Lesbians vs. Gays vs. Hinduism vs. Modernity?

okay this is where it all started, india and it heritage are really effecting neigbor uring countries

Ref Sangilikaruppan #209

[I haven`t expressed any ``concern`` for the ``criminal tribes.`` You must be confusing me with dost-mittarji. If you spent half the time you`re spending on guessing the caste origins of people you don`t know, on getting some medical help, you may have some hope of gaining sanity...]

If you haven`t expressed any concerns for the criminal tribes of India, that would only be because the criminals are in power there now and you feel safe.

One longs for the days of yore when mobility between castes was possible. You would then definitely be assigned the caste of professional thieves based on your criminal activities and accomplishments so far. The act of stealing the professional education seat reserved for Dalits stands out as the first step in your criminal career.

#208
Your effort to hang yourself with your pooNool (sacred thread) is duly noted. I haven`t expressed any ``concern`` for the ``criminal tribes.`` You must be confusing me with dost-mittarji. If you spent half the time you`re spending on guessing the caste origins of people you don`t know, on getting some medical help, you may have some hope of gaining sanity...

Ref dost-mittar #207

You must understand that Sangilikaruppan`s (aka Soysauce) concern about profiling or for the criminal tribes of India has no altruistic basis but is rooted in self-interest.

After all, he is likely a member of the Kallar caste (caste of professional thieves) of Tamil Nadu. To hide this, he calls himself a Marava, a Thevar or as belonging to the Mukkulatthor caste but a thief is a thief. Naturally, he is concerned about profiling for he is likely to pop up as the criminal element of society.

soysauce:
I am not sure that those people were making attempts in the 10 years prior to 9/11 with the same vigour - Bush`s `war on terrorism` hadn`t yet started. As far `criminal tribes`, I had said that the practice was continued even after the partition. Sometimes back, I read about the `criminal tribes` creating problems in the Noida area near Delhi.

I do not like being profiled. Nobody does (unless it is in a positive way, such as bengalis are intellectuals or south indians are geniuses in maths!). But I am willing to put up with the inconvenience as long as my personal ``costs`` do not outweigh societal benefits.

#205
dost-mittarji, it`s early yet to tell if profiling is working in the US. Not profiling also worked for almost 10 years. This line of argument therefore is specious.
You seem to be saying that just because we as individuals or groups stereotype, it`s OK for government to do the same. I disagree.
Finally, i`m confused as to why you are accusing ``bleeding-heart liberals`` of not condemning something that happened during the Raj. Are you expecting these liberals to take a stand on everything that happened in history? Sounds like something the khaki shorts would be demanding, not a paki-hugging punjabi like you.

soysauce:
I was talking about the statistical basis of profiling, which is different from something based on prejudice. It is essential when it is impractical to suspect each and every person about whom you do not have any information and subject them to the same screening. And it appears to be working. Since 9/11 when the profiling started, there has not been any case of terrorism in North America; I cannot believe that people who want to harm the US are not trying to get in; it has to be due in part to the profiling used to screen people. The key thing is that even after profiling, the overwhelming majority of muslims are not denied admission into the profiling countries. We all do mental profiling; for a long time people wouldn`t rent their houses to Panjabis in Delhi, even Panjabis. I find that offensive, because people were not merely suspecting panjabis but even assuming them to be a troublemaker. But there was good reason for people to suspect panjabis, because there was empirical evidence of a high correlation between panjabi tenants and defaults.

The `criminal tribes` were a legacy of the British Raj; the police classified many tribes as criminals; I think that the practice was continued in India even after the British left.

#194
Being a statistician by trade, I fully understand the reasons for profiling and prejudice is not the only one. Inspectors who are looking for a potential target have to work on a limited information model; the only basis for developing a `maximum likelihood model` is from past empirical data, which is prejoratively known as `profiling`. But I draw the difference between suspicion and accusation; while I understand an inspector`s reason for suspecting me I would find it unacceptable if, after questioning, I were stopped from admission on the basis of my place of birth, religion and a pakistani visa.

Dost-mittarji, are you saying there are incidences of bearded men and veiled women doing harm to indians in statistically sufficient numbers that profiling them would be warranted? I don`t think even the brits would claim that people fitting these profiles have done them any harm. Bringing in statistical arguments to buttress a practice based on prejudice is like putting lip stick on a pig and calling it a lady...
Profiling, referred to pejoratively, is simply another name for prejudice. That prejudice is not based on statistics but on politics and individual beliefs. Blacks are profiled extensively in the US and the condition has come to be called ``Driving While Black.`` Depending on how you cite the statistics (Number of blacks cited for an infraction as a percentage of their total number in the population or total number pulled over) the practice is either derided or praised. Here`s a case of statistics serving the purpose of its practitioner and not at all objective.
I didn`t get your reference to ``criminal tribes``. Are you saying you have some statistical proof that there are such?

14 arrested for hoisting Pak flag in Karnataka
Our pakistani friends here will be happy to see this.


http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=33194

Press Trust of India
Posted online: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 at 1504 hours IST

Davanagere (Karnataka), June 29: Police have arrested 14 people for allegedly hoisting a Pakistani flag at a place of worship at Chinur village in the district.

Police said all the detainees have been remanded to judicial custody till July 9 by a court here.

The arrests were made on Monday after protestors gathered outside the police station following the flag hoisting incident and demanded immediate action.

Senior police officials visited the place and ensured that the flag was removed.

Additional police forces from Davangere were sent to Chinur, where the situation is normal.

Why profiling of Muslims is a must.

The fact is that Muslims are the greatest and most comprehensive official profilers on the planet. Whether or not you profile Muslims, Muslim states and groups profile you as surely as there is night after day.

Porfiling has always been considered a natural and acceptable practice. People don`t ask Islamic states to become non Islamic because there is nothing unusual or wrong about profiling people based on religion. Three turks hostages were released today. Good for these poor souls, but they saved their lives only because Muslim groups, like Muslim states, profile people based on religion.

I could go on giving examples because profiling is as common and natural, as I said, breathing. We do not have an organization of Christian countries but we have an organization of Islamic countries because Muslim states profile the entire humanity. Nobody would consider the Red Cross to be a religious organization, except Muslims, who have a Red Crescent. There are no calls for creating a buddhist, sikh, hindu, or christian United Nations, but there are regular calls for creating an Islamic United Nations. Why, because non profiling is an unnatural act for them. Who has ever seen groups of Muslim liberals protest?

You are being profiled. Whether or not you profile is your decision. But if you choose to risk your life and your religious liberty, you have a right to make decisions only about yourself, not about others.


Urstruly

Taliban had every right to profile Hindus if they had evidence of some Hindus receiving funds from India to overthrow the Taliban. Profiling is not the same thing as making followers of certain religions wear particular bands. That is an Islamic issue which you need to sort out.

#184 by ankit

`` A piece by Tavleen Singh

http://iecolumnists.expressindia.com/full_column.php?content_id=49831

Why we are a soft target for terrorists

On the morning that the American engineer, Paul Johnson, was beheaded by his terrorist captors in Saudi Arabia I happened to be arriving in London. At Heathrow airport, ahead of me in the immigration queue, was a Muslim family of sub-continental origin. The man wore an Islamic beard and looked as if dressed for Friday prayers. Skullcap, short pyjamas and long kurta and the three women accompanying him were so totally veiled that only their eyes showed. The orthodoxy of their attire or the beheading in Saudi Arabia must have been playing on the mind of the British immigration officer ``

What puzzles me about that muslim and his family is why did he even bother to immigrate to the west. The man is obviously obsessed with his religion/culture ( or whatever the cr@p that is ) and wants TO STICK TO HIS ROOTS. I got a better idea for these third world immigrants.... THE BEST WAY TO STICK TO YOUR ROOTS IS TO STAY BACK IN THE SEWER OF YOUR HOME COUNTRY.

Urstruly:
Thanks for the poem. I did not say that my children dont think I am a good man. They are my children but they are no longer `children`. They are politically conscious and we do have honest discussions about various contemporary issues. And yes, I should always try to measure up to their expectations. It`s not always easy, though, since their values (canadian) are not the same as mine (desi canadian!). I am too conservative for them and you would be a lot more conservative in their opinion than I am, except for your views about globalisation.
...and I do admit my prejudices and biases to them, which they appreciate.

dost mitter

Actually I think, it should be matter of shame for you that your children call you prejudiced. Children cannot lie. Listen to them and try to be a good man before it is too late. Here is a poem that I read the other day and I thought you might like it:

mera baap kitna tanha hay! kitna udaas hay!

mera baap!

mera baap!

mera baap!

apne baap ki izzat kar!

apne baap ke larazte qadam daikh

daikh keh yeh saya-e-sooraj gharoob ke khauf se laraz raha he

daikh yeh saya shaam ki zulmat se jhaggaR raha he

daikh aur sauch!

yeh saya kaheen tera apna to nahiN?

urstruly:
Religion is not the only variable in profiling; demographics, appearance, occupation, countries visited are some of the other important variables. I have been profiled and I am not a muslim nor do I have a muslim sounding name...And you dont have to be shy, my children call me prejudiced too for some of my views, and they don`t hate me!

#193 by Ralph

Agree with you. Profiling happens all the time in our daily lives. We constantly favor or discriminate against a person based on our analysis, whether right or wrong. So just what`s wrong with the profiling of adherents of a certain religion when there are more than a fair share of them claiming to be fighting for a religious cause? I think it is better to err on the side of caution and by profiling, most countries are doing exactly that.

Harish

Aah . . . bleeding hearts and sacred cows and feet of clay . . . Dost Mittar, you have travelled the world, without documents to start with, and with them subsequently, so I am sure you understand . . . bleeding hearts evacuate copiously as per the need of the moment.

Initial article by FV was on lesbians gays and Hinduism and modernity . . . so in any case, the movie has now vanished, sunk without trace as all garbage eventually does. (Garbage unrelated to sexual orientation, religion or ``modernity``, btw.

So a consensus is emerging among hindus now that profiling of muslims is as natural as breathing. Excuse me but aren`t you the people who once were choking when Taliban were profiling hindus living in Afghanisan by making them wear yellow arm bands. Keep in mind that taliban didn`t do it because hindus were hindus but because hindustan was actively pumping in weapons and money to destabilize taliban, thru northern alliance. I am not saying that you hindu people are hypocrites but I just want to know what is the statistical probability that a hindu residing in afghanistan might be facilitating in the said destabilization.

soysauce:
We do indeed disagree! Being born in Pakistan and having a Pakistani visa stamped on my passport, I am these days a prime candidate for profiling and indeed have been taken for secondary examination twice and `randomly` selected for screening. Being a statistician by trade, I fully understand the reasons for profiling and prejudice is not the only one. Inspectors who are looking for a potential target have to work on a limited information model; the only basis for developing a `maximum likelihood model` is from past empirical data, which is prejoratively known as `profiling`. But I draw the difference between suspicion and accusation; while I understand an inspector`s reason for suspecting me I would find it unacceptable if, after questioning, I were stopped from admission on the basis of my place of birth, religion and a pakistani visa.
..and yes, sikhs were subjected to racial profiling during those days and still are to a lesser extent.

And how come none of the bleeding hearts ever complains about the horrendous practice of calling a whole goup of people ``criminal tribes``?

soysauce #192

Profiling is as natural, human, and reasonable as breathing. Unless we constantly profile people, our information processing capabilities will be quickly overwhelmed. Where there is greater uncertainty, greater profiling must invariably follow.

Like it or not, after 9/11, a group of bearded middle eastern man carrying leaflets printed in arabic will cause greater concern among the passengers of an airline than will a group of old white ladies wishing good byes to their grand children.

During the Khalistan movement, I doubt if Sikhs did not have to bear the brunt of extra security.

We will have to ask some Sikhs to help us out.

Dostmittar #190

That reminds me of the incident during the Lok Sabha elections this April where PDP president Mehbooba Mufti lifted the veil of a burqa-clad woman voter under the suspicion that she was bogus. There also seems to be reason to believe that terrorists in Kashmir have used the burqa to move about more freely than they could otherwise. I think Tavleen Singh’s concerns are quite valid.

#190
Huh? The incident that Tavleen Singh describes appears to be a case of `profiling` of muslims and I think Ms. Singh is saying that should be OK in india. I think that is bigotry and therefore, no, we are not in agreement. Profiling does not require any other reason to be suspicious. It`s enough if a person belongs to a certain category which in this case appears to be religious muslim. Profiling is stupid, arrogant, alienating and ineffective.
I do wonder if Ms. Singh would have approved of searching sikh men and women extra carefully during the khalistan movement? From what I know EVERYONE was searched carefully, sikh or not. That was not only humane but also EFFECTIVE.

soysauce:
``Bearded men and veiled women have lived in india for centuries as indian citizen and for Ms. Singh to claim that profiling of the sort done in a foreign airport should be acceptable to indians (muslims or hindus) betrays bigotry, confusion or both.``

I dont think that Ms singh would disagree. I might add that a muslim woman at heathrow is also not a strange sight anymore. Before 9/11, the poor women wouldn`t have been put through the hassle that they were in Ms Singh`s queue. But supposing that an indian inspector had reason to be suspicious, subjected these women to a similar intense questioning only to find out that they were totally innocent, wouldn`t some people have harassed the poor inspector out of his/her job?

I think that Ms singh was using this incident to make the point that those criticising should not pick one particular community for communalism or bigotry. A sonia gandhi finding a cabinet seat for someone accused of leading anti-sikh mobs in `84 is as hypocritical in asking the removal of Modi as the BJP asking for the removal of Tytler while not doing anything about Modi.

I muddled my last post. Corrected version below:
#186 dost-mittarji,
In the part that you fully agree with, Ms. Singh makes a point that`s uncontestable by its very nature (I for one asked what was she (Ishrat) doing with those characters), repeats the insinuation that they (these characters) were after Modi and then tries to establish her (own) credibility by arguing that she is holier than the civil rights groups. A through and through political, self-aggrandizing statement.
The essay itself seems targeted at a certain kind of audience and an artificial attempt at balance permeates it. Bearded men and veiled women have lived in india for centuries as indian citizens and for Ms. Singh to claim that profiling of the sort done in a foreign airport should be acceptable to indians (muslims or hindus) betrays bigotry, confusion or both. If this woman is a progressive, india is in big trouble.

Innocence Betrayed

The involvement of Ishrat Jehan, an educated middle-class girl, in a terrorist plot is a pointer to the fading faith in the system. The plot, the encounter to bust it and the uproar symbolise the sense of disquiet in civil society.

By Uday Mahurkar and Sheela Raval


It was the first spell of monsoon. Shamima Shaikh and three of her daughters were lazily surfing channels in their two-room apartment in Hasmat Park in the dreary township of Mumbra on the outskirts of Mumbai. Even as they settled down to watch a popular family melodrama, there was loud knocking on the door. Shamima`s eldest daughter Zeenat Jehan opened the door only to find herself facing a battery of cameras and microphones. Mediapeople asked her about her sister Ishrat Jehan. Bewildered by the clamour, Zeenat just about made sense of the fact that Ishrat had been killed in a police encounter the previous morning on the outskirts of Ahmedabad.

It was as if melodrama had come knocking and soon enough the lower middle-class family found themselves unwittingly starring in one. The second child of Mohammed and Shamima, the 19-year-old, five ft two inches, good looking and seemingly happy go lucky Ishrat was gunned down with three other alleged operatives of the dreaded Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT). They were allegedly on a mission to kill Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi. Ishrat was with her friend Javed Shaikh alias Pranesh Kumar Pillai and two others, Zeeshan Johar alias Janbaaz and Amjad Ali Rana alias Salim, identified as LeT suicide squad members and citizens of Pakistan.

UNANSWERED QUESTIONS
Did Ishrat`s family know of Javed`s LeT links and, therefore, her activities?
How come no policeman was injured despite 42 rounds being fired by the terrorists?

Why hadn`t the police arrested Javed and Ishrat on their earlier visits to Gujarat?

How were the terrorists planning to eliminate Narendra Modi?
As the family rushed to the neighbours to borrow a newspaper, the news had already gripped this small hick town and the nation. ``This can`t be true`` was the initial public reaction. Zeenat claims, ``Ishrat has never killed an ant; just forget about her going on a murder mission. How can a caring person like her, who fends for her entire family, be a terrorist?``

Testimonials of Ishrat`s good character and behaviour poured in from school and college teachers, neighbours and friends. To Safia Qureshi, a neighbour, ``Ishrat was a model daughter and sister who was mature enough at a tender age to support the family.`` Down south, in Kerala, M.R. Gopinatha Pillai, 67, a middle-class farmer and Congress activist, couldn`t believe that his son Pranesh (alias Javed) could be involved in terrorist activities.

Conspiracy swirled with cordite as politicians barged into the din. The pre-election environment in Maharashtra triggered curious reactions, charges and demands. NCP leader Vasant Dhavkare rushed to donate Rs 1 lakh to the family, Maharashtra Chief Minister Sushil Kumar Shinde was cornered in Delhi and pressured to hand over the case to the CBI, M. Siddiqui, a Mumbai Congressman, said the encounter was engineered to save Modi from being ousted and Abu Azmi of the Samajwadi Party dubbed the encounter a fake and promised to take it up with the President of India.

The doubts over the genuineness of the encounter are not unexpected. A self-confessed gangster Ketan Tirodkar has alleged on a sworn affidavit in the MCOCA court in Mumbai that he and encounter specialist Daya Nayak delivered one Sadiq Mehtar as a target for an encounter for the Gujarat Police in January 2003. Mehtar was dubbed a LeT operative and killed. While the court has admitted the statement as a petition and is looking into the charges, the credibility of the police has been seriously eroded.

The June 15 encounter also raises several questions ranging from the timing of the incident to the manner in which the police were found scrambling to prove their case. Perhaps it is the lack of credibility that dogs the police force-particularly the Gujarat Police-across the country.

But P.P. Pande, joint commissioner of police, Ahmedabad Crime Branch, doesn`t think so and brushed off allegations of the encounter being stage managed: ``Thanks to the coordination of intelligence and security agencies, we have been able to avert a great calamity.``

T H E E N C O U N T E R
A 15-km chase, an exchange of 112 rounds of fire and four dead.
JUNE 12: Ishrat and Javed leave for Ahmedabad. Halt at Malegaon and reach Ahmedabad on June 13.
JUNE 13: Make recce of Chief Minister Narendra Modi`s residence and other places along with Salim and Janbaaz.

JUNE 14: Ahmedabad Crime Branch receives message at 11 p.m. that four persons in a blue Indica were suspected terrorists. Target: Modi.

JUNE 15: Less than 90 minutes after the message, the Ahmedabad Police seal off entry points and six police teams are out.

