Pakistan and Civil Society

Izas,

Pakisyan is like a building, the foundation is sinking, the walls are weakened by the wetness of blood, there is stench emnating from the filth of those trapped inside and what do you expect the neighbours to do with this building... well implode it to make way for another.

That is what is going on in pakistan, unfortunately a slow implosion.

#23 by mog
(Where is Pakistan on that?)

Pakistan`s civil society exists but perhaps out of sight of many. Donations and charity are still a forte from both cultural values and religious point of views. The most vibrant exists in the informal sector and people who light their own candles. The problem is that the hyperactive state leaves very little space for citizen participation. The state and social hierchies at the top are very rigid. That is why I have talked of pluralism, instrumentalism and inclusiveness. This is how citizen participation can be ensured. To me this a very modest wish list and not an out of box scenario.

Cheerios

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wajahat #17:

[To be honest with you, I was pissed off with one particular point that because we are rooted in a history of Imperialist rule, it is somehow in our genes to react to the White Man as a figure of authority. ]

How conveniently you ignore the earlier 700 years of imperialism resulting in our pride to be Muslims and remember the later 100 years of colonialism only because they were non-Muslim white europeans. Nothing I can do to change your imagination of looking at people who are comfortable living among whites instead of uneasy living with constant bashing them in private. The humor in mine and hamidm posts aside, had we both included Japanese, Koreans or Singaporeans in that list of men-of-character executives running affairs of Pakistan, your line of argument would have collapsed without any serious modification to our humorous posts...it is not whites per se but more like giving up on reforms from within...the point missed in the humor is that no matter who COAS or CJ of SCP are, their undesirable behavior would be predictable with higher degree of confidence than the desired behavior......

#1 by labyrinth1.
I appreciate your remarks. We are indeed stuck between nationalism and religion. The emphasis on religion has come from people who opposed the partition of India.
#2 by sameerJB
Yes, the modern nation state is a European phenomenon. After Hegal et al, various notions of nationalism came to for. The French nationalism, Nazism, British and Turk are but a few in this evolution. US Civil War was perhaps the watershed that gave birth to a very strong and independent civil society. With Marx we saw the rise of the Soviet civil society based on Leninism which collapsed for wrong reasons. The nation state also ushered modernity and thereafter took many diverse routes. In USA it excluded religion but retained the same in very strong values like freedom, equality and justice. Such a notion has an ingrained concept of collective security and that is why US geo strategy is always expeditionary. The European nations have not allowed it to grow beyond nationalism because it suits their mercantilism/neo imperialism. Though there is talk of euro nationalism etc, it will never acquire the same potency as the US model. Yes Bretton Woods did put up a system of financial regulation. So instead of the Gora Sahib, we have the World Bank, IMF, ADB etc looking down our throats. It has ensured that no viable economic challenge comes up from the bubble economies of South America. Hence it is these masters that have become the new Gora Sahib.
#3 by jay
Zakat or a tithe in Christianity or Judism is a religious indulgence with no links to terrorism. Much of this money ends up in Shaukat Khanum, Shalimar Trust, Anjumman e Himayat ul Islam etc. Minorities have made their contribution too like very good hospitals, universities like NED, educational institutions etc. CARITAS Pakistan is right now one of the best NGOs. Zakat does not support terrorism. Even within the local complex it is distributed to destitute.

Like it or not Pakistan is a reality and has come to stay.
#5 by nooralain
When sub nationalism, ethnicity, sectarianism and elite interest work counter to the interests of a nation state, nationalism gets diluted and breaks up into exordial forces. See what happened to USSR and Yugoslavia. In Europe, the concept of religious nationalism has lost to modernity. As for civil society, please re read my opening paragraphs. This is a subject that needs multiple readings for comprehension. Yes the danger to civil society is from the state as well as exordialism.
#8 by hamidm2
Conrats for you fortune telling. Citibank Corporate has arrived.

10 by AdamSmith
As my premise to noor indicates, it is not a contradiction. Opinions all over the world vary. As a Pakistani, I feel that its epitome should be Nationalism or Pakistaniat. A good civil society as I wrote must pass the solidity test with the state. Please re read my parts in which I tried to elucidate the state sponsored part and the society sponsored parts of civil society.

I wonder when chowk will remove your name.

#11 by Ralph
In a society starved for ideas and dynamism, writers at best can be visionaries and conscience. That is their contribution for a change. When Faiz wrote

Jo Koo e yar se nikle to koo e dar chaley

Who knew what he was predicting?

