Open Letter to Prime Minister Jamali

this boob of a PM has got his ass fired yesterday. good riddance.

i think in the comming days of civil war military has already begun to strenghen its trenches. civil war is now an inevitability that only god can undo. sooner or later we will have to chose sides too.

ADIEU!! A sad Day.

too late -- jo baichtay thay dawa-e dil voh dukaan apni brhaa gaye....the cowardly `LION` in the Wizard Musharraf`s land of Oz.....has met the fate he deserved....

Jamali`s Gone

He was after all working for his ``Boss``. On his departure he has done the ultimate service to his second boss Chaudry Shuj of Gujj. This is a bad bad omen and if those who still find that Mush is doing the right thing for this nation, you cudnt have a bigger clue that he nothing more than a reincarnation of Ayub Khan.

To put a Corrupt man like Shujaat at the helm is going to be one of the worst things Mush has done to pakistan. Whatever hope we had, that Mush was the man to change things is now gone. He is just one more KING in the line of KINGS who have wrecked pakistan because of their personal ideology.

Your Optimism is too late Rozaiba...

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optimism and pakistan. . .wouldn`t that be a contradiction in terms?

good luck!

Any politician who lends a hand to the occupation army of Field Marshal Musharraf is a traitor to the proud nation of Pakistan. The ONLY concern of our ploiticians should be to help end this occupation and to not aid it.

I don`t know what made jamali resign, but I can say for sure that it wasn`t his conscience. He most likely resigned because he was found guilty of being an incompetent servant to Musharraf. Field Marshal Musharraf, The Great Giver of Democracy, realized that for him to serve HIS masters in the West well, he needed to be served well. And hence it was time for Jamali to `resign` and to bring in a better servant.

Its the same game, and nothing much different will come out of this. Its just another patch on the same old sack.

But something makes me optimistic that the sack is about to be changed!

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As long as the Assembly lasts full term and elections are called on schedule, it doesn`t matter. For how long can elections be rigged?

What an entertaining day!

Jamali steps down. Why? NO ONE KNOWS!! Sure he was a joke, but what is the point of this exercise? There could never be a better `YES-MAN`! EVER!! :)

Shaukat Aziz will resign from the senate seat. It seems that what to watch out for now is WHO gets unseated from a Punjab constituency so that Shaukat Aziz can `run` from there and enter ther National Assembly as an `elected` representative and thereby be `selected` as the Prime Minister.

Another fixed election coming our way...

Which begs the question: By making all these maneauvers, do the faujiz think it`ll maintain some sense of legitmacy in the eyes of the people?

Yaay from Nawaz Sharif to Chory Shujaat...boy have we gone full circle. Hell give Junejo some credit, for someone who was also a nobody at least he took a stand. So much for Jabal...

#11

It almost unbelievable, but yes I agree with you Arjun. Indeed, it makes sense. The King at the end of the day should be the brightest most holiest character around.

This embarrasing game continues (Great timing Rozaiba).

I nominate Bijli, the Pakistani Drag Queen from New York for......


Ras

They killed one PML N MNA in Lahore today as well.

May be to get Shaukat Aziz elected ?

Rozaiba #9

PPPP patriots` Rao Sikandar Iqbal will be unseated from Okara, and will replace Khalid Maqbul as the Governor of Punjab in due course of time. I don`t know what the hoo haa is about... Musharraf has the reins of power. Administration will be carried out by Shaukat Aziz who is open minded, charismatic and presentable.

Last night chowk put up a nice article ”Police Protecting The Army”written by some Che Guevara discussing how the police is now meant to protect top brass after the latest attack on the life of Corps Commander Karachi. I myself submitted a reply to it.
In the morning that piece has been removed from there. Invalid Article ID 00003637

I am pretty sure that it was not done voluntarily. The removal must have been imposed on Chowk.

Cheers for the free word.
Long live Enlightened Moderation along with freedom of speech.
Na-Pak Fauj Zindabad.

If anyone at Chowk has saved the Article ”Police Protecting The Army” by Che Guevara which was posted at the Chockw but pulled out later, please send me a copy. Thanks
Shaheen Sehbai
Editor@SATribune.com

I condemn censorship at chowk and I want to know whether Chowk Staff is being harassed by dictator and his masters?

Ref #18, 17, 15

The article ``Police Protecting The Army`` wll be reposted as soon as the writers correct name is verified. We removed the article because Che Guevarra is not acceptable as a name for a writer. The original Che is a very well known personality and has numerous web references. The original posting was in error. Chowk apologizes for the inconvenience.

Urstruly,

Thanks. Chowk condemns censorship just as strongly.

Unflinching Idealism is not an easy goal. Even we as rational facilitators of dialogue are tested with some hard decisions. Just because we can control the flow of information does not mean that we should take positions and sides - we dont. Sometimes we are in error but we do remain prepared to learn as and when needed. Chowk will not bend to any ideology or use of force - to the best of our ability.

Chowk-Staff

Chowk Administrators/Editors:

Thanks to the Internet and of course tremendous efforts being put by dedicated souls like you, at least computer literates with working knowledge of English are able to access [officially] non-kosher information, exchange dissenting ideas and have political gup-shup without any fear, if they want to.
Sites like Chowk and SAT are harbinger to an era where it will be extremely difficult, if not impossible to dupe [well-informed] Pakistanis. No doubt, you people are waging a true jihad.
Hats off to you people.

Therefore, it would be sheer tragedy if official channels succeed in hampering free flow of information even here.
The piece, cleared by chowk staff MUST NOT be pulled down because of non-literary reasons. It would be a huge insult to all of us chowkies if theGHQ could manage to censor this venue.
The article which was apparently cleared, and posted MUST be back if it has withdrawn because of external pressure.

It should be a simple matter to find it. Look it up in your cache(temp internet files in user account) or just do a search in your computer. If your browser is NOT set to ``Empty temp internet files... on exit``, you should still have it in your cache. Unfortunately I empty my cache everyday.

Sehbai sahib, If you really wanna search some thing way back here is the URL.
www.waybackmachine.org

Ref #21, 20

Please read #19 for a clarification. The article is very much there and wil be reposted after verifying the identity of the writer.

Hey, good to know y`all!!

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Ref #24

Changing a moniker is acceptable. Choosing Che Guevarra as the moniker is the issue. This is like publishing an article under the name Mao Tse Tung - as you will agree that will cause a problem because there are millions of web references to those names.

Please note that you can also change your Chowk moniker to Arjun Ahmed Mohammed Kumar Banerjee Stein Smith (AAMKBSS) - it is fine and well within the policies. We hope that this will close this issue.

We appreciate your prompt criticism and subsequent kudos.

Back to the subject.

