The French Engineering Education System

Re: # 3
In case of French tradition of having strong Mathematics, I agree with Irfan.
Not only that they have the great mathematicians in the Past like Descartes, Fermat, Poisson, Pascal, Lagrange and Poincaré, but in the last 15 years, France has the most of the Fields Medal (Mathematics equivalent of Nobel Prize).
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fields_Medal

Aman,

Yes I looked it up. I think maybe I have an explanation for this. Like you know, the best here go for diplome d`ingenieur, and a few really motivated ones go into the research side. So I guess engineering research suffers from a lack of quantity/quality. Something to think about.

Irfan.

PS: Any plans to visit Paris?

Irfan,

Oddly enough, the French engineering community`s R&D output seems under-represented in the Thomson ISI data analysed by David King in a report published in Nature.

check out this plot:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v430/n6997/fig_tab/430311a_F3.html

note though that in Maths, the frogs *are* ahead despite all their problems with English.

the full article is here:
http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/Dynapage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v430/n6997/full/430311a_fs.html

and this hurts:

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The political implications of this last comparison are difficult to exaggerate. South Africa, at 29th place in my rank ordering, is the only African country on the list. The Islamic countries are only represented by Iran at 30th, despite the high GDP of many of them and the prominence of some individuals, such as Nobel prizewinners Abdus Salam (physics, 1979) and Ahmed Zewail (chemistry, 1999)7.

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Aman

ROmair is upto his usual tricks and a bunch of otherwise rational people are being taken along for the ride.

The debate about educational systems is useless without regard to the social, economic and financial systems of the neighborhood. Hiring the best Phds in Finland and making them create the latest ringtones is not a good use of a nation`s best minds. Similarly expecting Nobel laureates in Mathematics out of Latin America would be expecting siestas and indisciminate sex not to have any debilitating economic effects.

America leads the rest of the world because it allows the foolhardy and the mad geniuses to indulge freely in their garages to create the next Amazon or Microsoft. It allows them to get hold of capital and like minded crazy individuals to dream the impossible. In other countries that dream`s first step involves getting to the US. All this talk of creating streamlined educational systems by the likes of ROmair is born out of mediocre institutions that allow his likes to get advanced degrees without getting any education in the true sense of the word.

Instead of throwing money into bottomless pits like Basic Research, Phds, Ata ur Rehman etc., creating a general atmosphere that nurtures creativity and risk-taking is what countries like Pakistan require. I bet if you shut down all the IITs in India, it will still produce the same high quality of employees, entrepreneurs and engineers. These people now increasingly stay in India because they can still dream big staying in India. Countries like Pakistan need to work on basic things like law and order, property rights and indiscrimination against women and the dreamers will take them where they need to go.

later
-sac

irfanhamid #15: Ref: http://www.aneki.com/nobel.html
http://members.shaw.ca/delajara/Nobels.html

Going by this discussion, and the size and innovation capabilities of French tech companies, one would have to say that French education is quite good in various Engineering fields (like aerospace). But in pure sciences, and computer sciences etc., USA is still way ahead.

Having said that, in Europe, it would seem like UK is the leading country in the tech area. Because, it seems to cover all the areas. It has won proportionately equivalent number of Nobel prizes in sciences, as the USA (both countries are way ahead of the rest of the world). It`s engineering and tech (and oil) companies are as big (infact bigger) than those in France. And, of course, like France, it is a center for arts and literature.

I suppose one would have to actually go through the educational system of these countries to get a good idea. I am only familiar with the Pakistani system, and the USA system. And now have quite a bit of knowledge of the standards of the Canadian system, based on the students in the market.

Overall, I remember reading a study somewhere (from Harvard?), that pointed out that research indicates that the primary factor in success of technical individuals in the industry (different from academic research) is the ability of the person, him/herself. Not the univeristy he/she indicated. The university only makes a major difference in other not-tech fields like law, etc.

I have found this to be true. This, of course, does not mean one should not try to put up the best universities.

My suggestion would be that Pakistan has tried to copy the British system. This system seems to be working and competing well enough, in the international arena, for Brits. Perhaps even better than the French system. We should first try to sort out the British system, and get it going. Once that is going well, then try to improve it by introducing other systems like the French, in certain areas. If we cannot even get the British system going, we will not be able to get the French system going either........