#12 by wajahat
Migrant issue relates to transplantation of cultures and colonising of self. This is the vulnerability to modernity. You will see South Asians breaking queues and rowdism in USA and UK, but you will not find such attitudes in Mandirs and Mosques.

Secondly we are not rooted in imperialist rule. We ruled the world in 5000BC, 200Bc and again from Taxila in times of Ghandhara/ Maurya. Please read my lines on the transplantation of knowledge.

Resistance to Raj precipitated from within the civil society after 1857, once the British imposed their concept of a European nation state that suited colonialism. People like Sir Syed, Qaid, Faiz, Iqbal and progressive Pakistanis did not vie for such an end state. They were soon set aside by the elites produced by the Raj and so the story goes on.

#14 by rozaiba
You have always been inspiring. But you must realise that you have a strong influence of USA on your thinking. US civil Society is at loggerheads with the Europeans. The turf war is visible in political economy terms like Globalism, trans nationalism and regionalism. Just go through the perspectives on Political Economy. If a change comes to Pakistan, it will come through the informal sector. This is where the middle and low middle class is and where philanthropy is the strongest. CitiBank Corporate will further alienate this sector, but for how long?

#18 by Romair
I have already given you my date and time on a post on Jamali. I stand by it.

Hamid Sahib

``the only model we know, understand and respect ......... so, we are quite incapable of governing ourselves and creating a civil society without the help of the white man ............. ``

Two things, I can see what you mean by the term ``White``. I am saddened however for the fate of us Muslims, where our own intellects have resigned the will to change. Where our thinkers are giving up on us, opting out for a model and governance which has done nothing for us in the past , but Divide and Rule.

All I am saying is that in full view and knowledge of the decadence and social abyss that we are in, the change has to come from within. The Revolution has to start from the inside, we dont need cosmetic revolutions, we have had far too many already and they have resulted in further complications. Most off all what we need is action from those ``intellects and Thinkers`` who mourn the most about the terrible state of the land.

I know at the end we are all Laptop warriors who are here to prove a point, but there has to be a belief in our ability to change and adopt tajdeed. To you and Romair, I will say this, There needs to be this revolution and reconstruction of the social system in the Muslim world, but whats most important is the balance that we need in moderation and religion. I wholly disagree that the Western Model should be emulated in its entirety, there is a lot to learn from the West, but we should be clear about the difference between Imposed modernity and a truly revolutionary change in the Socio-reliogious thought of the Islamic World.

Hello Ijaz,

Good reading, but I think the first thing that Pakistan has to do is to separate religion from governance. Only then can you start talking about a civil society. Otherwise, where the ideology of a State falls supine in front of a static religious ideology, then what ideology are you talking about?

Next, everybody in the State, women and minorities included and not just restricted to feudals and existing inertia levels, . . . everybody needs to have an equitable role in society. Where is Pakistan on that?

Thank you,

mog

wahajat mian,

....... you ask ``Why does a civilised Desi in the west who conforms to all the social boundaries in the West, Goes back home and conducts all the uncivilised activities there? ``

......... the obvious answer of course is that there are no ``white`` people there ......... and by white i don`t mean pigment challenged folks like michael jackson, i mean people who think like the white man who has gone through the reformation, the renaissance and the enlightenment ......... the japanese, koreans, singaporeans and chileans are white ......... the chinese and the south indians are slowly changing their complexion even though it is difficult for me to imagine a dravidian from tamilland ever being able to pass off as an aryan ......................

......................the one people who have no hope of ever becoming white are muslims in general, and the arabs in particular ........ and the reason is that they are mired in their ``glorious`` past ......... they see nothing wrong with the patriachal societies they live in and the only thing they respect is sheer brutal force ......... that`s how we were raised - in homes and societies that were ruled by characters like al-sayyid ahmad abd al-jawad and hazrat omar ............ that is the only model we know, understand and respect ......... so, we are quite incapable of governing ourselves and creating a civil society without the help of the white man .............

SameerJB #2: ``Pakistan needs a constitutional amendment that transfers power to appoint COAS and all the justices of the Supreme Court including Chief Justice - invoking membership of British Commonwealth - to Queen of England with the conditions that all appointees should be non-Pakistanis and preferably of British origin.``

hamidm #8: ``..... i second your proposal for ammendment to the constitution with a small change - all her majesty`s appointments, in addition to being from the west, should also be white``

Would it be correct to assume that you are, like I am, overjoyed about the appointment of Shaukut Aziz as Prime Minister. He is neither the Queen, nor White. But he is the next best thing. He is about as White and as Westernized as anyone can be, without being White and a subject of the Queen. And he does roam around in the same circles, and has beaten them at their own game.....