I am not much of an army watcher, as I think they can never do any thing right.
Off late, there have been some developments that need second look.
Mushy needs to lower his profile and needs to have a PM who can take lead in internal Pakistani affairs. Jamali was worthless in that area. Jamali was also a slight problem because of his political connections. That would have become a problem after Mushy puts on civvies. Now Mushy will have a safe PM plus somebody who has some ability in working with the bureaucracy.
The interesting developments were at the nuke talks between India and Pakistan. It seems that both countries are looking to have some sort of joint stand in international forums on nuke issues. This kind of cooperation is a welcome change for the sub continent.
I also think that Kashmir is now probably clear of Pakistani infiltrators and Indians should clear out rest of the diehards in Kashmir and move towards negotiation.
Congress is certainly showing much needed maturity in dealing with Pakistan.

chowk staff. . .

that is your reasoning?

and even if he did use the name che guevarra. . we can split hairs here but he does differ from the original che, in that he spells his name with two r`s. . .the cuban revolutionary was che guevara.

and why was this not noticed before? i think you would spare the author the embarrassment and yourselves the ridicule (i`m being kind here) of posting the article with that moniker in the first place? but since you have apologized for the inconvenience, perhaps you might pay closer attention in future? it is so inconvenient to be so inconvenient afterall.

There are two aspects of Jamali losing his power.

The bad aspect is that he shouldn`t have been appointed in the first place. So the blame goes to the people who appointed such a dimwit to this position.

The good part is that it is about time that waderas and feudals and tribals stopped becoming Prime Ministers. They have nothing to do with democracy. The only reason they get elected is because they own their whole constituencies. They have no track record of any accomplishment, at any level, in their lives. The Amin Fahims and Jamalis etc. wouldn`t get elected dogcatcher in a decent democracy. Most people on Chowk are more professionaly qualified than these guys.....

I had suggested in my replies, when Jamali was being apointed PM, that Shaukut Aziz should be appointed PM, and not Jamali, nor any other landowner. Better late than never. Shaukut Aziz is the perfect person for the position. A middle to uppermiddle -class urbanite, who has made it to the top of the international levels, on his own merit. He has delivered at the finance ministry also. This should help with respect to the maulvi threat and hadood laws etc., also. Feudals and tribals live for hadood laws and karo-karis, and suppression of women.

Pakistan must be led by progressive, educated, self-made urbanites. These are the kinds of people who will bring Pakistan in line with the internatinonal community. They will initiate the end of feudal-supporting honor kilings etc. They are not ashamed to let their wives walk shoulder to shoulder with them. Unlike the Jamalis and Amin Fahims, whose wives are locked up in warehouses.

Now PPP is the only party left that has an out and out feudal leadership. If it can get rid of its Makhdooms and Bhuttos, and let its Aitezaz Ahsans come to the top, it will win landslides. I have no doubt about that.

An urbanite President with an urbanite Prime Minister, neither living in the 15th century is a good combination. Those of us, who think Pakistan has been a dictatorship, whether elections are held or not held, will be happy with it. Now the only hitch is that Musharraf should take off his uniform. Which hopefully he will in six months.

Those who have no issues with political parties having lifetime feudal heads, nor with Shariah Bill appointed amir-ul-momineens, will cry for the loss of another feudal leader.

It will good for peace with India also. India has a finance minister as a PM. And so will Pakistan. Neither has a constituency in the country. Neither is bound to strong political careers as their profession. They both view economy as the main driving force for peace and prosperity.

Dair aaye darust aayyee. I feel sorry for Jamali, and the process of he has gone through. But he shouldn`t have taken the job, he was unqualified to begin with. Shaukut Aziz will make a very good PM.

The economy is finally getting center-stage in South Asia. Is this the first step towards the end of feudal Prime Ministers in Pakistan. I really hope so.............

Once you agree to play the role of a pawn, you are dispensible. Jamali`s exit and Shujaat entry did not excite me because they were as good as nothing. Musharraf and his coaterie in GHQ have been taking all the major decisions during celebrations after awarding themselves new plots of land for their services to the nation by drying up the national resources and capturing Islamabad without any sacrifice. They are getting everything they want and people have started giving them what they deserve. So they are advised to not wear uniform in the public and possibly dont get soldier haircut too. jamali? who?

Chowk Staff
Thanks a lot for the clarification.
Now back to the subject

Normally, I submit my reply after Romair, this time I am doing it pre-emptively - just for the sake of change.

WARNING
Soon Field Marshall Romair will be here with his very non-expert opinion that will include following comments:

1. Salaries of military officers are too low as compared to their civilian counterparts
2. Genius military officers have no option but to leave and head for the Silicon Valley
3. Money makes the mare go. People [like him] will renounce their citizenship, voting right for a better future. Better = more money in absolute terms.
4. He has now more money than all of his ex-colleagues
5. Chowk is a place for rich and intelligent. Because he is one of the frequent contributor on different threads.
And same ghisi-pitti babble will go on and on …

In likelihood the solution and remedy he will offer would look like
Home-take salary of the PM must be increased before he leaves everything and move back to his village for fishing

To his detractors he would say
According to the surveys he has read [and saved on his PC] Musharraf is liked by 50.9945% of Pakistanis. Anyone criticizing Musharraf must first come up with a survey that shows that people are fed up with the military.

Mera khial hai main abb bas karta hoon …
over to FM

Forgot one thing....

I hope the first step Shaukut Aziz takes is to get rid of Awais Leghari as the Minster of S&T. Another scion of another famous feudal clan in Pakistan.

Awais Leghari recently graduated from college, with a degree in political science (or in basketweaving or something very scientific like that). He ran some unknown IT compnay briefly. And is now the head of the whole Science and Tech. of Pakistan. He seriously couldn`t get a job as an intern in any IT company in North America (or in Pakistan for that matter). I wouldn`t hire anyone with his qualifications. Yet he heads the ministry, in a field which is driving the whole world. My friends in the Pakistani IT industry thought it was an April fool`s type joke, when they heard he had been appointed to head this ministry.

I am sure he is a decent person, like Jamali. And, of course, he is, ``democratically`` elected (kind of hard for someone else to get elected from an area, which is owned by his dad). But what the hell does he know about S&T. About as much as his predecessor S&T miniseter, Abida Hussain (another stud-farm owning feudal). did. She had a high school diploma in interior decorating(?) and was heading Pakistan`s S&T ministry. She just recently cleared her BA exams. But she was, ``democratically`` elected also. Perhaps because her dad owned half of Jhang. This time she was defeated by her nephew.

Then people ask, why Pakistan lags so far behind the rest of the world in IT and S&T.

Bring back Ata-ur-Rahman, or appoint Hoodbhoy or anyone else. At least someone, who has attended a few science courses. Any of the Chowk associates are more qualitifed than Leghari.

Put technocrats, with international credibility, in positions of power, and then see how quickly Pakistan progresses..............

HP:

``Congress is certainly showing much needed maturity in dealing with Pakistan. ``

Can I infer from your comment that Congress is showing MORE maturity then BJP in dealing with Pakistan? If so, why? Also, what is your opinion about the initial missteps by Natwar Singh?

