Lesbians vs. Gays vs. Hinduism vs. Modernity?
Farzana Versey June 21, 2004
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#211 Posted by discoverer on September 2, 2005 11:41:14 am
okay this is where it all started, india and it heritage are really effecting neigbor uring countries
#210 Posted by harimau on June 30, 2004 3:12:39 pm
Ref Sangilikaruppan #209
[I haven`t expressed any ``concern`` for the ``criminal tribes.`` You must be confusing me with dost-mittarji. If you spent half the time you`re spending on guessing the caste origins of people you don`t know, on getting some medical help, you may have some hope of gaining sanity...]
If you haven`t expressed any concerns for the criminal tribes of India, that would only be because the criminals are in power there now and you feel safe.
One longs for the days of yore when mobility between castes was possible. You would then definitely be assigned the caste of professional thieves based on your criminal activities and accomplishments so far. The act of stealing the professional education seat reserved for Dalits stands out as the first step in your criminal career.
[I haven`t expressed any ``concern`` for the ``criminal tribes.`` You must be confusing me with dost-mittarji. If you spent half the time you`re spending on guessing the caste origins of people you don`t know, on getting some medical help, you may have some hope of gaining sanity...]
If you haven`t expressed any concerns for the criminal tribes of India, that would only be because the criminals are in power there now and you feel safe.
One longs for the days of yore when mobility between castes was possible. You would then definitely be assigned the caste of professional thieves based on your criminal activities and accomplishments so far. The act of stealing the professional education seat reserved for Dalits stands out as the first step in your criminal career.
#209 Posted by soysauce on June 30, 2004 8:48:26 am
#208
Your effort to hang yourself with your pooNool (sacred thread) is duly noted. I haven`t expressed any ``concern`` for the ``criminal tribes.`` You must be confusing me with dost-mittarji. If you spent half the time you`re spending on guessing the caste origins of people you don`t know, on getting some medical help, you may have some hope of gaining sanity...
Your effort to hang yourself with your pooNool (sacred thread) is duly noted. I haven`t expressed any ``concern`` for the ``criminal tribes.`` You must be confusing me with dost-mittarji. If you spent half the time you`re spending on guessing the caste origins of people you don`t know, on getting some medical help, you may have some hope of gaining sanity...
#208 Posted by harimau on June 30, 2004 7:43:11 am
Ref dost-mittar #207
You must understand that Sangilikaruppan`s (aka Soysauce) concern about profiling or for the criminal tribes of India has no altruistic basis but is rooted in self-interest.
After all, he is likely a member of the Kallar caste (caste of professional thieves) of Tamil Nadu. To hide this, he calls himself a Marava, a Thevar or as belonging to the Mukkulatthor caste but a thief is a thief. Naturally, he is concerned about profiling for he is likely to pop up as the criminal element of society.
You must understand that Sangilikaruppan`s (aka Soysauce) concern about profiling or for the criminal tribes of India has no altruistic basis but is rooted in self-interest.
After all, he is likely a member of the Kallar caste (caste of professional thieves) of Tamil Nadu. To hide this, he calls himself a Marava, a Thevar or as belonging to the Mukkulatthor caste but a thief is a thief. Naturally, he is concerned about profiling for he is likely to pop up as the criminal element of society.
#207 Posted by dost_mittar on June 30, 2004 4:06:14 am
soysauce:
I am not sure that those people were making attempts in the 10 years prior to 9/11 with the same vigour - Bush`s `war on terrorism` hadn`t yet started. As far `criminal tribes`, I had said that the practice was continued even after the partition. Sometimes back, I read about the `criminal tribes` creating problems in the Noida area near Delhi.
I do not like being profiled. Nobody does (unless it is in a positive way, such as bengalis are intellectuals or south indians are geniuses in maths!). But I am willing to put up with the inconvenience as long as my personal ``costs`` do not outweigh societal benefits.
I am not sure that those people were making attempts in the 10 years prior to 9/11 with the same vigour - Bush`s `war on terrorism` hadn`t yet started. As far `criminal tribes`, I had said that the practice was continued even after the partition. Sometimes back, I read about the `criminal tribes` creating problems in the Noida area near Delhi.
I do not like being profiled. Nobody does (unless it is in a positive way, such as bengalis are intellectuals or south indians are geniuses in maths!). But I am willing to put up with the inconvenience as long as my personal ``costs`` do not outweigh societal benefits.
#206 Posted by soysauce on June 29, 2004 9:27:51 pm
#205
dost-mittarji, it`s early yet to tell if profiling is working in the US. Not profiling also worked for almost 10 years. This line of argument therefore is specious.
