Understanding Sanatana Dharma

Sameer # 23,

Been a long time. Where have you been?

I agree with your observations, and have felt that indians have always been made to feel defensive or inferior about their culture and practices by outsiders. That in my opinion is one of the prime reasons for the rise of hindutva. Most of these hindutvawadis want to shape hinduism like any other abrahamic faith. Shiv sainiks in mumbai try to have mass prayers every wednesday, kind of like sunday prayers and friday prayers by christians and muslims.
Monotheism is the fashion of todays world. All such label creations by abrahamic faiths have the purpose of attracting people to their fold and maintaining a distinct identity. Without this identity, they will gradually merge with other cultures and traditions, something which none of these faiths can digest. 2000 years ago india was a label free place in matters relating to spiritualism. I don`t think anyone in india then defined himself/herself by their personal faiths. This new label of identity was created only by the followers of abraham. Anyone without this label is deliberately separated by the followers in million ways. And I`m sure along with economic and millitary success of the monothesits, this has played a large part in creating this inferiority complex in hindus.
In modern india, part of this hindutva wadi fascism can be explained by our left leaning history books continuing the job of british in telling us that most of everything indian is mythological, inaccurate and shameful as compared to the glorious chapters of judeo-christian facts based faith. Believe it or not, our history books teach us the merits of british colonialism, by way of opening the doors for science and progressive outlook of the chritian west. What some hindutvawadis are trying now is to go to the other extreme in history books without looking at facts. And their are enough disgrutled indians who are realising how they have been robbed of a rightful honored image of themselves in this world by such leftists, only to fall too easily for the hindutva wadis.
Sorry for the digression, but i thought of giving you an indian`s perspective on the actual hinduism vs. hindutva.

Adios

kuarasach

[Scientific approach does not mean science is involved...]

That`s news to me! LOL!

[though their is a lot science in Hinduism. My remark was in general about Hinduism not the article.]

And so too should have been my remark. Appologies for any misunderstanding. Still, what you say is hard to swallow.

[Aritsts, astrologists, social scientists - all use some kind of scientific approach. ]

The word you are looking for is ``methodology``.

[The Hindu religion has calculated approach to different aspects of life. Even sex is researched in famous Kamasutra.]

They have a `caluclated` approach for astrology as well, but there`s no way in hell that should be considered `scientific`.

kuarasach

[Scientific approach does not mean science is involved...]

That`s news to me! LOL!

[though their is a lot science in Hinduism. My remark was in general about Hinduism not the article.]

And so too should have been my remark. Appologies for any misunderstanding. Still, what you say is hard to swallow.

[Aritsts, astrologists, social scientists - all use some kind of scientific approach. ]

The word you are looking for is ``methodology``.

[The Hindu religion has calculated approach to different aspects of life. Even sex is researched in famous Kamasutra.]

They have a `caluclated` approach for astrology as well, but there`s no way in hell that should be considered `scientific`.

omar_r_quraishi

Dear editor, kindly widen your horizons. It will surprise you but I knew very little of what Nazar ji has written in this article. Indian media sources do not have a very high religious content.

Contrast that with your own newspaper. Dawn`s opinion columns drip with praises of Islam almost every other week. You surely do not leave any need for anyone else to write about the religion.

dost,

``...anything is better than what one has rejected! ``

Don`t really think helenic thought was so `rejected` although their pantheon of `gods` may no longer be worshipped, the stories themselves live on and continue to be highly influential, esp in literature.

Quite frankly, Helenic thought is more entertaining and profound (imho)...very deep stuff and not nearly as wishy-washy as that ``sound of one hand clapping``, or endless cycles of this-and-that kind of vague philosophizing (for God`s sake, this has to be the most elaborate and verbose way to say `I really don`t know what the heck is going on!`).

Having said that, the cultural richness of India can`t be beat.

Sorry NHK u suck!

I need not to read ur story or article whatever u may want to call it....the fact remain that suck big time!!!

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Maharana #65

This is a very important comment, especially in understanding ``hindutva``.

[quote]
I agree with your observations, and have felt that indians have always been made to feel defensive or inferior about their culture and practices by outsiders.
[end-quote]

I have met Hindus who believe they are monotheists (in the abrahamanic sense), who think that the Bhagavat Gita is a sacred text (NOT! it is maybe a key text but as a hindu I have a right to debate its contents) like the Torah/Koran etc. All of this is confounded by the recent attempts of Shiv Sena/Bajrang Dal to create an islamized/talibanized hindu identity.

The dharma faith traditions or indic traditions have their own vocabulary and concepts. We should not use terms like ``idol worship``, ``monotheism`` or ``polytheism`` when discussing indic traditions. They are meaningless terms in this context, one might as well try to definitively establish the color of water.

Take forms of worship for example: our traditional term is ``sakar`` (with form) or ``nirakar`` (without form). Both are viewed as acceptable WITHOUT ANY PREJUDICE TOWARDS ONE OR THE OTHER. We should never accept derogatory or hateful descriptions like ``idol worship`` anymore than one should describe jews/muslims as ``fanatical monotheists``.

As moderm communication and literacy become more prevalent, I would propose that a system more like the IETF and its standard creation process be used to advance indic traditions. In other words, a modern equivalent of ``samvad`` debate traditions combined with room for different ``sampradaya`` be developed. This is a topic that deserves much more detailed amplification but even a cursory look at:

http://www.ietf.cnri.reston.va.us/structure.html

http://www.ietf.cnri.reston.va.us/rfc/rfc2026.txt

makes clear the ``one truth but many paths`` flavor of the organization. No wonder so many of the participants somehow turn out to be american buddhists (:-

# 69

I agree with vertex on this one. We shouldn`t throw the word `science` around loosely. That is not to negate very impressive scientific achievements by Indians. Only scientific claims for religions are very hard to swallow and even harder to sustain.