Romair # 31

(Awais Leghari recently graduated from college,.... is now the head of the whole Science and Tech. of Pakistan. He seriously couldn`t get a job as an intern in any IT company in North America (or in Pakistan for that matter)

Nothing to do with Awais. But a Minister has to be a politician - not MCSE, Diploma or degrees holder in his field. Lots of technocrats are under him to do that bit. He is elected & young. I find that rather encouraging.

Could Laloo Prashad get an internship in a railway Company?

NHK

Romair, impulsiveness is not always correct. All of a sudden you have a heartache for Ata and Hoodbouy. Being actually involved in professional education, I have a true measure of the contributions of both.

Being that death an inevitable end will come when it comes. The issue that Jamali is no more is not important. The issue is experimentation with demcracy and dispensibility of institutions. I feel the next victim will be the wise man who suggested that the army should do such hobnobbing with the politicians. He must be quite uncomfortable in Lahore.

Why reinvent a wheel when one comes up with weird things like everything but a wheel.

This is reminding me of the musical chairs that were played in the late 50s.

We are an engine in full throttle with the gears in neutral.

Shaukat would perform better in select areas. Take my word, Pakistan`s dependency would increase. Note the date and time. 27 june 9:26 AM

A very sad person

Bring back Benazir Bhutto, deposed queen in distress, in my earnest and humble opinion.

At least she used to look good.

More than that, she can then proceed to find an economist or banker or IMF or World bank type and place him/her in power, while controlling the strings from behind.

Turban will help.

Humpty-Dumpty Jamali was doing OK - just sailing along - at least a peg in the system as per the Constitution.

Why unceremoniously get him out - Choudhry`s are a bigger calamity - why not let the system run by the book - why no patience.

Jamali was talking about Musarraf taking off his uniform a bit too often in Media - and Musharraf is working out some long term strategy to hang on - but he is mistaken.

The Chaudhries are too foxy - and could take him along when they go.

Not good at all.

Presently, the only two political entities in Parliament that can not be bought, ignored or brushed aside by the Army are the MQM & MMA.

Nazarhayatkhan #33,

I wholeheartedly disagree. The minister of S&T has to be able to make decisions. It is not upto his staff to make decisions for him, their job is to provide him with options, the ultimate choices should be his. If he does not know anything about S&T then he is like an 18 year old boy on an island full of lesbians; useless and frustrated. I don`t support this only for the S&T ministry, I believe the law minister should be a brilliant lawyer or former judge, the foreign minister should be a career diplomat, the finance minister should be an acclaimed economist (Shaukat Aziz is a case in point, it`s the same Pakistan, it`s the same bureaucrats under him, why is Pakistan performing better economically under him?) etc.

For example, under Dr. Ata-ur-Rahman (a renowned researcher in chemistry), the government launched highly aggressive measures to train and attract research manpower. If all goes according to plan, Pakistan should be able to feel the difference in the next 5 years, hopefully our research output will start to increase. Put a BA pass pimply-faced kid incharge of the ministry of S&T, who doesn`t know shit from swiss cheese, and you have the recipe for disaster par excellence.

Why you chose to draw parallels with Laloo`s knowledge of railways is simply beyond me. You make two very thin assumptions when you advance that argument:
1) India can do no wrong (or at the very least, its political system can`t)
2) Laloo is beneficial to the Indian railways as its helmsman

Also you claim, rather grandiosely and with no substantiating arguments, that a minister has to be politician and not ``a diploma or degree holder in his field``. I would certainly love to hear your supporting arguments in this favor.

Irfan.

PS: If you are going to use a system as a baseline, why not try the US instead of India, although I`m sure many people would disagree, but on the whole I feel justified in saying that the US is-for the moment-doing better than India. All secretaries in the US Administrations are usually highly educated and regarded professionals in their fields (politician or not doesn`t really matter).

NHK,

Perhaps you haven`t been following the Pakistani politics... but MQM is in the Government supporting every decision that Musharraf takes... and MMA, that party which owes its existence to the Army`s meddling, is already the King`s loyal opposition. MMA not being bought or ignored is the joke of the century... these Mullahs, these enemies of Pakistan.. have been bought and sold on the international market to destabilize Pakistan for a very long time...

Read Charlie Wilson`s War ... Jamaat-e-Islami, and other religious parties were coopted by the Americans ... the educational system that we don`t tire complaining about was formulated in University of Nebraska.... The roots of this retrograde deobandi and fundamentalist Islam in Pakistan are red blue and white.


These Mullah bast@rds ... the enemies of this country right from the start when they were hand in glove with the Indian National Congress, not out of some ideological similarity (what similarity could they have with the secular congress) but simply their greed and lust for control over the muslim community, these conservative doctors of reaction ... bigoted fanatics.... are the biggest sell outs in this country....

their grand daddy was Maudoodi... who wrote `Ishtrakiat and Islam`... and America bought and published millions .... of its copies... making this narrowminded fanatic a very rich mullah... their chachu was Mufti Mahmood... that B@stard who tried to destabilize Pakistan in the name of Nizam-e-Mustafa, allied with the very suspicious Khan family and the NAP who had been declaring themselves secular but chose to bring down the democratic nationalist government of Bhutto hand in glove with the Mullahs...

and the same Mufti mahmood seered Maulana Fazlur Rahman... another CRIME against Humanity.... the famous `Mullah Diesel` who is more famous for his illegitimate diesel permits in exchange for political support to the ruling party...

These B@Stard mullahs ... who perpetuated ZiaulHaq`s regime... but today are opposed only in name to Musharraf... the same B@stard Mullahs who helped the Government pass the LFO... you think these Mullahs can`t be bought... they can be bought and sold for much less than they have been given. They will probably sell their daughters for even less....


-YLH

Leave it to shaheen sebhai and Urstruly to try and make capital out of a bad situation. The chowk staff is right in not printing an article written under the name of a popular personality like Che... We at Chowk are impatient people... including me... we always jump to the conclusion that there is some grand conspiracy that the chowk staff is involved in. Sometimes we assume that they are working for RAW, sometimes ISI, and at other times the CIA...

Let us drop this stupidity.

This talk of how Shujaat will be better for Pakistan, and that he is a self-made ``urbanite`` (whatever that means) is a good omen, reminds me of the late 80s. That was the time when a young Harvard / Oxford graduate woman of good looks became the first elected Prime Minister in the Muslim world. There was talk of how she would turn around the wretched country, how her western education will suddenly prop up the decaying Pakistani society etc etc. There was an excitement in the air.

Merely a decade later, that woman is in exile on charges of extreme corruption, and for siphoning money and historic relics for her Surray Palace.

The more things change, the more they stay the same. For 57 years, we have continued t o use a failed methodology to obtain the same failed results.