You seem to be saying that just because we as individuals or groups stereotype, it`s OK for government to do the same. I disagree.
Finally, i`m confused as to why you are accusing ``bleeding-heart liberals`` of not condemning something that happened during the Raj. Are you expecting these liberals to take a stand on everything that happened in history? Sounds like something the khaki shorts would be demanding, not a paki-hugging punjabi like you.
dost-mittarji, it`s early yet to tell if profiling is working in the US. Not profiling also worked for almost 10 years. This line of argument therefore is specious.
You seem to be saying that just because we as individuals or groups stereotype, it`s OK for government to do the same. I disagree.
Finally, i`m confused as to why you are accusing ``bleeding-heart liberals`` of not condemning something that happened during the Raj. Are you expecting these liberals to take a stand on everything that happened in history? Sounds like something the khaki shorts would be demanding, not a paki-hugging punjabi like you.
#205 Posted by dost_mittar on June 29, 2004 2:38:15 pm
soysauce:
I was talking about the statistical basis of profiling, which is different from something based on prejudice. It is essential when it is impractical to suspect each and every person about whom you do not have any information and subject them to the same screening. And it appears to be working. Since 9/11 when the profiling started, there has not been any case of terrorism in North America; I cannot believe that people who want to harm the US are not trying to get in; it has to be due in part to the profiling used to screen people. The key thing is that even after profiling, the overwhelming majority of muslims are not denied admission into the profiling countries. We all do mental profiling; for a long time people wouldn`t rent their houses to Panjabis in Delhi, even Panjabis. I find that offensive, because people were not merely suspecting panjabis but even assuming them to be a troublemaker. But there was good reason for people to suspect panjabis, because there was empirical evidence of a high correlation between panjabi tenants and defaults.
The `criminal tribes` were a legacy of the British Raj; the police classified many tribes as criminals; I think that the practice was continued in India even after the British left.
I was talking about the statistical basis of profiling, which is different from something based on prejudice. It is essential when it is impractical to suspect each and every person about whom you do not have any information and subject them to the same screening. And it appears to be working. Since 9/11 when the profiling started, there has not been any case of terrorism in North America; I cannot believe that people who want to harm the US are not trying to get in; it has to be due in part to the profiling used to screen people. The key thing is that even after profiling, the overwhelming majority of muslims are not denied admission into the profiling countries. We all do mental profiling; for a long time people wouldn`t rent their houses to Panjabis in Delhi, even Panjabis. I find that offensive, because people were not merely suspecting panjabis but even assuming them to be a troublemaker. But there was good reason for people to suspect panjabis, because there was empirical evidence of a high correlation between panjabi tenants and defaults.
The `criminal tribes` were a legacy of the British Raj; the police classified many tribes as criminals; I think that the practice was continued in India even after the British left.
#204 Posted by soysauce on June 29, 2004 1:16:40 pm
#194
Being a statistician by trade, I fully understand the reasons for profiling and prejudice is not the only one. Inspectors who are looking for a potential target have to work on a limited information model; the only basis for developing a `maximum likelihood model` is from past empirical data, which is prejoratively known as `profiling`. But I draw the difference between suspicion and accusation; while I understand an inspector`s reason for suspecting me I would find it unacceptable if, after questioning, I were stopped from admission on the basis of my place of birth, religion and a pakistani visa.
Dost-mittarji, are you saying there are incidences of bearded men and veiled women doing harm to indians in statistically sufficient numbers that profiling them would be warranted? I don`t think even the brits would claim that people fitting these profiles have done them any harm. Bringing in statistical arguments to buttress a practice based on prejudice is like putting lip stick on a pig and calling it a lady...
Profiling, referred to pejoratively, is simply another name for prejudice. That prejudice is not based on statistics but on politics and individual beliefs. Blacks are profiled extensively in the US and the condition has come to be called ``Driving While Black.`` Depending on how you cite the statistics (Number of blacks cited for an infraction as a percentage of their total number in the population or total number pulled over) the practice is either derided or praised. Here`s a case of statistics serving the purpose of its practitioner and not at all objective.
I didn`t get your reference to ``criminal tribes``. Are you saying you have some statistical proof that there are such?
Being a statistician by trade, I fully understand the reasons for profiling and prejudice is not the only one. Inspectors who are looking for a potential target have to work on a limited information model; the only basis for developing a `maximum likelihood model` is from past empirical data, which is prejoratively known as `profiling`. But I draw the difference between suspicion and accusation; while I understand an inspector`s reason for suspecting me I would find it unacceptable if, after questioning, I were stopped from admission on the basis of my place of birth, religion and a pakistani visa.