JUNE 15: 4 a.m. A team led by ACP Narendra Amin at Narol Circle sees a blue Indica coming from Mumbai zoom past them towards Naroda. Amin`s team intercepts the Indica after a 15 km chase. His guard fires his AK-47 at the tyres bringing the car to a halt near the road divider.

JUNE 15: Around 4:30 a.m.: A terrorist jumps out of the car and starts firing at Amin`s vehicle with an AK-56 after taking cover behind his car. Another team led by ACP P. Singhal fires from the other side. After eight minutes, the firing ceases from the terrorists` side. Score: terrorists fired 42 rounds and police 70 rounds.

THE BOOTY: Police recovered from the Indica one AK-56, one pistol, a satellite phone (its record is still being ascertained), diaries believed to be those of Ishrat, Salim and Javed with details. From the boot of the Indica the police recovered several coconuts and a sack of yellow powder which is being examined by forensic experts. The coconuts indicate that the four also intended to target a place of worship or a religious gathering, perhaps the Jagannath rath yatra in Ahmedabad to be held three days later.

D E A D L Y F O U R S O M E
A student, an electrician and the LeT

ISHRAT JEHAN RAZA, 19: Part-time teacher, first-year BSc student. Resident of Hasmat Park, Mumbra. Was in the front seat next to Javed. No criminal record.

ZEESHAN JOHAR ALIAS JANBAAZ: LeT operative. Resident of Gujranwala in Pakistan, he entered India illegally. Sitting in back seat with Salim, he also fired a pistol.

AMJAD ALI AKBAR RANA ALIAS SALIM: Medical student turned LeT operative. Resident of Sargodha, Pakistan. Was in the back seat and fired a pistol.

JAVED SHEIKH ALIAS PRANESH PILLAI, 32: Electrician-turned-LeT member. Resident of Pune. Was in driver`s seat and fired an AK-56. Long criminal record.

P R E V I O U S I N C I D E N T S

OCTOBER 2002: Samir Khan Pathan, who was plotting to kill Modi and other leaders, was shot when he tried to snatch the pistol of an official. All 13 accused in conspiracy LeT off after his death.

JANUARY 2003: Police killed LeT operative Sadiq Mehtar, a gangster from Bhavnagar, who was accused of plotting to kill Modi, Togadia and Advani. He was killed when he tried to flee from police custody.

JUNE 2003: Police shoot Ganesh Khunte and Mahendra Jadhav who had come to kill Gujarat Law Minister Ashok Bhatt and BJP MLA Bharat Barot at the behest of the Dawood Ibrahim gang.


As the air cleared, police investigations revealed Ishrat was everything her family and neighbours believed. But she was also connected with LeT operatives. Typically, fundamentalist groups target young, educated non-stereotypes for indoctrination. Intelligence agents in Kashmir and Delhi have been regularly intercepting messages of LeT and Jaish-e-Mohammad modules aimed at Modi and VHP factotum Pravin Togadia.

A message was intercepted in May in which LeT`s Pakistan-based chief of Indian operations (barring Kashmir), Muzzamil alias Tariq, spoke to Javed. When Muzzamil asked him, ``Lalaji kahan hain (Where is Advani)?`` Javed replied, ``Woh apne ghar pe hain (He is at home).`` Then Muzzamil said, ``Mubarak ka ab kuch karo (Do something about Modi).`` Javed replied, ``Khad ka intezam karo (Arrange for weapons and ammunition).`` The names of the two Pakistani terrorists Zeeshan Johar and Amjad Ali also figured. Terrorists from Kashmir and the distraught in Gujarat seem to have formed an unusual coalition.

ISHRAT`S DIARY
She had received Rs 4.8 lakh from unidentified sources.
Visited Ahmedabad and Surat thrice in two months.

With Javed and stayed in hotels under false names.

Paid Rs 1,09,000 to Pakistani fidayeen Salim alias Rana.
As unusual as the pairing of Javed and Ishrat. Contrary to rumours, police reveal that there was no love angle. Like Manisha Koirala in Mani Ratnam`s Dil Se, Ishrat had no romantic links with Javed but an allegiance to a cause. Says Amar Jadhav, DCP, crime branch, Thane, ``Prima facie evidence suggests that Ishrat wasn`t innocent. Her role and involvement are matters of investigation and deep concern.``

Police investigations reveal that Javed offered to get Ishrat a decent job in a good company and convinced her mother to send her for interviews to other cities, including Hyderabad and Ahmedabad. Ishrat also acquired a cell phone and fashionable clothes.

In fact, Javed and Ishrat made their first recce of Ahmedabad on March 13. Police are now scrutinising the CCTV footage at the Akshardham Temple to ascertain their second visit in May. Apparently, Javed and Ishrat, who had checked into an Ahmedabad hotel on May 15, had also visited the Akshardham Temple before leaving for Lucknow where they met Salim alias Rana on May 17. Rana accompanied them back to Pune where he stayed with Javed. What is not known is when and where the fourth member Janbaaz joined them.

DIARIES OF JAVED AND SALIM
Plot to target Narendra Modi, L.K. Advani, Pravin Togadia, Bal Thackeray, Vinay Katiyar and Uma Bharati.
Details of making explosives and use of incendiary chemicals, besides drawings of five types of ID circuits.

Details of payments made to other LeT operatives.

UNEASY CALM: Javed with wife
Sajda and child
Javed`s own connections and involvement are less of a mystery. Born Pramesh Kumar Pillai and baptised Javed Ghulam Muhammed Shaikh, he grew up in Thamarakkulam village in Alappuzha district of Kerala before he came to Pune in 1988 to train as an electrician and worked for various contractors including Ishrat`s father in 1992. Besides an income Javed also acquired notoriety. He had been booked for rioting , grievous criminal trespass and possession of lethal weapons. Thereafter he worked in Dubai between 1998 and 2002. Armed with three passports Javed had apparently met Muzammil during his visit to Oman and joined the LeT. Javed last visited his father in the blue Indica with his children and returned to Pune on June 5. His father next saw him in photographs splashed in newspapers.

It isn`t clear as yet as to what triggered the public uproar. Perhaps it was the cold brutality of the encounter laid bare in the pictures splashed by TV channels and newspapers. Public perception revolved around an intriguing contradiction which accepted the apparent involvement of Javed and the two Pakistanis but refused to believe that Ishrat could have had anything to do with the trio despite her travels with them. This is not surprising because Ishrat didn`t fit the stereotype. But then neither did Waleed Alsheri, who held a degree in aeronautical science, and Mohammed Atta, who studied at Technical University of Hamburg, two of those involved in the 9/11 terrorist attack. If the WTC attack was the response of warped minds to humiliations perceived and real, the enrolment of an Ishrat into a terrorist module is a symptom of desperation. In a sense the uproar over the killing of Ishrat Jehan symbolises the disquiet in civil society.

#186 dost-mittarji,
In the part that you fully agree with, Ms. Singh makes a point that`s uncontestable by its very nature (I for one asked what was she doing with those characters), repeats the insinuation that they were after Modi and then tries to establish her credibility by arguing that she is holier than the civil rights groups. A through and through political, self-aggrandizing statement.
The essay itself seems targeted at a certain kind of audience and an artificial attempt at balance permeates it. Bearded men and veiled women have lived in india for centuries as indian citizens and for Ms. Singh to claim that profiling of the sort done in a foreign airport should be acceptable to indians (muslims or hindus) betrays bigotry, confusion or both. If this woman is a progressive, india is in big trouble.

ankit#184:
That was a relevant piece from tavleen singh. I fully agree with the following:

``Every newspaper I read painted the dead girl out to be a model of virtue who could not possibly have had anything to do with terrorism or terrorists. Almost nobody asked what she was doing in a car filled with armed men allegedly on a mission to assassinate Narendra Modi. And, speaking of whom may I say that in the campaign to demonise him (of which I totally approve) what puzzles me is the absence of clamour from our hyperactive civil rights groups about the fate of those Muslims in Gujarat who are still unable to return to their villages. Modi’s crime was not just that he allowed violence against people he was supposed to protect but that after the violence was over he did nothing to help the victims return to their homes. There are thousands of Muslims in Gujarati villages who continue to live in terror because the killers remain unpunished. Nobody speaks for them just as nobody speaks for the victims of other riots who continue to fight their lonely battles for justice``

To be fair to the much maligned author of this thread, she did not assume the girl to be innocent.
If tavleen singh has not already been dubbed a saffronite, she soon would be. But IMs should instead pay attention to what she says and do some introspection. She strikes a highly responsive chord among the unbiased hindus or what one might call soft secularists; a lesser known fact is that she is not a hindu herself. And she has made a point that I have repeatedly made on chowk - that unless secularists condemn muslim communalists as strongly as hindu communalists, they play right into the hands of the the likes of Modi and Tagodia. I admire the strict way in which Antony handled the hindu killings at Marad in Kerala. Unfortunately, the secularists criticised him and called him a soft-hindutva supporter, although his timely condemnation and strict action probably prevented the backlash and the growth of support for the bjp that would have happened in the absence of such timely action.

172

have not been able to see Dev. Nevetheless, this article is totally biased.

Look at this:
``
Yet, Dev has scenes of Muslim mobs retaliating, daring to torch Hindu shops (an acceptable version of events — communal violence as a clash between two `equal` enemies). Far worse, Nihalani reinforces the action-reaction justification for the carnage. (The burning of the Sabarmati coach at Godhra and the killing of the kar sevaks is here substituted by a motorcycle bomb which kills devotees at a Ganesh temple.)

``

did muslims not retaliate where they could in gujrat? then why were so many hindus among the victims of the violence? the administration did take sides, but it is nobody`s case that the muslims did retalitate with violence where they were capable of doing it.

and what is this action reaction part? is it not a fact that the things started after godhara. it is a different matter to justify and say that since godhara happened, the riots can be forgiven. that is not acceptable. but it is definitely true that things started with godhara- it is a historical fact and one cannot just wish it away.

and this:
``
While the true facts of Godhra remain a mystery (which we hope our new and esteemed railway minister will soon unravel), Nihalani does not engage with such bothersome detail
``

so the true facts of godhara are a mystery. maybe a raw conspiracy similar to the one in which they were trailing four terrorists for months? even better will be declaring it a rss conspiracy!


and why are you fuming Farzana. Why did you post it if you dont think what it says is okay?

A piece by Tavleen Singh

http://iecolumnists.expressindia.com/full_column.php?content_id=49831

Why we are a soft target for terrorists

On the morning that the American engineer, Paul Johnson, was beheaded by his terrorist captors in Saudi Arabia I happened to be arriving in London. At Heathrow airport, ahead of me in the immigration queue, was a Muslim family of sub-continental origin. The man wore an Islamic beard and looked as if dressed for Friday prayers. Skullcap, short pyjamas and long kurta and the three women accompanying him were so totally veiled that only their eyes showed. The orthodoxy of their attire or the beheading in Saudi Arabia must have been playing on the mind of the British immigration officer because he interrogated this family longer than I have ever seen anyone being interrogated at immigration before.
While the rest of us waited impatiently in a queue that got longer by the minute the Muslim gentleman was questioned and questioned again. His passport was examined first by one official, then another, then some sort of supervisor poured over it frowningly. The veiled ladies, meanwhile, were escorted to a hidden chamber and kept there for what seemed like half-an-hour and it was only at the end of all this that they were allowed to enter Britain. Exhausted though I was from my long flight I watched the proceedings with interest because it made me realise how political correctness in our own fair and wondrous land makes us an even softer terrorist target than we already are.


If a Muslim family had been treated this way at an Indian airport there would have been a case in the Human Rights Commission against the immigration department. Political correctness, particularly in the media, makes us nearly always give terrorists rather than the police the benefit of doubt. A recent example is the case of the Mumbai college girl who was killed in a police shootout with alleged terrorists.

Every newspaper I read painted the dead girl out to be a model of virtue who could not possibly have had anything to do with terrorism or terrorists. Almost nobody asked what she was doing in a car filled with armed men allegedly on a mission to assassinate Narendra Modi. And, speaking of whom may I say that in the campaign to demonise him (of which I totally approve) what puzzles me is the absence of clamour from our hyperactive civil rights groups about the fate of those Muslims in Gujarat who are still unable to return to their villages. Modi’s crime was not just that he allowed violence against people he was supposed to protect but that after the violence was over he did nothing to help the victims return to their homes. There are thousands of Muslims in Gujarati villages who continue to live in terror because the killers remain unpunished. Nobody speaks for them just as nobody speaks for the victims of other riots who continue to fight their lonely battles for justice.

This peculiarly selective approach to human rights discredits the cause just as the absence of firm measures to deal with Islamic terrorists, and the institutions that breed them, ends up discrediting all Muslims. The root cause is political correctness carried to such absurd lengths that we in the media do not even dare point out that young Muslims are being misled onto paths of violence by half-literate, half-witted mullahs whose influence has grown dangerously ever since political Islam began its confrontation with the West. Civil rights groups must share the blame because quick though they are to point out the evils of ‘‘saffronisation’’ they rarely pick up on the tirade against ‘‘infidels’’ that carries on in Muslim religious and educational institutions. It is these institutions that are the breeding grounds of terrorism but not even a BJP government was able to do anything for fear that it would be seen as an attack on Muslims.

It is an issue that will have to be addressed if we are to stop the poison spreading. There is no harm in Islamic schools and religious institutions teaching knowledge of the religion but if that is all a child is taught from its first day of learning to its last it grows up thinking of those who are not Muslims as infidels. From this exclusivity comes the desire to kill unbelievers as enemies of the faith. Whatever Islam’s grouse against the West it cannot be used as an excuse for terrorism in India and yet we have been dealing with Islamic terrorism longer than any Western country.

Kashmir’s ‘‘freedom movement’’ was hijacked by radical Islamists in the early nineties and the first beheading of a Westerner was that of that poor Norwegian tourist in Kashmir in 1995. Nobody even found out what happened to the others who were abducted along with him and then we saw the advent of Omar Sheikh and Azhar Masood who were in India to recruit troops for the cause. So hopeless were our anti-terrorism measures that we kept these two evil men in our jails for several years before graciously exchanging them for the passengers of IC-814 in Kandahar.

Incompetence and an absence of political will are part of the reasons why we have been unable to deal with terrorism but political correctness is almost as much to blame because its pressure forces our political leaders to turn a blind eye. Political correctness to such a degree that we cannot say Islamic terrorism without being accused of communalism. We can, though, say Hindu fundamentalist and Sikh terrorist without anyone protesting. What does that tell you?

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Re. 177
[#172 by FarzanaVersey
`` While the true facts of Godhra remain a mystery `` ]

Read first. I have posted an article by someone else, and it screams out in the first sentence itself. Because you cannot get back at that writer, just spew your venom here. Old tactic. Quit.

This board is slowly becoming the RSS, Sai Baba Apologist and Hindu Extremist hound.

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Farzana,

Ashok Row Kavi`s letter is very poignant. As for the rest, my mind crashed navigating the anfractuous path of your logic obscured by the fog of information.

Simplicity is terribly under-rated.

Satire

#172 by FarzanaVersey

`` While the true facts of Godhra remain a mystery ``


Like, may be, more than 25 women and children set themselves ablaze to malign muslim community ?

Oh!!!! how devious they are. Muslims sure deserve a free pass to commit mass murders because the evil non-muslims just commit suicide inorder to malign muslims.

#171:

I had read a comment about the court case against `Dev`. You are right that the case itself is about communal clashes that could flare up. The full story of the legal battle is available on http://www.rediff.com/movies/2004/jun/19dev.htm...I took my time to respond because I wanted to double check.

The Poetry of Healing Doctor, Who Took Time Off to Write, Uses New Book to Chronicle Struggle With Being Gay and Hispanic
The Miami Herald, Inc.; Thursday, February 20, 1997
Fabiola Santiago; Herald Staff Writer

---

Tucked between poetic sentences about love and healing, between lines that speak of death sentences and life choices, is the story of the little boy Rafael Campo used to be. So intertwined are the pain of growing up a gay man in a macho culture and a Cuban in an Anglo world that his memories of alienation meld into one.
When he returned to suburban New Jersey after spending several years living in Venezuela, some of Campo`s new elementary school classmates beat him up. They called him ``faggot,`` or maybe it was ``spic.``

``I cannot remember which,`` Campo writes in his new book of essays, The Poetry of Healing: A Doctor`s Education in Empathy, Identity and Desire (W.W. Norton, $23), a chronicle of his struggle to reconcile being Hispanic and gay.

``My sense that I was in some way different led me to write,`` Campo said during a recent visit to Miami Beach. ``I began writing at a very young age to try to heal the fractures, the differences. The act of writing represented an opportunity for healing. Not only was I different ethnically from my peers, but I began to understand I was different in terms of my sexual orientation as well.``

Born of immigrants

Campo, 32, was born in New Jersey of immigrant parents who met in college. His mother is Italian. His Cuban father came to the United States after the Cuban Revolution. One of his fondest childhood memories is the voice of his father reading him poems in melodious Spanish. Raised in a bilingual household, Campo spent part of his childhood in Venezuela and part in New Jersey, where his impeccable grades in public schools won him scholarships to Amherst College and Harvard Medical School.

``I thought medicine could provide me a camouflage, or shield me from those in the majority who could never understand my being different,`` said Campo, who now teaches and practices medicine at Harvard Medical School and Beth Israel Hospital of Boston, where he is an internist.

In his book, he writes, ``As a child of immigrants, I imagined that my white coat might make up for, possibly even purify, my nonwhite skin; learning the medical jargon might be the ultimate refutation of any questions about what my first language had been.``

Tried to deny differences

Throughout young adulthood, Campo tried to deny to himself and hide his sexuality and heritage from others. His gnawing need to write made him an even greater target of ridicule, even within his family, who thought writing was ``queer and sissy.``

Medical school, he felt, ``could contain me and straighten me out.`` On campus, he and his friend Jorge Arroyo, who later became his lifelong companion, shut out their sexual feelings for each other by chasing girls like other college men.

``I thought I could cure myself of my own emerging identities; perhaps drinking too much guava nectar and listening too intently to merengues had made me too obviously Cuban, or masturbating too much had made me gay,`` he writes.

Meeting Arroyo, who is Puerto Rican, at predominantly Anglo Amherst brought him closer to his identity as a Hispanic American, Campo said. Their developing friendship and later love -- ``confirming what we had known for almost two years`` -- gave Campo the courage to accept who he was. They`ve been together now for 11 years.

Medicine to literature

And medical school -- a training process he found ``so demanding and dehumanizing, with such disrespect for the suffering people`` -- gave him the motivation he needed to take a risk and do something many considered outrageous. In his third year of medical school, Campo took a detour to go to graduate school and study literature.

In the process, he wrote two books of poetry, The Other Man Was Me, published by Houston`s Arte Publico Press in 1994 and the winner of the National Poetry Series Prize, and What the Body Told. His essays also found readers not in scientific publications, but in prestigious, popular magazines such as The New York Times Magazine and the Boston Review.