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Dost Mitter

I can understand how and why hindus are so insistent on re-writing (as opposed to re-interpretting) history that you had to bring in an irrelevant point into the discussion. But since you brought it up, how about this historically in-accurate and non-sensical comment made by NHK in this article when he says that ``Political Hinduism is a phenomenon only a few decades old in a history of 4000 years and is confined to only India.``

Logically speaking, and this logic is backed up by every similar incident in history in any part of the world and culture, the so called Political Hinduism must start on the date when Mohammad Bin Qasim set foot on the soil of sindh. From 710AD when MBQ arrived in sindh and 1050AD when Ghaznavi carried out his invasion towards East there must be a Hindu political activism. We also see that while Raja JayPal was carrying out his invasions of Afghanistan against Subuktageen (Ghaznavi`s father) and later against Ghaznavi, which is one of the core reasons why Ghaznavi invaded the territories that were later to be called Hindustan by Mughals, Jay pal had friendly relationship with the Muslim rulers of sindh and so did the clergy at Somanath. From that to Pirthvi Raj Chauhan there must be Hindu political activism that must have resulted in resistance. There has to be, when one`s religion, culture, history, places of worship are attacked and destroyed and there must be Hindu nationalism that must emerge in the people. As compared to that take sikhs, for example, who became a major thorn in the sides of Mughals within hundered years of the founding of that religion. My question is, why that so called Hindu nationalism did not emerge in the 900 years of Muslim rule and only emerged in the last few decades (as a matter of fact as british took control of the helm). Even jews, in the face of holocaust were able to establish effective resistance groups throughout Europe against Nazis. Why couldn`t Hindus do the same. So either NHK is lying and incorrect when he says that Hindu nationalism emerged in only last few decades ``This could be termed as yet another fall out of the two-nation theory`` as he puts it or Hindu Nationalism based on resistance to Muslim Occupation was always there. So if it was there, then where was it. And if it wasn`t there then probably Hindus did not feel a need to have a Nationalistic aspiration because their religion, culture, values and history were never threatened by Muslims in the last millenium. My question is why not Hindus felt threatened by the arrival of Muslims and on the other hand they only felt threatened when Muslims started the departure. Why political Hinduism now; why re-writing the history now?

ahmadmadani:
Welcome back. You bring a breath of fresh air to this forum. Interact more often if you can.

``I was fortunate to collect many english hindu religion, literature when was student in our oldest University in Karachi. In 1966 they decided to make way to get read of Hindu things. Being book worm assistant in library told me take all you want as we are throwing it.``

Such hatred! such disrespect for knowledge, if not for their own roots is mind boggling. If this is what the university of a tolerant place like Karachi did, one can only imagine what might have happened at places like Lahore and Peshawar. I knew that the islamisation of Pakistan started much earlier than the much-maligned Zia, but what you say is really astounding. Where did such hatred come from? One could understand if this had happened in 1947, but in 1966? Pakistanis like to quote how muslims preserved the knowledge base of Greeks during the medieval period and neither does the quran teach destruction of knowledge, so what`s the source of this boorish behaviour?

``I wonder on technical basis can hindus be called Kufr?``

I guess that some hindus could be and not the others. Among those who would be in the kufr category, for sure, would be the jains and the buddhists.

``I consider Ramayan is moral science and mahabharat is social science.``
An astute observation!

BTW can you or anyone else tell me the difference between monism and monotheism?

vertex:
I did not mean to downgrade the greek thought. I think that the western renaissance would have come earlier if Christianity had not intervened.


harimau:
``Since no further improvement was possible or needed in the grammar, they also declared it to be the language of the gods!``
...I really am wary of claims of perfection, whether wrt grammar or wrt holy scipture.

Looking at the title, I thought that Nazar has written about his visit to Santa Ana, California with his friend Dharma :-(

Please pass a barf bag.....

Nazar has tried to whitewash the satanic cow/rat/reptile worshipping cult. He glossed over ``Brahmin was made from Brahma`s head, Shudra from Brahma`s feet and Kapoor from Brahma`s arse`` dictum which legalizes aparthied in the society. He overlooked the cult santioned female infanticide, he bypassed all the filth and presents us with this rosy-rosy nicey-nicey picture of the most evil religous cult in mankind`s history.

But hey! there is some attraction in a `create-your-own-deity` or `deity-a-la-carte` belief system. Like the San Franciscan butt-boys are headed towards Hyderabad to worship the latest Madrasi Deity, The Sai Baba`s Linga!

P.S. Vertex, the cult is indeed scientific..... the best Indian brains in medical science are trying to discover the cures hidden in holy cow`s liquid output, and the geniuses at IIT are learing scientific vedic astrology !!

nhk: Just read your article. Very nice overview of hinduism, and ties different aspects together. I see no mention of the caste system, and how it evolved. E.g., I believe it is not mentioned in any of the scriptures, but was a tradition that developed as Aryans sought to establish their superiority over the locals whom they overran.

Ahmed Madani,

You write ``In 1966 they decided to make way to get read of Hindu things..``

This shows that the Pakistani state was implementing its ideology long before Zia.
The apologists on this site like Mantolives, tahmed etc rant at Zia. But you have
now confirmed that Zia was merely one more addition to the process that was
already underway in the ``land of the pure``.

Also, I am impressed that you know about the details of the ``Krauncha`` bird and
how it influenced Valmiki

Knowing about the Kafir is useful too :)

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