Nobel Prizes are awarded for a very narrow range of fields and subfields. Even an ancient and revered science like astronomy has barely won more than half a dozen in a hundred years. Astrophysics even less. The Nobel commitee has its prejudices. Experimental Solid State Physics is, for some reason, given much higher priority over all other subfields. This also happens to be a field where the US is exceptionally strong. Stephen Hawking maybe a bit of a shameless self-promoter, but no one doubts his absolute brilliance. And he will NEVER win a Nobel Prize simply because of the field he works in.

More to the point, the large majority of `American` Nobel Prize winners in recent years have been non-Americans. And this is something that has really worried leading American scientists and educationalists because it exposes the deficiency of the American education system.

Going back to France, French researchers are among the most creative in many fields of technology. Telecommunications and signal processing in particular are fields where the French have pioneered and developed the most exciting and important subfields. In aeronautics, AirBus doesn`t just `compete` with Boeing (as Romair claims). It has OVERTAKEN Boeing and Boeing`s future now looks bleak (There was talk recently of breaking it up). If it weren`t for American government bullying no one now would buy Boeing`s inferior technology.


Pakistanis have to give up this Maee-Baap attitude to whoever has the biggest danda in the world at the time. Our forefathers had this embarrasing attitude to the British. And now that Mother England has passed on the danda to Daughter America, many of us have the same attitutde to the US. The Pakistan government for once has got it right. Spreading Pak students to ALL the advanced nations so we can learn as much as possible from ALL of them.

France is a social welfare state unlike US. Generally, in social welfare states, there are a lot of taxes and government allows a little for extra-ordinary growth and competition on the terms that government is responsible for maintaing the standard of living of its citizens. In the end, there remains very little diference between the net income of rich and poor. Although such system guarantees good amount of facilities every ordinary citizen but for extra-ordinary, it doesn`t seem to be much attractive.
Now when an extra-ordinary french scientist realizes that his counterparts in US are earning two times more than him in US, he naturally opts to go there. Same is true for the talented people of other countries (even if they are from rich but non-capitalist countries like France).

My point is, when a scientist made in France, Germany, Russia, China and India goes to US and after going their participates in research activities there, it simply means that US has bought a ``ready-made scientist`` to fulfill its research ambitions although the research base of that person was developed in the other parts of the world.
Now pick up any ``good`` university of US (Ranked in top 20), see its faculty members, you will find many Vijay Kumars, Chang Lius, Vladimirs in the list. remember, all of them were trained in other parts of the world than US. Pick Nobel leaureates of US, most of them are from froreign origin. This all szimple means that US universities are jnot preparing this talent. US in only buying this ``ready-made`` talent with attractive offers.

Romair,
Although I don`t want to bring it to this, but here goes. First off, the Nobel prize is given for achievement in the sciences (physics, chemistry, medicine), literature, peace and economics. Engineering does not figure into this anywhere. Furthermore, like I wrote in the article, the best students go to engineering schools, hence study engineering. There are only a couple of generaliste engineering schools who have a specialization in physics or chemistry. Compare this with the amount of physics/chem students in the US and then make an adjustment when calculating (the question has never been one of quantity, but of quality). Most of the physics students here in France are studying in universities (which as I said are non-competitive). Take the average percentile GRE score of US physics students with percentile positions of the French physics students and you will probably find that that the US students are better, which is understandable since the cream of the crop here goes to study engineering, plus they don`t pass through the intensive preparation formation which are only available to grandes ecoles applicants.

As far as math is concerned that is another story, like I said in the article the French are renowned mathematicians. The Fields medal is like the Nobel prize of mathematics. Awarded every four years, the numbers are as follows between 1936 (when it was started) and 1994:

America: 10
France: 6
UK: 4
Others: 18
*

Now take into account that France`s population is about 20% that of the US and about the same as the UK. I rest my case.

Regards,
Irfan.

* taken from http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Societies/FieldsMedal.html

PS: Mind giving a reference to the Nobel prize stats?

Ref Romair #10

[Thanks for the information. Is it the same in UK? Or is the UK Ph.D is CS based on 2 yrs B.SC + 2 yr M.Sc. + 3 year Ph.D.]