In writing The Poetry of Healing, Campo has broken with at least one taboo in the Hispanic community -- the code of silence when it comes to gay lifestyles.

``I don`t think Latin culture is more homophobic than the Anglo culture,`` said Eduardo Aparicio, who publishes Perra, a magazine for South Florida`s Hispanic gay community. ``It`s just that there is a different code of behavior: You don`t flaunt it.

``In the Anglo culture, you verbalize all these things, you talk publicly about sexuality, you demand your rights through laws, you give testimonials on TV,`` Aparicio said. ``But in Latin families, what occurs is an acceptance without talking about the issue. That, however, doesn`t mean there is a rejection. On the contrary, there is almost a sheltering, a need to protect from others. That`s why your mother will tell you, `It`s OK, but don`t tell your cousin or your uncle.` ``

Breaking the silence

Telling his parents he was gay was difficult, but the distance that the silence had put between them was more painful, Campo said.

``Being able to give voice to some of this has allowed me to have a dialogue with them, and they have accepted me,`` Campo said. ``Healing is to love when love seems not possible. They have been able to love me despite this issue, which is still very difficult for them in many respects. My partner, however, has not been so fortunate. His father has practically disowned him.``

Campo said his willingness to reveal himself also has enriched his practice of medicine. His patients, many of whom are Hispanic and are living with HIV, often ask, ``Are you married? Do you have children?``

``I`m very open with them,`` he said. ``I haven`t had a single patient react with anything but acceptance. It`s part of the therapeutic relationship. There is so much power in the ability to talk about issues, to share in suffering. They can understand the pain I felt in being rejected in the same way I try to understand their pain and suffering in living with their illness. It`s amazing how that provides the opportunity for a deepening of the relationship. I think I`m very lucky that way.``

Campo is developing a course on literature and medicine, ``a way to share some of the writing I found so useful.`` He plans to keep writing about how culture and identity affect the healing process.

What he learns every day is so important it must be published, Campo said, despite his fears of others in his profession who may not be so tolerant of differences. After all, he said, he has already conquered his greatest demon.

``Now, I realize,`` Campo said, ``that for a long time, what I had feared most was my own humanity.``

MARICE COHN BAND / Herald Staff TIME TO HEAL: Rafael Campos, a doctor in Massachusetts, reads from The Poetry of Healing, which he wrote in his struggle to identify himself as gay and Hispanic.

CAPTION: photo: Rafael Campos (a)

Jang,

Perhaps one day you`ll write something as humane and intelligent....

sridhar

I respect your faith in Baba, but I think in today`s world you should not shy away from questioning. Others may not look at him in the same manner that you are doing and they have the right to differ, although I agree that it should be in a manner that tends to accomodate you emotions.

More important that this, I think people who are Baba`s disciples should come forward and take the initiative in answering the questions that are asked. Otherwise you will run the risk of being of the same quality who invoke kuran to justify all kinds of heinous things going around. I am sure you dont want to fall into the category of apologists that we see here in hordes.

Not relevant to the topic, but since I mentioned it in one of my posts...

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/752851.cms

Patronising Secularism: Watching Dev Through Muslim Eyes
FARAH NAQVI

[ FRIDAY, JUNE 25, 2004 12:00:00 AM ]

Hamlavar ban kar aaye the, badshah ban kar raaj kiya ab gaddar ban kar aish karna chahte hain (they came here as invaders, ruled like kings, and now want to have a good time as traitors), declares Om Puri, `the bad cop` in Dev about Muslims. As my (Muslim) friend and I cringe in the darkness of the cinema hall in Ahmedabad, the titter of laughter which greets this grotesque description hits us. It`s the way people laugh at an inside joke. `We` are on the outside. Nothing has changed in Gujarat.


The lines are sharply drawn. And so, we watch the rest of the film, feeling very much like two `Muslims`, surrounded by a sea of tittering `Hindus` whose first instinct — sympathise with the paranoid Muslim-hater Om Puri — is only gradually won over by the secular moral narrative of the Hindu hero Dev (played by Amitabh Bachchan). But even this is a sad, compromised victory. For what Dev peddles is `soft` secularism, the preferred parivar version of Gujarat 2002.

Dev is about Gujarat. Make no mistake about it. Ignore Govind Nihalani`s protests that his film is `really` about Mumbai, Meerut, Bhiwadi and every other riot in the country. (That the location of the film is Mumbai rather than Gujarat is a matter of irrelevant detail.)

The `meaning` of a film is determined by its context, by how its audiences choose to `read` it. Certainly in Gujarat, perhaps elsewhere too, Dev is being `read` as the film version of the events of February-March 2002. And to those events Nihalani has done a grave injustice. For those events were not a riot, by any stretch of the imagination. They were a one-sided massacre. And Muslims were a cowering herd, not a violent mob. Yet, Dev has scenes of Muslim mobs retaliating, daring to torch Hindu shops (an acceptable version of events — communal violence as a clash between two `equal` enemies). Far worse, Nihalani reinforces the action-reaction justification for the carnage. (The burning of the Sabarmati coach at Godhra and the killing of the kar sevaks is here substituted by a motorcycle bomb which kills devotees at a Ganesh temple.)

While the true facts of Godhra remain a mystery (which we hope our new and esteemed railway minister will soon unravel), Nihalani does not engage with such bothersome detail. In his version, an evil Muslim don is responsible for the bomb blast which begins the cycle of revenge-massacre of Muslims. It`s all justified. The final approval comes from the mouth of Dev himself, the moral exemplar, the police officer with a conscience who embodies the secular spirit of `Indian (Hindu) nation`. When Farhan, an angry young Muslim played by Fardeen Khan, tells Dev to stop offering sympathy when the latter`s hands are tainted with the blood of Muslims, a furious Dev reminds his misguided Muslim friend of the Ganesh temple bomb blast, par is saare fasad ki jad kya thi ? (What started it all?) Tab kiske haath khoon se range the?`` (Whose hands were tainted with blood then?) he asks.

The audience hums in approval. Farhan is silenced. Godhra as the cause for Gujarat 2002 (the fasad ki jad ) is upheld. Dev invokes the `liberal` sentiment: ``It was truly terrible to kill so many Muslims, but really that burning at Godhra was so grizzly and somehow `they` always seem to start it all...`` Not only are Muslims blamed for the carnage, they are responsible for catalysing pretty much anything bad which happens in the film. Even when Muslims refuse to lodge FIRs despite being raped and pillaged, the fault lies with one of them — the Muslim don-leader has instructed them not to. (Anyone who has stood in Gujarat`s police stations and watched a hostile police blatantly refuse to lodge any complaints from Muslim survivors will fume at Nihalani`s storyline).

At another level, Dev is a narrative about an Indian nation whose salvation lies in soft, patronising secularism. The upright police officer mouths platitudes about the samvidhan or Constitution. He will not violate the samvidhan at the behest of the wicked CM, he declares time and again, with portraits of Gandhi-Nehru prominent in the backdrop. It would be fine if things stopped here. But his secularism is made greater, its generosity even more generous, because he has ample reason not to worry too much about the samvidhan . Dev lost his young son to a terrorist`s bullets. (The religious affiliation of the terrorist is never specified. Nihalani leaves it to our imagination.) In this, Dev is India, a nation wounded by Muslim terrorists. Yet, Dev is magnanimous enough to embrace all religions in his secular person. Secularism, the narrative seems to suggest, is not a matter of right but of patronage by a large-hearted and forgiving nation-state. Indeed, so great and inclusive is this secularism, that Dev even begins to see Farhan as his dead son, wooing him away from the influence of Muslim don Latif.

Finally, Farhan sees the truth. Only in accepting the moral leadership of Dev, the high secular Hindu, can the Muslim community get justice and salvation. Farhan (read as legitimate Muslim anger) is neutralised. Long live secularism.

Dev is insidious. It takes one of the most brutal communal carnages in modern India, and seeks to resolve its dilemmas by resorting to stereotyped image-making about Muslims, distorting the events of Gujarat, and peddling a watered-down, patronising version of the secular principle. At best, it`s another offensive film but one whose secularism will appeal to far too many people.

is a journalist expected to, at the very least, retract his/her claim when evidence is provided to the contrary?

i am referring to #113 and #144.

#168. . .anytime to accomodate your ignorant, nonsensical, toxic, long hot-winded responses.

#161 by Saminasha

that was beautiful. Did not understand it but beuty is about experiencing and not necessarily about understanding. Now I shall go see ``Paris is Burning`` again. Thanks Samina.

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#151

could i have expected anything different from u people?

brilliant response, sir. absolutely. please don`t even bother explaining what that means, because your passions on chowk are quite evident. it doesn`t even merit a defense, except to comment that to lump myself and urstruly in the same category, nay, even in the same nationality would be an insult to urstruly. for goodness` sakes man, there are people here who think you speak intelligently. please don`t prove them wrong.

So what if people are gay. I am gay and have lived in Pakistan as one. While I`ll probably never go back - boy did I have a great time there. Actually us gays are probably the most secular and tolerant folks back there - maybe you need more of us.

Yeah, and dont anyone say bad-stuff about Michael. Just Beat it ok, he is a Lover! He built the never-never land and all those laundas just want his money and the DA of Malibu is a racist, ( this i dont get since Michael is a born-again white). And the AP cops will not be able to accept-pursue an FIR for the same reason Mumbai Cops cannot sell confisticated Bhai property in Byculla.

Incidently Ferzana, there are also a lot of new Muslim Peers/Babas advertising on the Satellite Channels in the US. Are they also big bussiness in India or Gulf or something?

Whats wrong with Gay Godmen? Where do I sign up? Boy you guys are running scared. Tell me is it our fangs or our multiple heads that scare you? Or just the thought of us getting a head? We live, we breath and we die just the same as you. Our lives are not spent in thinking just about sex all the time. We work, have jobs and want to succeed as as much as the girl in the next cubicle. Most of us have very strong views on child abuse - do you think they are all done by gay men and Catholic priests? There is in my mind nothing more beautiful in the world than a child`s laughter.
So tell me what scares you most about us? That your husbands and brothers will abandon you for a brother in arm? Famlies will collapse?
The world will go on. Hetrosexual people will meet, marry, divorce and have kids (not necessarily in that order) and in the midst of this if some sex people meet and truely love each other what makes you think that your world will collapse? If I want to adopt some orphaned child and provide him/her with a future what makes you think only pedophila is on cards? Dad and Dad can love their kids as much as Mums and Dad or Mums and Stepdads or Dad and his new Partner.
Sorry for the outburst - feel much better now - don`t evne remembered what triggered it.

Ref my post 160 below, the first sentence in the third para should read, ``It might be of interest that the person questioning me has made several allegations against me...``

Jang and other people who are afraid to to think outside their prejudices-ignore the following poem and continue to live in your fantasy worlds in which you think you will be welcomed into God`s heaven.

All humane and fearless intellectuals, I was reminded of Mark Doty`s poem:



Adonis Theater

It must have seemed the apex of dreams,
The movie palace on Eighth Avenue
With its tiered chrome ticket-booth,
Tibetan, the phantom blonde head

Of the cashier floating
In its moon window. They’d undone each other
All over the neighborhood, raising
These blunt pastiches of anywhere

We couldn’t go: a pagoda, a future,
A Nepal. The avenue fed into the entry
With its glass case of radiant stars,
Their eyes dreamy and blown

Just beyond human proportions to prepare us
For how enormous they would become inside,
After the fantastic ballroom of the lobby,
When the uniformed usher would show the way

To seats reserved for us in heaven.
I don’t know when it closed,
Or if it ever shut down entirely,
But sometime-the forties?-

They stopped repainting the frescoes,
And when the plaster fell they merely
Swept it away, and allowed
The gaps in the garlands of fruit

That decked the ceiling above the second balcony.
The screen shrunk to a soiled blank
Where these smaller films began to unreel,
Glorifying not the face but the body

Or rather, bodies, ecstatic
And undifferentiated as one film ends
And the next begins its brief and awkward exposition
Before it reaches the essential

Matter of flesh. No one pays much attention
To the screen. The viewers wander
In the steady generous light washing back
Up the long aisles towards the booth.

Perhaps we’re hurt by becoming
Beautiful in the dark, whether we watch
Douglas Fairbanks escaping from a dreamed,
Suavely oriental city-think of those leaps

From the parapet, how he almost flies
From the grasp of whatever would limit him-
Or the banal athletics of two or more men who were
And probably remain strangers. Perhaps

There’s something cruel in the design
Of the exquisitely plaster box
Built to frame the exotic
And call it desirable. When the show’s over

Its is, whether it’s the last frame
Of Baghdad or the impossibly extended
Come shot. And the solitary viewers,
The voyeurs and the married men go home,

Released from the swinging chrome doors
With their splendid reliefs
Of the implements of artistry,
Released into the streets as though washed

In something, marked with some temporary tattoo
That will wear away on the train ride home,
Before anyone has time to punish them for it.
Something passing, even through the blood,

Momentarily, has broken into flower
In the palace of limitless desire-
How could one ever be done with a god?
All its illusion conspires,

As it always has, to show us one another
In this light, whether we look to
Or away from the screen.

--Mark Doty
From Turtle, Swan, & Bethlehem in Broad Daylight

As expected the issue has become one godman...blind belief garbed as admiration indeed. And now only because people already know there is a lot of material available against the Baba, I should not go along with it. What an argument! Just as those who have been to Puttarpathi Ashram can return and talk about the great work being done there, others who have had other kinds of experiences have expressed their thoughts. Some will agree with one, some with the other.

This is what I had written:``Why has there been no follow-up regarding the recent allegations against the famous baba who had sexually assaulted a boy?``

It might be of interest that the person questioning me has made several allegations (found two precious ones #32, 34 on the `Excavating India` board). Will anyone care to back these with proof? I will not even comment on the level of such discourse.

And for general information, I do not seek to get posts censored.

Re. Satya Sai Baba, those interested can run a search engine and you will find various aspects, positive and negative...you can also buy Sai incense sticks.

The following url interested me because it had reports from various papers and since it is from a decade-old, it shows that the matter is not new.
http://home.no.net/anir/Sai/enigma/PressEvidence.htm

There is also an online petition: http://www.petitiononline.com/saibaba/petition.html

I have no intention of commenting further on this godman on this board.

resridhar

welcome back my friend. It made me shudder to think what would chowk be like without hindu religious nuts and bigots, we might then end up with just hamidm`s endless recycling of his tripe. (shuddering). I think some heeng is always necessary to spice up life.

#155 by soundmeister

[people trust their lives to this god-man, not to mention their children`s. why should his behaviour be above question? if there really **have** been allegations of abuse aganinst him, the least we can do (and I don`t mean the authorities, half of whom are probably blind devotees themselves) is ask a few pointed questions. those who believe will continue to do so, a few sceptics won`t affect their faith.]

Fair enough, there have been numerous allegations against Sathya Sai Baba, and Farzana`s question is very valid, but may I add that not one, not one of these allegations has been proved. Again, isn`t the onus of proving him guilty on those who have made the allegations in the 1st place? I`m not a devotee of the Baba, though I live close enough (some 300 miles away) to be able to visit him whenever I wish, and I`ve passed his town on at least half-a-dozen occasions without caring to stop by. But c`mon, is it fair to hurl allegations at someone just because someone else has?

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Farzana

I commend your boldness in taking up a thorny issue which somehow makes people insecure. It is always difficult to see the patterns one assumes as normal shaken up by alternative lifestyles and I am no different in that sense of overwhelming shock and fear. O my goodness, will heterosexual marriages be a thing of the past? will the safe sturdiness of family a man a woman and the kids disappear into singletons indulging in endless rounds of casual sex, gender regardless?? Are there no rules left in life to give order and predictability? No morals, no limits, no perfect family? Will we all be gay in a 100 years??

if it is of any use, people who have researched the gay issue say a few things that should reassure us:
1. Gaydom isnt catching; it is a tendency/a talent like hand eye coordination or depth perception.
2. The mind and the body have very subtle and unique connections. People feel sexual attraction both emotionally and physically. So people cant fall in love with one gender and have sex with another.
3. Gay people`s relationships survive against all odds in many many cases.
4. They suffer the same agonies of love that the rest of us do.

The interesting thing is that gay researchers are the ones who tend to put out research on gay lifestyles marriages and parenting. So we really dont have a totally objective yardstick assuming that our often dysfunctional heterosexuals are the yardstick.

I have little idea why people are so upset with you. wish you the best. The only thing that bothered me slightly were a few sweeping generalizations. I am guessing you have your observations to back you up.

hey sridhar, for someone who swore off this board you sure stop by a lot!

i think farzie`s question is very fair. people trust their lives to this god-man, not to mention their children`s. why should his behaviour be above question? if there really **have** been allegations of abuse aganinst him, the least we can do (and I don`t mean the authorities, half of whom are probably blind devotees themselves) is ask a few pointed questions. those who believe will continue to do so, a few sceptics won`t affect their faith.

what I find disturbing is your apparent assumption that nobody should dare question the man just because he has done some good in his life (which is undeniable fact).

re: #151
``There is a superspeaciality hospital that has 3 free by-pass surgeries.``
The above should read: ``There is a superspeciality hospital that performs about 3 bypass surgeries a day free of cost``
Sridhar

re: #129 by nooralain
Not accused!
Reread the following sentence she wrote:

``Why has there been no follow-up regarding the recent allegations against the famous baba who had sexually assaulted a boy? Because he was sanctified by religion?``
Farzanabibi has already decided that the allegations are true but questioning why nobody is protesting. I think, unless this woman has made some grammatical error in framing a sentence (which is taught in the fifth grade level in school), i think i am right in saying what is said. Let her come and clarify if she meant differently.
Where is she hiding anyway?
Sridhar

re: Urstruly, Noorlain
Could i have expected anything different from u people?
re: Ralph`s post
You may not believe and that is O.K. BTW, i am not a sai baba follower. Just an admirer. I visited that place (Puttaparthy) some years ago and was impressed by the way that saint has turned it around. There is free education till the college level. There is a superspeaciality hospital that has 3 free by-pass surgeries. Doctors from the world over give free time to serve there. It is just amazing.
But, as i said, you or anyone else do not have to believe in it. One however must show some respect to a person who has 100 million followers all over the world. Farzana bibi just throws words to the winds. A journalist has to be careful what he/she writes. Is that asking for too much?
Sridhar

re:#135 by AlephNull
Thanks for the post.
I joined Chowk in the beginning of 2001 and it has been 3 years and more than 2000 posts already. I have seen some good people leave. People like Shashi, Prem etc. It was fun and one could argue with some passion.
Chowk has not evolved the way i thought it would. Hardliners would not ever give in even when confronted with the truth. I think it is asking for too much but i also get very worked up when plain stupid articles get published and people waste time debating on it.
I saw a program on TV on my visit to India sometime ago and it was about the increasing episodes of kissing in public places in India (i have never seen one!) and i thought: was this a relevant topic? Is this the burning issue?
In the same vein: is lesbianism a relevant topic (BTW, i tried to see the movie Girlfriend and could not finish it. it just sucks)?
Anyway, i will take sometime from Chowk and see how it works. If i am addicted (i hope not!), i will come back and hope people won`t take me to task for it. Otherwise, it is adieus and goodbye to all (yes, that includes Urstruly, Romair and the like; i had fun whipping you guys and you know it!).
Sridhar
PS: Thanks again for your kind words

re: Gujjubania`s post to me
I like u but did not like the way u went about defaming a whole community. Muslims are a part of India and India is enriched by their presence. Where would we be without Md Rafi, Naushad, Bade Ghulam Ali Khan, Duleep Kumar etc. Can we say we do not want muslims but want the Taj Mahal? It is just a POV and may be i am an just old fashioned fool. My secularim of course comes from a deep understanding of hinduism and its scriptures. Nowhere have i read about hatred against other religions.
That apart, i hope u realize none of what i said to u or others is to be taken personally. Still. i apologise to u and othere if i have caused any hurt.
Sridhar
P.S: Gujjubania, if u are really in your teens, then it is i who envy u. You seem precoccious for your age. I hope u steer your brainpower in the right direction and not be a victim of hate.

nikki7777

your responses personally are incredibly pathetic and not at all amusing. and whoever you are, you don`t deserve any more responses. everyone of course is free to offer their opinions here, but if you are using what you call intelligence to offer your opinions on anyone and everyone at this site, you`d better think again brotherman. give us facts, don`t give us your messed up excuses for `writing`.

and if you call this tripe, it`s still steps above what comes from the sewer (and below). . .

just for the record, and your information. . .this is not an anti- anything site. it`s the people who make this anti-this or anti-that. you make this an anti-pakistani, anti-punjabi, anti-kashmiri, anti-bhagwaan jaane place. and your pathetic imagination chooses to consider this an anti-indian site. if this is where you want to let off your droppings, be my guest. . .some of us prefer to keep far away from your stink. . .and i hope farzana does just that. you just ain`t worth it baybeh.