Romair
I totally agree with you. But i would like to add two more names, Humanyon Akhtar and Ijaz-ul-Haq. They all fall in the same category, a club of mediocores who have no credentials to lead these ministries.
Without any legitimate business, these people have millions of dollars in their account, and their only goal in life is to become the prime minister from the back door.
Listen these guys when they talk about public issues, you be laughing.
I am sure there are many great people in pakistan who are more qualified and competent than these yuppies.

Regards.

Romair # 31 - I agree with NHK regarding Awais Laghari`s qualifications for minister of S&T. Incidentally him and I went to the same university in upstate New York. I found him to be very ``un-wadera`` like and rather down to earth. He might be inexperienced in IT, but has the right atitude to learn the ropes and perhaps make some bold decisions.

#32 by stuka

“Can I infer from your comment that Congress is showing MORE maturity then BJP in dealing with Pakistan? If so, why? Also, what is your opinion about the initial missteps by Natwar Singh?”

Doublespeak! Not from me. I am a straight shooter.

Congress and BJP cater to two different constituencies and Congress is far more comfortable in dealing w/Pakistan as its support is in groups that are not dogmatically averse to working with Pakistan. Plus, it has more experience in finding some workable solutions with Pakistan after having years of give and take with the Pakistani army and the Bureaucracy. BJP certainly lacked that insight.

History is full of missteps between Pakistan and India- One more would not hurt that much. The success is in finding channels to quickly recover from the missteps. That happened this time around.

The dream of a civilian dominated society in Pakistan now depends so heavily on India and the US that any maturity Indians can show would be helpful. The right wing in India and Pakistan are different. In Pakistan the right wing is militaristic and the military political. The rhetorical exchanges with India help the rightist in Pakistan, and India can eliminate it w/o jeopardizing its national interests. The US is putting enough pressure on Pakistan to tone down rhetoric to not allow the rightwing to hide behind anti-Indianism.
By continually showing maturity, India can certainly help Pakistan move towards civilian rule in future.

malik99 -- Romair --
what we don`t know is that ` Awais Laghari` was ( don`t knwo about now) was involved in car smuggling gang and was once caught `red handed` in Bibi`s period where bibi asked him and his father that ` Bhai Saab, bacha acha hai parha likha hai why don`t you ask him to go into politics instead` --
a fact which is often ignored... or people don`t know about!

........ wha .... what happened ? ............. what`s all this noise about? .... why is manto so upset? ............. mangoes?........ i know, i know ........nobody likes sindhris - we have to wait for tha dosehri season .......... no, it is not the mangoes?......... mutton is over 200 a kilo and chicken went to 75 and it costs 5000 a month to keep one air conditioner running?.......... who cares, the poor can eat daal for all we care and, allah kay fazal say, we have four split units humming day and night ..........who is this awais leghari guy and what`s he doing running s&t? ........ he went to rochester, that is a pretty hard s&t school so he must have learnt something, even though the last time i went to dg khan i didn`t see any evidence of s&t.............

............. so it is the usual suspects playing musical chairs again - this time they are trying to make sure shaukat aziz gets to win when the army band stops playing and the military estate services show up to take away the chairs ................

............. this is a non-event ............. a real sleeper, if you ask me ..........zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Mantolives,
I agree.

Cheerios

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There are certain contradictions need to be pointed out.
First of all I would like to ask gentlemen criticizing ministers x, y & z for heading ministries without formal competence that what formal degrees Mr. Musharraf have to lead the country of 140 million?

What job would a Pakistani general of infantry, armour or artillery would get in any multi-national on the grounds of his academic accomplishments? At the most a head watchman with few guards under his supervision.

Mohammad Ali Jinnah, to whom most of our fellow countrymen consider an ultimate politician and statesman, was just a barrister- technically undergraduate.
Only a fool would argue about the importance of formal education but in politics it is not (and should not) be the foremost requirement.

We don’t have a political science professor sitting in the Oval office.
Lula of Brazil is a former street vendor.
His minister for environment (a young lady) has not even to college.
Former Polish president was an electrician. I can go on and on.
Why go so far.
Mr. Romair has more than 2000 replies on this forum – without having any degree in essay writing.

There is a huge difference between popular politics and meritocracy or technocracy.
On the contrary, sometimes an outsider with no pre-hand biases is in a far better position to bring about deeper changes.

Please, note what I am writing is also AT THE MOST just another aspect of the much larger story. There are very few, if any hard and fast rules and universal truths in this imperfect world.
The only point is that normally, it is naïve to say the least, to exclude one angle for the other and/or come up with sweeping observations.
All the best
Baba Jee

Hoping against hopes,

Now the pakistanis are over the moon, they have an urbane president and a similar PM. So what, it has all happ[ened before. The legislation against the ahmadias was passed by bhutto, the real white man of pak politics.
Look at the k for kafir education material, they are all prepared by the educated of pakistan, the civil servants in the pak education department, the so called grade 20 types of the pak beaurocracy.

Look at mushy the great general with the pickenese dogs, a harm for the muslims. he is talking about discussions on honour killings, if that is what all his military training has done to him, there is absolutely no hope for pakistan.
It has been proven time and time again, the jihadisation of pakistan is not driven by the illiterates of pakistan, it is driven by the educated urstrulies of pakistan. The military dictatirship is supported by the educated romairs of pakistan.

The new Pm will only closthe th ejihadic values in safistry, like the works of romair and urstruly. What will eventually drive the policies are what the pakistansi heve learned in their childhood, the k for kafir education.

Since 1947, the change in pakistan had been only in one direction, whether military or civil the rulers were, in the direction of increasing jihadisation of pakistan.

There is too much bravo-sierra and too much hand wringing and chest beating going on here. :)

This a mid-term course correction and it should have happened much sooner. Jamali was removed, because he did not seem as the candidate capable of ensuring PML-Q`s victory in the 2007 elections. Jamali was tainted, because he was a little too out spoken, lately, in supporting and making pro-MMA statements on Hudood Ordinances and on the issue of the Islamic verses in the textbooks. Jamali had to be ditched, since he was starting to carve a political support base for himself and that threatened the political constituency of the brothers from Gujrat. Another reason, which hammered the last nail, was that Jamali was losing visable support from PML-Q and as Musharraf was stepping aside from offering aid, Jamail was relying increasingly on MMA for political support. This was unpardonable. Jamali had to exist within the support frame of PML-Q and could not be allowed to create his own political base, with MMA acting as the foundation for such an eventuality.

The most intelligent comment on this whole situation was made by Sadna and I fully agree with her. Pakistanis should not pin their hopes on Jamali, but should be more concerned, whether the parliament exists to finish its entire term. It is time, Pakistanis move away from the politics of personality and think of the politics of institutions. In the larger scheme of things, Jamali and his successor and the successor`s successor are insignificant.