TWO-year BSc in the UK? I thought the BSc/BA took three years. Is this something special for Pakistani cabdrivers?

[I don`t have information of Europe vs. USA in areas outside Aviation and CS. In aviation, it competes well enough. Airbus and Boeing are competitors, and pretty much dominate the world market. In military aviation, there are really only four countries that indigenously make aircraft. These are USA, Russia, France and UK. Swedes make some too. The rest copy aircraft (like China), or are barely able to just get one or two to fly.]

The RCMP will soon be showing up at your doorsteps to deport you.

Bombardier (of Canada, you know, your adopted homeland) makes regional jets that sell very well in the under-100 passenger category. In fact, if you fly American Eagle, United Express/Atlantic Coast/Independence Air or any such commuter airline, you are likely to be in a CRJ or an Embraer from Brazil. Some long routes such as Washington/Dulles to Jacksonville, FL are served by the CRJ.

#9

The CSNE system is the one ROmair mentions in #12, compulsory military service was waived for graduates who worked abroad for a year. The French goverment even pays for their stipends. The CSNE sysem is a good source of quality (and subsidised!!) interns at our company. The system seems to have survived even now when compulsory military service is not required in France.

Another question:

From 1951 - 2000, the number of Nobel prizes, in sciences, won by France, is disproportionately low, vis-a-vis its population, in comparison to the USA and UK. The USA has won 55%, which is much higher than its ratio of population. UK with a population similar to France`s, has won 40. While France has only won 9.

The country with the worst performace, in this category, amongst advanced countries, ranked via population, is Japan; which has won only 5, even though it has a population which is 45% of the USA, and twice that of France and UK.

If you take the Nobel prizes, from 1900 onwards, in all categories, than the ratio is different. Amongst the larger countries, Britain (at position 6th) has the best ratio. USA is at 11 and France at 12th. Primarily because, before WWII, Europe did dominate in sciences.

Interestingly, in population ratios, Pakistan is 39th, and India is 40th. Pakistan has won 1. And India has won 3. Amongst Muslim countries, Egypt is highest, at 35th, with 2.

Interestingly, the area where France dominates and leads the world in Nobel prizes is Literature. It has won 12 overall. While the USA has won 11.

So gonig by this, we should be copying USA and UK for science. And France for literature and arts....... :-)

virtue83: I do not know of any CS dept under Liberal Arts either. However, many US universities, have a combined dept. of Liberal Arts and Sciences (LAS), and Comp. Sci. and Math fall under the Science part of that. So I guess a more appropriate area would be Dept. of Sciences (if it exists independently).

Another thing one of the young French software engineers I was working with told me. He had to do compulsory military service of two years, or something. However, he was able to get it defered by working for an IT company, overseas, somehow or the other!! This was about six to seven years ago.

Interestingly, Canada seems to be doing well in the networking area. It has (had) two giants in Nortel and JDS. However, it software, Canada hasn`t been able to do much either. I think the biggest company is Cognos, and there really isn`t a no. 2, other than Correll.

Forbes picked eight companies, it felt that had the most stable and brightest future. Six were American and two were Indian.For some reason, the USA completely dominates the rest of the world in software product companies......

Romair: I have not heard of CS dept. falling under Liberal Arts, atleast at any Canadian University. Usually it falls under Faculty of Science or in the case of my university it is under Faculty of Math. It makes sense as most of the Computer Science concepts are based on principles of math. Most of the mathies (taking CS) end up taking quite a few EE courses to gain more in-depth knowledge of the hardware side.

Good article, it seems like French engineering schools are pretty competitive.

Canadian System:
In Canada universities admission (there is no such thing as engineering schools) is totally based on your top 6 grade 12 marks. For engineering they look at your high school marks for Calculus, Algebra, Finite, Physics, Chemistry and an elective. There is no centralized testing system so marks depend largely on which high school you attend.

Quite a few of the Canadian universities have implemented the co-op system. So an undergraduate engineering degree takes 5 years to complete. It includes 6 workterms ( 4 month each). So by the time a student graduates, he/she will have 2 years of professional engineering experience.

I think this is somewhat similar to the co-op system in France. Last term I was working at an aerospace firm that had hired 2 french interns. But the funny part was the French students were not being paid (other than housing and food expenses) whereas Canadian co-op students were paid weekly wages. I am not aware of their technical expertise but they sure kicked our ass as far as skiing (and snowboarding) was concerned!