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An article by Nivedita Menon-
indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=39566

concerned
``you can replace the words `sai baba` in the above narration with any religious figure and the outcome is likely to be the same, or in some cases, worse``

yeah stuka, try saying bad stuff about a sikh guru for a trial, and you wont be surprised ;-)

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just for confirmation of my #113.

http://www.rediff.com/movies/2004/jun/16dev.htm

The first protest against Govind Nihalani`s film Dev has risen from Gujarat...

Sandeep Chandrasinh Revre, a resident of Rajkot, has filed a case in a Rajkot court against Nihalani for making a film that threatens to ignite communal clashes between two communities...

According to Revre and his counsel Kamlesh Shah, there are many dialogues and scenes in Dev which are sure to hurt the feelings of Hindus as well as Muslims. Some of these dialogues and scenes are so sensitive that they may do great harm to their faith and respect for their respective religions, the petitioners claim.

In response to Revre`s petition, Civil Judge D J Shah has issued a notice to Nihalani, asking him to be present in the Rajkot court on Friday, June 18.

KS#116: I missed this post earlier. I know there were men in our region who looked very wimpy and some times acted very feminine..they were ridiculed by most other ``real`` en insinuating things and spreading rumours about them.....not many may be 2 or 3 in the whole village of 5000 people...I don`t remember anything about chichi paalish thingie.

KS#116: I missed this post earlier. I know there were men in our region who looked very wimpy and some times acted very feminine..they were ridiculed by most other ``real`` en insinuating things and spreading rumours about them.....not many may be 2 or 3 in the whole village of 5000 people...I don`t remember anything about chichi paalish thingie.

stuka,

[...I have noticed generally that followers of Sai Baba are pretty sensitive. This gora housing agent in Boston once refused to show me homes because he found out I was Indian and asked me my opinion on the guy and I said he was a fraud...]

you can replace the words `sai baba` in the above narration with any religious figure and the outcome is likely to be the same, or in some cases, worse.

indeed chowk needs intelligent folk to label others as scum, call women moronic and low-class, make personal pointed comments about their sexual lives, refer to certain people at chowk as islamic fascists, question people`s patriotism, label people as pond scum and worse, go on the rampage on our mothers and sisters and on many many many an occasion have not a grip, or a clue.

i love chowk and i say yeeeeaaaaaah boooooy! bring on the noise! bring it on!!!!

rsridhar

I don`t share your views on S Baba, but Chowk needs you far more than it needs Farzana. Look forward to reading many more of your posts.

I have noticed generally that followers of Sai Baba are pretty sensitive. This gora housing agent in Boston once refused to show me homes because he found out I was Indian and asked me my opinion on the guy and I said he was a fraud.

More than whiny homosexual adults or whiny straight adults who are clogging the airways, it is vulnerable children who desperately need to be protected from sexually-saturated media, society and adult agendas, and their right to a normal childhood of normal length needs to be protected

i agree!

I have an insurmountable aversion to crass displays of homosexuality( and an inbuilt aversion to crass displays of other kinds too).

But prima facie, I will never oppose the right of gays to be married legally. For a small piece of paper from what is their own government as well, it is not worth making a large number of people unhappy.

However the media propagation of homosexuality and normal sexuality among children to `catch them as early as possible` is another matter altogether.

More than whiny homosexual adults or whiny straight adults who are clogging the airways, it is vulnerable children who desperately need to be protected from sexually-saturated media, society and adult agendas, and their right to a normal childhood of normal length needs to be protected.

Hence my message to the self-absorbed adults on this thread is to collectively go take a running jump :).

rsridhar #128

I think you are taking Chowk way too seriously. The Chowk staff are no more infallible than any other group of human beings; they have some fairly obvious biases. It’s in the nature of things that you will disagree violently with their take on some matters just as you will disagree violently with some of mine. To leave in a huff because one of your posts was censored is a lamentable overreaction IMO. My outlook is very different from yours but I for one will miss you. In any case, I believe it’s quite possible to make a point if you have one, to land a solid punch, to skewer your adversaries while staying well within the ambit of what Chowk considers acceptable. All it takes is some care with language. Just my two cents …

rsrhidhar

calm down. here is what the us consular bulletin says (unconfirmed allegations)

``U.S. citizens should be aware that there have been reports of inappropriate sexual behavior by a prominent local religious leader at an ashram or religious retreat located in Andhra Pradesh. Most of the reports indicate that the subjects of these approaches have been young male devotees, including a number of U.S. citizens. Although these reports are unconfirmed, U.S. citizens should be aware of this information and contact the U.S. Consulate General in Chennai for further information. ``

http://travel.state.gov/india.html

so take it up with them if you are for real and get it removed.
That way you will not be ``censured``.

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Urstruly:

``We must join forces with those voices who oppose this scourge on humanity. We must organize these forces, become majority, and help enact and enforce laws that curb this behavior. We must tell this to all, how this behavior attacks like a cancer on the basic unit of the society i.e. family and thru its malignancy destroys the institution. ``

This would be valid for India as well as US.

Urstruly:

Post 110 is 100% correct. I cannot disagree with you at all. Thank you for expressing what I feel but would never have managed to do so.

I don`t agree with the execution bit of the Sharia though understandably.

rsridhar

what goes around, comes around. Have a good life. bye bye

#127 & #128

We encourage all to participate in discussions. All we ask you to be is civil. If your post includes words or masked references that are offensive, crude, repugnant, or obscene, your post will be duly deleted. We thank you for your participation.

the ``moronic`` farzana bibi, the ``low-class`` farzana bibi as you keep referring to and have referred to again and again and again and again ad nauseam (or should one say ad ignoreum) first of all, has not in her post accused the baba. she has referred to the allegations made against the baba, and posed a question. where does she say that this is a fact? how does this translate into everything that you have said about her? does she herself violate chowk guidelines by posing a question that is already out there?

you and those of your ilk have never bothered to back up your arguments with anything but maligning farzana`s character, from making insinuations about anything that goes in her personal life. and i`ve observed this, as an outsider for quite sometime now. your devotion to the baba is admirable, it truly is. but if a baba would as part of his teaching encourage you to be as insulting as you have been to ms. versey for the duration that she`s been here, that raises a question or two or more.

you complain about your post being edited. shall i direct you to the ad nauseam posts that have not been edited that insult a `religious` figure and that figure`s countless followers? how about the posts that refer to certain human beings as pond scum, and worthless human beings? the ones directed against women, of which yours would be innumerable given your tendency to insult farzana versey. and your passion to insult `pakis`?

undoubtedly there would be some who miss you here. but the air in chowk would be just a little less stagnant.

thumbs up! and all the best!

re: my last post
Since Chowk admin has thought it fit to edit out my last post completely, i feel compelled to stop interacting here unless Chowk staff can offer me an explanation.
My last post was a befitting reply to this woman`s insinuation of a person who is revered as a saint by more than 100 million people worldwide. These include people from different nationalites, cultures and professions. By insinuating a saint of wrongdoing, without any proof and just based on some press stories (we know what those stories are about since they are written by people of same calibre as the writer of this piece of SH!T) or some websites from disillusioned elements, the author of this artilce has only shown her low class. She belongs to a low class because her thinking is low. Her insinuations are not based on concrete facts. Besides, this article is not about the saint in question. Hence, reference to him was completely unwarranted.
My reply to this ``classless piece`` was a personal one. It did not involve a religion. I did not insult 100 million people as this moronic woman did.
If i do not get a reply or an apology, i will be saying goodbye to this site for ever. It will be painful but i also feel ashamed to share the same podium with people like Farzana bibi who have no class and are at best third rate journalists.
Sridhar

re: my last post and the one that was censured

Lest i be misunderstood, i was replying to the following from farzanabibi`s post # 103

``Why has there been no follow-up regarding the recent allegations against the famous baba who had sexually assaulted a boy? Because he was sanctified by religion?``
The reference to Sathya Sai Baba is obvious. The sentence clearly insinuates a great saint of wrongdoing, without any proof. His followers include people like ABV and Abdul Kalam, the president of India. Perhaps this mornoic piece of SH!T who wrote the above lines thinks she has better knowledge than the above 2 gentlemen. If she has any proof, let us see it.

Either the admin repost my reply to this ``piece of SH!T`` who calls herself a writer, or give me a good explanation. Otherwise, as i said, it is adieus to everybody here.
Sridhar

Male homosexuality is perverse. It`s bad enough having to see oneself in the mirror as a man: hair sprouting from places you didn`t know could support life, stupid globes hanging from little shapeless bags, weirdly bent banana shaped protuberances that shrivel up like used peanut shells

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eeeeeeyuccccchhhhh

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now imagine the same thing, only TWO sets of each, and engaged in fierce combat

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I could puke!

Lesbianism on the other hand is sublime.... it`s everything we love about the female form times two! And no skin peeling back and spurting and stuff. More power lesbians! Gay men can go screw themselves

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errr, no that didn`t come out right

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Thank you gujjubania, you are too kind. I know some other hindus who whine even now as to why we introduced the concept of clothing to them. I guess you are one of the enlightened ones.

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#120 by soysauce

i think 99% probably includes a quick-furtive, however often, fondling (beyond cheek-pinching or hair-messing) of baba-baby by (usually) a male family aquaintance/servant/neighbor, setting a child in lap/knee, fake fights etc.

victims can tell the difference between an act of molestation and otherwise good-intent contact and dont need a shrink or case worker, and learn to avoid and protest such advances.

this is not the same as ``eve-teasing`` type thing in a crowded bus. consider that western societies are far more careful about casual contact between adults and children unlike in india.

stuka:
I did not say that homosexuality was rampant in the RSS, just that such insinuations did get made. I believe that sarsanghchalak is not the only one who is celibate; so are many, if not all pracharaks. And doesn`t sarsanghchalak come from pracharaks? Many of the current BJP leaders, from Vajpayee to Modi, were pracharaks at one time. One of the reasons for their preferred celibacy, I believe, is that pracharaks are generally posted outside their own region and therefore away from a potential family.

kaurasach:
Sorry, never lived in a panjabi village; so can`t help you with that one.

i know at least 28 shakha pramukh/prcharak types married with kids (dont know if they are happily married). i do know however that RSS is a boys only organization, and they tie ``bhagwa`` rakhee on each-other on rakhee day. so kind of like scouts, if boys only congregate, they must be gay. interesting..what about the army, gents compartments of local trains, the big namaz for eid at the jumma-masjid?

#107 jawahara
Your 99% figure is startling. Forget about talking to someone in a safe environment. Think back to your childhood. Anything funny happen to you, your siblings & other related children or friends? That should tell you how much to trust these numbers.
Studies on child (sexual) abuse tend to be selectively quoted. Call up a random therapist in this country and ask what he/she has heard about the incidence of sexual abuse. The oft-quoted figure is something like 80%! No one I have spoken to who quotes these high numbers has ever been sexually molested herself! That ought to tell you something.
I do believe that child sexual abuse tends to be overlooked but if you start counting ``eve-teasing`` as sexual abuse (rather than harassment) you`d quickly come up with a large number for urban areas. Moreover, the studies oftentimes have to instruct the children on how to recognize abuse. The line separating instructing them and coaching them is easily crossed tainting the results.

Dost Mittar:

My father was in the RSS. So were other family members. The celibacy rule applies only to the sarsanghchalak. Not the rank and file and not even the pracharaks or various divisions.

#96 Labyrinth1 ``When a man mounts another man, the throne of God shakes.``
Presumably when the throne of God shakes it snows on the world.....

[...Govind Nihalani, who has been dragged to court for his film ‘Dev’ (by a Hindu who claims it is anti-Hindu!)...]

the court case claimed that the film can offend both hindus and muslims and has the potential to ignite communal passions.

jawhara

i agree with you regarding molestation stats. indians deal with extreme sexual frustration (with urban migration, later marriages and all makes it worse). One redeeming feature is that crowded societies with everyone peeking into every thing tends to make molestations kind of fleeting (different from sustained type in woods of Minnesota).

And FV, i dont agree that Hindus are any more against modernity because Shivsena protested against girlfriend. I have explained shivsenas modus-operandi in a previous post. Also, do you think RSS shakhas are gay orgies? Where do you get this information? This can be very interesting.

Stukay: I know some real life homosapien (Chowk would not accept the prefix alone :)- stories from Bhaun, maybe I can run it as series Tales of homosapiens((Chowk would not accept the prefix alone :)- from Bhaun. The only problem is that assess would not be too thrilled about it... :)-

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+++

The horde of people who went on a rampage were doing so in the name of their culture/religion; just as we bunch terrorism of a kind with another religion.

I do not think a comment like Hinduism is against modernity is really out of place.

+++


is anyone surprised that Farzana is ready to trash hinduism and play equal equal stuff with terrorism at the flimisiest of grounds that she can hold? after all, ABVP is worse than SIMI for her. and of course, panun kashmir is a dangerous concept while we must be reasonable in dealing with the kashmiri terrorists.

typical stuff. that is what I call e-jehad.

stuka:
``What are you implying? That Shakha activities consist of homosexuality?``

FV`s insinuations are not new.
When the sanghis came to our street to collect fellow-sanghis to go to their shakhas, I remember some kids raising the follwoing heckles:
sangh ki jeb mein taash hai
sangh launday-baaz hai!

...you should remember that sanghi pracharaks are supposed to be celibate, much like the catholic christian missionaries.

FV

I do not have much to say on the subject of homosexuality since the discussion has already deviated from its main topic of ``homosexuality among modern Hindus`` to a general discussion on homosexuality.

Anyway, it is my assessment that you have two points of view on the subject that you hold, and I disagree with both of them:

1. Either you beleive that homosexuality is a personal business and should be allowed as an acceptable, legal, righteous, and as one of the mainsteam behaviour, or

2. Even if we do not subscribe to a homosexual behaviour we should remain indifferent to it so as to remain politically correct, enlightened, and tolerant.

I am sorry but I cannot accept either of these scenarios. Accepting either one of these means that I have converted from my own system of beleif. In other words, a homosexual has a right to convert me because it is ``enlightening`` but I do not have right to convert him/her because it is ``intolerant``. This is ridiculous and unacceptable.

My direction is very clear. Homosexuality is not a ``personal`` behaviour as it is touted to be, it is a social behaviour. If it is a personal behaviour then why bother with its legality, marriage, and rights etc. All these things indicate that it is a social phenomenon. In other words directly or indirectly it effects me, my family, my neighborhood, and my country. And the way it effects them is un-acceptable to me.

So now that we have recognized the problem we have the solution to deal with the issue. Sharia has prescribed a method to deal with the issue and that is to execute both active and passive partners engaged in the act. Since, it is not a crime that falls under the category of Hadud, the standard for evidence and testimony could be pretty lax in execution of the verdict and punishment. But this of course can only be done in the countries where Sharia is in effect. In other countries where Muslims live as expatriots they should adopt the methods of teaching (talqeen), preaching (tableegh), and awareness (taleem). We must join forces with those voices who oppose this scourge on humanity. We must organize these forces, become majority, and help enact and enforce laws that curb this behavior. We must tell this to all, how this behavior attacks like a cancer on the basic unit of the society i.e. family and thru its malignancy destroys the institution.

Personally, I think the perpetrators of this inhumanity must also be inculded in our talqeen, tableegh, and ta`leem. They must be told that what they are doing is not only self-destructive but also will destroy all others close to them. I don`t think we should, harass them, shame them or shun them but they be told with compassion and compromise. However, in Muslim countries this method cannot be applied. Since they know the word of God and His verdict. They must immediately be reported to authorities and must be executed after due process of law.

``I think an out-and-out gay film on men will not get such a reaction. The RSS will keep quiet, considering its shakha activities…"

What are you implying? That Shakha activities consist of homosexuality? That is why I am against giving an inch to the gay agenda. They will pervert everything they come in contact with. Do you have any solid proof of RSS shakhas being the centre for homosexual activity or is it just innuendo? How many RSS Shakhas have you visited?

Hellbound: ``A`` is the right answer...

What is the connection between Jawahara and Mushy.

a: They quote numbers? ...which are outta whack. Sorry if that did not come out in the original post.

Hi FV *waves*: Interesting post and yes, I totally see what you are saying. Being gay, out and flamboyant in hip, urban areas is definitely in. But those are not usually the people facing the larger problems of being gay.

Just two clarifications of my previous points. I am not going to engage in this degenerating debate any more but I wanted to say this:

My 99% percentage was as I said, from people I know. The percentage outside that group can be 1% for all I know. All I`ve found is you start talking with people in a safe environment and in a safe way and discover that most of them come out with some story of molestation. Not experimentation among kids but being molested by an adult...a servant, a family friend, a distant relative, etc. etc.