Pakistan is slowly and gradually moving towards a presidential system of government and this is simply an attempt in that direction. After Shaukat Aziz is elected, regardless of the manner, Pakistan will move towards a dyarchy of power; Musharraf dominating foreign affairs and defense (war on terror) and Aziz controlling the economy. This was the truth foretold, when Pakistan was awarded the Most Important Non-NATO ally status and the end result of this would be a quicker pace of privatization and liberalization of economic reforms in Pakistan. Aziz has no political constitutency in Pakistan and that is why he was elected as the prime minister. Aziz will be able to, due to his lack of political support, tackle issues which Jamali was unable to addess. Aziz does not have to rely on the MMA or the religious parties to shore up his support or to make exhortations to Islam in order to seek a political support mechanism. Aziz will hopefully marginalize the influence of religion in Pakistani politics.

This is a very subtle secularization of politics in Pakistan and two things will originate from this situation. One; elections would be fast forwarded to June 2006 after the next budget shows some tangible growth. Second; the 2006 elections would be an opportunity to clean the stables of the MMA elected in 2002 and end the military-mullah alliance, as the establishment makes a military-technocratic alliance in vogue of Ayub Khan. There will be a discernable shift as urban political power will eclipse rural political power and hope to seek an end of feudalism, which will allow agriculture to post healthy gains, thus buffering the overall growth ratios in Pakistan. As mentioned, Pakistan after 2006 or 2007, will emerge as a presidential form of government, where president and the prime minister, acting as a defacto vice-president, will share power. A very superficial glance at the developments will suggest that Musharraf is attempting to correct the mistake of 2002 by gradually replacing the political team that existed from October 1999 to October 2002. A certain tell-tale of this would be the formation of the new cabinet under Aziz.

The key to the future lies in the statement made by Aziz a few weeks ago. Aziz mentioned that the second generation economic reforms will implemented soon. Anyone, with a idea of what that means, will immediately know where the focus of intention will exist. It is all about ensuring that what had started in 1999 does not get derailed by a civilian setup and the end result of that process is a presidential system of government. The future of Pakistan till 2011 or sooner, when the term of Aziz if elected in 2006 will end, has already been decided. This means that Musharraf will have been in power for 11 years; giving him enough years to indelibly influence Pakistani politics for the next few generations.

If Pakistan is truly headed for a presidental form of system, I am really optimistic because Pakistan had no future under a parliamentary form of government. How quaint, when history repeats itelf!

Ciao

Ijaz_gul #35 ``impulsiveness is not always correct. All of a sudden you have a heartache for Ata and Hoodbouy. Being actually involved in professional education, I have a true measure of the contributions of both.``

I am surprised you find my remarks impulsive. I have been making these same remarks for ages. I didn`t just start making them. If you get a chance to go back and read my posts, you will notice that I had been saying that Shaukut Aziz (or people like him) should be finance minister, even before the coup occured. Then when the PM was going to be appointed, I had repeatedly suggested that Shaukut Aziz would be the right person. This was three years ago.

I had also stated that Shaukut Aziz, and his team would turn the economy around. Which they did. Faster than I expected. One can make arguments about six out of ten things in the economy still being bad. But it used to be ten out ten things being bad.

As for Ata and Pervez. Are you arguing that they are not good people. Even if they aren`t, wouldn`t you agree that they (or people like them) are more qualified than feudal off-springs like Leghari. I have been making this argument for ages, also. IT is a profession I do know quite a bit about. And I follow off-shore development quite closely. It requires dynamic, and qualified leadership. This cannot be provided by Abida Hussain, Leghari and Nawaz Khokhar.

I don`t know any of the individuals mentioned above. I have nothing to gain from them. However, I think individuals along those professional lines are the best people to lead Pakistan.

``The issue is experimentation with demcracy and dispensibility of institutions.``

I really fail to understand which democracy you are talking about. Where is democracy in Pakistan? I certainly haven`t seen it? Does it exist within the political parties? Does it exist in feudal lands? Does it exist in the social system? Does it exist in university politics? Does it exist in religious shariahs? It obviously doesn`t exist in the Army>

Where is this democracy that we all seem to think will emerge from nowhere, if Jamalis, Legharis, Fahims, Bhuttos, Mehrs, Hussains, Khattaks etc. are allowed to rule over the country for the next forty years. Could you explain exactly how it will emerge. Please do so in detail. Because I ask this question of everyone who makes this argument. They keep making the argument, but never provide an explanation.

The, ``civil`` societies of the world, fought brutal civil wars, or had to grow for centuries to get rid of landed aristocracies and its influence on society, before they could become free of them. The emergence of the Army etc. is only a consequence of such dominance. It is not the cause. In Pakistan, the breakaway of Bangladesh is a consequence of landed aristocracy in Pakistan.

Pakistan, for the next many years, in any kind of leadership, regardless of where it emerges from, will be a game of individuals. Not of instituitons. Insitutions do not arrive from thin air. They don`t arrive by merely making arguments. They are not constructed by individuals, who themselves are harmed by it - this includes the Army, Feudals and maulvis (three groups which dominate Pakistani politics).

It is good to dream and live in a fantasyland. But dreams, unfortunately, do not solve problems.

Pakistan needs a competent, technocratic, urban, honest, leadership with international experience, for a while. This is what got Hong Kong, Singapore, Taiwan and now China out of their respective messes. Once that is done, and people have food to eat, then they can start dreaming.

Those who do have food to eat, are too hung up on names from Musharraf to Jefferson to realize that the average guy on the street would be least bothered by the fact that Jamali is gone. Or what the hell anyone else is doing. He just wants a decent living standard..........

``Shaukat would perform better in select areas. Take my word, Pakistan`s dependency would increase. Note the date and time. 27 june 9:26 AM``

Dependency on what? If he performs better in just a few areas, that is still better than performing terribly in all areas. At least the guy, isn`t afraid to show his wife in public, and doesn`t have sisters married to the Quran. And doesn`t believe in tribal jirgas, and karo-karis, and educates his daughters, and doesn`t consider anyone with the wrong last name, lower than him.........

And if you are bent on making a Constituional argument. His appointment is perfectly legal constituionally speaking.

Dependencies may increase or they may not. But at least it will reduce the chance of the next generation being ruled by Bilawal Bhutto. Musharrafs and Azizs will come and go. But the off-spring of the landed aristocracy will never go, unless they is pushed out of power........and that will never happen democratically..........

``The right wing in India and Pakistan are different.``

hp

Thanks for the comments. Would you be able to clarify the above? Isn`t the term ``right``, ``extreme right`` etc fairly universal describing similar political manifestations?

NHK


``Could Laloo Prashad get an internship in a railway Company? ``

Afsos, he missed his true calling. He would have made a good engine driver.