Dost-mittarji, are you saying there are incidences of bearded men and veiled women doing harm to indians in statistically sufficient numbers that profiling them would be warranted? I don`t think even the brits would claim that people fitting these profiles have done them any harm. Bringing in statistical arguments to buttress a practice based on prejudice is like putting lip stick on a pig and calling it a lady...
Profiling, referred to pejoratively, is simply another name for prejudice. That prejudice is not based on statistics but on politics and individual beliefs. Blacks are profiled extensively in the US and the condition has come to be called ``Driving While Black.`` Depending on how you cite the statistics (Number of blacks cited for an infraction as a percentage of their total number in the population or total number pulled over) the practice is either derided or praised. Here`s a case of statistics serving the purpose of its practitioner and not at all objective.
I didn`t get your reference to ``criminal tribes``. Are you saying you have some statistical proof that there are such?
#203 Posted by ankit on June 29, 2004 1:16:40 pm
14 arrested for hoisting Pak flag in Karnataka
Our pakistani friends here will be happy to see this.
http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=33194
Press Trust of India
Posted online: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 at 1504 hours IST
Davanagere (Karnataka), June 29: Police have arrested 14 people for allegedly hoisting a Pakistani flag at a place of worship at Chinur village in the district.
Police said all the detainees have been remanded to judicial custody till July 9 by a court here.
The arrests were made on Monday after protestors gathered outside the police station following the flag hoisting incident and demanded immediate action.
Senior police officials visited the place and ensured that the flag was removed.
Additional police forces from Davangere were sent to Chinur, where the situation is normal.
Our pakistani friends here will be happy to see this.
http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=33194
Press Trust of India
Posted online: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 at 1504 hours IST
Davanagere (Karnataka), June 29: Police have arrested 14 people for allegedly hoisting a Pakistani flag at a place of worship at Chinur village in the district.
Police said all the detainees have been remanded to judicial custody till July 9 by a court here.
The arrests were made on Monday after protestors gathered outside the police station following the flag hoisting incident and demanded immediate action.
Senior police officials visited the place and ensured that the flag was removed.
Additional police forces from Davangere were sent to Chinur, where the situation is normal.
#202 Posted by Ralph on June 29, 2004 9:05:58 am
Why profiling of Muslims is a must.
The fact is that Muslims are the greatest and most comprehensive official profilers on the planet. Whether or not you profile Muslims, Muslim states and groups profile you as surely as there is night after day.
Porfiling has always been considered a natural and acceptable practice. People don`t ask Islamic states to become non Islamic because there is nothing unusual or wrong about profiling people based on religion. Three turks hostages were released today. Good for these poor souls, but they saved their lives only because Muslim groups, like Muslim states, profile people based on religion.
I could go on giving examples because profiling is as common and natural, as I said, breathing. We do not have an organization of Christian countries but we have an organization of Islamic countries because Muslim states profile the entire humanity. Nobody would consider the Red Cross to be a religious organization, except Muslims, who have a Red Crescent. There are no calls for creating a buddhist, sikh, hindu, or christian United Nations, but there are regular calls for creating an Islamic United Nations. Why, because non profiling is an unnatural act for them. Who has ever seen groups of Muslim liberals protest?
You are being profiled. Whether or not you profile is your decision. But if you choose to risk your life and your religious liberty, you have a right to make decisions only about yourself, not about others.
Urstruly
Taliban had every right to profile Hindus if they had evidence of some Hindus receiving funds from India to overthrow the Taliban. Profiling is not the same thing as making followers of certain religions wear particular bands. That is an Islamic issue which you need to sort out.
The fact is that Muslims are the greatest and most comprehensive official profilers on the planet. Whether or not you profile Muslims, Muslim states and groups profile you as surely as there is night after day.
Porfiling has always been considered a natural and acceptable practice. People don`t ask Islamic states to become non Islamic because there is nothing unusual or wrong about profiling people based on religion. Three turks hostages were released today. Good for these poor souls, but they saved their lives only because Muslim groups, like Muslim states, profile people based on religion.
I could go on giving examples because profiling is as common and natural, as I said, breathing. We do not have an organization of Christian countries but we have an organization of Islamic countries because Muslim states profile the entire humanity. Nobody would consider the Red Cross to be a religious organization, except Muslims, who have a Red Crescent. There are no calls for creating a buddhist, sikh, hindu, or christian United Nations, but there are regular calls for creating an Islamic United Nations. Why, because non profiling is an unnatural act for them. Who has ever seen groups of Muslim liberals protest?