So, it may not be 99% in the world outside my own. Read this excerpt, it is still a startling number: ``Around 70.5 per cent of the DU students have disclosed about their incest and childhood sexual abuse (CSA) to their friends, reports a recent survey conducted by a city based NGO Rahi (Recovering And Healing from Incest).`` This is from a June 23 report of a study in New Delhi. *That* is truly shameful for all us Indians, not whether two consenting males or females have sex with each other. Or if they dance lewdly in a parade. Still don`t agree? Read the stats on this page:
http://www.shaktiproductions.net/isa_stats.html.

At least in larger urban areas people are talking about it. In smaller towns and villages, no one is doing studies about this as far as I know.

Second, there is a clear difference between two adults indulging in a consensual, relationship (straight or gay) and an adult abusing a child (again a child of the same gender or not than the adult). Consent and age are important...crucial in any sexual relationsip.

And as far as abuse is concerned, (and yes, these are actual, researched facts, not drawn from my personal sample size) most abusers are heterosexual (or living as) males. There are reams of material substantiating this fact. Look it up.

Bottomline, this is one of those issues like abortion or the legalization of marijuana that people are either on one side or the other. I am comfortable on my side and I guess others are on their side. So, there`s really no point nitpicking on this any more.

FV, post another article we can all sink our teeth into.:)

Urstruly:

Laloo is not considered a genetic anomaly, just a guy who does not know when to stop...and Manji is considered an intellectual anomaly, not a genetic one:)

Btw, what are your views on the subject in general? These days you just don`t say anything to me!!

FV

``Irshad Manji, a Toronto-based writer, whose book on Islam created waves, is a Muslim. Laloo Prasad Yadav, a Hindu, has nine kids. Hope this helps. ``

Isn`t it true that just as Lalu is considered a genetic anamoly among mainstream hindus, Manji is thought to be among Muslims?

A few replies…have read until #75…

#21 by rahul_capri:

[``The sad fallout of this is that young boys, who probably do not know which way they swing, are initiated, as also eunuchs who, of course, do not have a choice.”
I did not get this line.]

There are many young boys who are forced into homosexual relationships. The most vulnerable are those who come to seek employment from villages. During the course of one story I was doing, I went to the Chowpatty beach around midnight (before the clean-up operation) and met the ‘maalishwallas’. They told me about how the sahibs would come there to get a massage and then force them to either go with them (if the men had the means) or ask them to give a hand. This had become such a common practice that even the cops had got into the thick of things… “if you don’t want to be rounded up, then it is my turn next” sort of thing.

Re. eunuchs, they- the ‘natural’ ones do not have a choice because of how they are made. Being sodomised is the only way out for them.
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#39 by dost-mittar:
Dear dostmittarji,

As I have said and is obvious, this is not as review of the film. But its trashiness does not take away from the trashiness of the response to it. Incidentally, Govind Nihalani, who has been dragged to court for his film ‘Dev’ (by a Hindu who claims it is anti-Hindu!) has himself stated that he is not against the legal form of protest applied wrt to his film. If Karan Razdan has got into publicity overdrive with this gimmick, then those indicting the film (including the media) are also helping to publicise it. I have refrained from commenting on such cinema. It is attitudes that interest me. The other day I thought we had tickets for ‘Dev’, but ended up watching ‘Hum Tum’ which is being promoted as clean family entertainment. The ridiculously sexist remarks in this film do not bother anyone it seems because it is cute… or maybe because a big newspaper house is involved.
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#51 by Jawahara:

Hi Jawahara…good to see you back and in full force. Thanks for making this board so alive.

[It`s weird isn`t it, that in a country where men roam arm in arm and are physically so close, there remains this phobia about gay men. It`s only in the murky area of same sex sexuality that I personally think, women are somewhat safer in India than are men. So, while there has been a `Fire,` and now a `Girlfriend,` there has never really been a film about unambiguously gay characters. I shudder to think of the Sena reaction when/if that happens.]

Interesting observation. I think an out-and-out gay film on men will not get such a reaction. The RSS will keep quiet, considering its shakha activities…also, the male construct will see it as a personal aberration, not a religious sin.

[I have to confess that terms like ``the limp wristed kind,`` and ``the gay cult,`` troubled me.]

Again, we are talking about India. And urban India at that. In cities like Mumbai and Delhi, passive gay men revel in being ‘pretty’. Their parties get publicised in the media…one well-known such ‘do’ got major coverage for how the queens were dressed etc. They themselves believe in the cult. They fancy themselves as icons and a small segment has become legitimised precisely for being gay, and little else.

One friend of mind is in the papers only because of his cross-dressing and is invited at the toniest parties to add colour. He told me he was playing along because that kept him in the news. He was like any other Page 3 socialite.

Often, this does result in glamourisation and many young men who are not yet aware of their sexuality find it cool. The ‘hormonal imbalance’ has been slowly replaced by the iconisation of the gays. Why do we suddenly see the ‘best’ designers as gay? Whatever happened to the darzi of old…was he gay? My beef against the movement in India is that the gays are quick to brand you homophobic (heck, I was invited on TV panels as the homophobic voice only because I did not agree with ARK on certain issues, like most gays not addressing the paedophilia and promiscuity problems that beset them as much as heteros).

Some of the other queries you posed have been addressed in the general post.
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#52 by Urstruly:

Irshad Manji, a Toronto-based writer, whose book on Islam created waves, is a Muslim. Laloo Prasad Yadav, a Hindu, has nine kids. Hope this helps.
- - -
#63 by nooralain

[``There is rarely any talk about Christianity vs. modernity. . . .``
perhaps not all so publicly, but this is something that churches have been grappling with for quite a while now.]

The discussion rarely takes on the enormity of a phobia. However, I had written in an earlier article the following, “Scandals about their involvement in adultery, child abuse and homosexuality are constantly reported. In the early days of the church, priests did marry because Christianity did not lay down celibacy as a rule. In fact, even the Pope acknowledges it when he says, ``Jesus didn`t make a law, but proposed an ideal of celibacy for a new priesthood that he was establishing. This ideal is affirmed ever more in the church.`` He even went to the extent of admitting that celibacy did not belong to the essence of priesthood.”

Regards to all…
F

PS: I am having problems with my dial-up and server, so my active participation would depend on these…

It is good to see an interesting and educative discussion taking place here. Thanks for your comments, positive, negative, iffy…

What I set forth in this article is essentially about same-sex coupling in the Indian context; I know that the West has of late become more open to such alliances. This is still not true in the Indian subcontinent. The horde of people who went on a rampage were doing so in the name of their culture/religion; just as we bunch terrorism of a kind with another religion. A few voices may stand up against it, but the implication invariably is that it has to do with one religion. A whole industry and even a political credo have been spawned as retaliation.

Therefore, let me address the two issues as set out in the title:

1.Is Hinduism against modernity?

I do not think a comment like Hinduism is against modernity is really out of place. In the context in which I speak. Ashok Row Kavi’s letter to the RSS chief harks back to history. It does not address the contemporary state of the culture. Why were there no Muslim protest groups, Christian protest groups…and at least of the former we do not have a dearth? If they had come out in the streets, they would have been added to this group.

Why has there been no follow-up regarding the recent allegations against the famous baba who had sexually assaulted a boy? Because he was sanctified by religion? Therefore, was I making a blanket generalisation against one religion? For the purpose of this article and the ‘inspiration’ for it, yes. As I wrote, “But if we wish to take this recent example, we will realise that Hindu culture is completely insensitive to anything close to modernity. At every point in time, modernity ought to include sensitisation towards marginalised groups.”

This is my definition of modernity vis-à-vis the subject at hand. Sensitisation towards women, towards scheduled castes and tribes, towards minorities and towards LGBTs. Modern does not mean being hip and with it. It means awareness and acceptance of such groups, whether we agree with them or not.

While the West may get uptight over some issues on the basis of religion (I have given an example), they cannot make an issue of it on those grounds at the political level. In societies like ours religion makes most social decisions. And the marginalised groups I speak about are a victim of them, from within or without. ARK is falling into the same trap when he uses religion to buffer his position, which is sad. Again, I have said in my piece, “But must one bring religion-centred culture into it at all? If the intention of the gay community is to turn its back on organised religion, which makes it a victim, then why can it not seek a path outside of the ambit of such religions?”

2.Lesbians vs. gays

I had asserted, “The only reason I am glad about the ‘outing’ is because it concerns women. Lesbians have always been the secondary sex among gays. It is really more about a brotherhood; the connotation of sisterhood in this context is invariably seen as the result of some spiritual bonding or a protest against male battering.”

Again, I am talking in the Indian context, although I would not be surprised if this phenomenon existed across the globe. Somebody suggested that in the film the gay woman is a victim of child molestation and therefore her sexual proclivities due to it were not an accurate portrayal. There are research studies and there are research studies…my findings indicate that the ‘born gay’ theory does not hold true across the board. (This resulted in a newspaper battle with ARK and me in the 90s. We have since made up!)

There are lesbians who do not call themselves so in large joint families and among certain communities it is now even looked down upon. But it is tough for women to come out and seek a space for themselves. I do know of several cases where women have gone for women as a reaction against severe battering and/or emotional battering by men. But some choose to do so simply because they are so inclined.

The problem is that gay men talk of rights, about going cruising, but do not take into account the problems of their lesbian sisters. They just do not think they are an issue as such. Probably because they can lead two lives more comfortably, can remain hidden without being noticed much (‘tomboys’ do not produce as much of a smirk as the ‘pansy’). But it remains an area that is riddled with male patriarchal notions. ARK had himself told me in an interview that only a woman would be able to sit and suck a woman’s breasts for two hours!

Now that the Girlfriend controversy is making news – even if there are several other agendas at play – the spokesperson of the gay community is a man.

can we please remember that the sexual molestation of jawahara`s cousins and friends is NOT the topic of this article? and that whatever the percentage is, to ridicule sexual molestation or deny that it is a possibility really stinks.

farzana ji,
was lord allah gay?if somebody asks you that question what will you say?and by the by why don`t moslem females also get a circumcision ?does this mean they are lesser `moslems` as compared to their male counterparts?
plz do not take offence.just a thought which crosses a perverted mind i guess!

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Romair:

I am pleasantly surprised to see that this time ur theory for homosexuality in Pakistan is not based on the [huge] disparity between salaries in civil and military. Neither did you shove down/up phenomenal achievements in IT sector of the Silicon Valley in relation to homosexual tendencies of IT-specialists.
Equally astonishing that the reasons behind junior military officers leaving Pakistan has nothing to do with their sexual inclinations.

What a progress.
Well done.

It is difficult to have a reasonable discussion of homosexuality because of all the rhetoric in our times coloring and disguising the issues. To describe homosexual acts as wrong or sinful invites being labeled homophobic or bigoted or worse. I am one one of those liberal persons as I got many gay friends one of my best firend is gay and I am totally `cool` with that because its alright I understand him in the end of the day its `live and let others live`, we always have been against things which are not usual thats in our nature. I have a great respect for karachiwala and romairs statements.
Lets See what Islam tells us abt. Homosexuality now,
The Qur`an and Homosexuality:
There are five references in the Qur`an which have been cited as referring to gay and lesbian behavior. Some obviously deal with effeminate men and ``masculine women.`` The two main references to homosexual behavior are:
``We also sent Lut : He said to his people : ``Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.`` Qur`an 7:80-81
``What! Of all creatures do ye come unto the males, and leave the wives your Lord created for you? Nay, but ye are forward folk.`` Qur`an 26:165
Both references relate to gay sexual activities; lesbian practices are not mentioned in the Qur`an.
The Hadith and homosexuality:
The Hadith are collections of sayings attributed to Muhammad. Many Hadiths (ahadith) discuss liwat (sexual intercourse between males). Two examples are:

``When a man mounts another man, the throne of God shakes.``
``Kill the one that is doing it and also kill the one that it is being done to.`` (in reference to the active and passive partners in gay sexual intercourse)
There is at least one mention of lesbian behavior mentioned in the Hadith:
``Sihaq (lesbian sexual activity) of women is zina (illegitimate sexual intercourse) among them.``

Few observations/ comments
a) Most men are fascinated by Lesbian action. Admit it or not the lesbian ‘totas’ in the movie ‘Girl Friend’ are its main attraction for most guys and many would like to watch the movie for this particular aspect only.

b) Almost all heterosexual men hate to see guys making out. You will never find a homosexual scene involving men (gay) in any Adult movie made for normal viewers (not gays) while the same movie might contain many lesbo scenes.

c) I think most liberal fellows have no issues with gay men as their friends/ relative as long as they keep their sexuality to themselves. This does not mean that a gay person should hide his sexual orientation. It only implies that he should not harass or make guys around him uncomfortable through their behavior/advances. Most gay men that I know do not do that and are generally great guys and good friends. However there are always few exceptions and there lies the problem.

d) In most Western countries gays enjoy complete freedom and exercise considerable powers. They have adequate social acceptability and enjoy all other avenues required to lead a very fulfilled life (gay clubs / bars etc.). Considering the fact that their numerical strength is not too high, I believe that the gays have become the most pampered and powerful community in the West.

e) Marriage is a religious as well as a civil/ legal contract. In all the religions that I know there is hardly any room for gay marriages. Even if there is some concession granted by any religious body, the main struggle by the gay lobbyists is also in getting gay marriages recognized by the state i.e. legalizing gay marriage which would lead to extending the same legal framework/ rights to gay married couples as provided to the normal couples. This I believe is extremely controversial. First of all I do not understand the need for this. Gay couples can live together as life partners without any problem. The personal and marriage laws/regulations in most countries take into consideration the husband(man) and wife (woman) roles and responsibilities in marriage and can not be logically extended to same sex marriage. But the most important point is that this would lead to subsequent child adoption by gay married couples. And this is something unnatural and unfair to the child, i.e. being raised by 1) the parents of same sex and 2) who have unnatural and abnormal sexual orientation.

There are five references in the Qur`an which have been cited as referring to gay and lesbian behavior. Some obviously deal with effeminate men and ``masculine women.`` The two main references to homosexual behavior are:

``We also sent Lut : He said to his people : ``Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.`` Qur`an 7:80-81
``What! Of all creatures do ye come unto the males, and leave the wives your Lord created for you? Nay, but ye are forward folk.`` Qur`an 26:165
Both references relate to gay sexual activities; lesbian practices are not mentioned in the Qur`an.
The Hadith and homosexuality:
The Hadith are collections of sayings attributed to Muhammad. Many Hadiths (ahadith) discuss liwat (sexual intercourse between males). Two examples are:

``When a man mounts another man, the throne of God shakes.``
``Kill the one that is doing it and also kill the one that it is being done to.`` (in reference to the active and passive partners in gay sexual intercourse)
There is at least one mention of lesbian behavior mentioned in the Hadith:
``Sihaq (lesbian sexual activity) of women is zina (illegitimate sexual intercourse) among them.``

HOW DO I SEE ISLAM`S VIEWS on HOMOSEXUALITY ?
Islam is probably the most rigidly and inhumanly anti-homosexual in it`s practices of all the world religions. The verses from the Koran condemning homosexuality are much clearer than those that the Christians use. In all Muslim countries and all areas where the Islamic Sharia law is enforced homosexuality is strictly illegal. All of Islam fits within the area of Christianity that we call ``fundamentalist`` with regards to sexuality. The debates in Islam about homosexuality are not about whether it is acceptable, but merely about how severe the punishment should be. So although there are liberal and strict elements within Islam with concern to homosexuality even the liberal opinion is the lesser of two evils.
Islam, however, is inconsistent and illogical. It simultaneously states that all homosexuality is a moral evil, a corruption... yet it also holds that the animals of the world have submitted themselves completely to Allah. Yet, in nearly all animal species we witness homosexual behavior. This must mean that it is permissible by Allah to be gay, and that animals who have submitted completely to Allah can therefore also be gay. Islamic tradition is wrong to condemn homosexuality as an evil, and in denying that homosexuality is natural they are ignoring the facts of the world, it is an ignorant religious belief equal to that of the Christians during the Dark Ages: Where truth is suppressed because it threatens tradition and the corrupt powers of organized religious leaders.
If those who submit to Allah are sincere, they must recognize Allah`s will: And such a will creates homosexuality, including homosexual people and homosexual animals, and it is not therefore the Muslims` prerogative to question this or condemn it.
So if you ar a good Muslim and a Homosexual :control yourself!!
or dont!!!

CONCLUSION:
Abrahamic religions have contributed to the most negative and destructive attitudes towards sexuality issues, especially homosexuality, but the liberal wings of some of these religions has adapted to the wide (European) acceptance of homosexuality. Many traditional religions reject the scientific, medical and psychological knowledge we have gained about sexuality and regard homosexuality as a ``choice`` or a ``moral evil``, these religions are themselves immoral and evil in their attitude, their attitudes cause hatred, bigotry, violence and oppression in the name of love or God. Homosexual communities have become accustomed to the ranting of religious fundamentalists and traditionalists.

Stuka wrote: ``Oh you`re quite welcome Jawahara. Speaking if formidable intelligence, did you go to the Musharraf School of Statistics? He is the only one I know of who throws around similar statistical samples. 90% Pakistanis are moderate, 97% are with me and the like.``

My two or three cents, if you please:

What is the connection between Jawahara and Mushy.

a: They quote numbers?
b: They are both from Delhi?
c: They are both Muslims?

Pls help me out here!

Second observations:

I hope veeru-arjun-nikki bug has not gotten into your system. I hope you realize that the ratio of sane vs. insane Indian interactors heavily favors the former. I would hate to loose another one of the latter!

Last observation:

The 99% could be considered if Jawahra was to expand the word `molest`

Most female and male children innocently fondle each other(boy-boy, girl-girl) that is hardly homosexuality...exploring one`s sexuality maybe

The sodomy in most cases is forced and is rarely consensual (non-adult sodomy) unless of course you are PM who like `em fresh. That again is not homosexuality.

There is a certain stigma attached to homosexuality in adults and they end up marrying just to save face and have children and a normal `family life` while they pursue their extra-martial homosexual actitivies quietly. Jawahara does have point about personal freedom, provided it does not affect other people. I don`t think that there is any connection between racial oppression and behavioral oppression. If Jawahara argument equating blacks and homosexual is to be granted, then other behavioral freedoms such as freedom to grow and smoke dope should be granted, after all it is a matter of personal choice and state should not take this liberty away. Right?

#83 by Romair

[I would be interested in finding out the stance of all our friends who wear their secularism on their sleeves, on the issue of gay marriage.]

This guy just cannot resist bringing India into anything and everything.

#82 by Jawahara
“for someone who claims to interact with so many gay people what is the root of your intolerance.”

What my views on Gay marriages have to do with tolerance or intolerance?

Now I am being accused of bigotry for pointing out that the whole gay marriage saga is nothing more than a hoax to make some money. You obviously don’t know enough gays to understand the issue in its right context.