Irfanhamid:

1) India can do no wrong (or at the very least, its political system can`t)
2) Laloo is beneficial to the Indian railways as its helmsman

As an Indian, I dispute both the above assumptions.

ferozek,

``If Pakistan is truly headed for a presidental form of system, I am really optimistic because Pakistan had no future under a parliamentary form of government``............uh? ......man, you are a hopeless optimist, arn`t you ?.......... what makes you think a presidential form of government will work - didn`t we have ayub khan for ten and zia for eleven - what was that?.......... the khilafat?..........and shaukat aziz is nothing new - we had moeen qureshi before him ......... remember him?............ i hate to disappoint you but nothing will change - we will be discussing the same stuff ten years from now ................ let`s talk about buying a plot or two in the new defence colony in pindi and make some money while the fools are playing at politics ............

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mantolives # 40 - Wow! So with ALL this power and wealth that Mullahs have gotten (changing curriculum through University of Nebraska, power brokering) they must be driving jaguars in Pakistan would, surely have become the largest landowning class in pakistan ! I only pity for the non-mullahs, who for 57 years have been shackled to their seats by these bearded creatures, unable to do anything - good or bad, for Pakistan.

oh wait a minute - seems like its the non-mullahs like you who are the rich ones here, with large houses, largers cars, foreign education, and all the comforts of life. While the mullahs are still making rounds collecting sheep and goat skins on eid day from your homes.

whats wrong with this picture? perhaps you should point your guns to people like you who weild all the power while pretending to have none!

``It is time, Pakistanis move away from the politics of personality and think of the politics of institutions.``(Ferozk)

as if it is the faults of ``Pakistanis`` that they are not moving away from the politics of personalities....

.....with a personality like Musharraf -- that has destroyed most -- INSTITUTIONS -- if only the `personality` will LET the Pakistanis -- move away.....

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So, another Army experiment comes to an end. What else is new? Our Army needs to be given a gold medal just for its persistence in experimenting & the frequency of its noble efforts. And if possible a new Nobel Prize category needs to be created Prizes just for this purpose, irrespective of the fact where those experiments have led this poor nation in the last 56+ years.

We have seen these type of “mid-term course corrections” for the last 56 years. Didn’t lead us anywhere.

And who is to blame for imposing Jamali on this country in the first place? A person hand-picked by the general (and hand-picked obviously for his meekness and non-aggressive attitude and not for his leadership/managerial skills or his efficient handling of affairs) had to be supposedly done away with because he cannot manage things efficiently and is inept. Ha!

Jamali has been punished for his ineptness. And is there any punishment for the person who handpicked Mr. Jamali? Or was Musharraf so innocent that he mistook Jamali for Lee Kuan Yew? Accountability in Pakistan is only for the meek. The chaprasi in front of the XEN’s office is the only one caught redhanded & punished by the Anti-Corruption Department, never the XEN. Hand-picked PMs get fired but never the Generals who put them there in the first place.

I am pretty sure when Shaukat Aziz’s time is up, the justification will be something like,” In Musharraf’s opinion he was the best choice when he was made PM in 2004 being urbanite, professional etc etc, but he just failed as a politician, because of X Y Z reasons. So that experiment has also failed. BUT Musharraf needs another chance at experimenting. Let’s give the Army another chance at experimenting in this laboratory of a country. Let him bring in someone new. Inshallah everything will be fine”

FerozK:

Your argument that you favor institutions falls flat on its face when you give `significance` to the `change of faces` in the PM seat. The `open letter to Jamali` can only be taken as a joke as Jamali never had any credentials or principles that could be called to or woken up. Jamali was always a joke. Just as Shaukat Aziz will be.

Recently a former Brigadier who now heads one of the accountability departments (and who gave a crook like Sherpao a hard time before the Faujiz decided to get in bed with him as well) claimed that `the only thing Pakistan needs is institutions.` This seems to have become a catchy phrase and i guess it sounds cool to utter it so everyone willy nilly says it. Yet he then went on to proudly claim that the first five years of Ayub were the best ever in Pakistan`s history. He conveniently forgot his just-uttered words of honoring the building of institutions and was by implication OK that Ayub screwed the institutions as long as he provided `stunning` growth.

This same argument is being heard today by Fauji lovers.

There is hope in the current shenanigans orchestrated by the Faujiz. And it is that like ALL other historical tinkerings of the past, this will come crashing down. The faujiz have done everything possible to deny a role of POPULISM in politics. Unfortunately, true to their nature, they have offered NOTHING to replace it.

When one talks of institution-building, one cannot conveniently forget that institutions REQUIRE freedom from being tampered with. What you see today is the non-stop tamepering by the Faujiz by juggling politicians. I don`t understand why you go on to claim this as some proof of `institutional building`.

Secondly, why is a presidential form of system suited to Pakistan? Aside from stating what `may` happen differently under a different system, do provide support with Pakistan`s context on why the presidential system will solve many of the problems (as we agree that no system is perfect). Why is the presidential system more suited? I presume you`d say that Ayub`s and Zia`s presidential systems were not really presidential. Why so?

Some more on this `need` to change system:

I would support many of the arguments for wanting to `change the system` were it not for the fact that none of us has shown the ability to project the need for a change at the popular level. Only someone who is capable of having his/her ideas click with the masses stating that a change of system is a must can be taken seriously. Otherwise, it`s no different than mullahs who fantasize about a centuries old system that will solve their problem. Many may agree with them out of respect for religion, but no one believes them thus no one really votes for them for this precise reason.

I`m not saying the presidential system is wrong. Once you respond to the above questions I may be convinced it`s better. But for all intents and purposes I can`t ignore the fact that he British used the same system and it worked brilliantly for them. Maybe it`s not the fault of the system.

And MOST of all, all forms of changes and tinkerings that are done from the top are anti-populist and so really a joke and are an invitation to failure.

ferozk #50
Thanks for your appreciation of my simple comment. May I comment on your more extensive remarks ?

Whether Presidential or Parliamentary system, no ruler can rule for long without an organised popular base to keep the peace at street/regional level. Even the dictatorial governments of erstwhile Soviet Union and present-day China worked/work with the single party, the Communist party which provide organised broad based support upwards and a method of `distribution of spoils` downwards.

Either Musharraf will require the support of such a popular base which helps keeps the peace at street/regional level or he will have to rely increasingly on a repressive secret service to keep the peace.

So having a PM without popular base will not work beyond a point. So however qualified his PM candidate, various groupings will become increasingly restive about being left out of power, and Musharraf will repeatedly try to destabilize his old enemies among them. Instead of getting less involved in civilian affairs, the military will get increasingly involved in civilian affairs.

Anywhere here is what an `expert` says:
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_26-6-2004_pg7_37

Hopefully, the next elections will be corrective to some extent and force the military to accept the reality of sharing power with civilians powerful in their own right.

Take my words for it.
PST 2238 June 27, 2004

The ”Halala” Musharraf is shoving up the arse of the nation (Shujaat taking over for the moment and then Shaukat will replace him in a month or so) will become his biggest mistake yet.

