there is a lot of material available against the Baba, I should not go along with it. What an argument! Just as those who have been to Puttarpathi Ashram can return and talk about the great work being done there, others who have had other kinds of experiences have expressed their thoughts. Some will agree with one, some with the other.
This is what I had written:``Why has there been no follow-up regarding the recent allegations against the famous baba who had sexually assaulted a boy?``
It might be of interest that the person questioning me has made several allegations (found two precious ones #32, 34 on the `Excavating India` board). Will anyone care to back these with proof? I will not even comment on the level of such discourse.
And for general information, I do not seek to get posts censored.
Re. Satya Sai Baba, those interested can run a search engine and you will find various aspects, positive and negative...you can also buy Sai incense sticks.
The following url interested me because it had reports from various papers and since it is from a decade-old, it shows that the matter is not new.
http://home.no.net/anir/Sai/enigma/PressEvidence.htm
There is also an online petition: http://www.petitiononline.com/saibaba/petition.html
I have no intention of commenting further on this godman on this board.
This is what I had written:``Why has there been no follow-up regarding the recent allegations against the famous baba who had sexually assaulted a boy?``
It might be of interest that the person questioning me has made several allegations (found two precious ones #32, 34 on the `Excavating India` board). Will anyone care to back these with proof? I will not even comment on the level of such discourse.
And for general information, I do not seek to get posts censored.
Re. Satya Sai Baba, those interested can run a search engine and you will find various aspects, positive and negative...you can also buy Sai incense sticks.
The following url interested me because it had reports from various papers and since it is from a decade-old, it shows that the matter is not new.
http://home.no.net/anir/Sai/enigma/PressEvidence.htm
There is also an online petition: http://www.petitiononline.com/saibaba/petition.html
I have no intention of commenting further on this godman on this board.
#159 Posted by Urstruly on June 25, 2004 6:37:20 am
resridhar
welcome back my friend. It made me shudder to think what would chowk be like without hindu religious nuts and bigots, we might then end up with just hamidm`s endless recycling of his tripe. (shuddering). I think some heeng is always necessary to spice up life.
welcome back my friend. It made me shudder to think what would chowk be like without hindu religious nuts and bigots, we might then end up with just hamidm`s endless recycling of his tripe. (shuddering). I think some heeng is always necessary to spice up life.
#158 Posted by harish_hyd on June 25, 2004 6:35:45 am
#155 by soundmeister
[people trust their lives to this god-man, not to mention their children`s. why should his behaviour be above question? if there really **have** been allegations of abuse aganinst him, the least we can do (and I don`t mean the authorities, half of whom are probably blind devotees themselves) is ask a few pointed questions. those who believe will continue to do so, a few sceptics won`t affect their faith.]
Fair enough, there have been numerous allegations against Sathya Sai Baba, and Farzana`s question is very valid, but may I add that not one, not one of these allegations has been proved. Again, isn`t the onus of proving him guilty on those who have made the allegations in the 1st place? I`m not a devotee of the Baba, though I live close enough (some 300 miles away) to be able to visit him whenever I wish, and I`ve passed his town on at least half-a-dozen occasions without caring to stop by. But c`mon, is it fair to hurl allegations at someone just because someone else has?
[people trust their lives to this god-man, not to mention their children`s. why should his behaviour be above question? if there really **have** been allegations of abuse aganinst him, the least we can do (and I don`t mean the authorities, half of whom are probably blind devotees themselves) is ask a few pointed questions. those who believe will continue to do so, a few sceptics won`t affect their faith.]
Fair enough, there have been numerous allegations against Sathya Sai Baba, and Farzana`s question is very valid, but may I add that not one, not one of these allegations has been proved. Again, isn`t the onus of proving him guilty on those who have made the allegations in the 1st place? I`m not a devotee of the Baba, though I live close enough (some 300 miles away) to be able to visit him whenever I wish, and I`ve passed his town on at least half-a-dozen occasions without caring to stop by. But c`mon, is it fair to hurl allegations at someone just because someone else has?
