Understanding Sanatana Dharma

political hindutva (answering urstruely question)

political hindutva in india is actually fait accompli.
In all other places, advent of abrahamic faiths wiped-out existing civilizations, and made folks look towards Rome/Mecca/karbala for guidance.

Only in india, today 80% of people still consider themselves to have their original culture (or religion if you will) and seem relatively proud of it. so if the proof were to be in the pudding hindutva as a politics has always existed and has actually already won (in relative terms or defense). Offcourse, Christianity and Islam won really big elsewhere, but could not defeat hindutva in india.

(stuka is in the 20% in that he prefers Edith Piaf to jagjit :-).. just kidding )

satyamvada

``In #19 You commented about turkish invasions giving rise to bhakti etc.
All that is communist spin. Sanskrit was the link language for scholars by then.
Scholars all over India used to write the Sanskrit language but in the local script.
There are numerous (in millions) sanskrit palm-leaf manuscripts in local scripts
found all over India. There is now a program to preserve them ``

Which part is communist spin. That turkish invasion giving rise to bhakti is based on my own reading of bhaki-poet compositions, which talk about misery of common people, and clearly allocate a major source of pain as the turkis. There are also examples of how Brahmins of Paithans, who had continuous clout since Shalivahan times lost it soon after Devgiri losing to khilji, and then challenges arose from bhakti poets such as Gyaneshwar (Dynaneshwar) who wrote a treatise on Gita in Prakrit (and not Sanskrit). I am not disputing use of Devnagri (or modi) scripts for writing of Sanskrit. What I am pointing is that a lot of writing did get done in Prakrit during the medieval times, (and not much in Sanskrit). This has seemingly coincided with loss of political power of major indian kingdoms who supported brahmin (sanskrit) scholarship in major centers sush as Paithan, Kashi etc. With loss of funds and general anarchy followign political upheavals may have caused more de-centralised prakrit writings is my agument.

So dont call it communist spin, give a cogent argument how and where it seems wrong. Note that script and language are totally different things.

dost-mittar #94
``Why not accept this article as someone trying to understand another religion, especially one associated with the landmass of his country? ``

I do accept that and appreciate it. However my post was not negative, it was a factual one about where such efforts at understanding fit into the scheme of things today. Bauhat der ho chuki hai.

Sadna # 81 & Nooralain # 87

(The purpose of this article is what? )

I had written a footnote to article which I subsequently deleted. The footnote read `` The purpose of the article is neither to make followers of Dharma more devout or persuade non-believers to adopt it. The purpose is to understand a faith followed by 1/6 of the humanity``.

Frankly, I knew little about Dharma. Since than, many pre-fixated cobwebs are clear. To begin with, it was for my own understanding - and subsequently, I would it interesting and educative enough to share with others.

While the Pakistanis know considerable about the Abrahamic faiths, the is little knowledge about others.

Even on Chowk, no Indian interacter has written about Dharma with simple explanation. Or about other Dharmic faiths. Or Chrishtianity - just the basics. While we regularly do have considearable exchange on Islam.

For the purpose of trying to take this interact session off the usual beaten track/s, would some of us like to consider the option that traditions may be more truthful than history?

I mean, sorry about the crying in the rain and all that, but wouldn`t being a sort of Sufi Buddhist simply be more fun and satisfying too?

Dost Mittar, 94

“Why not accept this article as someone trying to understand another religion, especially one associated with the landmass of his country? As far as his reference to political hinduism, the author is not a stranger to chowk. He has frequently indicated his despair at how his country has been torn apart by faith-based politics, and that he does not wish the same thing to happen to India. Why not take him at his word?”

He is not “trying to understand`` anything. This “article” is a total crap, a cut and paste job devoid of any soul. “His country” is not torn apart by religion, it is torn apart with the likes of him whose “random thought” is a “Punjabi” and not a “Pakistani.” No thinking persson can “take him at his word” seriously because he is not an enlightened being. He’s narrow-minded and parochial. All he cares about is “Khalistan,” which nikki7777 very poignantly asks (post 95) “please tell me where khalistan is???...is it near tajikistan, uzbekistan,kazakhstan....???...someone told me that it`s in a suburb of toronto???..just curious, that`s all.I can ask, can`t i??...”

Dost, the problem of having met with someone with your ethnicity, having spend a “good” time with him, and having an affinity with him is that you lose all your objectivity...

Galib`s name was Assad Ullah Khan. He uses frequently and refers for himself for by that many times. In famous melodius Gazal sung by Kundanlal Saigal Galib laments the time old age has defeated him -Assad Ullah Khan.
Also in verse he says if I was not addicted to Alcohol people would have called him gentle man saint ``Wali samazate``. In another verses if I remember correct he reminds himself `` assad Ullah and pays respect to Mir `` Koi agale jamane mir bhi tha.``.Nobody gives justice as K L Saigal for Galib, he was born to sing those gazals.

nhk/100 - ````Even on Chowk, no Indian interacter has written about Dharma with simple explanation. Or about other Dharmic faiths. Or Christianity - just the basics. While we regularly do have considearable exchange on Islam. ````

I think the reason for this is that in India religion is largely not a Grand National Obsession and Reason To Exist. I venture to state that it is different in Pakistan, where everything is sought to be measured against Islam. (The truth that all of us measure and benchmark against a variety of standards like traditions, monetary wealth, education, travel, ``power``, ``success``, is, of course, something we all choose to ignore when it suits us, right?)