Charlie/Irfan: Thanks for the information. Is it the same in UK? Or is the UK Ph.D is CS based on 2 yrs B.SC + 2 yr M.Sc. + 3 year Ph.D.

I don`t have information of Europe vs. USA in areas outside Aviation and CS. In aviation, it competes well enough. Airbus and Boeing are competitors, and pretty much dominate the world market. In military aviation, there are really only four countries that indigenously make aircraft. These are USA, Russia, France and UK. Swedes make some too. The rest copy aircraft (like China), or are barely able to just get one or two to fly.

In terms of quality, I would assume the Airbuses and Mirages are in the same technical category as the Boeings and the F-18s.

In software engg., there really isn`t much competition for the USA. What to talk of Europe, you could put the whole world on one side and the USA on the other, and still USA would be way ahead, when it comes to products. 16 of the top 20 companies in software and services, in revenues, are American. Only two are European. One really has to think hard to come up with a list of software mainstream products that were developed outside the USA, and have been marketed on a large scale. SAP is the only European competitor, and even it was started by individuals from IBM. And don`t be surprised, if SAP gets bought up by some American company, if Oracle is successful with Peoplesoft, someday.

Other than CATIA, France hasn`t produced much, in the software area. And CATIA came from the Aviation industry, and is basically used in Engineering. Linux was started by a guy named Linus, who was born in Finland. However, he moved to the USA. And the main companies pushing the product (Red Hat, etc.) are American.

I don`t know what the reason for this is. Maybe all the top Comp. Sci. in the world descend into the USA. Or maybe it is because French govt. may subsidize software companies, thereby not leaving them competitive when they compete in the big leagues. Even the French company I worked with, despite having a very high tech product, was just about to go under, because it couldn`t sell it.

P.S. CS comes under various depts. in the USA. In many, if not most cases, it is under Liberal Arts and Sciences (LAS) with Math, since that is where it historically fit. In other cases, it has been joined with EE.

Bongdongs,
Internships (stage) are a very important part of the learning process in French education and are not taken lightly. Students are required to undertake a 6 month internship to validate their engineering degrees, during this they are paid quite adequately and they have pre-determined targets to achieve to validate the internship and thus their diploma. I have never heard of the CSNE.

OK, as far as classification of French engineering schools are concerned, names don`t really matter too much. A school can be an ``ecole nationale superieure``, an ``ecole superieure``, an ``ecole normale`` or some other designation (``ecole centrale`` for example, or even an ``institut nationale``). They are all regulated by various ministries and fall under the purview of the CGE (Conference des Grandes Ecoles). The most elite school is the Ecole Polytechnique (also called X), followed closely by Ecole Normale Superieure Paris, Ecole des Mines de Paris and Ecole Centrale de Paris. These are all ``generalist`` schools, meaning their students have courses in everything from economy to thermodynamics to signal processing. They are destined for careers in policy and enterprise management. Another type of schools is Supelec (Ecole Superieure d`Electricite) or ENST (a telecom school). These are specialist schools where students are given concentrated education centered around a specialized discipline, these students are destined to take up careers in R&D.

Universities are a completely separate and parallel higher education track. Universities are not allowed to give engineering degrees, but they do carry out engineering research and education at the doctoral level. The major difference between universities and engineering schools is that universities are not selective in admission whereas engineering schools are very much so.

Romair,
Computer sciences and computer engineering are considered the same discipline in France and it is called informatique. Students are usually given quite rigorous instruction in the 3rd and 4th years in both aspects, and they can choose a specialist track in their 5th year. In the US, computer science and math is never classified in liberal arts, always sciences or engineering (in the case of computer sciences). In the US it would depend on the universitie`s own policy or direction. MIT groups together electrical engineering and CS in one department (EECS) yet GeorgiaTech has a seperate College of Computing. And in the end it does not matter whether your specialization is in hardware or software your PhD ends up taking a minimum of 8 years after high-school.

Yes it`s true that the US has a large number of universities which means they have a large amount of research. But I would argue that that does not mean their research quality far outstrips that of Europe. It would be an injustice to compare the amount of research output of France or Germany alone to the US, so you should compare the whole of Europe to the US (same population roughly).