#157 Posted by SugarBaap on June 25, 2004 6:35:45 am
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#156 Posted by SaimaShah on June 24, 2004 10:28:28 pm
Farzana
I commend your boldness in taking up a thorny issue which somehow makes people insecure. It is always difficult to see the patterns one assumes as normal shaken up by alternative lifestyles and I am no different in that sense of overwhelming shock and fear. O my goodness, will heterosexual marriages be a thing of the past? will the safe sturdiness of family a man a woman and the kids disappear into singletons indulging in endless rounds of casual sex, gender regardless?? Are there no rules left in life to give order and predictability? No morals, no limits, no perfect family? Will we all be gay in a 100 years??
if it is of any use, people who have researched the gay issue say a few things that should reassure us:
1. Gaydom isnt catching; it is a tendency/a talent like hand eye coordination or depth perception.
2. The mind and the body have very subtle and unique connections. People feel sexual attraction both emotionally and physically. So people cant fall in love with one gender and have sex with another.
3. Gay people`s relationships survive against all odds in many many cases.
4. They suffer the same agonies of love that the rest of us do.
The interesting thing is that gay researchers are the ones who tend to put out research on gay lifestyles marriages and parenting. So we really dont have a totally objective yardstick assuming that our often dysfunctional heterosexuals are the yardstick.
I have little idea why people are so upset with you. wish you the best. The only thing that bothered me slightly were a few sweeping generalizations. I am guessing you have your observations to back you up.
I commend your boldness in taking up a thorny issue which somehow makes people insecure. It is always difficult to see the patterns one assumes as normal shaken up by alternative lifestyles and I am no different in that sense of overwhelming shock and fear. O my goodness, will heterosexual marriages be a thing of the past? will the safe sturdiness of family a man a woman and the kids disappear into singletons indulging in endless rounds of casual sex, gender regardless?? Are there no rules left in life to give order and predictability? No morals, no limits, no perfect family? Will we all be gay in a 100 years??
if it is of any use, people who have researched the gay issue say a few things that should reassure us:
1. Gaydom isnt catching; it is a tendency/a talent like hand eye coordination or depth perception.
2. The mind and the body have very subtle and unique connections. People feel sexual attraction both emotionally and physically. So people cant fall in love with one gender and have sex with another.
3. Gay people`s relationships survive against all odds in many many cases.
4. They suffer the same agonies of love that the rest of us do.
The interesting thing is that gay researchers are the ones who tend to put out research on gay lifestyles marriages and parenting. So we really dont have a totally objective yardstick assuming that our often dysfunctional heterosexuals are the yardstick.
I have little idea why people are so upset with you. wish you the best. The only thing that bothered me slightly were a few sweeping generalizations. I am guessing you have your observations to back you up.
#155 Posted by soundmeister on June 24, 2004 10:06:44 pm
hey sridhar, for someone who swore off this board you sure stop by a lot!
i think farzie`s question is very fair. people trust their lives to this god-man, not to mention their children`s. why should his behaviour be above question? if there really **have** been allegations of abuse aganinst him, the least we can do (and I don`t mean the authorities, half of whom are probably blind devotees themselves) is ask a few pointed questions. those who believe will continue to do so, a few sceptics won`t affect their faith.
what I find disturbing is your apparent assumption that nobody should dare question the man just because he has done some good in his life (which is undeniable fact).
i think farzie`s question is very fair. people trust their lives to this god-man, not to mention their children`s. why should his behaviour be above question? if there really **have** been allegations of abuse aganinst him, the least we can do (and I don`t mean the authorities, half of whom are probably blind devotees themselves) is ask a few pointed questions. those who believe will continue to do so, a few sceptics won`t affect their faith.
what I find disturbing is your apparent assumption that nobody should dare question the man just because he has done some good in his life (which is undeniable fact).