It is just a matter of time that Musharraf will have serious difficulties finding place to drown himself. WCs of the Parliament house too small for him, Restrooms of the GHQ out of bound.

It will be a fun. Hoh, I long to see him running for the cover. By that time Bush too will have gone. Houston with Bilal, wouldn’t be a dream option either.

The only game Na-Pak fauj is good at: Musical chairs. The only political philosophy, the only enlightened moderating vision Army House has is to keep politicians on rotation. Never ever getting anyone strong enough to take the country forward or defy the yoke of military.

What happens if there is an untoward incident before Shaukat gets elected?

my dear Rozaiba...... u seeem to portray either incredible naviety of local politics or incredible optimism about the ex Pm. though as hard he may have tried his tenure was bound 2 b incredibly short..... he was bound 2 have lost the support of his party men as well as the establishment that propped n then elected him! he should be glad that God gave him a chance to be PM which was his wish since the mid eighties..... his name has gone down in history as well and made the baluchis proud by being the PM from their province!

is satire, or sarcasm, or irony missed on some people here?

#50 by ferozk
“How quaint, when history repeats itelf!”

Excellent! So you are pointing out that what is happening in Pakistan is the remaking (bad) of the old movies.

Pakistan practically is under the Presidential system. So it is not actually moving towards it but it is there already.
In the Ayub Khan’s days, his most powerful minister for a long time was Mohd. Shoaib. A World Bank alumnus and a finance guru of some questionable repute. Now we have a finance Minister of similar credentials, who will be prime minister.
In the Zia Ul Haq’s days, for most of the time his most powerful minister was none other then Mehboob Ul Haq another alumnus of the World Bank.

Only Mushy appears to be so stupid that he is willing to make a finance man of dubious credentials, his prime minister as he or his generals have difficulty in trusting any civilian politicians.
I would not blame them. Look at the history. Every civilian horse that they backed, from the erstwhile ZAB to Junejo to NS, turn around and tried to unsaddle them to dust.
Basically, what we have is Katchi Sharab in a new bottle or as some poet said Nai Jaal liya purana shikari.

Ignore the modus operandi, as that is the only way army can operate. It has a manual and every time the army needs changes, it dusts up the same old manual.
The need for change in Pakistan is obvious. As you point out mostly as part of the new Non-Nato ally status. These changes have nothing to do with changes at the lower level that will never happen.
If they talk of Institution building, they are only talking about the army as its image has been tarnished by the infiltration of the fundamentalist in its rank.


#63 by sadna
“Musharaf will require the support of such a popular base”

Sometimes you are funny! Musharaf already has that base. Don’t you see that around here? They form the majority in Pakistan.

Nothing has ever changed in Pakistan by the Street power alone and it is not a consideration because the Army has been manipulating the street for a long time now.
The first time Army lost power in Pakistan was due to its defeat in 1971, the second time around either KGB or CIA killed the Army chief to bring civilians to power.

H-Ikram # 62 - well said ! The only thing the occupation army seems to be good at is suppressing our people and surrounding and killing our villagers. Here is a force that takes away 40% of our national budget but has yet to win a foreign war!

The only thing it has become good at is to kill the civilians it swore to protect under the auspices of incompetent generals. THAT is where 40% of our national defense budget is being spent.

It is a common knowledge that this fukking despot has been sending Pakistani mercenaries into Iraq thru illegally operating recruiting centers in all major cities, to protect his masters in Iraq. And now he is gonna give head. Anything for the masters.


http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3126186

``The hostage, who said he was a driver named as Amjad, urged Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf to close the Pakistani Embassy in Iraq and to ban all Pakistanis from coming to Iraq.

He appealed to his countrymen not to come to Iraq because “there are no work opportunities here.”

The hostage, who knelt before the armed gunmen and bowed his head, insisted that his life would not be spared because he was a Muslim.

“I’m also Muslim, but despite this they didn’t release me,” he said. “They are going to cut the head off any person regardless of whether he is a Muslim or not.”

---

so much for the Umma Business in Pakistan -- hopefully Mooshruff Babu is listening -- no Pakistani Sepoys for -- Chotaa Bush Sahib -- in `Eyerock`....please

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HP #69
Read my post again. Musharraf needs an ORGANISED popular base to keep the peace. The majority might support him but are not organised and hence cannot keep the peace.

arjunm

Even if this guy was just cleaning the toilets of crusaders, this despot and na-pak fauj shouldn`t have send him there. As if we didn`t have enough enemies already.

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Two questions:

1. Is Shaukat Aziz a Qadiani?

2. Is he a US citizen?

Irfanhamid # 41, Manto # 40

(It is not upto his staff to make decisions for him, their job is to provide him with options, the ultimate choices should be his. If he does not know anything about S&T then he is like an 18 year old)

A minister needs a political touch - after all he is the representative of the people. The actual practice is that Parlimentarians having backround in the area are considered for the ministerial posts. A background in a specific area is good enough qualification to understand what is going on. He need not be a 100% technically qualified expert - that was the essance of my Post. (Laloo was an extreme example - although Laloo fully understands what railway is about)

Manto # 40

MQM & MMA

You will agree both are politically well knit entities. We are not discussing their good or bad.

Both have been able to extract maximum political advantage from the military Government. MMA supports the Government because it wants to keep system going. For the first time, they have gotten so many seats. It is in their interest that they remain in power in NWFP. It is understood that their agenda is neither democracy nor Pakistan. It is some kind of pan-islamism to which I disagree.

Despite its past skeletons, MQM is now a much reformed party with a clear vision. It has supported Government in a clear quid-pro-que fashion - getting in return what it wanted. It knows its position of strength and without it, the Government could fall. I like MQM`s present Manifesto on both Domestic and foreign policies.

In essance, both MMA & MQM are political entities the Government could not ignore.

These could have be conveniently ignored if PPP was brought into the fold - a sensible course of action. But the Military is perenially scared of PPP - the only populist party that could challenge it. Keeping PPP & PML (N) out is atificially tempering the political forces which is detrimental to the state as has been proved in the past.

Salzar

My neighbor swears that begum sehba musharaf is a quadiani. She was his neighbor at Hyderabad and was a schoolteacher when Mushsraf proposed.

#75 by Salazar

Third question: Is Shaukat Aziz an alien?

*X-Files theme music in the background*

#28 by Romair on June 26, 2004 6:29pm PT

[The good part is that it is about time that waderas and feudals and tribals stopped becoming Prime Ministers. They have nothing to do with democracy.]

You know what a democracy is? It is an arrangement where there is a place for ALL, be they feudals or serfs. But how will you know? World over, armies are known for not encouraging rational thinking amongst their rank and file.

#46 by malang

[Mr. Romair has more than 2000 replies on this forum – without having any degree in essay writing.]

ROTFL!!!!