Assuming that the Queen, herself, is not going to run Pakistan. Neither will she appoint a Viceory. Shouldn`t we go with the favorites deputies of Sandy and Citibank. A CEO and institution, respectively, far more White and powerful than Britain and the Queen every will be?

sameerjb

So what you are in effect telling me is that because, and I accept that the western system is more efficient, they have the right to somehow supervise me, which hamidm, for sake of humour, pointed out. I do accept your points about the rational differences between Western and Eastern Social Setups, yet what i disagree about is the self-asumed right of the ``now civilised`` desi to look down upon their brethren in the motherland and somehow pronounce them ``uncivilised`` and therefore in need of Western Guidance and Western Principles.

To be honest with you, I was pissed off with one particular point that because we are rooted in a history of Imperialist rule, it is somehow in our genes to react to the White Man as a figure of authority. I disagree, and as a matter of sarcasm, blamed this on the south asian diaspora, of which Hamidm is a part. I know for a fact that although this secondary citizen mentality was part of the mindset of the first generation immigrants specially in UK, the second generation is quite opposite, and it never was the case in the US due to the type of professional based immigration there in the 80s.

My question to you is this, Why does a civilised Desi in the west who conforms to all the social boundaries in the West, Goes back home and conducts all the uncivilised activities there? This implies that it is the system that governs a person`s action, not genes, and hamidm`s historicizing of this particular point is wrong.

Thats all that I am contesting....

wajahat:

Your assertion of secondary existential level than the whites, of desi diaspora in the west is nonsence. hamidm and Fuzair, and me too, have been critical of the failure of desis to adopt civilized behavior and behave responsibly. You or anybody else should not take this criticism of the collective southasians wisdom and behavior as personal. I can give you here examples after examples of the failures of collective southasian wisdom and behavior, which means that either majority is directly responsible, tacitly approves, ineffective in improving or dealing with it, receptive of uncivilized behavior, lack of inner strength to deal with, indifferent to uncivilized behavior and so on, mostly due to rationality and logic taking back seat over romanticism, emotionalism, traditions and beliefs. hamidm has never suggested that whites have superior genes; instead he contends that culture and environment make them behave more responsibly. Again you can point to individual cases of stupidiity, uncivilized behavior and ineffectiveness of white individuals as well as weak points of their culture easily but it is about collective western wisdom that is more rational and logical since the enlightenment period. To make the long story short, collective western wisdom wins despite plenty of individual failures and weaknesses whereas in the case of Pakistanis or desis in general, colective wisdom often fails despite many civilized, upright, intelligent and rationally thinking individuals.

Dear Curious Fuzair

A Migrant Secondary Citizen Mindset is that which automatically assumes itself to be somehow on a lower existential level than of the Goras whose land they have the opportunity and great luck to be living in.

As far as your point about forming queues go, anyone can see that I am not trying to refute that yes we south asians have a problem in managing order amidst ourselves.

My point however was to refute the hamidm type humour about goras and genes, if you couldnt see that, it has to be my fault somehow. I wait for your excellent far right reply to this.

Very good analysis.

But the political/social advice presented is weak. Firstly, the desire for nationalism to emerge is forced- much like the state has been trying to force a sense of `pakistaniat` in all for decades. This may be wrong, but the days of `nationalism` are over in the practical sense. One can still thump chest and become inspired by `sohni dharti` and all, but everything else is rather forced for most Pakistanis as it is a banana republic.

My advice would have been that the various entities in the society- political parties, institutions etc. all be given the time and be allowed to struggle to find their own respective space without interference from anyone else.

The economic advice is better as this country has survived due to the spirit present in the informal sector.

Wajahat,

Just curious, what exactly is the ``migrant secondary citizen mindset`` and what does it have to do with an inability to form queues in an orderly fashion?

Hamidm

Lets not confuse migrant secondary citizen mindset (which i assume from your proclamation, you share) with real administration issues on mainland. Although you might feel that the Colonial experiance for the sub continent was the most efficient system of rule todate, a large majority will disagree, because where your forefathers might have inherited Lands and titles for subsurviance to the British , ours fought against the Imperialist rule.

Therefore yes we agree it is in your genes.

I liked the essay.

Everytime a Pakistani writes and does not conjure up some new defense supporting burqa, terrorism, discrimination against religious minorities, or proclaim great scientific facts embedded in Holy Quran, a giant intellectual leap occurs.

Beyond that the article adds nothing of value, and displays intellectual barrenness. Quite as expected.


M.B.Z.Isphahani # 6

Good post, studes.