#154 Posted by rsridhar on June 24, 2004 9:06:43 pm
re: #151
``There is a superspeaciality hospital that has 3 free by-pass surgeries.``
The above should read: ``There is a superspeciality hospital that performs about 3 bypass surgeries a day free of cost``
Sridhar
``There is a superspeaciality hospital that has 3 free by-pass surgeries.``
The above should read: ``There is a superspeciality hospital that performs about 3 bypass surgeries a day free of cost``
Sridhar
#153 Posted by rsridhar on June 24, 2004 7:39:24 pm
re: #129 by nooralain
Not accused!
Reread the following sentence she wrote:
``Why has there been no follow-up regarding the recent allegations against the famous baba who had sexually assaulted a boy? Because he was sanctified by religion?``
Farzanabibi has already decided that the allegations are true but questioning why nobody is protesting. I think, unless this woman has made some grammatical error in framing a sentence (which is taught in the fifth grade level in school), i think i am right in saying what is said. Let her come and clarify if she meant differently.
Where is she hiding anyway?
Sridhar
Not accused!
Reread the following sentence she wrote:
``Why has there been no follow-up regarding the recent allegations against the famous baba who had sexually assaulted a boy? Because he was sanctified by religion?``
Farzanabibi has already decided that the allegations are true but questioning why nobody is protesting. I think, unless this woman has made some grammatical error in framing a sentence (which is taught in the fifth grade level in school), i think i am right in saying what is said. Let her come and clarify if she meant differently.
Where is she hiding anyway?
Sridhar
#152 Posted by rsridhar on June 24, 2004 7:39:24 pm
re: Urstruly, Noorlain
Could i have expected anything different from u people?
re: Ralph`s post
You may not believe and that is O.K. BTW, i am not a sai baba follower. Just an admirer. I visited that place (Puttaparthy) some years ago and was impressed by the way that saint has turned it around. There is free education till the college level. There is a superspeaciality hospital that has 3 free by-pass surgeries. Doctors from the world over give free time to serve there. It is just amazing.
But, as i said, you or anyone else do not have to believe in it. One however must show some respect to a person who has 100 million followers all over the world. Farzana bibi just throws words to the winds. A journalist has to be careful what he/she writes. Is that asking for too much?
Sridhar
Could i have expected anything different from u people?
re: Ralph`s post
You may not believe and that is O.K. BTW, i am not a sai baba follower. Just an admirer. I visited that place (Puttaparthy) some years ago and was impressed by the way that saint has turned it around. There is free education till the college level. There is a superspeaciality hospital that has 3 free by-pass surgeries. Doctors from the world over give free time to serve there. It is just amazing.
But, as i said, you or anyone else do not have to believe in it. One however must show some respect to a person who has 100 million followers all over the world. Farzana bibi just throws words to the winds. A journalist has to be careful what he/she writes. Is that asking for too much?
Sridhar
#151 Posted by rsridhar on June 24, 2004 7:39:24 pm
re:#135 by AlephNull
Thanks for the post.
I joined Chowk in the beginning of 2001 and it has been 3 years and more than 2000 posts already. I have seen some good people leave. People like Shashi, Prem etc. It was fun and one could argue with some passion.
Chowk has not evolved the way i thought it would. Hardliners would not ever give in even when confronted with the truth. I think it is asking for too much but i also get very worked up when plain stupid articles get published and people waste time debating on it.
I saw a program on TV on my visit to India sometime ago and it was about the increasing episodes of kissing in public places in India (i have never seen one!) and i thought: was this a relevant topic? Is this the burning issue?
In the same vein: is lesbianism a relevant topic (BTW, i tried to see the movie Girlfriend and could not finish it. it just sucks)?
Anyway, i will take sometime from Chowk and see how it works. If i am addicted (i hope not!), i will come back and hope people won`t take me to task for it. Otherwise, it is adieus and goodbye to all (yes, that includes Urstruly, Romair and the like; i had fun whipping you guys and you know it!).
Sridhar
PS: Thanks again for your kind words
Thanks for the post.
I joined Chowk in the beginning of 2001 and it has been 3 years and more than 2000 posts already. I have seen some good people leave. People like Shashi, Prem etc. It was fun and one could argue with some passion.
Chowk has not evolved the way i thought it would. Hardliners would not ever give in even when confronted with the truth. I think it is asking for too much but i also get very worked up when plain stupid articles get published and people waste time debating on it.