This whole thing is politically instigated in an election year when one side is taking some beating in the polls. Some money grabbers show up and take up a court decision and play it up for the media to give breathing room to the wingnuts.

Politicians thrive on gullible. A politician in SFA shores up his credentials that were damaged in elections and another calls for the amendment in the constitution and here we have people betting their whole common sense on it.
These bleeding heart liberals have no sense of what they are saying and what they are doing except for accusing people of being Intolerant.
Yes! I oppose those gay parades too. Those ostentatious displays of vulgarity on the streets of cities where some decent folks and kids live. Comparing those hos parades to Macy’s parade is like comparing Julia Roberts of Pretty woman to Linda Lovelace of the deep throat.


#83 by Romair
“How can someone be secular and not support gay marraige?”

You sound like an amiable dunce!

#90 by stuka
``I suddenly feel very awkward and alone as a member of that tiny minority that grew up in India and was not molested.``

You were not! I thought the last one percent was reserved for the bearer of the news :)

hi,
farzana i am a relative novice on chowk. i read your article and was surprised at your comprehension of the vedanta way of life. you should first read the upanishads and other texts before you start going around town talking abopiut it. Mujhe lagta hai this is your farz as an indian(hindu or otherwise).as a culture which is 10000 years old we do not need to learn anything on spiritualism atleast from the moslems etc.u seem to be a NDTV fan because their viewpoint is as distorted as theirs.your viewpoint is that of a typical psycho case who would rather go and live with someone else`s family because your own family seems to you to be backward,oppressive and poor.

``You either believe all human beings deserve some rights regardless of their gender, the color of their skin, their countries of origin or their sexuality or they don`t.``

The first three conditionalities are not behavioral. The last one is.

``as usual, a very astute and mature comment from you. Thank you for not letting me change my view of your formidable intelligence. ``

Oh you`re quite welcome Jawahara. Speaking if formidable intelligence, did you go to the Musharraf School of Statistics? He is the only one I know of who throws around similar statistical samples. 90% Pakistanis are moderate, 97% are with me and the like.

It would be interesting if you could provide some sort of methodology used to derive a 99% calculation. I suddenly feel very awkward and alone as a member of that tiny minority that grew up in India and was not molested.

[(almost 99% of my friends and young relatives, male and female have been sexually molested in India)]

jawahara...
please revise your percentile....

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#83
``In a secular system, the state and religion are separate. That means no religious rule should have a place in state legislation.``

`Thou shalt not kill` is one of the Ten Commandments, which are religious edicts. Should the secular state have no law against murder for that reason?

No, because even secular laws are made based on peoples` values and people`s values can be religious or nonreligious. That is why laws regarding marriage or murder or euthanesia or abortion bear an often close correlation to religious values of people living in the said secular state.

The secular state only promises not to get involved in religious matters, it does not undertake to banish religious values from the population.

nhk#85
I did not only cross the line...main te kandh vi tapp giyaN:)
You are quiet right about desi conservatism.....it is almost impossible to break it for very long...eh aisa kambal ay jihnu jinna chhaddo ohna chimbRda.

Dulla Bhatti

I accept I went beyond the line - even for the sake of discussion! It was more in the spirit of killing the taboos rather than approval of deviencies.

And it is not right to put everything in black & white since we all are inherently culturally still quite conservative; regardless of our pretentions.

Hello Romair/83, you are correct. Secular people also need to support the hollow earth theory (inside hemisphere). To do this, they shall need to manufacture a huge big private sector transporter fit enough to carry all the non-secularists and send them to outer space to keep an eye on the rest of them. Once they are up there anyway, they might as well keep them over there itself.

Please dress warm, and keep your certificates, in triplicate, handy.

By the way, what are your views on Rapture?

How can someone be secular and not support gay marraige?

This is something I have not been able to figure out. Marriage is 100% religious phenomenon. Yet it is one of the most heavily legislated issue in all secular countries. It relates to tax benefits, social security, etc.; not to mention social status, electoral politics, etc.

The state specifically and openly legislates on a religious issue, in case of marriage.

In a secular system, the state and religion are separate. That means no religious rule should have a place in state legislation. Either every couple should get equal state previlages or no one should get state previlages. This implies that male-male, male-female, brother-sister, cousin-cousin, etc. unions all need to be considered equal by the state. Similarly, a person should be allowed to marry as many other persons of the same or different gender, as he/she wants, as long as it is done with consent.

This is the true separation of state and religion.

I think the next coming decades will be interesting for the secularism and state vs. religion debate. Marriage is currently the social foundation stone of all societies - be they secular or religious. Yet secularism, and specifically gay marriage is going to open up a legalistic floodgate on what is and is not allowed in a society. It will turn the current moral definitions of a society on its head. This will result in some secular societies, like Western Europe completely throwing religion out the door. And some secular societies, like USA, clinging on to it furthur.

I have heard that there are already parties that are preparing to open up polygomy in the legal level, after they see a positive decision on gay marriage. After all, polygamy should be legal in a secular state, if it is done with consent. If one can have ten mistresses in such a state, then why cannot one have ten wives? Why should the state care, if it is secular?

Anyone who claims to support secularism has to fight for gay marriage rights (and for all other kinds of marriage rights)- be they in USA, Pakistan or India. I would be interested in finding out the stance of all our friends who wear their secularism on their sleeves, on the issue of gay marriage. I am afraid if they do not support it, then they have quite the double standard, i.e. they also are bent on bringing religion into politics, while simultaneously arguing for the opposite.......hypocrisy in my opinion......

#76 Stuka, as usual, a very astute and mature comment from you. Thank you for not letting me change my view of your formidable intelligence.

HP, for someone who claims to interact with so many gay people what is the root of your intolerance. And no, I am not, a sitting on the sidelines idealogue. I have plenty of daily interactions with gay people.

Yes, most regular gay people live every day lives and don`t dance in the gay pride parade. But then most straight people don`t inflate big balloons and march in brass bands every day either. But they both have the right to do their own version of a parade.

There is a difference between demeaning comments and gay bashing. Beating a young man to death and leaving him tied in the fields of Laramie, WY, is not the same as someone harrassing a straight person. It is not just a matter of degrees.

Yes, gays are fighting against bigotry but they are also asking for the same rights all of us take for granted. And, marriage, in its legal form with *all* its attendant rights and privileges (all 800+ of them) is a basic right being denied to them.

They are no better than anyone else but they are also no worse. That`s it.

Anyway, no one has ever changed their minds about this issue. You either believe all human beings deserve some rights regardless of their gender, the color of their skin, their countries of origin or their sexuality or they don`t. I am not trying to change anyone`s mind here, just stating my opinion. So, this is the last from me on this topic.

It would be immodest of me to opine on the subject of [male] homosexuality from a South Asian perspective let alone pretend to be an international expert and talk about it as a global phenomenon. Female homosexuality is far beyond my [limited] expertise.

Nevertheless, as far as Pakistan is concerned, I am entitled to put across my first hand observations. And according to my humble opinion Pakistani homosexuals can be sorted into five major subsets.

1. Genetic ones, those who are by nature homosexuals
2. Those who are practising it because of necessity. Military garrisons, prisons, boarding schools, madrassas with testosterone-propped young lads without any pussal outlet to get rid of their overflowing body fluids. Find solace in “bhai-chara”
3. Non-voluntary. Those who are being misused and sexually exploited in environments type mentioned in No. 2.
4. Got into it due to reasons given in 2 & 3 and then develop a taste for it.
5. So-called adventurers. People ``exploring`` themselves, testing limits and in some cases trying to be liberal, modern and/or following fashion [as in the West].

The group of women NHK saab alluded to <>primarily started doing it for the sake of their respective husbands, who in turn, normally, belong to group 2. And then stuck over there either voluntarily or have had no option.

* Bechari bhabian & Begum Sahiban* [No offence to my fellow fauji brothers]

Without any prejudice against any ethnic group, in Afghanistan & NWFP male sexuality is quite widespread. To an extent that some people over there very seriously believe that sex with women is for the sake of reproduction, with young guys for pleasure and enjoyment. “Ashna” is a well known term and concept in some of the areas.

Interestingly, all over Pakistan, it is perfectly OK to be an active homo, but NOT being a passive one. In simple words to be the one who is using his male wand is not frowned upon but the one who get f***ed. Strange standards!!

PS.
One of the reasons for the rise of Taliban was their dislike for this practice.

What was once considered at worse a form of sexual perversion, and at beast sexual dysfunction we have moved to talk of `community` and `rights`. I missed something along the way...

What is it about challenging the traditional family, having an identity solely based on sexual activity, etc. that implies `community-hood` and the right to rights? No, this is not about establishing an `opressed community`, but about establishing a stick to beat tradition with.

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Jawahara #75
good writing! unlike the article above...

#75 by Jawahara
“How many gay people do you interact with every day?”

Many! My business partner is gay! Lives in Miami beach, I live on the west coast and I talk to him at least five times every day. Whenever we travel for business, we go to gay bars in different cities. I used to frequent Tracks in SW Wash, DC. When I lived in DC, -with my wife- as we liked the atmosphere there. My best friend’s sister is gay and her partner hates me for calling god a he. Need more? So I know what I am talking about more then many ideologues who have not been to gay bars and have no knowledge of the gay lifestyle in the US.

Most of the regular people in the gay community don’t act like drag queens in the gay pride parades. They are regular people who live a normal life. Then we have exhibitionist that spoil it for everybody. After making so much noise about the gay marriage only about a couple of hundred actually got married. There are no lines in SFA now. That was all stunting for political mileage and for publicity. So now some politicians can polish off more vote and skim some more from the SIMPLE folks of the Christian right.

When this proposed amendment goes before the senate in July, we will see some loud noisey parades and money making by both -anti or pro gay marriage- politicians. The whole thing is a scam and only gullible fall for it. Some have clearly bought the whole thing hook, line, and sinker.

“How many straight bashings are there”
Plenty!!! Try some gay bars. An asian - with no inclination for making passes, would get you plenty of stares and often some really demeaning comments.
Did you even know that in the gay community, some hate Asians because Asians are perceived to be anti-gay?

“The gay movement in the US is what it is, getting rights for themselves”

Most gays are fighting against bigotry in the society.

They already have rights like all hetros have. US citizen’s rights are enshrined in the Bill of rights and the constitution. They can do whatever they want in privacy and now in public whatever and whenever they desire. What do they need special rights for?

Are they better than everybody else because they do it the wrong way?

(almost 99% of my friends and young relatives, male and female have been sexually molested in India),

HAHAHA, what a load of bull. Maybe that`s why all your friends turned gay...heh heh.

HP #72

``Isn’t that the real problem? How do you move on when “they” are always in your face with “their” demands and rights. In the US, gays are a tiny whiney minority. Truly, it would be really easy to just ignore them but would they let anybody ignore them first?``

How are *they* always in your face? How many gay people do you interact with every day? Do a content analysis of news stories. Percentage wise, how many gay stories are there versus those aimed at heteros?

For me, I find self righteous, homophobic bigots offensive. I would like to wish them away but they have the right to express their opinion. What they don`t have a right to do is to incite violence, hurt or kill people. I also hate the damn feel-good-about-my-town-parades with floats and syrupy sentiment equally offensive. I wish I could ban all of them, especially that damned Macy`s parade. I find all of it annoying and stupid. And there are a lot more of those than one gay pride parade. You dont have to go to the parade. I don`t go to any of the parades I find offensive.

Btw, how many gay people have killed heteros for the *only* reason that they are straight? How many straight bashings are there? On the other hand, we all know of the gay people killed for being gay.


If people want to get married to whoever, as long as the other partner has given his/he adult consent what`s the problem? Heteros living without marriage have a choice. They can choose to get get married if they want. Gays want the same choice. It`s not like all of them will be running off to the altar. BUt if they want to, they should have the same choice.

Btw, the marriage thing is not to just score some obscure point. Marriage, as a social construct is very different from live-in relationships. There are some 800 or so distinct and legal rights that married couples have which are not enjoyed by live-in couples. So, if a legal marriage in the US, is denied to gays, it is actually denying tax-paying people their civil rights.

About Mardi Gras! How much more or less offensive are gays in the parade than breast-baring, drunken girls? If someone is a prude Mardi Gras would not be a destination at all. It revels in raunchiness, gay or straight.

HP, are you serious or are you just trying to get a rise out of me? There are tons of things in India that are truly shameful. How come I don`t see people being embarrassed about honor killings, dowry burnings, female infanticide and foeticide, religious and sectarian violence, corruption, grinding poverty, sex abuse of kids (almost 99% of my friends and young relatives, male and female have been sexually molested in India), obscene displays of wealth in tasteless weddings...the list is endless. Those are the things that should make us feel ashamed. But no, let`s not ever see or even know about two (or more) people in a consensual relationship. *That* is the straw that will break the camel`s back.

The gay movement in the US is what it is, getting rights for themselves and about time I say. For any real change to occur the issue has to be politicized to change laws, etc. Are you as outraged about the crackpot right that tries to dictate how we ought to live our lives.

At one time blacks were not considered human. It amazes me that the same language and vitriol is coming to the forefront with this issue as did during the era of segregation.

Hetero couples in India, in increasing numbers (especially in the metros) are not living the lives their parents did. They are exploring male/female roles and their own sexuality more openly. Another reason the gay pride parades are often so over the top is the very reason that the parades are held. When you suppress, humiliate and ignore people, when you harrass and hurt them, if they get an opportunity to come out together in full force, they can`t hold themselves back. That Kolkata parade sounds like fun. About time, they had a lively parade there.


That`s it for now.

dullabhatti...

LOL

dullabhatti # 70


ROTFL

#67 by Jawahara
“Really, if people have a problem with gay people. Don`t have sex with them. Ignore them. Move on.”

Isn’t that the real problem? How do you move on when “they” are always in your face with “their” demands and rights. In the US, gays are a tiny whiney minority. Truly, it would be really easy to just ignore them but would they let anybody ignore them first?

A great majority of the US states are already common Law states where couples or live in partners already have rights. Why push the envelope of gay marriages to the tilt, when a good number of hetros are already living without marriage? In fact, the states that have allowed gay marriages already allow live in partner’s rights.

What about Gay pride parades every year except for forcing attention. Even at Mardi grass in new Orleans this year, gays were prominent in parades with their lurid acts like other attention hos.

A good majority of the people don’t care either way whether gays were born that way or turned that way by some obnoxious child abuse excuses.

In the US, most of the pro and anti gay noises are ploys to gain attention for some political operatives to become heftier politically.

I think last year they had a gay parade in Kolkota. The pictures that I saw from that parade were clearly offensive from the Indian standards. Even the hetro couples in India or Pakistan stay within the confines of acceptable social behavior, why was it necessary for gays to take out a parade with acts that were clearly offensive to most of the watchers?

Re: Nass,

OK, good! Why dont you give us your addy and then our people will call Farzana`s people and maybe you kids can make some nookie.

Late.

>``There is rarely any talk about Christianity vs. modernity. . . .``

perhaps not all so publicly (nooralain)

What can one say? To those who are attuned to the intellectual currents in Saudi Arabia only, it will come as a surprise that there is a star out there called the Sun.

I was reading somewhere that God has clearly said somwehere to the effect ``condemned are men who have sex with their wives in the anus``..... so amongst all the millions of problems humans will be facing in next million years God thought it to be important to be told that zanani di bunD nai maar sakday....hey man I am not goint to tell you how to cure fever, common cold, headache, cancer, polio, chicken pox....no hint on how to cure allergies(I am sneezing all morning today:-))..but hey man I tell you don`t have sex with your wife in the anus.

Rabb ji eh kehRi gallaN choN gall si jehRI karni zaroori si...hain?

fz #46 which para. is that one, my dear? (Just in case i decide to go to town with it)

karachiwala, good for you. Your post highlighted the fact that sex (with who and how) is not as important as who the person is. Just as my only identity is not that I am hetero, so are gay people more than with who and how they have sex. Hope you are happy in your marrige. Kudos to your parents as well for being so wonderful.

Labyrinth, good questionnaire but I am too lazy to answer all of it. So, here`s my take.
I think for me, bottom line, I don`t care if it is an orientation or a choice. I think it is probably a behavior hardwired into a person`s brain but even if it is not, if s/he is having sex with another consenting adult, what do I care how they are doing it. We choose to do things all the time. How do we as hetero people have sex or relate to people or our interests, they are all choices we make. And perhaps orientation and choice is linked anyway. What makes me choose to do the things I do? Is it because it`s something that comes to me from the inside (orientation) or because of the world I live in (pure choice). There is no pure choice I think. Why do some women like bald men? Why do some men like women with short or long hair? All the cominations and permutations out there. So some men like men and some women like women. So?

Really, if people have a problem with gay people. Don`t have sex with them. Ignore them. Move on. I don`t like people who do plenty of things. That doesn`t mean they should be deprived of their rights. I don`t like people who eat with their mouth open, who condemn others using the crutch of religion, who tell me what women should and should not do, who tell me what marriage should be like. I do what I do to Tv programming I don`t like. Shut them out and turn them off.

If my child was gay I would truly not have a problem with it. My only concern would be his/her physical safety (from the loose cannon bigots running around) and emotional well-being. My husband and I have talked about this at length. I want my child to be happy, successful and fulfilled. The gender s/he is attracted to is not my problem.

I thnk gay marriage is long overdue. Damn it they should have to face the same legal and other problems the rest of us breeders do. Seriously, by the time our kids grow up they will look at a world where gay marriage was illegal with as much dismay and surprise as we look upon the white/black marriage issue. It was telling, therefore, that Massachusetts used that archaic law as a defence against gays from other states marrying within our state. Shameful, really.

That`s it for now. A good, juicy discussion worthy article after a while. Thanks FV

This was wonderful, FV. And impressions, I do not think she is ``out of her mind.``

some questions I found on chowk.com
1. Even though current research indicates that sexual orientation is fixed and unchangeable, some still insist that homosexuals could change if they wanted to. o Could you change your sexual orientation on demand?
o Would you want to? Why or why not?

2. Many people assume that homosexuality is a choice, and that gay people have made the decision to be gay. o If you assume that homosexuality is a matter of choice, do you assume that heterosexuality is a matter of choice also?
o When did you choose your sexual orientation?

3. Suppose for a minute that sexual orientation is a simple matter of choice (which it does not appear to be): o Does that mean that gays and lesbians are less deserving of civil rights protection?
Before you answer, consider the following:
Religious affiliation is a choice in our country, yet our government provides protection from discrimination on the basis of this personal decision.

4. Currently, our government does not provide gays and lesbians with the benefits of marriage, or protection from discrimination in employment and housing. o Should gays and lesbians pay taxes to a government that fails to provide them with basic civil rights protection?
o Why should gays and lesbians pay into funds that provide special rights and benefits for heterosexuals and their partners, but does little to benefit homosexuals and their loved ones?