Therefore, a large number of exchanges on chowk have Pakistanis as well as Indians bringing in their interpretations of Islam as the ultimate defining clinching argument in favour or against most everything.

To many Indians & Pakistanis, I think, that is not just politically incorrect, but also in bad taste.

So, a question for you and other Pakistanis - do we see Pakistan moving away from an obsession with Islam, towards affluence?

[him gentle man saint ``Wali samazate``. In another verses if I remember correct he reminds himself `` assad Ullah and pays respect to Mir `` Koi agale jamane mir bhi tha.``]

HAHAHAHA.... and this mufukka claims to be a pakistani who can`t pronounce common urdu words like...`` samajhte and zamanay damn indians...;)

stuka #93
Actually, next time you eat your naan with korma remember that is part of your Central Asian and Persian heritage. Next time you `phero` a `nazar` you are doing something of Prakit and Arabic origin respectively :). Next time you listen to Indian music remember it incorporates your Persian/Turkish/Central Asian heritage. Next time you say `namak` remember thats your Persian heritage. Next time you cook in a kaDhaai, that is your Chinese heritage, I suspect.

btw, both Amir Khusro, who composed prolifically in KhaDi Boli and Ghalib were of Turkish descent. Hey, next time you hear Gurbani of the Guru Granth Sabib verses from Sant Kabir, remember that is part of your `Muslim` heritage, though Muslims disown him :).

And hey, Muslim Indians are part of your Indian heritage no?

nazarhayatkhan
Re the 1966 Supreme Court definition of Hindu faith, thanks for mentioning it, I did not know that.

Actually, some people think that the whole mischief goes back even earlier to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights says
``Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.``

There is a point of view that this statement implicitly and explicitly endorses the Western view that a person can subscribe to only one religious tradition at a time, and not to multiple religious traditions. That the right of a person to subscribe to one religious tradition is a universal right, not his right to adhere to more than one religious tradition.

India has been at the cusp of West and East and like in Africa, S.American and Asia, different faith traditions have always overlapped, not only within `Hinduism` but between different faith traditions in Hinduism and those in Jainism, Buddhism, Sikhism and Islam, as well as the older, more native faiths of the subcontinent.

For India, therefore, it can be argued that the essentially Western/Semitic concept of adherence to only one religious tradition and requirement to draw religious boundaries around communities and their diverse religious practices has proven to be very disruptive and divisive.

The definition of Hindus and Hinduism being problematic is thus only one manifestation of an Eastern mindset about religion meeting the Western mindset.

Tehmed32 # 77

(I see no mention of the caste system, and how it evolved. E.g., ...)

Cast System was not ordained by Scriptures. In fact, nothing is Ordained by Scriptures as mandatory. Even worship is vonluntary. Tantric school has rejected it. Cast System is mentioned in the article.

It had more to do with culture - and it continued in Muslim culture which defined it with skills. In villages, even now people are known as Mochees, Dartkhan, Taeli, Machee etc.

The present Punjab & Sind are the descendents of the Vedic Civilization as some one pointed out in jest that Pakistan should be renamed as the Vedic Republic of Pakistan.

Godot # 80

(Re this article: perform a “research,” look up an encyclopedia, cut and paste, put something together and call it “an article.” )

No encycolpedia gives you a cut-and-paste in 2000 words on Dharma. One has to understand, get the gist and write. That I guess is the normal way.

I knew it could be explosive subject so I had to doubly check the facts. I added two words from my understanding - Salvation & Brahmanism. They were immediately pointed out by the Interacters.

The last two Paras have my own opinion as well - the second last has been a bit debated. While surprisingly, no one has commented on the last one.

Veeresh # 104

( think the reason for this is that in India religion is largely not a Grand National Obsession and Reason To Exist. I venture to state that it is different in Pakistan, where everything is sought to be measured against Islam...)

I agree that there is an obsession about religion in Pakistan. I hope it does not become so in India or any other country for that matter.

But a little knowledge about others is good for a healthy dialouge. And a poor knowledge can be quite a disadvantage.

NHK

Sadna # 106

I agree. As I said the Supreme Court gave a very confining definition of Dharma contrary to the very spirit of Dharma.

I think the core philosophy of Dharma and the concept of Brahman (not Brahmin) is pretty much universal in character - and is broad and wide enough to accomodate the basic human need of spirtuality.

Ali_1 abe ramlal ki aulad apne baap ko hee gaali bak raha hae