If you were to compare pure software products then the major horsepower for the open-source movement (in particular the Linux kernel) comes from Europe.

Charlie,
I didn`t want to further confuse the readers with the intricacies of the French system. So I just chose one aspect that I have seen from the inside. But of course the issue is there of the whole spectrum of DEA/DESS/Mastere Specialise and the new LMD system. But the grandes ecoles are not to keen on the name change because they have to give up the prestigious diplome d`ingenieur label.

Regards,
Irfan.

very good article Irfan. keep it up.

People look a bit confused about numbers of years calculated till PhD level. Diplome d`ingenieur (Engineering degree) takes five years after Baccalaureat (equivalent to FSc). In US educational system, it takes four years. DEA (equivalent to masters in research) takes one year more.Alternatively, students of final year engineering can opt for a few courses of DEA to approach a DEA (Masters) at the end of engineering degree. and then Three year after DEA one receives a PhD. So, it takes the same time for a PhD as of American education system.

Also, as a part of some European Union reforms, France is adopting the terms Masters of Research (MSc Engg), and master of Industry (something similar to MEng) gradually. And I guess, they will be in sync with the other europe in their educational system after a few years.

Irfan:

Is Computer Sciences considered a part of engineering in France or a part of Liberal Arts and Sciences (as it is in USA, alongwith Math)? If someone wanted a Ph.D in Comp. Sci (not the hardware side of Comp. Eng, but software) would they go through high shool + 2 years (Bachelors type) + 1 year (Masters) + 3 years (Ph.D.) = 6 to 7 years for Ph.D.

You are correct in stating the problems of the US high school system. However, at the University level, I really don`t think, there is any comparison. Just the number of universities in the USA is so gigantic, than no one can match the research. Secondly, so much of the US research actually occurs in the universities, themselves. Thirdly, the USA atrracts the best and brightest students and professors from all of the world. In my graduate program, I would say 75% of the student were foreigners, as were over 50% of the professors. This goes well beyond the top 20 universities.

The main problem in the US univ. system that I see is that it is a two-tier system. Some of the top universities are just too expensive for a normal student to attend; even though they give a lot of scholarships. While in places like Canada (and I assume France), all the universities have almost identical tuition. The govt. greatly subsidizes the top universities, and gives a lot of loans i.e. if you have good grades, you will get in and make it through any universities.

My knowledge is limited to aviation and comp. sci (and math to some degree). In aviation, as I mentioned France is a hi-tech powerhouse. It`s locally and jointly designed aircraft (like Airbus series, Mirage series, Rafale etc.) compete with the top of the line US aircraft.

However, in the software side of IT, France is nowhere to be seen. That is because the USA completely dominates the product side of IT. Other than SAP, Checkpoint, CATIA (from French aviation) and Iona, I cannot really think of many major products (out of hundreds) that are developed outside the USA. Even India, with so many engineers, and China, have not been able to produce any products that are in the software mainstream. They are all into services.........

Romair,
I`m sorry, but you have an infuriating habit of making the most absurd pronouncements with such an air of authority.

As far as PhDs are concerned, French and German Phds are way ahead of everyone, including the USA. The USA in turn is way ahead of the UK. To get a Phd in Germany, in particular, really means something. US universities, on the other hand, recieve much more money than Europeans ones for research, and as a consequence the Americans are ahead in experimental research and hardware development. In theoretical research and computational science there isn`t much difference. Perhaps the Europeans are a little ahead.

America wins just over half of all Nobel prizes. A figure proportional to its percentage of the population of the Western world. Half is very good, but is very away from `all` as you absurdly claim. But most importantly, in recent years the vast majority of `American` Nobel prize winners were people born, trained and educated outside of America. In 1999 every single `American` Nobel prize winner was a non-American. Hardly evidence of the greatest of the American education system.

America invents everything?? This is your most outlandish claim. Outside of computers (which admitedly is a very important industry), America doesn`t invent or make anything of any use to anyone. All of the great innovations in electronics, cars, mobile phones, etc are made in Japan or Europe.