You are being profiled. Whether or not you profile is your decision. But if you choose to risk your life and your religious liberty, you have a right to make decisions only about yourself, not about others.
Urstruly
Taliban had every right to profile Hindus if they had evidence of some Hindus receiving funds from India to overthrow the Taliban. Profiling is not the same thing as making followers of certain religions wear particular bands. That is an Islamic issue which you need to sort out.
#201 Posted by sri on June 29, 2004 9:05:58 am
#184 by ankit
`` A piece by Tavleen Singh
http://iecolumnists.expressindia.com/full_column.php?content_id=49831
Why we are a soft target for terrorists
On the morning that the American engineer, Paul Johnson, was beheaded by his terrorist captors in Saudi Arabia I happened to be arriving in London. At Heathrow airport, ahead of me in the immigration queue, was a Muslim family of sub-continental origin. The man wore an Islamic beard and looked as if dressed for Friday prayers. Skullcap, short pyjamas and long kurta and the three women accompanying him were so totally veiled that only their eyes showed. The orthodoxy of their attire or the beheading in Saudi Arabia must have been playing on the mind of the British immigration officer ``
What puzzles me about that muslim and his family is why did he even bother to immigrate to the west. The man is obviously obsessed with his religion/culture ( or whatever the cr@p that is ) and wants TO STICK TO HIS ROOTS. I got a better idea for these third world immigrants.... THE BEST WAY TO STICK TO YOUR ROOTS IS TO STAY BACK IN THE SEWER OF YOUR HOME COUNTRY.
#200 Posted by dost_mittar on June 29, 2004 8:52:42 am
Urstruly:
Thanks for the poem. I did not say that my children dont think I am a good man. They are my children but they are no longer `children`. They are politically conscious and we do have honest discussions about various contemporary issues. And yes, I should always try to measure up to their expectations. It`s not always easy, though, since their values (canadian) are not the same as mine (desi canadian!). I am too conservative for them and you would be a lot more conservative in their opinion than I am, except for your views about globalisation.
...and I do admit my prejudices and biases to them, which they appreciate.
Thanks for the poem. I did not say that my children dont think I am a good man. They are my children but they are no longer `children`. They are politically conscious and we do have honest discussions about various contemporary issues. And yes, I should always try to measure up to their expectations. It`s not always easy, though, since their values (canadian) are not the same as mine (desi canadian!). I am too conservative for them and you would be a lot more conservative in their opinion than I am, except for your views about globalisation.
...and I do admit my prejudices and biases to them, which they appreciate.
#199 Posted by Urstruly on June 29, 2004 8:38:51 am
dost mitter
Actually I think, it should be matter of shame for you that your children call you prejudiced. Children cannot lie. Listen to them and try to be a good man before it is too late. Here is a poem that I read the other day and I thought you might like it:
mera baap kitna tanha hay! kitna udaas hay!
mera baap!
mera baap!
mera baap!
apne baap ki izzat kar!
apne baap ke larazte qadam daikh
daikh keh yeh saya-e-sooraj gharoob ke khauf se laraz raha he
daikh yeh saya shaam ki zulmat se jhaggaR raha he
daikh aur sauch!
yeh saya kaheen tera apna to nahiN?
#198 Posted by dost_mittar on June 29, 2004 7:54:48 am
urstruly:
Religion is not the only variable in profiling; demographics, appearance, occupation, countries visited are some of the other important variables. I have been profiled and I am not a muslim nor do I have a muslim sounding name...And you dont have to be shy, my children call me prejudiced too for some of my views, and they don`t hate me!
Religion is not the only variable in profiling; demographics, appearance, occupation, countries visited are some of the other important variables. I have been profiled and I am not a muslim nor do I have a muslim sounding name...And you dont have to be shy, my children call me prejudiced too for some of my views, and they don`t hate me!
#197 Posted by harish_hyd on June 29, 2004 6:45:18 am
#193 by Ralph
Agree with you. Profiling happens all the time in our daily lives. We constantly favor or discriminate against a person based on our analysis, whether right or wrong. So just what`s wrong with the profiling of adherents of a certain religion when there are more than a fair share of them claiming to be fighting for a religious cause? I think it is better to err on the side of caution and by profiling, most countries are doing exactly that.
Harish
Agree with you. Profiling happens all the time in our daily lives. We constantly favor or discriminate against a person based on our analysis, whether right or wrong. So just what`s wrong with the profiling of adherents of a certain religion when there are more than a fair share of them claiming to be fighting for a religious cause? I think it is better to err on the side of caution and by profiling, most countries are doing exactly that.
Harish
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