I saw a program on TV on my visit to India sometime ago and it was about the increasing episodes of kissing in public places in India (i have never seen one!) and i thought: was this a relevant topic? Is this the burning issue?
In the same vein: is lesbianism a relevant topic (BTW, i tried to see the movie Girlfriend and could not finish it. it just sucks)?
Anyway, i will take sometime from Chowk and see how it works. If i am addicted (i hope not!), i will come back and hope people won`t take me to task for it. Otherwise, it is adieus and goodbye to all (yes, that includes Urstruly, Romair and the like; i had fun whipping you guys and you know it!).
Sridhar
PS: Thanks again for your kind words
#150 Posted by rsridhar on June 24, 2004 7:39:24 pm
re: Gujjubania`s post to me
I like u but did not like the way u went about defaming a whole community. Muslims are a part of India and India is enriched by their presence. Where would we be without Md Rafi, Naushad, Bade Ghulam Ali Khan, Duleep Kumar etc. Can we say we do not want muslims but want the Taj Mahal? It is just a POV and may be i am an just old fashioned fool. My secularim of course comes from a deep understanding of hinduism and its scriptures. Nowhere have i read about hatred against other religions.
That apart, i hope u realize none of what i said to u or others is to be taken personally. Still. i apologise to u and othere if i have caused any hurt.
Sridhar
P.S: Gujjubania, if u are really in your teens, then it is i who envy u. You seem precoccious for your age. I hope u steer your brainpower in the right direction and not be a victim of hate.
I like u but did not like the way u went about defaming a whole community. Muslims are a part of India and India is enriched by their presence. Where would we be without Md Rafi, Naushad, Bade Ghulam Ali Khan, Duleep Kumar etc. Can we say we do not want muslims but want the Taj Mahal? It is just a POV and may be i am an just old fashioned fool. My secularim of course comes from a deep understanding of hinduism and its scriptures. Nowhere have i read about hatred against other religions.
That apart, i hope u realize none of what i said to u or others is to be taken personally. Still. i apologise to u and othere if i have caused any hurt.
Sridhar
P.S: Gujjubania, if u are really in your teens, then it is i who envy u. You seem precoccious for your age. I hope u steer your brainpower in the right direction and not be a victim of hate.
#149 Posted by nooralain on June 24, 2004 6:00:00 pm
nikki7777
your responses personally are incredibly pathetic and not at all amusing. and whoever you are, you don`t deserve any more responses. everyone of course is free to offer their opinions here, but if you are using what you call intelligence to offer your opinions on anyone and everyone at this site, you`d better think again brotherman. give us facts, don`t give us your messed up excuses for `writing`.
and if you call this tripe, it`s still steps above what comes from the sewer (and below). . .
just for the record, and your information. . .this is not an anti- anything site. it`s the people who make this anti-this or anti-that. you make this an anti-pakistani, anti-punjabi, anti-kashmiri, anti-bhagwaan jaane place. and your pathetic imagination chooses to consider this an anti-indian site. if this is where you want to let off your droppings, be my guest. . .some of us prefer to keep far away from your stink. . .and i hope farzana does just that. you just ain`t worth it baybeh.
your responses personally are incredibly pathetic and not at all amusing. and whoever you are, you don`t deserve any more responses. everyone of course is free to offer their opinions here, but if you are using what you call intelligence to offer your opinions on anyone and everyone at this site, you`d better think again brotherman. give us facts, don`t give us your messed up excuses for `writing`.
and if you call this tripe, it`s still steps above what comes from the sewer (and below). . .
just for the record, and your information. . .this is not an anti- anything site. it`s the people who make this anti-this or anti-that. you make this an anti-pakistani, anti-punjabi, anti-kashmiri, anti-bhagwaan jaane place. and your pathetic imagination chooses to consider this an anti-indian site. if this is where you want to let off your droppings, be my guest. . .some of us prefer to keep far away from your stink. . .and i hope farzana does just that. you just ain`t worth it baybeh.
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