One of the greatest industrial and scientific inventions of that last few decades is computer assisted tomography and its various related technologies like MRI. The foundations for CAT were laid by one man in England in the early 70s, and since then England has had an equal share in developing CAT technology and related ones like MRI.

The world does not revolve around IT, romair. And Pakistan`s decision to invest so much money on IT was a catastrophic miscalculation. We need scientific journals not internet cafes, more physcists not programmers. More people developing codes for condensed matter calculations not accounts packages.

Freethinker,
Yes it`s true, in our country a PhD is considered to be an end in and of itself. Whereas in reality it should be used as a point-of-departure for a life in research, as it gives you a visa to join that select group.

Malik99,
Yes it is true that Germans are very famous for engineering. They are renowned for their efficiency and work ethic. But my point was, and still is, that the French are not far behind, in fact in some areas they are world leaders (telecommunications for example).

It is true that more and more Pakistani students are heading for France (in Europe as well). Last year we were 51 students who came here, this year I am hearing that there are close to 100. Your question of US versus French education I will address in the next
section.

As far as the question of industry to absorb graduates that is a catch-22 situation. It might be said that we need a steady outflux of quality engineers to uplift the industry. Therefore, I don`t think that we should deprioritize education because there is no absorption
capability.

France does have very strong unions and labor strike problems, but they tend to affect production and service industries and not high-tech because that is an intellect driven enterprise rather than manpower driven.

Romair,
Multiple issues. Starting from the top. A PhD in France takes a minimum of 8 years after high-school, no way to go around it. I have spent over a year here, and am currently in a PhD program, so this is first-hand information. Apart from that, what they told you about getting into a university straight after high-school is correct. But keep in mind that in France, universities are not authorized to give an engineering degree, that can only be done by the elite ``grandes ecoles`` of engineering studies. The fact that those people told you they were from universities means that they did, in fact, not attend engineering schools (which was the point of my whole article anyway). In France there is no concept of a bachelor`s degree in engineering, the only degree you can get is a diplome d`ingenieur which entails 5 years of studies after high-school, follow it up with a PhD that takes a minimum of 3 years and you have the resulting 8.

Yes, in IT, France is lagging behind the US, far behind. But, the good thing is, they have recognized this, and are actively pursuing it. With their vast educational resources, they will be able to carve out a niche for themselves. In fact, in some fields of computer sciences/engineering France is quite advanced (real-time systems is one area that comes to mind). Also, I believe we in Pakistan have to get off the IT bandwagon because it is old news. We need research in every area, be it engineering, applied sciences, pure sciences or social sciences, otherwise we will go nowhere.

Now coming to the US vs French education comparison. Again the issue has many levels. If you want to look at basic education, I believe the US is more messed up than any other first-world country. Their schools and their education system is absolutely a mess. Europe is far better in that respect. It is really easy to gauge the quality of basic education of a country; just have a 2 minute conversation with an average person in the street. In that respect I have had interaction with Europeans, and with Americans, I have found Europeans to be much more cultured, aware and sensible.

Higher education is a different ball-game. I will be the first to admit that MIT, Caltech, Stanford, CMU, Berkeley etc. are by far THE best universities in the world. But then you have an entire gamut of universities that are by turns, good, average, below average, and just plain aweful. I have had exchange students from America as classmates, even from some very good universities, they were always good, never at the top. I believe that after the top-20 ranked universities in the US, things go south, and they go south FAST. A simple example, every year about 120,000 students give the competitive exams to enter engineering schools, the top 400 go to the most prestigious one, Ecole Polytechnique, that`s a selectivity rate of 0.33%. So you can guess what the quality of those students will be. Also consider that most engineering schools have a student/teacher ration of 10/1. All this for 70 euros a year, I would say it`s an amazing deal. Which is why I gave up a position at a major US university to come study here.

Regards,
Irfan.

Irfan,

A very good article. Could you expand on some more areas for me:

- Internships: These seeems to be a more intensive system of internships (``stage``). Everybody seems to spends atleast 6 months doing a ``stage``. Also how does the CSNE system fit in?

- I have often heard of the three levels of engineering schools. For example the ``Ecole Superior`` schools or a school like ``Physics et Chemie`` is the highest level, ``SUPELEC`` aso might be. Schools like ``Centrale Paris`` or ``Centrale Lille`` seem to be the next level.