5. Would you turn down a life saving organ donation, if the donor was gay or lesbian?

6. Does it seem fair that a heterosexual couple married for one hour has more legal rights and responsibilities toward each other than a same-sex couple that has been together for 25 years?

7. If your child were gay:
o Would you love him/her any less?
o Would you want your child to grow up and live in a society that refused to accept him/her, and grant him/her equal rights?
o Would you want people to make assumptions about your child based on stereotypes and myths, or would you want people to judge your child based on logic, fact and personal merit?
o Would you believe your child was less deserving of basic civil rights, the freedom to spend his/her life with the person they love, and the benefits of legal marriage?

8. If your neighbor or co-worker were gay:
o How would his/her sexual orientation affect you?
o Would granting him/her equal rights, infringe upon your rights? How?

9. Currently, gay and lesbian couples are denied the benefits of a legal marriage, while heterosexual couples continue to reap the benefits of a legal union. o Who has special rights now?
o Would granting gays and lesbians the right to marry interfere with anyone else`s right to marry? How?
o How would it affect the benefits heterosexual couples currently enjoy?
o Would granting gays the right to marry affect your marriage? How?


10. Why do so many people consider AIDS/HIV to be a gay disease when: o The World Health Organization reports that heterosexual contact is responsible for over 70% of all AIDS/HIV cases world wide?
o According to CDC statistics (July, 1997) heterosexual sex is the fastest growing mode of transmission for HIV in the United States - growing at a rate of 15 to 20 percent a year, compared to 5 percent for intravenous drug users and 5 percent for male homosexuals.

This passage by Dr. Zafar Khan (within the 5 stars) demonstrates the position Islam takes with regards to Homosexuality. However, emphasis should be given to the Quranic Verses .

---

*****Homosexuality is not allowed in Islam. There are various verses in Quran where Allah clearly says about Homosexuality.

We also (sent) Lut: he said to his people: ``Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you?”For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.`` - Holy Quran 7:80-81

The Quran forbids any sexual relationship other than in a marriage between a man and a woman. Many homosexual men and women claim that they are born with their sexual preferences and that they have no choice. Although this point is very much in dispute in the medical world, it has no support in the Quran. Even then, irrespective of the nature of homosexuality, this matter would not affect the laws spelled out clearly in the Quran .

We know that this life is a test. Every one of us has his/her own test. For example someone may be born blind, but that person is expected to live his/her life according to God’s law. Others are born poor, short, tall, weak, missing fingers, having big nose...etc but all of them are expected to follow God’s law. Some men or women may never marry in their life, or spend part of their life without a spouse. As per the Quran they still have to live a chaste life and avoid any sexual contacts outside a marriage. They have to suppress their sexual feelings to follow God’s law. It is a major test and not an easy one for many. Only those who submit to God will do everything they can to follow His law. They know that their salvation and eternal happiness rests in doing so.

Since God condemns homosexuality, then we have to believe that a man or a woman with homosexual feelings is expected to behave like any other human being and follows God’s laws if he/she truly believes in them. He/she shall resist his/her feelings, maintains abstinence, use all available resources of help including medical, social and behavioral therapies to overcome their behavior and feelings. They should pray to God to help them getting over it and submit to God’s law that sees homosexuality as gross sin. Only those who steadfastly persevere in obeying God’s law will they pass their test and confirm their submission to God.

For a person who asks, ``why me?`` We know God is the Most Merciful and Just (16:90) and He will give each one of us a fair test and a fair chance. He assigns the tests to suite each one of us and we believe that He will never burden any soul beyond its means (23:2).

And We have explained to man in this Qur`an every kind of similitude: yet the grater part of men refuse (to receive it) except with ingratitude! - Holy Quran 17:89

We have explained in detail in this Qur`an for the benefit of mankind every kind of similitude: but man is in most things contentious. - Holy Quran 18:54

We have put forth for men in this Qur`an every kind of Parable in order that they may receive admonition. - Holy Quran 39:27

The spouses that God have made from among ourselves are those that aid in producing children. Since the spouses in homosexual relationship would not produce children they are not the spouses God made from among ourselves.

And Allah has made for you mates (and companions) of your own nature. And made for you out of them sons and daughters and grandchildren and provided for you sustenance of the best: will they then believe in vain things and be ungrateful for Allah’s favors? - Holy Quran 16:72

With regard to dealing with homosexuals, the basic rule governing this would be 60:8 & 9.
Allah forbids you not with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just. Allah only forbids you with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith and drive you out of your homes and support (others) in driving you out from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances) that do wrong. - Holy Quran 60:8-9
*****

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Every human I personally believe has the tendency to be attracted to the same sex once in their lifetime, but then the question is if the person goes beyond and considers it as a possibility as well. The real test is to curb such desires and concentrate on the path prescribed by Islam.

With regards to the effect this has on the family. Males and females are essentially different and the way a male spouse handles a situation is different to the way a woman may perceive a given situation and handles a situation, and there in lies the thin balance. The balance May Not be achieved in case of two female spouses or two male spouses. The male spouse may not actually be Mummy incase of gay relationships and the female spouse may not really be like a Daddy in a lesbian situation.

{{Infact a child may suffer more if, belonging to such a lesbianish setup, ever heard of cat fights.... :) }}

(No intention of hurting Gay or Lesbian Chowkies)

However, Homosexuals deserve as much respect as any other human as we are all created EQUAL in the eyes of Allah in Islam and no one should mistreat them in any way.


[[ By the way, if one has watched the movie, they would realize that the intimacy felt by one girlfriend was not shared by the other. Infact the other, had no such lesbianish inclinations. So I really do not understand what the fuss is all about by Hindu radicals, when the movie is not highlighting such a relationship at all. It focuses, I believe more on obsession and psycho behavior. ]]

jawahara:

good post!

farzana:

when you say that this article has dealt with aspects other than religion, it is rather difficult not to talk about it, when you have put forth the question of why LGBT communities do not separate themselves from religion, and when for some folk culture and religion are somewhat enmeshed together.

``But if we wish to take this recent example, we will realise that Hindu culture is completely insensitive to anything close to modernity. At every point in time, modernity ought to include sensitisation towards marginalised groups.`` (italics mine)

i think my discomfort with this particular statement was expressed by jawahara. this does sound rather like a blanket statement, and an absolutist one at that. Hindu culture as defined by whom? certainly not the shiv saniks. or by some of the posters here who are virulently opposed to or physically sickened by same sex contact.

``There is rarely any talk about Christianity vs. modernity. . . .``

perhaps not all so publicly, but this is something that churches have been grappling with for quite a while now. many churches. as i was reading this, i was thinking of the church i used to go to a decade ago, a church in which certain members including the ministers wanted to change the mission statement to include the LGBT community. it was a struggle, but from what i recall they were successful. there is benjamin matthew williams. . and then there are those within various churches who struggle with remaining in them and opening them up because as jawahara said, ``it is comfortable. it is home. it is tradition.`` and the struggle continues. . .


jang,

thanks for responding back to me.

best,
n~

Re: Farzana

“Why do two young women, hot for each other, make a bunch of men get all excited? Excited enough to tear their posters, to go on a rampage at cinema halls and, when they have finally got off, to sit and talk about Indian culture?”

I would venture to guess that these same men who wax outraged and wax eloquent under a mob siege end up after the poster-tearing spree in the solitude of their bedrooms waxing their own poles. The mere sight of two lipstick lesbians is sufficient drive any man worth his salt to spank his monkey. If hot girl on girl action does not make you slap your dolphin you’re probably gay. Tell you the truth I’d like to have one of the posters myself. The great thing about posters is that you can use them after for cleaning up.

“But if we wish to take this recent example, we will realize that Hindu culture is completely insensitive to anything close to modernity.”

You must be out of your mind. How can you make a statement like that as an epilogue to Row Kavi’s article which has as its central premise the acceptance in Hindu culture of alternate sexuality. BTW, Ashok Row Kavi is without a doubt a modern Indian hero.

“This is the worrying aspect about the gay cult. It seeks to co-opt bisexuals who, if they were indeed inclined towards sodomy, could have perhaps been able to practice it in a heterosexual relationship, as many such couples do. Most ‘pure’ gays have always had a problem with bisexuality; they believe that it is a compromise.”

You haven’t the foggiest, lady. Anal sex amongst heterosexual couples has absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality. In fact a guy may willing to take it up the yin yang from his wife’s strap-on does not necessarily mean that he would offer up his back side to any Tom’s hairy dick.

There is no gay ‘cult’.

Most gays don’t have a problem with bisexuality. Again I refer you to Mr. Row Kavi’s article.


“Is it such insecurity the reason why so much time is wasted in explaining homosexuality in terms of an hormonal imbalance or a natural state of being? Why can’t gays just be happy?”

Your writing betrays an incredible lack of perception and knowledge about the most basic issues surrounding LGBT issues. You are ignorant, insensitive and opinionated. A dangerous mixture.

Sincerely,
Left Impression.


P.S: Left is a sexual deviant and I do not condone his views. Regards, Right Impression.

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#51 by Jawahara

Great post!!

Urstruly,

In one of your posts you mentioned that you are a `soorvanshi`.

Amazing!! If your forefathers had this impotency problem, how come your family still survives? Or did the generosity of Arabs help the cause?

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An intriguing article!

There is a simple answer to the question why men who find homsexuality between men repulsive are so turned on by lesbian women. The simple answer is ...whats better than 1 cake...2 cakes. Or so the common joke goes. However there is also something in the perceived notion of lesbianiam by these type of men, they find it perverse thus the women might be more receptive, the fact that those women will have nothing to do with men at all does not arise. There is a psuedo belief that two lesbian women are more open to sexual approach then a single straight woman. Complex diagnosis, but something like that.

There was a panaroma programme on BBC recently about some living Hindu God called Saeen Baba who likes Young Boys, specially young White boys. Some of his victims were interviewed and the lurid details of this pervert were put to a BJP minister who became absolutely furious by these facts and started verbally abusing the BBC interviewer on camera. This guy is apparently a mainstream Hindu Religious Leader yet nothing is made of this at all in India.

And I thought that our ``sideline`` Fundamentalists were crazy.

The more I read replies the more it `annoy`s me`
I am gay born and brought up in Karachi in a upper middle class family where forget homosexuality discussing about `sex` was taboo -- I was always in a labyrinth -- but astonishly i grew up as any other kid from the block -- was captain of cricket team , was head prefect was above everyone -- now settled in US with my better half married and been living togather for 9 years with one kid we are the happiest couple on earth ! my family finally agreed on our union and it was the most happiest day of my life. I fought everyone to be honest with teh system for lving the life I want to which is `to me as normal`.
Theres nothing feminish about us nothing at all we got out degrees and settled down in our respected fields and contributing to teh sucess of our families and our country (Pakistan).
As far as `gay poeple in Pakistan` are concerned, what I know is that there si a large community based in Karachi/Islamabad and Lahore which organize private parties and trips openly with about more then 2-3oo people at a same time. There presence is on internet and they got this irc channel called `gaypakistani` -- plus a very intresting website `www.gaypakistani.pixelsndots.com` on which you could see articles on politics/sexuality and love. In Pakistan society is changin fast and if you could notice (thanks to Geo in US) we could see some gay characters on dramas too now -- which is a good change .
So sexuality is something private .. gay people are noit sissy they could be more manly then straight people its that our people look at religioin everytime which says `homosexuality is a biggets sin` which is right -- I had a option wheer I had to be either a good muslim or someone I wanted to be (the way i was more dont maybe genes) and I decided to be someoen I wanted to be for teh sake of my love for the person I met 13 years ago.
I salute parents who accept theer kids the way they are I have seen many examples and many Pakistani couples living in Pakistan and abroad specially in US and UK.

#14 by nooralain on June 21, 2004 3:27pm PT

noorie

Temple carvings dont show boys (or youngsters) in sexual activity. Even homosexual carvings are extremely obscure. Out of thousands of erotic murals and carvings, i recall seeing only one man-man carving. Ancient greeks were very fond of boys apparently and european painters are very fond of cherubs. But you just dont see this in native indian art-forms, not even with greek-influenced gandgara forms. buxom women are all over the place, and offcourse chowkies are particularly well-informed about lingam-yoni stuff.

This is not to say that their is no mention of gender ambiguity in scriptures. Just that homosexuality finds little mention. In MahaBharat, there is mention of cross-dressing by Arjuna as a dance-teacher character (Brihanada) who coached a princess. I dont hoever recall if Arjuna later marries that student of his (someone more knowledgeble?). Kamal-hasan should make a movie on this.

Also, one very important character called Shihkandi is gender-ambiguous. Since Bhishma the warrior has a boon that he cannot be killed by man or a woman, he gets shot by Shikhandi. Their is however no mention of sexual exploits of Shikhandi, just a mention of the chanracter as of ``Napunsak`` gender (third gender).

So, in short, no boy-love, that seems to be an import. And hindu (indian) scriptures are not shy about explicit sexuality.

It is nothing but the perenial impotence and shrunken masculinity of Hindu males, that is making their women turn towards each other for which they cannot get otherwise. At least someone is benefitting from ``modernization``. So quite whinning, relax and let `em enjoy. It is something that bhagvan made, ok.

Interesting article, Farzana.

``But if we wish to take this recent example, we will realise that Hindu culture is completely insensitive to anything close to modernity.``

I think this is a rather blanket statement. Is the Sena brand of hindutva synonymous with Hindu culture? I am not sure that`s accurate. I bristle at those who say that the taliban style of Islam is synonymous with Islamic culture. The Sena is anti-modern and anti-anything that people choose that fall outside their narrow view of Hinduism. I don`t think that is the same as Hindu culture being opposed to modernity.

In India, I always thought, lesbianism was this secret that always existed but was tolerated. I remember it being discussed in whispers, especially when it involved someone we knew. However, gay men could get beaten up. The very suspicion of a man being gay could land him in a world of hurt. I remember this guy on a bus being beaten up to within an inch of his life because I guess he touched someone...gasp! another guy. I still remember the anger, fear and hatred on the faces of those beating him. This also happens in some cases when a girl who is molested appeals for help but this was something else.

I wonder why. I think what lesbians do is not really considered `real sex.` Hence, the reason hetero guys have the two women fantasy. It`s really seen as foreplay, tittilating and, therefore, not real sex. So, as long as women keep their lesbianism under wraps, they can indulge in it and be okay. And men had better keep their love for the same sex secret or end up being beaten up or killed.

It`s weird isn`t it, that in a country where men roam arm in arm and are physically so close, there remains this phobia about gay men. It`s only in the murky area of same sex sexuality that I personally think, women are somewhat safer in India than are men. So, while there has been a `Fire,` and now a `Girlfriend,` there has never really been a film about unambiguously gay characters. I shudder to think of the Sena reaction when/if that happens.

I think, however, most of the article comes off as being rather mixed up. What is the real premise? It also seems to sometimes a compilation of various truisms about gay and lesbian people. I have to confess that terms like ``the limp wristed kind,`` and ``the gay cult,`` troubled me.

`` If the intention of the gay community is to turn its back on organised religion, which makes it a victim, then why can it not seek a path outside of the ambit of such religions?``

That`s a really interesting question, isn`t it? Why do any of us choose to have something central to our lives legitimize our choices in life? Perhaps, religion and personal spirituality fulfils people so much that they cannot conceive that something that feels so right to them would deny them their integral lifestyle. Perhaps, it is the same reason I cling to my Muslim roots despite all the problems I have with the religion. It is comfortable. It is home. It is tradition.

This problem is clearly not faced just by gay or Muslim people. Senator John Kerry is struggling with this as he supports abortion and has been told he can not get communion because of that.

Homosexuality has always existed and it always will. Heck, there are homosexual animals in nature. Whether countries accept gay people or religions endorse them, they will remain. Yes, homosexuality will always be there. THe only difference (the modernity) is that gay people are now vocal about their rights. They are asserting their difference and their sameness. They are making clear that their sexuality is just one aspect of their being, just as being hetero is one aspect of ours. Yes, they do have to be politicized and open about it because that is the only path to acceptance or at least to live and let live. I think, to me, that is the modern path of homosexuality. To emerge from the shadows and gain their rightful place in society while openly asserting their sexuality.

Once (if) that happens the actual act of sex will return to the bedroom where it belongs with its cousin, hetero sex. Well that, or it will be exploited like hetero sex is, to sell cars and makeup and soft drinks and dreams and glamor. Now, that would be true equality.

Hi Farzana.
Not sure what the fuss is about. Or how this is about Hinduism and modernity.
Haven`t seen the film, but I understand that gay people don`t like their portrayal in it. Karan Razdan is not one of my fave people because of the way he treated his wife-but then I heard only one side of the story, I`m sure you heard both. My grandmother`s accepting of my gay friends, both male and female-when they`ve visited India, they`ve visited her. Some of her `gang` from the Ramakrishna Mission met them too. Last year, Parliament voted almost unanimously, I think to keep homosexuality illegal. I am happy to report that no split along religious lines was evident.

FV,

Here`s a damning indictment of `girlfriend` for being a waste of time and worse. Wondering how many so-called `moral guardians` and `journalists` Razdan paid to publicize this trash...

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film review of `Girlfriend` by liberal Outlook magazine

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Sometimes even a film critic`s job requires spunk and spirit. How else can you watch Girlfriend but with patience, fortitude and a sense of humour? In the beginning, the film`s suitably asinine for some unintentional laughs. At a time when Bollywood is trying hard not to believe in ``suspension of disbelief``, the film tries to pass off Mauritius for Bombay/Goa. Its characters do little more than drinking, dancing and screaming. There are some bona fide gems pretending to be dialogues: ``Main ek mard ke jism mein kaid aurat hoon....``, ``Ek ladka ladkon se pyaar nahin karta, ladki se karta hai....`` The protracted lesson on alphabets and numerals is absolutely priceless—our grievously affected, ``normal`` heroine Sapna (Amrita) and her irredeemably nitwit boyfriend (Ashish) keep saying 1-2-3-4 for l-o-v-e. How you wish they could grow up, learn mathematics and count ahead!

No wonder even laughing at the film becomes a bore chore. Sapna is dumb enough not to realise that her touchy-feely housemate Tanya (Isha) wants more than friendship, her excuse for what the two do between the sheets in the night: ``Raat mein main behosh ho jati hoon``. And then things take an ominous turn when even something as heinous as child sexual abuse becomes a joke: the trauma of the victim trivialised by an inane reference to a chocolate. The film keeps peddling all the clichés possible about a lesbian—that she is manly, wears trousers and leather jackets, likes to keep her hair short, rides mobikes, is a kickboxing expert, bashes up guys in night-clubs. She is a DIY guy who knows how to fix leaking taps.
Such is the attention to these details that the big-built, buxom Isha is made to look flat-chested even as the slight Amrita goes overly curvaceous. Having established the stereotypes, the film goes further. A lesbian has to be a man-hating psycho with a disturbed childhood behind her, the prototype of a Zakhmi Aurat seeking revenge. Since she is a deviant she can`t belong to the society and so will have to die. Wonder why Shiv Sena is carping so much about it when the film actually upholds their own opinion about homosexuality? In fact, the lesbian isn`t even a Hindu here but a Christian. So are the protests a ploy to get more heads into the halls and manage a mention in The Guardian? It`s the film buffs who should be protesting.