Daily Times

EDITORIAL: Dispensing with poor Mr Jamali

Someone is giving General Pervez Musharraf bad advice. Yesterday, even as Prime Minister Zafarullah Khan Jamali’s words that ‘I’m going nowhere’ were reverberating, news came in that he had been nudged to resign. This newspaper had already reported in its June 26 issue that Mr Jamali would resign the same day. But we are not happy to be proved right because we have consistently opposed this move for many reasons. But now that this has happened, let us see why it happened and what may lie in store for General Musharraf’s ‘democracy’.

Mr Jamali’s sacking will certainly breed uncertainty and may even lead to instability. We shall have an interim prime minister in Chaudhry Shujaat and then General Musharraf will move heaven and earth to get Shaukat Aziz elected from a ‘safe’ National Assembly seat so that he can become prime minister and dance to General Musharraf’s tune. Meanwhile, the opposition will join hands to thwart this move and allegations of ‘rigging’ will rent the air and boycotts will follow in the assembly. In the end we shall have not one (General Musharraf) but two ‘leaders’ who will have been thrust on the nation by reason of the brute force that General Musharraf enjoys because Mr Aziz will be even more of a party ‘loner’ than Mr Jamali ever was.

We hear that General Musharraf was unhappy with Mr Jamali’s inability to deliver and reduce the level of political opposition to him. If this is true then we are surprised at General Musharraf’s reasoning. First, he created a system where the prime minister is less than even a figurehead; then he handpicked Mr Jamali because the latter was thought to be most pliable; now he was peeved at Mr Jamali’s seeming inability to deliver. And pray, how might Mr Aziz be better at delivering General Musharraf’s political agenda where Mr Jamali failed because General Musharraf was not prepared to give to the prime minister what is due him in a parliamentary system?

Take a look at a whole range of issues from the negotiations on the Legal Framework Order to the peace process with India. Did anyone see Mr Jamali’s imprimatur on anything? He was there simply to do as the ‘boss’ wished and he did this admirably. Then how can his ‘performance’ or the ‘lack of it’ be used to indict him?

But there may be another perspective to this whole affair. General Musharraf seems disinclined to honour his legal and constitutional commitment to shed his uniform by December this year. That is clear by now even though he has tried to be circuitous on the issue every time the question has been put to him. It seems that he thinks, or has been made to think, that this would require a re-booting of the system. Seen from this perspective, Mr Jamali’s sacking should merely be the first step towards ‘other’ measures that might follow.

The foremost opposition to General Musharraf on the issue of the uniform will come from the Mutahidda Majlis-e-Amal with whom he made the commitment as part of the deal on the LFO. Now, while General Musharraf has made it clear that he does not think he is beholden to the MMA because the alliance has not kept its end of the bargain by opposing the NSC, the fact is that General Musharraf’s commitment is now legal and he cannot simply shrug it off without precipitating a constitutional crisis. The MMA has already refused to participate in the proceedings of the NSC and the only way, going by this logic, would be to decapitate its government in the NWFP and, by extension, the alliance itself. The move itself would entail sacking the NWFP government, ordering re-elections in that province and ensuring that the MMA does not win by playing on the internal fissures of the alliance and rigging the rest.

But the question is: Since much of this is to be done by General Musharraf himself, why get rid of Mr Jamali? The only answer that makes sense is that Mr Jamali was not 100 percent with General Musharraf on the schemes that the latter might want to hatch, from the NSC to the issue of the uniform. General Musharraf likes to clear the decks before the battle and it would make sense from his point of view to pack off anyone who was not fully with him.

But does all this add up to something? For a start it shows how General Musharraf’s much-flaunted system is both arbitrary and frail. He has been in the driver’s seat for over five years now. He has exercised unfettered powers to do as he wished. He has tempered with the system as he pleased. He had all the time in the world to tailor-make it for himself, which is exactly what he has done. In doing this he has put down political opposition and shown complete disregard for legal-normative criteria. But to what end, we may ask?

The system remains riven with inconsistencies and contradictions. The irony is that no matter how much more General Musharraf may try to make it work, it won’t. Why? Because no political system can be made to work without allowing the real and natural political actors to play their role unhampered. The desire to oversee the conduct of the politicians and monitor and corral the political parties simply does not work.

In the event, we cannot help but suspect that there may be a larger and longer-term agenda at stake. Is Mr Shaukat Aziz going to be groomed as General Pervez Musharraf’s ‘running mate’ in a new round of select provincial or general elections next year in which the Muslim League under General Musharraf’s helmsmanship is going to try and whip up a two-thirds majority in parliament to amend the constitution radically and manufacture a hybrid presidential system that fits General Musharraf like a glove? Two clichés come to mind: there’s many a slip between the cup and the lip; and the road to hell is paved with the best of intentions. *

and nikki what a joke you are .....

arjun_M: As an aside: kudos on running a great website.. -- wow u seem in a good mood -- prob kudos because its provides such a happy hunting ground for paki bashers like u arjun --

#19 by chowk-staff on June 26, 2004 4:56pm PT
Ref #18, 17, 15

The article ``Police Protecting The Army`` wll be reposted as soon as the writers correct name is verified. We removed the article because Che Guevarra is not acceptable as a name for a writer. The original Che is a very well known personality and has numerous web references. The original posting was in error. Chowk apologizes for the inconvenience.

Urstruly,

Thanks. Chowk condemns censorship just as strongly.

Unflinching Idealism is not an easy goal. Even we as rational facilitators of dialogue are tested with some hard decisions. Just because we can control the flow of information does not mean that we should take positions and sides - we dont. Sometimes we are in error but we do remain prepared to learn as and when needed. Chowk will not bend to any ideology or use of force - to the best of our ability.

Chowk-Staff


what nonsense -- everybody ends up taking sides -- what is good that as an editor you should at least be aware of this fact instead of pretending that you are being objective -- you can try to be objective but will never be completely because there probably isnt a (a la platonic) ideal of objectivity -- your editorial decision to print or not print something has to be based on certain parameters -- for some reason everyone on this site seems to confuse editorial discretion with censorship -- and by the way the very fact that you are in a position to control the flow of information on this site puts you in an inherentlty privileged position vis a vis the interactors -- and there is nothing wrong with that because how else will a media organization or any organization work for that matter -- unless of course the aim in anarchy in which case power neednt be centralized

re: Sadna

Yes, I have read what the experts have to say and each is entitled to his/her opinions. As to Musharraf and his local/regional power base, you have raised a good question. I am not sure, what the end will be, but Musharraf is trying to create some power base. Local bodies or the devolution of government can be considered as one on a local level and on the regional level, he seems to have Punjab and Sindh, but not Baluchistan or NWFP. The jury is still out on his efforts.

re: HP

Pakistan is not a presidental system. It is still a mixture of the parliamentary and the presidental system. A presidential system, as I define it, resememble