- How do education at ``specialized`` schools like SUPELEC or ``Ecole des Mines at Nantes`` differ from ``general`` engineering schools like ``Centrale Paris``.

- The ``university`` system (University Paris VI or university Marie et Curie) seems to be quite seperate than the engineering ``Ecoles``. Could you explain the relationship better.

Interesting article.

I worked with a large team of French software engineers, on a research-type project, a while back. It was interesting to see that every third one of them had a Ph.D level degree. After discussing this with them, their explanations of the curriculum were a bit different than yours.

Apparently getting a Ph.D is France is quite a bit easier than getting one in the USA. They told me that they go from high school, straight to college, and in two years get a Bachelors (even in CS; which in Pakistan takes three to four years). Then they get a Masters in a year or year and a half. And then a Ph.D. In essence, in six or seven years, they have a Ph.D. Within this time one can only get an MS in USA.

The other interesting part was that like all of us desis, they were also trying hard to get a Green Card.....I found that odd.

In IT, France is nothing great. Don`t really know of any big French IT companies. In IT the top country, by a gigantic margin is USA. The other countries worth mentioning are Ireland (for its software product exports), Israel (for its IT entrprenuers), India (for the number of IT engineers it produces) and China (for its huge market). The only three countries with software companies in the top 20, other than USA, are Israel, Germany, and Japan; one each. (France has one also, but it is actually an aviation company, with an IT product).

The are quite good and big in telecom apparently, though.

In other engineering areas, of course, France is big. In aviation, the conglomorate Airbus is taking on Boeing. France`s defence aviation industry products, are second only to the USA. Dassault is very hi-tech. Infact, France`s most well-known IT product, CATIA, is made by Dassualt. Pakistan and India are big purchasers of Dassault`s aircraft. In fact, PAF has the most Mirage aircraft in the world now (I think); even more than France - albeit of the older variety. And India is becoming a major purchaser of the very expensive and very new Mirage 2000.

Don`t know about the other areas.

But, in term of education, I am very convinced nothing matches the USA at the university level. It is head and shoulders ahead of the rest of the world. Americans get all the Nobel prizes and invent everything. The smartest Americans are in academia and in business (the stupidest ones being in foreign policy).

I don`t know if Pakistan can or should copy France (or even USA). It needs to copy third-world countries that have made it big at the university level in particular fields. It could copy India for IT education, Russia(?) for pure sciences, etc.

Been running into a lot of software engineers from Iran. They are quite good (both guys and girls). Don`t know what the maulvis have set up there, but it seems to doing ok in the education department.

Irfan - excellent write up! Before I read this article, I did not realize that French have such intensive and well organized engineering program. I suppose the marketing of french culture is such that one thinks of it as a bastion of arts, social sciences, literature, fashion, and entertainment. But ENGINEERING??!!!

Now, not sure if you would be able to answer this, but i was interested in knowing how does French engineering program compares with that of German. Interestingly, the terminologies like ``german engineering``, ``german efficiency``, and ``german precision`` are much more popular in common folklore than ``french precision`` or ``french efficiency``.

I have been hearing more and more about Pakistani students going to French universities lately for engineering education - particularly Telecommunications engineering. I also know that Alcatel in Islamabad was at one time sending a lot of their engineers to France for training etc. Could you tell us if you have observed an explosion in Pakistani students at french universities? Is this in any part attributed to difficulties in getting US visa after Sept. 11? Or is it just that Pakistani students PREFERRED France over US for its better engineering program.

Lastly, a good education system also needs to be supported by a good surrounding industry where the graduates of these programs can find jobs and use their skills. Do you see any frustration in the French engineering labor market in that regard? From what I have heard, the French engineering industry over the 50 years or so has been dragged down by draconian unionized labor regulations.

Look forward to your comments.

Regards

Dear Irfan Hamid:

Your article is a breath of fresh air. I am pleased that our Pakistani students and teachers are getting exposed to the western institutes of higher learning and they feel excited about it. It`s not that they were not going to the western universities for higher learning in the past but then by and large the objective used to be to bag a Ph.D. and be done with it. The spark of excitement usually was not in evidence. A research degree is indeed the stepping stone for doing research; it`s not the end in itself. Real knowledge is generated in the western universities.

Mohammad Gill