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URL is http://www.outlookindia.com/showtime.asp?fodname=20040628

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Farzana,

U are a disgrace to the community of `Writers` and its people like you who propagate unevenness in the society by using the word `Hinduism` anywhere and everywhere and also publicize your sick writing!!

So, this analysis pans `Hinduism` for being `anti-modern` because it does not support `buggery` a fact that is proven by Shiv Sena goons tearing posters of a sleazy movie that protrays lesbians as killers and suggests that lesbianism is a result of complexes arising out of molestation in childhood.

Hmmm!! As some film critic rightly pointed out, we should not see the movie; not because it is on homosexuality but because it is a poorly made movie. As someone rightly pointed out, it is not a movie for homosexuality but against it because it shows these people as `abnormal` and paints their sexual inclinations as a result of some psychological disorder.

Razdan appeared in a TV show and claimed that he was being `harrased` because he belonged to a `minority` community :-)

Razdan Sir, in India fools like you are a minority and I`m glad they are.

And Farzana ji,

Is homosexuality modernity? Are you modern?

A quick note:

I am glad to note that most interactors are sticking to the subject under discussion without resorting to terrible crudities that such a topic is amenable to. Thanks also for not picking out THAT one para and going to town about it…I will be here later to respond.

Re. the comment about whether I said some things in reply to Islam vs. modernity…I should think this article has dealt with other aspects besides religion. I admit though that the title was a tongue-in-cheek take…

PS: This is not a review of the film ‘Girlfriend’.

``however, i don`t know about the women - we don`t see too many of them in pakistan`` .............. may be not -- outside........the `Lihaf`

#42 by nazarhayatkhan

“As for the sodomy in legalized environment like marriage, Quran seems to find no problem with it ``women are your Khaeti (soil), till them as you like`` - Most Mullas agree with it –“

Not so fast my friend! Here is something for you to think about. Sodomy is not approved by the prophet.

Prophet Mohammad said: He who goes to magicians, have sex with their wives in periods or in their anus, denies the Shariah of Allah. -Tirmidhi and Masnad Imam Hanbal.
Prophet Mohammad said: Condemned are those men who have sex with their wives in their anus. -Abu-Dawood/Ibn-e-Maja.

I agree with you, it has not reach the level of a common issue in the South Asia. I would not call it a problem though. That would be insensitive.

i keep telling myself i am going to ignore the responses and respond to farzana, ignore the responses and respond to farzana *slaps forehead*, and yet. . .

and yet i am intrigued by einsteinwallah`s `women are natural lesbians` remark. all this time there has been no reason for me to be in the closet? or under a `lihaaf`? i keep trying to tell my ammi that i am a `natural` lesbian, but somehow that`s just too unnatural for her ears. when i go and see her, after i`ve dyed my hair blue and gotten that nosering i`ve wanted all my life, i will tell her that women are natural lesbians, and the trio. .hair, nosering, lesbian might just drive her over the edge!
women are natural lesbians. . .and that is why some of us are stupid enough to ruin our lives over men. . not because we`re denying ourselves to other women, but because some of us can`t live without the men we want to be with. . .imagine that.

vaisay how do women only threads (few and far between) on unplugged show that women are natural lesbians? is it the smooches, or the intimacy that we can`t seem to share with the men because they`re too much into gaaliyan and taaliyan? or is it our demeanor and the way some of us talk about men or to men? again, i think it`s great. all these avenues that have never been open to me before. perhaps the women on unplugged had no clue either.
and now i feel so liberated i can walk up to my best friend and sing `you make me feel, you make me feel, you make me feel like a natural lesbian. .` (with apologies to carole and aretha)

enough himaqat for now. now i`ve forgotten what i was going to say to farzana *slaps forehead*

Better if the Divine keeps out of the bed sheets with operative word of ``Mutual Consent between adults``.

This is genetic & natural - only the percentage of genes differ. We see everyday the ``masculine`` woman & the ``effiminate men``.

Havn`t we all had the same sex inclination in some stage in our teens including the desire for interaction with private parts.

The Mulla/Pundit/Padree crowd living in the most moralistic environment fall prey to it even more often (ref Hamidm2`s rejoinder) - as a rebellion - or as its forbiddenness makes it more pleasurable.

As for the sodomy in legalized environment like marriage, Quran seems to find no problem with it ``women are your Khaeti (soil), till them as you like`` - Most Mullas agree with it - Imam Khomeini having openly accepted it. Some women actually enjoy it more than the normal intercourse.

It is said that the Iranian girl friends offer themselves for sodomy, as a compromise, because normal intercourse could get them pregnant.

As Dost-Mitter said, society is more to blame than the Scriptures.

Also, it is not the biggest problem of South Asia.

NHK

Personally, I think this whole thing is to be viewed dispassionately if possible. If you get passionate, then good luck to all three of you in the privacy of your bedroom, or on the rocks, wherever.

Some motor vehicles have a bias control for brakes and/or motive power. You can adjust the brakes and/or power to give more or less on front, in the rear, sometimes on one side, this is like ABS or traction control. Sometimes hard, sometimes soft.

Likewise with heteros/homos, I think the Master Blaster in the Sky, controlling the bias switch, notches around with the bias control in favour of homos or heteros when population or gender ratio gets skewed. But, nobody is perfect, sometimes S/He Up In The Sky makes a mistake too.

+++

Lesbians are all behind us. Let’s talk about the new fad.

“Sounds strange but don`t blame me.
I work in a strip mall a few blocks from two different high schools.
Several times a day high school girls are coming through with PACIFIERS in their mouths! Several had them hanging from ribbons from their necks or a button hole on their shirt.
I talked to a couple of people I work with and they say it is all the rage now with these girls.
My girlfriend says it lets them be sexy.
Perhaps I am just getting old. What do you think?”

You can buy it here.

Dear Farzana:
I was expecting a review of a film from you - but of `Dev` which I intend to see and not `Girl Friend` which I don`t. Not because of the theme as such, but because, according to the reviews, it`s a frivolous and titilating film that merely exploits female sex. The film has been roundly criticised by a lesbian activist, Anjoli something for these reasons.

But what has hindu religion or even hinutva got to do with it? My knowledge of hindu scriptures is quite limited but I am not aware of their taking any position for or against homosexuality; the only restriction on sex seems to be this great emphasis on brahmcharya during bal-ashram. [unless Golwalkar issued a fatwa on this issue in his book!].

The agitation is simply an agitation of a conservative society which wants to keep all its taboos in the closets. It extends to all religions - just like preference for male child, honour killings, etc. Incidentally, Morarji turned your state (it was Bombay then!) into a dry place long before Zia thought of it in our neighbouring country, as it was not accepted by the conservative society. Now that the societal mores have changed, liquors flows freely. If the social mores change, the same will happen wrt homosexuality, regardless of what shiv-sainiks want. Indeed, they must have already gone radical transformation for the censors to have allowed this film; I am certain it would not have been passed during Nehru`s period when Hindutva and Shiv Sainiks were not even distant thunders.

And finally, are you sure that the shiv sainiks have not been paid by the producers of the film to generate free publicity for the film? It was on the BBC international news along with a provocative clip.

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Call me bigoted, call me old-fashioned, call me narrow-minded but I just can`t stand the sight of two guys kissing each other. I recently had the occasion to see two guys making out during a party and I must say it turned my stomach, I mean it literally had a physical effect on me, I though I was going to be sick. So I don`t give a rat`s ass about being politically correct or otherwise. I do NOT want to see that again.

Irfan.

I cannot get out of my mind, the image of Ishrat Jahan, in which almost like Mona Lisa she looks into the photographer`s camera with slight impish smile. Karan Razdan should make movies on encounters, islamic activism, terrorism in India, corruption etc etc. There are tonnes of topics on which movies can be made. Razdan is cheap publicitymonger.

Waisey I must say this that women are natural lesbians. Look at women only threads on unplugged.

It is unusal that one of a lesbian couple is too bossy. When it is then it is very abnormal relationship almost like any hetero relationship. I must see this movie. I good distraction from porno I see on net.

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[Interestingly, many men severely dislike homosexuality among males but get extremely aroused because of female homosexuality. How do we explain this disparity? ]

I have a theory that the differences between sexes is because of limited period of fertility of women and the fact that maternity is certain but paternity is never. The latter fact lead in past to men controlling sexuality of large number of women. In other mammals also this is true. Lions have herds in which one male dominates several lionesses. It is considered natural that two women will play with each other. Because the alternative comes with severe punishment. Lesbianism is vestige of such sexual enslavement behaviour practiced over thousands of years which harks back to our animal past.

After women become reproductively incompetent they turn to lesbianiasm and provide sexual entertainment to themselves and other women as also bonding with other women which naturally leads to passing on of culture.

... we are definitely more modern when it comes to homosexuality,

.......... now this is one area where the pakistani muslim, specially the pathan and the madrassa crowd, is way ahead of the horrible hindoos .............in cities and villages all over the northwest frontier, like bannu and mardan, it is considered a status symbol to have a boy or nada ............these beautiful boys, with kohl around their eyes and silk handkerchiefs around their necks, hang around their big bad beaus looking pretty and nobody minds ................ and everyone knows about the penchant for boys among the bearded madrassa crowd ............ it seems as if child abuse is part of the curriculum - kind of like the catholic clergy........

............ however, i don`t know about the women - we don`t see too many of them in pakistan ..............

For anyone who might be interested, the following is a recently published anthology of material on homo-eroticism in India down the ages:

Same-Sex Love in India: Readings from Literature and History edited by Ruth Vanita and Saleem Kidwai.

The ancient and mediaeval Sanskritic tradition makes up about a fourth of the book, and the mediaeval Persian-Urdu tradition another fourth; with the balance being translated modern material.

Homosexuality in ancient India

http://www.kamat.org/picture.asp?Name=7409.jpg

``But if we wish to take this recent example, we will realise that Hindu culture is completely insensitive to anything close to modernity.``

This is a neat generalization. If we agree, we are intolerant Hindus, if we disgree, then too we are intolerant Hindus. Not interested in this old game, thank you.

rahul capri. . .#27

one never knows what to expect, and then again with certain writers of articles, one can always expect the predictable. reflection works wonders sometimes, and some who respond either don`t have the luxury of reflection or the capacity for it. i was about to give a knee-jerk response to a point in this article myself, but i think i`m going to reflect on this some more. let`s see how it does turn out. :) perhaps you haven`t spoken too soon. . .

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nooralain #26 I am not concerned about her motives.Thats why I said ``making this seem``. I did think that the choice of words were not judicious and would bring about the usual examples from Islam vs examples from Hinduism,rather than discussion of the issue.Glad it didn`t turn out that way, or maybe I am speaking too soon?

rahul capri: #15

i know you asked this question of farzana, but if you don`t mind my offering an opinion. . .i don`t believe that farzana is making this seem as a reply-to-the-people-who-said-islam-is-against-modernity article. she is talking about modernity in response to ashok row kavi`s letter: `LGBT communities are already under great pressure from society, even as we modernise. . . .` much of what she has written is in the context of, and in response to kavi`s letter. she does make the comparisons between hinduism vs. modernity vs. islam vs. modernity, or christianity vs. modernity but i don`t think this is a reply to shiraz`s article. afterall there is a reason she put the letter up there in the first place. . .to address the issues that kavi has raised about religion, about modernity, about lifestyle and family.
you might not agree, but i just thought i`d offer that as a thought.

#24 sri
Pedophilia- There are no consenting adults.
Incest- Has been known to introduce genetic disorders.

In fact, who are we to judge some people`s choice for alternate lifestyles. Gayism, Lesbianism, Pedophilia ( Peace be upon that ), Incest, etc, etc, are all fine examples of open mindedness.

`` If you read the Vedas, the Puranas and the Itihaasas, you’ll find that LGBT communities existed even then. There are over 10 genders of males mentioned in our sacred literature; there are more sophisticated definitions than in any other civilisation, whereas the West only had binary definitions like homosexual and heterosexual. ``


True. In fact all these progressive things seem to have happened in all religions.

For example, prophet Mohammed himself followed Pedophilia by marrying and spending his first night with a minor girl.

So let`s all abondon all this fighting and make laws in our societies in support of ``progressive`` policies.

arjun,

queer eye for the straight guy dekh kar tum bhi palaT gaye??!!

sorry. i couldn`t resist that either. :)

kurasach

``I think these shiv saniks types are against gays because they feel more manly when they bash gays.....they are against lesbians because they are afraid their wives might find out about this ``new thing`` and actually start enjoying something they can`t provide. ``

Shivsainiks are no such a thing, they are not stupid either. They are very savy politicians, and see an easy opportunity to score political points. Given the soft state of law-and order situation, its cheap politics. What shivsena actually addresses is the lower-middle class voters anger against upper-crust (modern/western?) folks.

Shivsainiks have little issue with the poor Hijra plying his/her trade late night at local commuter train stops.

I am not a fan of Shivsena politics, but I think I understand it very well, and wanted to clarify.

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``In fact, the major contribution of alternate sexuality is that it has changed the way we look at families.`` In my opinion there are a lot of assumptions in this paragraph.Though, i agree that when gays are talking about rights to marriage, they are missing the point.Hang out with some till you want to,and then stop hanging out when things dont work out.It would be good if our society would be that lenient towards heterosexuals too :-)
``The sad fallout of this is that young boys, who probably do not know which way they swing, are initiated, as also eunuchs who, of course, do not have a choice. ``
I did not get this line.

#10 jang .you are right.
``We have had major discussions about how Islam is against modernity....``
Farzana,Why are you making this seem as a reply-to-the-people-who-said-Islam-is-against-modernity article? The criticism of Hindu culture could have stood on its own.Now, about hindu culture vs modernity.RSS BJP are not Hinduism.As Ashok Row Kavi has pointed out,there is no religious Hindu scripture that says that homosexuality is taboo.And even if it were,Hindus are not so keen on their religious scriptures.
Yes,Shiv Sainiks BJP are pretenders to the sole claim of raising the flag of Hinduism, and they have to be stopped in their ranks when they do stupid things.The issue is not of Hindu Culture vs modernity,but the issue is of a party using some arbitrary interpretation of Hindu culture for inciting hatred.
And there is a difference.The media all over the country has been quick to report the hooliganism of the youth parties(even NSUI has done that ) .Further,Since there is not much basis of their claim, they dont tend to garner as much support as they would like to and the fanaticism does not rise to unmanageable levels.

There were times when I used to think … technically understandable that men are with other men as women cannot offer homosexual men what they do with each other … not at least fully and in non-artificial manner … but for what a woman needs another woman to get satisfied. Most men are capable, willing and probably pleased to replicate the all the services a lesbian has to offer another lesbian.

Then with a whit of good luck I came across a pure lesbian, very attractive young lady who answered most of my questions about the phenomenon “homosexuality”.

As many women complain that most men are unaware of or have a weird tendency to forget quite often that sex is something that resides AS MUCH between two ears as it is between two legs. For some women it is simply unthinkable to be touched, fondled, kissed, caressed by a man as it is unimaginable for many men to be with another man in bed.

Yes practically a man can replace a woman but definitely NOT emotionally and psychologically. Some women, for that matter some men too, simply don’t get excited by opposite sex.

Nowadays there are even some biological explanations (though yet to be fully proved or refuted) that at least some of homosexuals are born faggots. They are programmed by nature to be gay. They found certain slight but specific differences in the brains of some gays.

Interestingly, many men severely dislike homosexuality among males but get extremely aroused because of female homosexuality. How do we explain this disparity?
Similarly, to many (male) “liberals” it is unacceptable that their wives/girlfriends cheat them with another male, but acceptable, if not recommendable to be with another woman. Probably, they don’t consider women as their rival.

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#10

i think that that particular paragraph will raise many of the questions as well. i`m trying to dig deeper than what is stated myself not just because of the modernity issue, but because there seems to be an absolutist statement there, and as simply as farzana has expressed it, i`m having trouble grasping it.

jang, if boy-love or homosexuality is a north-western import, can you shed some light on the carvings above certain temples that portray homosexual acts? there are temples in india that have such carvings, do they not? i know it`s different from scriptures, but i`m interested in knowing.

dullabhatti #6

alternatively, yes. but that is already a given is it not?! :) and while i`m here, kyoon becharay ko sata rahe ho?!

kaurasach#7 >Currently, I am doing research on why men dig two women (or more) making out. I will post my findings soon. <<<

subhanallah...practical research kar rahe O?:-)

lao hun excite hoan te vi pabandi laggegi?

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``There is rarely any talk about Christianity vs. modernity or Hinduism vs. modernity. But if we wish to take this recent example, we will realise that Hindu culture is completely insensitive to anything close to modernity. At every point in time, modernity ought to include sensitisation towards marginalised groups. ``

My guess is most posts will address this paragraph (well, except saminashah will have lots of posts about rest of the article, which most folks will ignore).

I just dont understand what modernity has to to do with sensitisation towards marginalised groups. I dont see the obvious, so author, pls make the connection.

I also disagree that ``hindu`` scriptures have a benevolent treatment of homsexuality (as the letter says). My readings tell me that the scriptures totally ignore homosexuality. Nothing against, nothing for. No boy-love either..this is a north-western import.

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Few days ago I met this desi couple...The girl was young, radiant, breathtakingly beautiful and the guy was a a 40 year old jheenger, no hair on head, self absorbed in some stupid thing he does at work, bad hyegine and very feminine pasture. I was like may be she would have been better off being lesbian instead.

I think these shiv saniks types are against gays because they feel more manly when they bash gays.....they are against lesbians because they are afraid their wives might find out about this ``new thing`` and actually start enjoying something they can`t provide.

People like stuka and me although against homosexual reltionships of any airra gaira nathoo khaira(artists, philosphers, scientists and professors are allowed), are excited by the erotic value of lesbianism.

#3, alternatively he could have signed off his post as Stuka - the republican play boy.:-)

thank you for clarifying that for us. :)

...erm, my disapproval of the Shiv Sena`s acts should not be misconstrued as approval of homosexual relationships.

``Why do two young women, hot for each other, make a bunch of men get all excited? ``

It excites me as well; but in a different sort of way. It is funny that Shiv Sena people are rampaging about lesbianism. What do they think of incest?? After all, rumour has it that Balasheb sleeps with his own daughter in law, Smita Thackeray.